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Cat Forum / General Topics / July 2006dead kittens
My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, my son started yelling that the kittens were dead. Three of them were. They were perfectly healthy and the mother was very attentive. We had a foster child in the home and I am certain he killed them. How could these kittens have died otherwise? There was no blood but they looked very skinny. We think the kittens were either smothered or choked. Would the mother have smothered her kittens? Kim Maybe one but not 3 not for a attentive mother If you believe that the child did it you can autopsy done on the kittens. If he or she did do it serious counseling is needed it is proven that serial killers and other violent criminals all abuse small animals when they were younger and through out there lives Till you find out the truth I would take the mother cat and the surviving kittens elsewhere and any other animals you might have in the house If you have valid reason to believe the child did do this it is time to say out to the foster child and have the child services involved to help > My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, > my [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Kim I have to totally agree with Matthew's reply. The link between the abuse of animals and violent psychopathic behaviour in adults has been indisputably proven. Many enlightened communities now have in place "cross reporting" where veterinarians, if asked to treat animals that they suspect have been injured deliberately/cruelly, will communicate their suspicions to the relevant Welfare bodies as this is nearly always an indicator of child abuse or domestic violence in all its horrible forms. Notify child services immediately and tell them of your concern !....... if you want to help this child, and protect innocent animals, other children, and society in general in years to come, this child needs treatment NOW. ~Roberta~ > Maybe one but not 3 not for a attentive mother > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >> >> Kim >I have to totally agree with Matthew's reply. > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > ~Roberta~ I agree *if the allegations are true* or even if there is *good reason* to believe they are true. Unfortunately, only a necropsy (autopsy) could have confirmed that, and the OP did not get one. As it is, this could be a traumatising situation for the child if the claims are unfounded, and it is equally untenable to think of a child who may have committed this atrocity and yet goes untreated. MaryL Were all 4 skinny or just the 3 dead ones? >Were all 4 skinny or just the 3 dead ones? The OP doesn't say how old the kittens were but very young kittens by nature are very skinny. In fact my 10 month old kitten now is very long but is still very skinny. All the growth has been in length, not width. Also skinney is a relative term. My kitten is skinny compared to my very much overweight female cat. Finally I would point out the cat may be skinny due to the natural unlimited energy the kitten is endowed with. My current kitten eats a ton of food and probably burns all the calories off in a matter of a couple of hours. >I have to totally agree with Matthew's reply. > >The link between the abuse of animals and violent psychopathic behaviour in >adults has been indisputably proven. That may be true but be 100% positive before you label this foster child a killer. >Many enlightened communities now have in place "cross reporting" where >veterinarians, if asked to treat animals that they suspect have been injured >deliberately/cruelly, will communicate their suspicions to the relevant >Welfare bodies as this is nearly always an indicator of child abuse or >domestic violence in all its horrible forms. Doctors/Teachers/etc. are considered here by the law to be "mandated reporters" i.e. if they suspect abuse they must report it to authorities. I'm not sure veteranarians fall under that law. Look into the cause of death before going further. >Notify child services immediately and tell them of your concern !....... if >you want to help this child, and protect innocent animals, other children, >and society in general in years to come, this child needs treatment NOW. But remember the child is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Please don't pursue it until you're 1,000 % sure the child is guilty. I don't like animal abuse but I also don't want this kid ruined for life by false charges when the cause of death was something else. >~Roberta~ > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] >>> >>> Kim >My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, my >son started yelling that the kittens were dead. Three of them were. They [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Kim > My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, > my [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Kim THEY WERE DEVOURED BY FEKLAAR, WHO IS MIGHTY! >RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAR!< >My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, my >son started yelling that the kittens were dead. Three of them were. They [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Kim Did you have an autopsy done? A number of years ago I found one of my cats dead at 3am in the morning. I had an autopsy done to be sure it wasn't something that could affect my other cats. The cause of death apperently was a bad heart. This cat never had the sense to stop when it got tired. I would add there are hundreds of ways the cats could have died, i'd want evidence before blaming the foster child. >My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, my >son started yelling that the kittens were dead. Three of them were. They [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Kim I would add what proof do you have that the foster child did it? I'm not sure where you're located i'd have an autopsy done and only if you're very certain i'd approach CPS/DSS with your concerns. As another poster pointed out many a serial killer started out by killing animals. But i'd suggest being positive it was the foster child first before you express this concern to anyone. The last thing you want to do is doom this kid to spend the rest of his childhood in foster care with no hope of ever being adopted and falling through the cracks when the age of 18 is reached. Finally I would talk to someone who knows children, don't ever assume that a social worker at DSS/CPS knows what they are doing. (Around here the qualification to be a social worker is an associates degree. The associates degree can be in zoology but that qualifies them to determine what is best for kids.) Please tread carefully in this. You don't want to protect a child who killed animals, but at the same time you don't want to mark an innocent child as a killer. >>My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, >>my [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > who killed animals, but at the same time you don't want to > mark an innocent child as a killer. Exactly right! I was very concerned about all these factors when I read that the OP simply "assumed" that the foster child killed the kittens. No autopsy was performed, and there apparently was no other evidence (unless there is something in the background of the child that would further substantiate the conslusion). There is some credence for the belief in that it is unusual for all 3 kittens to die in such a period of time, but even that is not beyond belief. Little kittens can be very fragile, and I don't know if they had been evaluated by a vet. MaryL MaryL >>>My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, >>>my [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >MaryL I want to thank everyone for responding. To answer some questions, the kittens were one month old. When I wrote skinny I meant really skinny. Like they had starved to death. I don't know how long it would take for them to look like from not eating but they were perfectly healthy only days before. We also don't know how long they were dead. We were leaving them alone and just looking at them. We didn't notice anything unusual. They always looked like they were sleeping. The last kitten was not skinny and is very healthy. We watched her and the child very carefully so that nothing would happen to her. The child is gone and the county social worker is aware of my opinion and so is the foster care agency. I also told them that I believe the child is a sociopath in the making and that he needs serious help. This child also lied all the time, and I mean all the time, stole and cheated. Before I spoke to anyone I looked up sociopath. What is interesting is that the child stayed up all night the night before he was leaving. So did I. I believe that he wanted to kill the last kitten. He wasn't going to steal anything because I had told him that I would be searching all of his belongings before he left and I did. He got up several times that night but I was always right there. Thankyou again. Make sure you take mother cat and kitten into the vet for a good check up just in case I am sorry about what happened but you know the situation better than anyone since you are there and was able to observe the child and knew what the social situation was >>>>My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, >>>>my [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > right > there. Thankyou again. >I want to thank everyone for responding. To answer some questions, the >kittens were one month old. When I wrote skinny I meant really skinny. Like >they had starved to death. Againt that has to be taken in context. When I first got my current kitten he was extremely skinney. He is now still skinney but has grown very long. I suspect that in his first two months prior to my getting him that he was the runt of the litter, so he probably didn't eat very much. >and so is the foster care agency. I also told them that I believe the child >is a sociopath in the making and that he needs serious help. This child also [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >he left and I did. He got up several times that night but I was always right >there. Thankyou again. You know, as someone who has had a number of foster kids over the years i'd be hesitant to jump to conclusions on this. There are a number of scenarios that could explain the child, some of which may have nothing to do with animal abuse. Also I would take all the actions of the child with a large grain of salt and look closely at the context. So the child lied. Compare that to all the adults who told the child they loved him and then he was ripped out of their house and thrown in with strangers. Or maybe he was sent to a group home where he was abused/neglected. I've had foster kids who didn't know how to brush their teeth but by golly they could tell you exactly how to prepare a crack pipe. Give the child the benefit of the doubt and bring your concerns to a qualified child psychologist, not to the useless social workers at DSS/CPS. > The child is gone and the county social worker is aware of my opinion >and so is the foster care agency. One of the thinks i've found with social workers and kids in foster care is they have this nasty habbit of moving kids from foster home to foster home so they can't bond with anyone. So you have a very messed up child who grows up unable to bond to anyone. It's an incredibly messed up system. >There is some credence for the belief in that >it is unusual for all 3 kittens to die in such a period of time, but even >that is not beyond belief. Little kittens can be very fragile, and I don't >know if they had been evaluated by a vet. Yes it is unusual for 3 kittens to die in a period of time but i'd also rush to add that any of 1,000+ things could have contributed to the death. Don't jump to the conclusion that it was the foster child. It could well have beenn from 999 other causes. I would add that all the littermates and mother of the kitten i currently have are all dead, my understanding is they died when the people taking care of them tried to treat the fleas they had without a vet. > My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, my > son started yelling that the kittens were dead. Three of them were. They [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Kim How old was the foster child? MLB >> My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, my >> son started yelling that the kittens were dead. Three of them were. They [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >How old was the foster child? MLB He is 12 and will be 13 in September. Kim > >> My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, my > >> son started yelling that the kittens were dead. Three of them were. They [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Message posted via CatKB.com > http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cats/200606/1 This will sound cold hearted but I think you should have let him kill the last kitten. It would be better to know for sure if the child is a killer. Right now he is under a cloud. It's a life of a human vs. a kitten. I say this because I once did volunteer work playing with children. The staff pointed out one girl and told us she was troubled. The result was we all avoided her. A visitor asked why everyone was neglecting this one girl. This kind of thing might happen to the foster child. Since the live kitten is bigger than the others, they might have died of natural causes. A kid lying and stealing might not know any better or may be so insecure he said what he thinks others want to hear. <impro6t9@hotmail.com> wrote in message > This will sound cold hearted but I think you should have let him kill > the last kitten. It would be better to know for sure if the child is a > killer. Right now he is under a cloud. It's a life of a human vs. a > kitten. That would have accomplished exactly nothing. Kids are cruel, it's a fact of life. How many of us (probably mostly boys, but anyway) have killed animals out of sheer spite? I admit to shooting at birds with a pellet gun when I was a kid and certainly killed more than one. I've teased animals to the point of torture. I'm not saying that it's right, just a fact of life. After I grew up, I developed a better perspective on life. I wouldn't dream of harming an animal now unless I was being attacked by it. *If* this kid killed the kittens and I emphasize the *if*, all that would happen beneficially for him might be a little counselling. It wouldn't last for very long and could seriously affect him in that it would go on his record and quite possibly adversely affect him from being adopted into a supporting, loving home where he could get what he likely really needs ~ parents who really care for him. Already, he's been shunned from this current home with the kittens. He surely knows that he's not wanted there. It's only a guess, maybe an educated one, but still only a guess that he killed those kittens. What if he didn't do it? If he is innocent, then there's already been irreparable psychological harm inflicted on him, based on just a suspicion of guilt. The only course of action at this point is to inform the adoption agency of one's suspicions and leave it at that. He will be monitored and if and when positive proof turns up, he will get some of the counselling that he needs. ><impro6t9@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >> This will sound cold hearted but I think you should have let him kill >> the last kitten. It would be better to know for sure if the child is a >> killer. Right now he is under a cloud. It's a life of a human vs. a >> kitten. You know, that occured to me but I trust my instincts so decided to observe the child's behavior to determine if he did it or not. I am very good at finding out what I want to know. I also have a son who is 13 and I did not want him to suffer any more. My son also killed a squirrel with a pellet gun and loves to do things to animals, (our own) to torture them (my term). He doesn't hurt them really and always gets lectured so to speak. I really had a good talking to him when he killed the squirrel. It hasn't happened again. I want you all to know that this child did not leave my home because of the kittens. The move was already in place before he even came. He knew that this home was temporary. It is possible that he was angry at that. No one has ever accused this child of this behavior of killing and nobody is going to. We ( the agency, myself, my son, DCFS) are not stupid or cruel. No family will ever be told of this behavior even if they knew for a fact that the child did it. You know, only one person even came close to answering the reason that I posted this. And that is, would an attentive mother cat have killed her own babies that were perfectly healthy. This was to find out if the child may not have killed them but I am convinced now that he did. I've always really known that. Thankyou very much. Please do not write again. >That would have accomplished exactly nothing. Kids are cruel, it's a fact of >life. How many of us (probably mostly boys, but anyway) have killed animals [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >one's suspicions and leave it at that. He will be monitored and if and when >positive proof turns up, he will get some of the counselling that he needs. "kimberly50 via CatKB.com" <u23432@uwe> wrote in message > killed her own babies that were perfectly healthy. This was to find out if > the child may not have killed them but I am convinced now that he did. I've > always really known that. You like to jump to conclusions, don't you? There's a half dozen reasons that cast doubt on your beliefs and that you can't know for sure what happened. 1) You didn't see it happen. 2) You have no physical evidence that the boy killed the kittens. 3) The boy did not himself admit to killing the kittens. 4) If you were really sure the boy killed the kittens, you wouldn't have posted here in the first place asking if it could have happened naturally. 5) You didn't take any of the kittens to the vet to have them autopsied. 6) In reality, it could have happened naturally and very easily. How many more reasons do you need to make sense to you? > Please do not write again. Kind of ridiculous don't you think to post your original questions here and then wind up asking that people stop replying? You started the ball rolling, you're going to have to endure comments until it finally stops. The more messages I read from you, the more likely it seems that you're the one with the problem. >My son also killed a squirrel with a pellet gun >and loves to do things to animals, (our own) to torture them (my term). Where did the child learn this? More than likely he didn't do this on his own, he probably learned from some adult somewhere along the line that it was alrigt to shoot squirrels. Again I wouldn't blame the child for doing what some adult taught him along the way. Kids treat animals the way they are taught by adults. When a child is born it is filled with love and is eager to learn. It is the adults who mold that child into what it becomes. Mother cats will kill sick kittens but don't know about healthy kittens. Mother cat will also eat their young kittens if she thinks they're in danger. What was the purpose of mentioning the foster kid? >That would have accomplished exactly nothing. Kids are cruel, it's a fact of >life. How many of us (probably mostly boys, but anyway) have killed animals >out of sheer spite? Yeah kids are cruel. And adults can be even more cruel towards the kids. >The only course of action at this point is to inform the adoption agency of >one's suspicions and leave it at that. He will be monitored and if and when >positive proof turns up, he will get some of the counselling that he needs. You have more confidence in the system than I have. He'll be shuffled from foster home to foster home often until he reaches 18, then he will be tossed out on the street. He will get little or no loving from a family, little or no medical attention, and little or no education or guidance. For all the flapping of gums that the pro life movement gives us, Barney Frank is right when he says republicans believe that life begins at conception and ends at birth. All too often that child in foster care was born to a crack addicted mom, ignored and negelected at birth, mistreated for the first few years of it's life. Later it is ripped from the only home and parents it knew and thrown into a home with strangers. It's no wonder these kids are a mess by the time they get into foster care. All too often the child is so messed up that the foster care family is re-arranging deck chairs on the titanic. No matter how well meaning the foster family, many times these kids are so screwed up that the foster family, the social workers, the medical workers, are at a loss to reclaim this lost child. It's really sad to watch and I wish more pro-life people would take in foster kids before they babble on about what is in the best interest of the child. Yes abortion is a less than desirable option, all too often these throw away kids face an even worse option....homelessness, drug addicted parents, etc. /rant off > My cat had four kittens. One evening after coming home from the movies, my > son started yelling that the kittens were dead. Three of them were. They [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Kim After reading all the posts I, still confused. Kittens dont become skinny while youre at te movies. Plump live kittens dont become skinny dead ones. >After reading all the posts I, still confused. > >Kittens dont become skinny while youre at te movies. > >Plump live kittens dont become skinny dead ones. I smell a troll...  Signature-john wide-open at throttle dot info >>After reading all the posts I, still confused. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I smell a troll... By crikey, you ARE quick! SignatureTalpus Grumpus >> I smell a troll... > >By crikey, you ARE quick! I haven't checked the NG in a while. :0 Signature-john wide-open at throttle dot info |
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