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The Truth about Dry Cat Food

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julian8888888@hotmail.com - 04 Feb 2006 02:25 GMT
Please read this if you feed your cat dry food and have found they have
health problems:

http://www.blakkatz.com/dryfood.html

I'm relatively new to cats and am not an expert, but I have been
reading a lot on the internet about cats since I found my new
companion.

I have been reading this forum for a few hours today and noticed many
people who are feeding their cats dry food are experiencing health
problems with their cats.  It's like a health epidemic.

"You are what you eat", it's true.

Try these as well:

http://cats.about.com/cs/nutrition/a/rawfooddiet.htm
http://cats.about.com/cs/nutrition/a/rawfooddiet_2.htm
http://www.catnutrition.org/foodmaking.html

I feed my cat RAW meat now.  Make sure it is raw and not cooked.  Cats
have evolved to eat raw meat not cooked meat with fillers.  I have
found that this raw meat diet is very healthy.  Her coat is shiny and
silky and she is energetic and happy.

It may sound extravagant at first but it is actually cheaper than
buying the premium canned cat food.  You can get many of the meats I
mention in bulk for cheap rates.  Also, if you feed them dry food you
will end up spending the money on a vet, losing your pet, or putting
both of you through a bad experience.  I don't think health should be
sacrificed.  Without your health you can't enjoy life and it is the
same for cats.

Studies have been done that compared a group of cats fed raw meat and
another fed cooked meat.  The cooked meat group developed health
problems while the raw meat group was healthy.  Once the cooked meat
group was switched to raw meat the problems dissipated.

Some easy foods to start off with that don't require much preparation
at all:

1.  Raw split chicken breasts. (this cut includes the breast bone which
cats can eat since they are thin.  They need some bones in their diet
for the calcium and they exercise their jaw in the process.  Just buy a
pack of them and keep them in the fridge.  Lay out one for the day.

2.  Raw Ground beef.  Just give her a little bit at a time.  Don't cook
it, they can't digest cooked fat well.

3.  Raw Salmon.  Thinly slice some raw salmon and lay in a bowl for
her.  I have read somewhere not to feed raw fish.  This sounds absurd
to me, the fish they eat in nature would be raw.  When in doubt, think
of a wild cat and what they would eat.  Mostly small critters whole and
the meat and organs of larger ones.  Thus give her small bones to
digest and meat from the larger creatures.

4.  Chicken Livers and hearts.  If you can find it from a butcher feed
her these as well once a week.  The heart is full of Taurine and the
Liver is full of vitamins.   Since I can't get a hold of these I mix a
cat vitamin in with the food once a week and a capsule of salmon oil on
her fish.  She will love the oil but not the vitamin, so mix it in.

5.  Catnip and grass..  It's supposed to aid digestion.  Give her a
little from the palm of your hand every few days or once a week.

If your cat looks unhealthy or is acting strange start from the root,
her diet.  I let her outside often as I live in a wooded area.  I'm
hoping in the summer she can catch some food to eat and munch on some
grass and other vegetables I hadn't thought of or included in her diet.
She caught a mouse, a rabbit, and a squirrel, in the fall so I have
confidence that she will do the same in the spring and summer.  Thus
she will balance her diet naturally on her own.  If you don't have this
option, I would suggest you try one of the homemade cat food recipes
that include the vitamins, oils, and such.

I hope your cats get healthy again.
NanCe - 04 Feb 2006 04:01 GMT
Here is an excellent website for you:  petdiets.com.  It is a site by Dr.
Rebeccah Romillard, a Veterinary Nutritionist, that lists many facts about
pet food (go to FAQ section).  Another site is secondchanceranch.org/index.
html.  Go down to "strong opposition to the BARF diet" and click on that for
quite a bit of information.  Since you have looked into feeding raw, please
look into sites of those opposed to it too as they may have info. you are not
aware of.

Raw meat from the grocery store can be dangerous as it is full of bacteria -
just a few are campylobacter,  escherichia, e coli and salmonella.  That is
why there are directions on raw meat advising us to cook it thoroughly.  And
no, animals are NOT immune to this bacteria.  They can contract mild to
severe gastrointestinal disease and some have died from this.  Wild animals
don't eat grocery store meats and they also don't live very long.  

As for the Pottenger study from 1946, it was not described well enough; it is
not clear as to whether the only difference was that one set of cats had
cooked and one had raw.  Did the raw eaters also have bones?  No one knows.
If they did get bones and the cooked group didn't, then that could explain
the illness of the cats who had the cooked food - calcium deficiency.

By the way, my sister's cat has been eating dry cat food her whole life and
she is 23 now.  Just as there are many many people out  there whose pets have
been fed conventional pet food and are still alive in their late teens and
early 20's.

NanCe
Joan in GB-W - 04 Feb 2006 15:29 GMT
>> By the way, my sister's cat has been eating dry cat food her whole life
and
> she is 23 now.  Just as there are many many people out  there whose pets have
> been fed conventional pet food and are still alive in their late teens and
> early 20's.
>
> NanCe

My 20 year Romeo has eaten dry food almost all of his life (and has never
needed his teeth cleaned).  He does get more soft food now as he is aging.
He gets a small amount of soft food in the morning.  The dry food stays out
all day.

I would not simply quit on dry food based on that article.  If you have
questions, ask your vet.  If you trust your vet you should trust the advice
he/she gives you.  If you don't trust what your vet says, get another one.

Joan
Ms B - 04 Feb 2006 15:53 GMT
My cats (6) split a can mixed with dry food in the morning. Dry food stays
out all day to nibble on. Rainbow (our 7 yr old) eats mostly dry, although
when I buy the pouches (tuna or salmon) she will lap that up in a sec!

Signature

Make each day the best it can be!

>>> By the way, my sister's cat has been eating dry cat food her whole life
> and
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> Joan
edie humperdink - 04 Feb 2006 21:00 GMT
a) a 1946 study???  dude, the composition of dry cat food has been
undergone several generations of improvements since 1946.  cat food now
is much better than 1946 cat food.

b) if you feed cats raw or (any wet food), they will have severe dental
issues as they age.  dental bacteria can cause heart problems too.  you
will have to pay for regular teeth cleanings if you feed raw (or wet
food) unless your cat brushes his teeth every day.
glenn P - 06 Feb 2006 00:48 GMT
If cats were NOT immune to e. Coli, as you suggest, then the millions of
ones who drink from toilet water would not have a quaint behavioural aspect.
Besides,

A Citation from a human case :
"""For example, E. coli O157:H7 infection has been associated with
undercooked ground beef. Although the hamburger he consumed appeared to be
well-cooked(brown in the middle), recent studies have shown that a
significant proportion of ground beef patties are brown in the middle before
they have reached an internal temperature high enough to kill E. coli
O157:H7 (160ºF). """

Cats have been known to carry and been infected with campylobacter, but
rarely get sick from it. Cooked food can also be contaminated by this.

And, finally - mishandled, non-recontainered cooked meat can also breed
botulinum toxin.

I suggest you research your claims more thoroughly.

Basically, cat foods based on wheat are bogus simulations of what they would
eat in the wild. They are the same things that cause Coeiliac disease,
"leaky gut" & irratible bowel syndromes in susceptible adult humans. You can
google that for your own information, with several verifiable resources.

"Space food" for cats is not what we should be feeding them. They have not
evolved long enough for us to change their diet in this way.

GP

> Here is an excellent website for you:  petdiets.com.  It is a site by Dr.
> Rebeccah Romillard, a Veterinary Nutritionist, that lists many facts about
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> NanCe
NanCe - 06 Feb 2006 03:10 GMT
>I suggest you research your claims more thoroughly.

http://www.petdiets.com/default.asp?Menu=FAQs&PageName=/faqs/default.asp

Dr. Remillard holds a B.S. and M.S. in animal science from Purdue University
and the University of Maine and in 1983 she received a Ph.D. in animal
nutrition from Colorado State University.  In 1987, she earned a Doctorate of
Veterinary Medicine from the Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine
and became a Diplomate of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition in
1991.  She completed a Postdoctoral Fellowship in Surgical Nutrition at the
John Hopkins University School of Medicine in 1993.  She has been the
Clinical Nutritionist at Angell Animal Medical Center in Boston, a major
metropolitan referral hospital serving more than 50,000 dog and cat cases
annually since 1993.

Dr. Remillard is founder and president of Veterinary Nutritional
Consultations which has been incorporated in Massachusetts since 1993.  There
are fewer than 60 individuals in the world with the combined qualifications
of a Ph.D. in animal nutrition, a DVM, and Board Certification by the
American College of Veterinary Nutrition.  Her interests primarily lie in the
area of of nutrient utilization as altered by disease processes.  She
continues to train veterinary students, interns, residents and provide
continuing education to practitioner on the subject of canine and feline
nutrition.  In 2004, she was an invited guest speaker at seven veterinary
schools in Japan.

She served on the Executive Board of the American Academy of Veterinary
Nutrition (www.aavn.org) between 1999 and 2005.  Concurrently, she has served
on the Executive Board of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition (
www.acvn.org) since 2000; culminating as Chairperson until 2006.  She is
considered a legal expert in the field of clinical pet nutrition, has
conducted numerous clinical studies at several universities in the actual use
of nutritional pet products, and has authored more than 45 publications in
the field of nutrition for veterinarians.  She has co-edited two editions of
a major nutrition textbook, Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, for
veterinarians and veterinary students.  Edition IV has been translated into
five languages for worldwide distribution.

Dr. Remillard has extensive relationships with professionals in veterinary
medicine.  She speaks annually at national and international veterinary
conferences on the topic of nutrition.  She has been conversing regularly
with veterinarians worldwide as a Nutritional Consultant on the Veterinary
Information Network since 1997, and therefore has a wide network of resources
and experiences in the practice of veterinary clinical nutrition.

I did research my claims thoroughly through Dr. Remillard's site - I think
I'll trust what this educated person has to say about what animals should be
eating more than someone on a cat newsgroup.

Hmm, didn't know cat food is based on "wheat".  Checked my cat's food and
there is no wheat listed but there is plenty of chicken for protein, fish for
omega-3's, eggs for protein and some carbs for energy.  "Space food"?  uuum,
okkkay.   Well, then my cats say "Beam me up Scotty"!

NanCe
edie humperdink - 06 Feb 2006 05:25 GMT
if he's so good, why didn't he go to harvard or at least cornell?
julian8888888@hotmail.com - 06 Feb 2006 19:22 GMT
I think for all that education she should know more about the dangers
of preservatives.  Read that article I linked about the Thiamine
deficiency.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&...

http://www.catvet.com.au/articles/thiamine_deficiency_pdf.pdf
(requires the Adobe Acrobat Reader which you can get here:
http://www.download.com/Adobe-Acrobat-Reader/3000-2378_4-10349804.html?tag=pdp_prod)

The danger is very real either directly or indirectly.  Many companies
use these additives and preservatives to hide the foul odour of their
foods.  Even so, I still find the smell of these commercial foods foul.
I heated half a portion of canned wet food(opened the previous day) to
slightly warm when I was still feeding commercial food and found the
odour unbelievably foul.  I think that was the day I decided to
research more and see what is really going on.  I'm glad I did.  Would
you eat something that smelled so foul?  Does it look and smell like
something wholesome and nutritious to you?

She also seems to think under her FAQ's section that cooking meat makes
the nutrients more readily available than raw meat.  Maybe so for some
nutrients but you also kill most of the others in doing so.  Cooking
makes meat protein more digestible for humans but cats don't have this
problem, they eat meat raw as their nature intended.  Such a small
snippet for such an important claim.  She fails to mention that cooking
meat actually destroys most of those nutrients and to compensate
commercial foods add vitamins.  So what you are essentially feeding
your pet is nutrient deficient foods with an excess of vitamin
supplements to make up for the losses, and perhaps a preservative that
is not mentioned that may actually destroy some of the vitamins they
add in.

Her site is also a .com site meaning she is making money. She doesn't
give the whole story regardless.  Another example; she says in her myth
section that bones offer no nutritional advantage.  They are full of
calcium, phosphorus, and minerals.  More importantly they are naturally
balanced to be in the right proportions.  These are the right levels
that the cats have evolved for.  How does she propose they get these
nutrients, via the use of vitamins that don't take the specific needs
of cats into consideration?    Also where is the mention of the benefit
to the jaw muscles from chewing the bones, and also the dental benefits
of chewing raw bones?  Her education and opinions seem very one sided
or incomplete to me.

When my cat makes a kill she eats the bones and all.  I see her natural
behaviour with her natural prey.  That speaks volumes for me more than
any person's opinion, regardless of their education.  A human cannot
fully comprehend the complexities of a natural system.  Instead of
changing it, work with it.

Perhaps part of her recommended diet is commercial food and thus gets
some of these benefits:

"There are also considerable kickbacks vets, vet schools, and breeders
can receive from recommending a commercial diet.

And most importantly, their advertising campaigns are slick, and tend
to make people feel guilty if they feed any other way.

And people are suckers for good advertising.

Let me make this very clear to you, I make no money from recommending a
raw diet, so you can be assured, by making such recommendations, I get
no financial kickbacks, nor will ever seek any. As a breeder of dogs I
could make a small fortune by letting my dogs be in dog food
commercials, and by selling on commercial dog foods.

I only recommend feeding raw because I want your dogs to be getting the
diet that will make them the healthiest that they can possibly be. "

-This person makes some good points.  Her site, about dogs(though this
part is equally true for cats), is here:

http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

I don't want to make any accusations, but I would say don't take the
opinion of one person as the basis for what you do.  You can't discern
properly their true motives, especially when they are trying to profit.

And who knows, perhaps some of these people have further vested
interests in these commercial companies such as company stock.
JimBob - 06 Feb 2006 20:17 GMT
>Let me make this very clear to you, I make no money from recommending a
>raw diet, so you can be assured, by making such recommendations, I get
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>part is equally true for cats), is here:
>http://www.rawlearning.com/rawfaq.html

http://www.bluegrace.com/contact.html

Hmm, but she does make money selling dogs.  If you go to her website to read
about raw feeding, you also see that she is a breeder and sells dogs.  Maybe
after you read about raw feeding you'll check out her dogs and buy one.  Yea,
she has no interest in making money at all!  That's hilarious.

JimBob
julian8888888@hotmail.com - 06 Feb 2006 20:19 GMT
More on vitamins and supplements.  The lab made vitamins don't equal
the organic made ones:

http://www.doctorsresearch.com/articles3.html
http://www.rawlearning.com/supplementmyths.html

> I think for all that education she should know more about the dangers
> of preservatives.  Read that article I linked about the Thiamine
[quoted text clipped - 78 lines]
> And who knows, perhaps some of these people have further vested
> interests in these commercial companies such as company stock.
mikel - 04 Feb 2006 19:06 GMT
> Please read this if you feed your cat dry food and have found they have
> health problems:
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
> I hope your cats get healthy again.

I can just see Indiana Jones, that's my cat's name, looking at me giving
him his homeopathic diet, and the look on his face is not one of
amusement.  He's been on dry food and a mix of soft on ocassions,
for...um,ever.

Sorry to say one of my other cats that ate dry cat food did die, when he
was 19 years old, damn that dry cat food.

mk
Joan in GB-W - 04 Feb 2006 20:13 GMT
> Sorry to say one of my other cats that ate dry cat food did die, when he
> was 19 years old, damn that dry cat food.
>
> mk

Well, I guess.  If you fed that cat soft food, he might have lived to 19.5
years.

Joan
NanCe - 04 Feb 2006 20:31 GMT
I should add too, the dry food stays down all day for her to nibble on but
she also gets canned for dinner which my sister started giving to her a few
years ago, much to her delight.    

NanCe
julian8888888@hotmail.com - 04 Feb 2006 21:42 GMT
Your cats may have lived a long time, but were they as healthy as they
could have been? Did they have to drink excessive amounts of water to
make up for the deficiency in their diet? Were they killing and eating
an auxiliary source of food on their own such as bugs and mice?

The dry food doesn't help their teeth at all, raw meat and bones are
abrasive enough to clean their teeth without carbohydrates from grains
that plaque feeds on.

Cats have strong acids in their stomach that are stronger than our own.

You don't have to be overly worried about bacteria from raw meat,
their stomach juices will kill it.   If you want to be extra cautious,
wash the meat before you feed it to  them.

Wild cats eat primarily raw meat and bones as nature intended and they
don't need dental cleaning.  Feeding solely raw meat is not good and
that is why I included bones.  The bones if raw will clean their teeth
with abrasion.  If cooked, the bones can be a health hazard due to
splintering.

The reason why your cats live so long is because they have such a
sheltered environment where food is always available and the elements
cannot reach them.  It's also not clear whether these cases are of cats
that were fed just dry food or a mixture of dry food, wet food, and
wild food.

Here's another good link in favor of raw food for humans and pets:
http://www.living-foods.com/articles/rawfreshproduce.html

> I should add too, the dry food stays down all day for her to nibble on but
> she also gets canned for dinner which my sister started giving to her a few
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Message posted via CatKB.com
> http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cats/200602/1
mikel - 05 Feb 2006 14:45 GMT
> Your cats may have lived a long time, but were they as healthy as they
> could have been? Did they have to drink excessive amounts of water to
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>>Message posted via CatKB.com
>>http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cats/200602/1

yes, they were, and still are, they tell me everyday, PRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrr!

mk
julian8888888@hotmail.com - 05 Feb 2006 21:42 GMT
You've said you live in Texas on a large parcel of land where your cats
can hunt.  So then, they are not being fed just dry food.  That is
good, and is probably the reason they live so long(fresh wild meat).
I'm guessing they can go out and hunt all year long as Texas is warm
year round.  True or not?

If you were feeding them just dry food I'd venture to say you would
have seen more problems.  You are fortunate to be in a good location
for your cats to hunt, others aren't and may be relying solely on dry
food.  These are probably the ones that are having the most health
problems with their cats.  This is meant for them mostly.

You'd probably do well to feed them wet food instead of that dry food
you give them but if it's working, and they haven't had an allergic
reaction yet, and they continue to hunt, then do whatever you want.
I'm just trying to help out.

> > Your cats may have lived a long time, but were they as healthy as they
> > could have been? Did they have to drink excessive amounts of water to
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
> mk
edie humperdink - 05 Feb 2006 03:19 GMT
dry + wet = obese cat
Ms B - 05 Feb 2006 15:23 GMT
Not necessarily,edie....If they get exercise...just like adults...

Signature

Make each day the best it can be!

> dry + wet = obese cat
julian8888888@hotmail.com - 04 Feb 2006 21:06 GMT
Your cats may have lived a long time, but were they as healthy as they
could have been?  Did they have to drink excessive amounts of water to
make up for the deficiency in their diet?  Were they killing and eating
an auxiliary source of food on their own such as bugs and mice?

The dry food doesn't help their teeth at all, raw meat and bones are
abrasive enough to clean their teeth without carbohydrates from grains
that plaque feeds on.

Cats have strong acids in their stomach that are stronger than our own.
You don't have to be overly worried about bacteria from raw meat,
their stomach juices will kill it.

If you want to be extra cautious, wash the meat before you feed it to
them.

> Please read this if you feed your cat dry food and have found they have
> health problems:
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>
> I hope your cats get healthy again.
NanCe - 04 Feb 2006 22:12 GMT
http://www.vet-contact.de/en/art.php?a=178&=

I'm sure the owner of these 2 cats wishes he/she fed them regular cat food.

NanCe

PS  Did you know that feeding raw fish can cause a thiamine (B vitamin)
deficiency?
NanCe - 04 Feb 2006 22:17 GMT
http://www.vetcontact.de/en/art.php?a=178&=

Corrected link.

NanCe
julian8888888@hotmail.com - 04 Feb 2006 22:42 GMT
Again, there is a complete lack of details.

When was the meat purchased, what condition was it in?  Also, was the
meat left out in exposure to air for extended period of time where the
bacteria had time to multiply and develop before being fed to the cat?
Was the meat washed?  Was this human grade meat or of lesser quality?
How was it handled and in what kind of environment, clean or dirty?

There are dangers in any diet.  We just have to minimize the risks
associated with either diet.  I would say look to nature as the basis
for the diet, not to humans that cannot fully understand the
complexities of a natural system.

Since you have a pet, and it won't have wild fresh food daily, you
should try to mimic their natural diet as closely as possible while
minimizing the dangers associated with anything unnatural.

Cats are carnivores not omnivores.  They don't have the digestive
tracts to fully digest grains and vegetables.  They have been eating
meat for millions of years as the basis of their diet.

Why now since they have been recently domesticated, would we expect
them to suddenly be able to eat grains and vegetables?  They are not
rabbits or deer, they are cats.  It makes no sense, and that is what a
dry food diet is based on, ignorance and profit margins.

Thanks for the link on raw fish, I will read it and examine it.

> http://www.vetcontact.de/en/art.php?a=178&=
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Message posted via CatKB.com
> http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cats/200602/1
NanCe - 04 Feb 2006 23:04 GMT
http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Health/raw_meat_tristans_story.htm
http://www.petplace.com/cats/thiamine-deficiency-in-cats/page1.aspx

I just don't trust the meats in grocery stores, not even if you're washing
them.  I do agree though that there is nothing wrong with a cat eating a
mouse as that is fresh kill, it hasn't been sitting around collecting
bacteria.  
Oh well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

NanCe
Ivor Jones - 04 Feb 2006 23:10 GMT
> http://www.bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/Health/raw_meat_tristans_story.htm
> http://www.petplace.com/cats/thiamine-deficiency-in-cats/page1.aspx
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> nothing wrong with a cat eating a mouse as that is fresh
> kill, it hasn't been sitting around collecting bacteria.

Hmm, are you sure about that..? I'd hazard a guess that a mouse that has
been running around outside in God only knows what is crawling with
bacteria..!

As are you, every surface in your house, car, workplace and everywhere
else for that matter. Whether those bacteria are harmful to you or cats is
another matter.

Ivor
---MIKE--- - 04 Feb 2006 23:19 GMT
Ivor wrote:

>>I'd hazard a guess that a mouse that
>> has been running around outside in
>> God only knows what is crawling with
>> bacteria..!

Not only that but the mouse might have eaten some poison that was put
out by a neighbor (or you).  Wild prey is not that safe in an urban
area.

                 ---MIKE---
>>In the White Mountains of New Hampshire
>> (44° 15'  N - Elevation 1580')
NanCe - 04 Feb 2006 23:47 GMT
>Not only that but the mouse might have eaten some poison that was put
>out by a neighbor (or you).  Wild prey is not that safe in an urban
>area.

Absolutely agree.  My cats are indoor except when I take them for walks
around the yard so they never eat rodants.  I just know so many people who
let their cats outside and they're always talking about the mice they bring
home so I assumed that mice are not that unhealthy for them, but come to
think of it, they also talk about how their cats have worms a lot!  Although
I suppose worms aren't the end of the world (but I would definitely prefer
that my cat not have them!).

NanCe
NanCe - 04 Feb 2006 23:40 GMT
>Hmm, are you sure about that..? I'd hazard a guess that a mouse that has
>been running around outside in God only knows what is crawling with
>bacteria..!
>As are you, every surface in your house, car, workplace and everywhere
>else for that matter.

Yes, I stand corrected.  

NanCe
julian8888888@hotmail.com - 05 Feb 2006 01:11 GMT
NanCe, you were right about the thiamine deficiency.   It's even worse
when fed the internal organs of raw fish.  I also found that the
African Wild Cat has been shown, via genetics, to be the ancestor of
the domestic cat.

Fish is not part of their natural diet.  I think I will remove it from
the diet.  There is no shortage of mice, insects, frogs, and snakes
where I live so she will get a healthy diet in the warmer months.

http://www.moggies.co.uk/breeds/africacat.html
http://www.abf90.dial.pipex.com/bco/lybica.htm
http://blindftp.exis.net/~spook/wildtxt.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AfricanWildCat.jpg (looks like the
ancestor too)
http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/howto9.html(cat nutrition, verifies
the fish danger in the bottom paragraph of fats.)

> >Hmm, are you sure about that..? I'd hazard a guess that a mouse that has
> >been running around outside in God only knows what is crawling with
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Message posted via CatKB.com
> http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cats/200602/1
julian8888888@hotmail.com - 05 Feb 2006 01:18 GMT
NanCe, you were right about the thiamine deficiency.   It's even worse
when fed the internal organs of raw fish.  I also found that the
African Wild Cat has been shown, via genetics, to be the ancestor of
the domestic cat.

Fish is not part of their natural diet.  I think I will remove it from
the diet.  There is no shortage of mice, insects, frogs, and snakes
where I live so she will get a healthy diet in the warmer months.

Also, I found that the thiamine deficiencies were prevalent in cats
that were fed solely fish and no other meats.  Such one meat diets are
bad for any creature.  Cats need to eat various types of meats from
different creatures to get all their vitamins and nutrients at optimal
and balanced levels.  Read the last page linked below for more info on
this.  Balance, variety, and moderation are key in a healthy diet.

http://www.moggies.co.uk/breeds/africacat.html
http://www.abf90.dial.pipex.com/bco/lybica.htm
http://blindftp.exis.net/~spook/wildtxt.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AfricanWildCat.jpg (looks like the
ancestor too)
http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/howto9.html(cat nutrition, verifies
the fish danger in the bottom paragraph of fats.)
> >Hmm, are you sure about that..? I'd hazard a guess that a mouse that has
> >been running around outside in God only knows what is crawling with
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Message posted via CatKB.com
> http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cats/200602/1
julian8888888@hotmail.com - 05 Feb 2006 01:22 GMT
NanCe, you were right about the thiamine deficiency.   It's even worse
when fed the internal organs of raw fish.  I also found that the
African Wild Cat has been shown, via genetics, to be the ancestor of
the domestic cat.

Fish is not part of their natural diet.  I think I will remove it from
the diet.  There is no shortage of mice, insects, frogs, and snakes
where I live so she will get a healthy diet in the warmer months.

Also, I found that the thiamine deficiencies were prevalent in cats
that were fed solely fish and no other meats.  Such one meat diets are
bad for any creature.  Cats need to eat various types of meats from
different creatures to get all their vitamins and nutrients at optimal
and balanced levels.  Read the last page linked below for more info on
this.  Balance, variety, and moderation are key in a healthy diet.

http://www.moggies.co.uk/breeds/africacat.html
http://www.abf90.dial.pipex.com/bco/lybica.htm
http://blindftp.exis.net/~spook/wildtxt.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AfricanWildCat.jpg (looks like the
ancestor too)
http://www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/howto9.html (cat nutrition, verifies
the fish danger in the bottom paragraph of fats.)

> >Hmm, are you sure about that..? I'd hazard a guess that a mouse that has
> >been running around outside in God only knows what is crawling with
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Message posted via CatKB.com
> http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cats/200602/1
mikel - 05 Feb 2006 14:45 GMT
> Again, there is a complete lack of details.
>
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>>Message posted via CatKB.com
>>http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cats/200602/1

you should open your own pet resturaunt, or something a little more
useful, do you actually think you are changing minds with this dribble.
julian8888888@hotmail.com - 05 Feb 2006 18:39 GMT
What dribble, I was responding to a point someone made.  This is called
conversation.

I'm trying to help those people who don't know why their cats are
having health problems. To me it seems obvious that an unnatural diet
is a major contributor to the problem.

Unless you have something useful to add, you yourself are just spouting
dribble.  Have you even read any of the articles?   Instead of making
personal attacks, do something a little more useful and try listening
and arguing the facts.

> > Again, there is a complete lack of details.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> you should open your own pet resturaunt, or something a little more
> useful, do you actually think you are changing minds with this dribble.
julian8888888@hotmail.com - 05 Feb 2006 20:55 GMT
Seems it's not just fish that causes the thiamine deficiency.  It may
not have been the fish at all but the way it was preserved that caused
the deficiency.  It's also caused by meats preserved with sulphur
dioxide.  Follow the link below to read more.

I think if raw fish is fed once a week the cat can deal with it, she
will get her thiamine later in the week from another source.  However,
if all you feed is raw fish I can see how that could be a problem.   I
think I will just feed it once a week from now on because fish has some
other nutrients not found in land meat and she can chew and eat the
fish bones without any problems to get her calcium and jaw exercise.

I think of it like this... would a cat pass up a dead fish by a stream
or pool of water?  Probably not.  The bones from fish are easy for her
to chew and digest as well.

I think problems develop from imbalance and monotony in the diet and
feeding completely incompatible foods such as grains which besides
being foreign can cause allergic reactions in some cats leading to such
things as hair loss for example.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=2
025202&dopt=Abstract


http://www.catvet.com.au/articles/thiamine_deficiency_pdf.pdf

> http://www.vet-contact.de/en/art.php?a=178&=
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Message posted via CatKB.com
> http://www.catkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/cats/200602/1
NMR - 05 Feb 2006 21:00 GMT
> Seems it's not just fish that causes the thiamine deficiency.  It may
> not have been the fish at all but the way it was preserved that caused
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> or pool of water?  Probably not.  The bones from fish are easy for her
> to chew and digest as well.

Actually they probably would I don't know if you re aware of this but Fish
is not a natural food source for cats which originate from the desert
ancestries
julian8888888@hotmail.com - 05 Feb 2006 21:12 GMT
Thanks, I am aware of that.  I read about the wild cats and what they
eat but I also read about the European wild cat which the African cat
is thought to be descended from.

If you read this you'll find that they rarely feed on fish(most likely
because it's much harder to catch unless it's about to die after
spawning, or in a shallow pool), but they do feed on it occasionally.

Check it out:
http://www.abf90.dial.pipex.com/bco/silvestr.htm

I'm also going to try and find some rabbit at the butcher shop.

> > Seems it's not just fish that causes the thiamine deficiency.  It may
> > not have been the fish at all but the way it was preserved that caused
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> is not a natural food source for cats which originate from the desert
> ancestries
NMR - 05 Feb 2006 21:14 GMT
> Thanks, I am aware of that.  I read about the wild cats and what they
> eat but I also read about the European wild cat which the African cat
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> I'm also going to try and find some rabbit at the butcher shop.

get some venison  instead  a healthier meat not fat
Dr.Carla,DVM - 05 Feb 2006 03:24 GMT
I've read many of the replies to your post.  And here is what I have to
say...
There are dangers, as discussed in some of these replies, which do range
from bacteria to parasites.  It is imperative that your cat is given foods
that will provide all the nutrients your cat needs to survive.  It is VERY
difficult to maintain a cat on a homemade diet, because of all the special
considerations.

It is very commendable that you take such an interest in your cat's health.
I would strongly recommend you consult with a veterinarian who specializes
in holistic medicine.  The AHVMA (American Holistic Veterinary Medical
Association) provides a search engine http://www.holisticvetlist.com/ with
options for state, type of holistic medicine and pet..  For more information
on holistic veterinarians you can go to the AHVMA website
http://www.ahvma.org/index.cfm .

Thanks!!
NanCe - 05 Feb 2006 04:36 GMT
http://www.petdiets.com/default.asp?Menu=FAQs&PageName=/faqs/default.asp

They can help you out too with a diet - raw if you want it.  At least it
would be properly formulated and you wouldn't have to worry that your cats
are not getting the correct amount of vitamins, minerals, etc.  

NanCe
Victor Martinez - 05 Feb 2006 04:39 GMT
> that will provide all the nutrients your cat needs to survive.  It is VERY
> difficult to maintain a cat on a homemade diet, because of all the special
> considerations.

Why?
http://www.catnutrition.org/
Recipe is very easy to follow. Unfortunately, my cats won't touch raw
food. :(

Signature

Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov
Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com

julian8888888@hotmail.com - 05 Feb 2006 18:43 GMT
Victor, I started to introduce raw food by chopping it into bite sized
chunks and adding it in to the wet food.  Gradually replace more of the
wet food with the raw meat each time you feed your cat until it's only
raw meat.

> > that will provide all the nutrients your cat needs to survive.  It is VERY
> > difficult to maintain a cat on a homemade diet, because of all the special
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov
> Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com
Gary Stone - 05 Feb 2006 05:34 GMT
> I've read many of the replies to your post.  And here is what I have to
> say...
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Thanks!!

On a lighter side, my cats supplement their diet with raw meat all on their
own. They simply slide out their little door for a natural snack.

Stone
Some pic's  http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/stoneman72/my_photos
mikel - 05 Feb 2006 14:56 GMT
>>I've read many of the replies to your post.  And here is what I have to
>>say...
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> Stone
> Some pic's  http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/stoneman72/my_photos

We lie on 700 acres on Texas, unforunately it is a little dry now, but
our cat gets some of the same supplements.  they love the doves that
come out in the mornings. The doves are illegal for me to shoot this
time of the year, but not for my cat. He loves'em.

He's not quite quick enough for sqiurels at least full grown ones.

my Cat loves the outdoors, trees to claw, birds to chase, sun to lay in,
fresh water from the spring in our creek, Mesquite Creek that is, and a
little dry food to top it off.

mk

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