Cat's - alpha males?

Thread view:

Enable EMail Alerts

Start New Thread

Thread rating:

Todd Copeland - 21 Dec 2003 13:39 GMT

I'm wondering if cats exhibit the same trait in dogs which creates an alpha
male in the group. The reason why I'm asking is when I play with my cat and
he's getting a little rough I tell him "no" or I say "hey, hey, hey". I'm
not yelling, just saying the words. I've done it enough to where he knows
that I want him to stop biting that hard (or at least to stop biting). The
problem is that he then, well... gets an attitude that seems to say "don't
tell me what to do". After that he just stops and looks at me _real_ hard.
Then he just waits for the right moment (if I turn my back, it's the perfect
moment), runs, and jumps at me. He usually grabs my leg and bite me really
hard. One bite, then he runs away and it's all over. That is, we are friends
again like it never happened. I know when he is thinking in this "attack"
mode and sometimes I let him jump and then I move before he hits me. Or I'll
not give him a shot at me long enough and his mood will pass (just a minute
or two). Last night I was laying in bed when he got mad at me. I turned to
go to sleep and he bit the back of my head. Ouch.

The only thing I can think of is that he's telling me that he's calling the
shots, not me. It's a simple "I'll show you who's tougher/boss", then it's
back to being friends like it never happen. My friend had a technique that
worked _great_ with his dog. When his dog did something like this, he would
hold the dog down on the ground for several minutes until the dog stop
trying to get away. It showed the dog that his owner was the alpha male and
had control. The dog was not hurt whatsoever, just prevented from moving to
much for about 1 minute. I've kind of tried this with my cat (I feel stupid
admitting it) thinking that it might be the same thing. I've only done it 3
times in the past several months but he still gets in his moods. This only
happens when we are playing and I say something that he understands to mean
to stop. If I tell him no because he's someplace he should not be or
something else, he has no problem with it. This is why I was thinking it was
an alpha male thing, as playing could be a sign of dominance.

Am I doing the right thing? Can I try something else? Is it just another
weird trait? Thanks

Reply to this Message

J_Harmeson - 21 Dec 2003 15:00 GMT

Sounds like a great cat and friend as well. IMHO I would do the same as
what you are doing, or your friend did with the dog, but every time the
cat does what you don't want it to do hold the cat down on the floor but
look into the eye's and talk to him, tell him No , Don't do that, I'll
take away your treats etc. Hey I know the cat will not understand what
you say but when I had problems with my cat that's what I did, I even
picked him up and cradled him in my arms like a baby, I lowered his head
a little, looked him in the eye and talked to him. After I did ether one
of those I would reward him with a good pet or combing, along with
verbal rewards like Good Cat or that was Good Tigg etc. We both had to
adjust and we now have a great time living together. Hope this helps.
Cheers.

Reply to this Message

Orchid - 21 Dec 2003 21:51 GMT

>I'm wondering if cats exhibit the same trait in dogs which creates an alpha
>male in the group.

Cats are not little dogs. :) I'm a trainer and behaviourist
for both cats and dogs. In a nutshell -- dogs are social hunters and
social animals, and cats are solitary hunters and social animals. It
is the 'social hunters' part that gives the canine social structure
its rigid heirarchy. Cats, instead, form cliques with other cats they
like. They avoid cats they don't like, or who hurt them.

>The reason why I'm asking is when I play with my cat and
>he's getting a little rough I tell him "no" or I say "hey, hey, hey". I'm
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>or two). Last night I was laying in bed when he got mad at me. I turned to
>go to sleep and he bit the back of my head. Ouch.

When you say 'playing with him', do you mean wrestling with
him with your hand? Or using a cat teaser? Or what? How old was he
when you got him?
Often, cats that were separated from their moms and
littermates too young (before 12-16 weeks) never learned how to
inhibit their bites. So, they tend to bite too hard. Also, how old
is he right now? Is he neutered? These are all factors is this sort
of behaviour.

>The only thing I can think of is that he's telling me that he's calling the
>shots, not me. It's a simple "I'll show you who's tougher/boss", then it's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>trying to get away. It showed the dog that his owner was the alpha male and
>had control.

Oh dear god, he alpha rolls his dog. Damn the Monks of New
Skete. Okay. Alpha rolling and scruff shaking are a BAD IDEA. Both
of those manuevers are the opening steps to a dogfight, and many dogs
react to them by accepting your challenge. Many, many dog owners have
gotten their faces torn into by a dog they're trying to alpha roll.
Even the Monks have taken it out their 'training books' at this point,
as too many people have been hurt and too many dogs have had their
temperaments ruined by this kind of treatment.
Your friend is lucky.

>The dog was not hurt whatsoever, just prevented from moving to
>much for about 1 minute. I've kind of tried this with my cat (I feel stupid
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>something else, he has no problem with it. This is why I was thinking it was
>an alpha male thing, as playing could be a sign of dominance.

Cats are not dogs. They do not play as a dominance exercise,
they play because they like each other. Cats have a loose, shifting
social heirarchy, and the only thing becoming 'more dominant' to your
cat will do is make your cat avoid you.
Finally, he doesn't understand that you're saying something to
mean stop. If he bites you and it hurts, squeal like a hurt kitten
and stop playing with him. If he comes after you again, do the same
thing. This tells him 'I don't like that, please stop', and he
eventually won't do it at all.

>Am I doing the right thing? Can I try something else? Is it just another
>weird trait? Thanks

Orchid
See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage
Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid

Reply to this Message

Todd Copeland - 24 Dec 2003 00:00 GMT

> >moment), runs, and jumps at me. He usually grabs my leg and bite me really
> >hard. One bite, then he runs away and it's all over. That is, we are friends
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> is he right now? Is he neutered? These are all factors is this sort
> of behaviour.

Yes, wrestling with him. If I'm using a sock or something else he might paw
at it with his claws when it starts get get away. If I'm using my hand he's
_never_ used his claws. He will kick me with his hind legs but again never
uses his claws. So I'm sure he knows the difference. He also does not start
out biting me hard and most of the time he continues to bit softly but
sometimes I think he gets a little wound up and forgets. This is when I tell
him no. I got him when he was 8 weeks old. I read that kittens need to learn
about biting and when playing with other kittens they might get bit back if
they bite too hard. While I'm certain he understands this, I'm just trying
to curb him a little when he gets a little wound up. He's about 1 year and a
few months right now. Still young, I know. He's neutered.

> >The only thing I can think of is that he's telling me that he's calling the
> >shots, not me. It's a simple "I'll show you who's tougher/boss", then it's
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> temperaments ruined by this kind of treatment.
> Your friend is lucky.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing. He puts his arms around
the dog from behind and olds the dogs legs. The dog is basically in a
natural laying postition, he just can't get up. The dog is perfectly
comforatable. He talks to the dog in a soothing voice and keeps the dog in
this position until the dog stops trying to get up. It lasts about 30
seconds. I's never heard or seen it before but from what I saw it worked and
worked well. Again, I know nothing more then I saw with this one dog. I have
no doubt that this only is advisable with certain breads of dogs. I don't
see it being a good idea with an older, unfamilure dog or something like a
Rotwieler.

> >The dog was not hurt whatsoever, just prevented from moving to
> >much for about 1 minute. I've kind of tried this with my cat (I feel stupid
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> thing. This tells him 'I don't like that, please stop', and he
> eventually won't do it at all.

He does know that he's to stop, as now if I just simply say "hey, hey, hey"
not any louder, but in a raised pitch, he stops. If he then gets into one of
his moods he will then just stare me down and wait until he's got a clear
pounce at me. He will bite me quick, hard, and then take off running. I've
not done anything to harm him so I think this is just his way of saying
"don't tell me what not to do... I was having fun". Most of the time I'll
just laugh when I see him start to act this way. I back up and say "bring it
on.." (and laugh). He usually moves close for the pounce and I walk behind
him. He keeps walking around as well as it's like a little stand off. If I
avoid him for about a minute he''' calm down and it's like nothing happen.
Sometimes I'll let him jump and move out of the way. He lands and then it's
out of his system. Don't get me wrong, he only does this under the
above-mentioned situations. We get along like two peas in a pod. He lets me
pick him up and hold him upside down like a baby all the time He's 15lbs...
he likes to be carried :). He always wants to be in the same area of the
house that I'm in. At night he goes off to sleep but at 7am he's in my room
and on the bed. If I don't get up by 7:30, he starts walking across the bed
and "accidently"steps on me (I'll tell you... he knows what he's doing). He
purs _all the time_. Even if I just look at him. Oh, and he LOVES the "kitty
massage" (kneeding the skin on his back). If he's standing, he just falls
over.

I'm guessing that he'll out grow his whole "I'm the boss" routine after a
short while, esp. as he gets older.

Reply to this Message

Gee - 28 Dec 2003 19:01 GMT

"Orchid" <neko@ascendancy.net> wrote in message

Cats, instead, form cliques with other cats they

> like. They avoid cats they don't like, or who hurt them.

Yeap I can vouch for that one. When Charlie moved himself in (he was a
stray) he was obviously desperate for a company both human and feline. But
his idea of feline mingling was a lot of chasing the other cat, pouncing on
it and biting it very hard. I know it was a game, and not a real cat fight.
But my other 3 didn;t like this biting game and turned on him quickly.
Shadow showed him in no uncertain terms that he will NEVER mess with her
like that again, and bit the crap out of him for real :) Tiara who is the
most placid cat ever, eventually had enough and stood up to him too. Charlie
has ever since(2 years) avoided both of them, and is terrified of Shadow. He
will rather jump over obstacles to get from A to B, then pass by her. They
don;t fight of course, but they do avoid each other as much as possible.

> Cats are not dogs. They do not play as a dominance exercise,
> they play because they like each other. Cats have a loose, shifting
> social heirarchy, and the only thing becoming 'more dominant' to your
> cat will do is make your cat avoid you.

I agree. Love (and good food) is the only thing that keep a cat coming back
to you. If you mistreat a cat(in her/his opinion) it will find another home.
Number one is the most important thing in cats life. Human is however the
most important thing in dogs life-no matter how badly treated-unfortunately.

> Finally, he doesn't understand that you're saying something to
> mean stop. If he bites you and it hurts, squeal like a hurt kitten
> and stop playing with him. If he comes after you again, do the same
> thing. This tells him 'I don't like that, please stop', and he
> eventually won't do it at all.

I cannot recommend this method more. I have trained 6 cats out of biting
with this squealing method. I usually scream as loud as possible in as high
pitched voice as possible (so my neighbours probably think I am being
murdered or something :) But my cats really hate that sound and would always
stop, look at me like "wow, easy I'm not THAT ruff with you" and "do you not
know how sensitive my hearing is! I don;t like your screams". Cat will soon
create a negative association with biting=screaming - not pleasant. Each cat
took less then a week to cure from biting habit, never to use it again. You
just must make sure your squeal or scream EVERY time cat bites you, no
matter how painless that particular bite is, and weather it's one of those
fighting bites or just a gentle chewing on your fingers. Biting is not
allowed, full stop.

Good luck.

Gee

Reply to this Message