Cat Forum / General Topics / December 2006
Where to get pets microchip'ed with international chips?
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dye - 17 Jul 2006 17:03 GMT A friend is moving to europe, and for entry is required to have the pets implanted with an RFID microchip. However, it seems there are incompatibilites between the chips in the US vs. europe.
Where in the US (Chicago) would one get this done, or procure the required chips (ISO 11784, or ISO 11785)? My vet didn't know, but if I could purchase injectable chips would perform the insertion.
Thanks in advance,
--Ken
 Signature Ken R. Dye an optimist is a guy | Chicago, Illinois that has never had | www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8746 much experience | dye1146 at comcast dot net archy |
Chuck Grempu - 17 Jul 2006 17:16 GMT >A friend is moving to europe, and for entry is required to have > the pets implanted with an RFID microchip. However, it seems there [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > --Ken Europe requires all American Pets to be Stuffed.
Simple prevention of diseases.
So get your little cute poochie Stuffed with pine woodchips now, donate the meat to Ho Lin Restaurant in Hillsdale
Upscale - 17 Jul 2006 18:30 GMT "dye" <dye@c-67-167-10-235.hsd1.il.comcast.net> wrote in message
> A friend is moving to europe, and for entry is required to have > the pets implanted with an RFID microchip. However, it seems there > are incompatibilites between the chips in the US vs. europe. Not sure what or how many incompatibilities there are between chips, but there can't be that much. There was a story on the news a few months back about a cat that got into a shipping container in the US and wound up in France where it was identified by its chip. Cat was sent back to its grateful owners via first class airfare.
Barnabas Collins - 17 Jul 2006 20:43 GMT >"dye" <dye@c-67-167-10-235.hsd1.il.comcast.net> wrote in message >> A friend is moving to europe, and for entry is required to have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >France where it was identified by its chip. Cat was sent back to its >grateful owners via first class airfare. My understanding is there are at eight different chips in use in the US, none are compatible with the others.
I would add though none of the chips used in cats are RFID microchips. RFID chips are mainly used for identifying inventory, tracking items shipped, etc.
Brian Merchant - 18 Jul 2006 00:02 GMT In the borning days of the third millennium, Barnabas Collins wrote:
>I would add though none of the chips used in cats are RFID microchips. >RFID chips are mainly used for identifying inventory, tracking items >shipped, etc. RFID stands for Radio Frequency IDentification. Everything from the chips they put in pets to the badges you can wave in front of a door for access use RFID. It's a generic term. -- Brian Merchant
Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept them from enjoying it. --Father Joe Breighner, Country Roads
Barnabas Collins - 18 Jul 2006 21:41 GMT >In the borning days of the third millennium, Barnabas Collins wrote: >>I would add though none of the chips used in cats are RFID microchips. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >chips they put in pets to the badges you can wave in front of a door for >access use RFID. It's a generic term. But the ones they use in pets are not RFID. RRIDs put out a signal which pet chips don't. You need a scanner for the pet chips.
Two completely different technologies.
Pet chips don't use radio waves where RFID does.
Brian Merchant - 18 Jul 2006 22:38 GMT In the borning days of the third millennium, Barnabas Collins wrote:
>>In the borning days of the third millennium, Barnabas Collins wrote: >>>I would add though none of the chips used in cats are RFID microchips. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >But the ones they use in pets are not RFID. RRIDs put out a signal >which pet chips don't. You need a scanner for the pet chips. You need a scanner for RFID chips, too. They don't have their own power source, which is why they are so small and last so long. The scanner emits an electric field which is just strong enough to power the chip, which responds with its ID.
>Two completely different technologies. Actually, they are the exact same technology. Google "pet RFID" for many examples. For instance:
http://www.pet-id.net/whatispetid.htm
or
http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/169
But http://www.whynot.net/ideas/1619 makes it sound like they are two different things. It may be that he's talking about a particular type of RFID, since there are a number of incompatible systems out there. We're still in the VHS/Betamax phase of this technology.
Of course, you'll also find a lot of negative opinions and speculation about RFID chips since they are one of the current targets of the tinfoil hat crowd.
>Pet chips don't use radio waves where RFID does. They use radio waves, they just can't transmit them without the power provided by the scanner. -- Brian Merchant
Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept them from enjoying it. --Father Joe Breighner, Country Roads
Barnabas Collins - 19 Jul 2006 18:42 GMT >Of course, you'll also find a lot of negative opinions and speculation about >RFID chips since they are one of the current targets of the tinfoil hat >crowd. One of the concerns is the invasion of privacy. (Lets be blunt here folks....you have no privacy now. When you do to work/the store/ the movies/etc. you're on serveliance TV 300+ times a day. That little fact came out in the wake of the London Subway bombing. Add in the ability to track you cell phone calls, the tracking of your credit cards/atm cards, the trasnponder for tolls on yuor car, etc. and you've got essentialy no privacy now. Add in that alot of parents in the wake of the child murders/ molestations want to "chip" their kids the same way they chip their pets and you're privacy is eroded more.
There are cell phones that let you track where your kids are, get camera images from where your kids, etc.
But then all this won't matter. 20+ - 30+ years from now if they want to find you, they will enter your name in a computer, the computer will track down your DNA from every stair rail you touched, every door you opened, etc. You won't need an id card/credit card/etc.
Todd H. - 19 Jul 2006 04:06 GMT > But the ones they use in pets are not RFID. RRIDs put out a signal > which pet chips don't. You need a scanner for the pet chips. > > Two completely different technologies. You are very wrong.
> Pet chips don't use radio waves where RFID does. How the heck do you think the info is tranmitted across the skin if not RF? Telekenesis? Think about it.
Scanners for RFID's emit RF to energize the chips (chips include a rectifier to convert the RF energy to power up the chip) and a transmitter on the chip is activated to transmit a modulated digital bitstream to a radio receiver in the scanner.
-- Todd H. http://www.toddh.net/
Don Taylor - 19 Jul 2006 09:00 GMT >> But the ones they use in pets are not RFID. RRIDs put out a signal >> which pet chips don't. You need a scanner for the pet chips. >> >> Two completely different technologies.
>You are very wrong.
>> Pet chips don't use radio waves where RFID does.
>How the heck do you think the info is tranmitted across the skin if >not RF? Telekenesis? Think about it.
>Scanners for RFID's emit RF to energize the chips (chips include a >rectifier to convert the RF energy to power up the chip) and a >transmitter on the chip is activated to transmit a modulated digital >bitstream to a radio receiver in the scanner. Since someone just asked me how he could obtain an RFID reader for the several RFID implanted devices he has (none including pets or maybe he didn't mention that) and I've spent a few days reading this stuff maybe I can confuse things even more here.
As one trade magazine put it, there is so much flexibility in RFID implementation that there is almost no standardization and no economy from having everyone use the same thing.
RFID can, depending on what they design into it, have a range from a few centimeters to miles. The companies are hoping this is going to be the barcode of the new millenium and be put into everything from shoes to pill bottles to cars to pets to ups packages to credit cards to railroad cars.
RFID can use any one of 4-6 different frequency ranges. And it can use any number of different chip company's incompatible protocols, even if using the same frequency.
This was what caused an outcry when one company had been in the pet RFID business for a while, a second company wanted some of the business, introduced incompatible RFID devices and they couldn't be read by the previous reader. That meant forcing vets to buy another reader or having a pet not come up with a code if you checked with the "wrong" reader.
And then there are even battery powered RFID and non-battery powered (passive) RFID devices. I'm thinking the battery powered ones are used for much longer range applications.
Finally there are read-only devices or there are read-write devices. For read-only the code is in them, you can read it out, that is it. For the are read-write ones they have memory inside that can be updated, sometimes tens of thousands or even millions of bits and growing. I think this is where the "smart card" people want you to end up going.
However, for pets I believe these are no battery read only devices and the only variation are the two companies that are in the business with the incompatible RFID chips/readers, unless there was enough backlash that they were finally forced to make compatible parts and/or readers. But I believe both of these required a radio signal sent to the part that then provided the stimulus to get the code back from inside the part. I haven't tracked down whether the two companies were using different frequencies or just incompatible chips/readers.
Ivor Jones - 19 Jul 2006 11:21 GMT [snip]
> However, for pets I believe these are no battery read only > devices and the only variation are the two companies that [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > two companies were using different frequencies or just > incompatible chips/readers. If it helps, I volunteer for Cats Protection in the UK (www.cats.org.uk) and this is the system we use for all the cats that are homed from us. All of our shelters and most vets have scanners that will read this type of chip.
www.identichip.co.uk (click on the "pet owners" link, the others are password protected).
Ivor
Barnabas Collins - 19 Jul 2006 18:50 GMT >Since someone just asked me how he could obtain an RFID reader >for the several RFID implanted devices he has (none including [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >RFID implementation that there is almost no standardization and >no economy from having everyone use the same thing. I did a little searching to find out how much an RFID reader is......$3,526.16
If I were a vet/animal shelter/etc. i'd stick with the one I have now until they become standardized.
Don Taylor - 19 Jul 2006 22:30 GMT >>Since someone just asked me how he could obtain an RFID reader >>for the several RFID implanted devices he has (none including [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >>RFID implementation that there is almost no standardization and >>no economy from having everyone use the same thing.
>I did a little searching to find out how much an RFID >reader is......$3,526.16 There are little prototype boards, not the sort of thing an inexperienced person would know what to do with, for under $100 that can read one frequency/mfgr/model chip.
There are some handheld scanners that can read one frequency/ mfgr/model chip for $400-$600.
And the price goes up from there.
>If I were a vet/animal shelter/etc. i'd stick with the one >I have now until they become standardized. The problem pet owners had was they might go to vet A, get RFID chip brand X put in fluffy, fluffy gets lost, found by someone who takes this unknown cat to vet B, this vet has RFID chip brand Y scanner, scans fluffy, comes up with nothing because brand Y can't detect or read brand X chips, and vice versa. That was what made people furious. All this was described in the pet magazines a while back.
But hey, companies are out there to make a profit and introducing incompatible products is almost always the path to that.
I was approached by a person asking whether it would be possible to sell a scanner that would read most common RFID chips, not necessarily in pets, and could this be done for under $200, maybe $150, even possibly $100.
That is only 1/3 to 1/4 the price of dedicated scanners and by cutting a bunch of corners might be possible BUT being able to scan "most common" chips makes this much more challenging and potentially even impossible at any implausible price. I don't know yet.
If it worked then you could read fluffy, read your smart card, maybe even see if you are carrying any other RFID chips you don't even know about.
Upscale - 20 Jul 2006 00:09 GMT "Don Taylor" <dont@agora.rdrop.com> wrote in message
> cutting a bunch of corners might be possible BUT being able to > scan "most common" chips makes this much more challenging and > potentially even impossible at any implausible price. I don't > know yet. I can sell you a tricorder cheap. Bought it from some guy selling the most recent electronics out the back of a white van. He promised me that it was the super duper version capable of reading anything. Naturally, I bought it right away. Only $800.00. I'll make that money back right quick when I get my share of the diamond mine estate that my African lawyer is executing.
Barnabas Collins - 20 Jul 2006 17:06 GMT >I can sell you a tricorder cheap. Bought it from some guy selling the most >recent electronics out the back of a white van. He promised me that it was >the super duper version capable of reading anything. Naturally, I bought it >right away. Only $800.00. I'll make that money back right quick when I get >my share of the diamond mine estate that my African lawyer is executing. Did the guy selling it have pointed ears?
OdorDestroyer.com - 05 Dec 2006 17:05 GMT Don,
Obviously you have done a bit of research on the issue. I wrote an article on the subject a few years back. It's gotten hot again, and I'm very excited that we recently had a real veterinarian (Dr. Tracy DewHirst DVM) chime in. I'd love to hear what your opinions on my article are. Here's the info:
Should I microchip my pet? http://www.odordestroyer.com/newsblog/should-i-microchip-my-pet-4/
Philip
----------------------------- http://www.OdorDestroyer.com Powerful pet odor removers for powerful pet odors.
> Since someone just asked me how he could obtain an RFID reader > for the several RFID implanted devices he has (none including [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > two companies were using different frequencies or just > incompatible chips/readers.
 Signature ----------------------------- http://www.OdorDestroyer.com Powerful pet odor removers for powerful pet odors.
dye - 21 Jul 2006 21:53 GMT >A friend is moving to europe, and for entry is required to have >the pets implanted with an RFID microchip. However, it seems there [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >chips (ISO 11784, or ISO 11785)? My vet didn't know, but if I >could purchase injectable chips would perform the insertion. FYI, most Banfield (the one in Skokie is where I went, they operate in the PetSmart on Touhy) pet hospitals will insert BOTH chips.
They were also APHIS certified, so able to prepare the Euro Union health certificate that was required by both the EC as well as the USDA.
--Ken
 Signature Ken R. Dye an optimist is a guy | Chicago, Illinois that has never had | www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/8746 much experience | dye1146 at comcast dot net archy |
Dan - 07 Aug 2006 18:10 GMT Ask at the U.S. Naval Station (Great Lakes) veterinary services.
>A friend is moving to europe, and for entry is required to have > the pets implanted with an RFID microchip. However, it seems there [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > | > dye1146 at comcast dot net archy
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