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Litterbox problem.  Help Please!

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Shy Guy - 24 Jan 2006 06:46 GMT
I have a two related questions to pose to the group.

The first relates to an older cat who is having problems using the litter
box on occasion.

Background:  I have two cats.  The female since she was a kitten.  One year
after that, I decided to get her a companion, a male I found at an animal
shelter.  His age was not definite, but the shelter owners claimed he was 2,
this is probably accurate within a year or so, so both cats are close in
age.  Both cats were neutered before they were ever placed together.  The
female took some time to adjust to the new presence but with a lot of
patience on our parts, she finally got used to him over a period of a couple
of weeks.  She has remained the more aggressive and territorial of the two
throughout their relationship, while he has always been gentler, calmer, and
submissive since the day he came to live with us (indeed, their response to
their owners has always been the same as well:  she is possessive of her
owner and jealous when he gets the attention; she likes affection but is
aggressive in her interaction and play;  he has always been an absolute
sweetheart from day one).

Anyway, the female is now 12 years old, and he is somewhere in the 12-14
range, so they have been together for many years.   Occasionally, in years
past, I would discover large hidden collections of feces in out of the way
places, for example behind the television set, and in the back corner of the
closet.  Based on the amount of droppings, it clearly had been occurring for
a long period of time when I finally cleaned there and discovered it.  In
certain areas of the apartment, I would sometimes walk around and get a waft
of urine smell, although I never found a wet spot or stain anywhere.  It
became clear that the female was not using the litter box regularly.  Most
of the time she does, but periodically does not.  The male has never had
this problem.  Except on very rare occasions, I scoop out the contents of
the litter box daily, and replace the litter when it gets rather low.
Admittedly, I do not wash and completely replace the litter in the box very
often.

Perhaps 3 or 4 years ago, things took a disturbing turn.  I finally found a
wet spot.  It was on my bed right where I sleep, near my pillow.  She had
urinated on the bed.  Since that night, she periodically defecates and
urinates in the exact same spot, rather than use the litter box in those
instances.  I have now slept on a vinyl-lined mattress cover in order to
protect my king-size mattress from damage for the past few years.  In
addition, I use an old rain poncho as a dropcloth that protects that quarter
of the bed and bedspread which I must lay out without fail every single
morning or panic that my blanket and sheets might be ruined before I get
back home.  She clearly likes that spot, as her behavior has continued for
these past few years and always hits the rain poncho squarely.  At least
this has spared my bed and linens any further damage.  Still, I find the
situation maddening.  Feces is easy enough to deal with, but urine is a
mess, even when I only have to scrub a rain poncho.  Last night, I readied
for bed, exhausted, but discovered I could not retire until I took care of a
warm malodorous puddle on my rain poncho.  I decided last night that no
matter how attached I may be to the animal, if a definitive solution to the
behavior cannot be discovered, the cat will be moving to a shelter.  It is
simply not worth the aggravation anymore.  Any attempts to discipline her or
train her not to do this and retrain her to use her litter box have been
unsuccessful.  After all, she does use the litter box 90-95% of the time, so
she knows where it is and prefers to use it.  Her decision not to, and even
moreso, her decision to use my bed as her single alternative, is clearly
just that, a decision, with a definite agenda.

When the problem first moved to the bed, a few years ago, I asked the vet
about the problem.  She told me to get a second litter box.  A multiple cat
household should always have multiple litter boxes, said she.  Occasionally,
I put out a second box when I have to leave town for a few days and they are
to be left alone, and generally she does not use the bed if the other litter
box is out, even when neither is cleaned for a few days, so at face value,
this could solve the problem.  However, I do not want to care for two boxes
permanently.  I do not have room in my bathroom for a second box, and I
really would prefer not to have a litter box in my bedroom, living room,
etc.  Besides, I am so careful about scooping the box out daily that it
shouldn’t be a  problem.

I guess my first question is whether anyone else here has dealt with a
similar problem.  What do you attribute this behavior to?  How did anyone
else deal with it, short of getting rid of the cat?  Is the vet’s advice
sound?  Is a second permanent box the only solution?

My other question relates to automatic electric litter boxes that self clean
after each use.  I’m thinking that this could be the solution, assuming the
cat’s main objection is that she doesn’t want to use a box that has another
cat’s waste in it.  I have a coworker who has two cats and one of these
machines, and swears by it.  In some ways, purchasing one of these is
capitulating anyway, since the models I have seen would not fit well in my
bathroom currently, so I would need to find a place for it in another part
of the apartment anyway, but at least I would still have one box to deal
with and not two, and there clearly would be less maintenance for me once it
was set up.  Of course, they also are relatively expensive, although as a
one-time cost I’m not that concerned, IF it solves the problem, since both
cats are likely to live several more years and I would prefer to keep them
both for their natural lifespans.

So, the next question is do you think this investment is likely to be a
successful way to deal with the problem?

Finally, I would like some advice and feedback on any of the models of
automatic litter boxes.  I went to the local Petsmart today and looked at
all the models.  They all do basically the same thing, but differ
significantly in price, size, and appearance.  They probably have different
ongoing overhead costs in terms of replacing liners, other parts, and the
like.  I’m also curious just how well they function.  It’s easy to scoop out
one solid clump of urine, but sometimes they urinate on the bottom of the
box rather than directly into litter, therefore the urine basically spreads
out over the bottom.  The litter still absorbs the urine once the cats bury
their handiwork but now instead of being a round discrete clump, it is more
of widely dispersed wet clay that sometimes takes time to scrape off the
bottom in order to get it all out of the box.  How would an electric box,
with it’s automatic “rake” deal with this situation?  I just imagine that
the blades of the rake would sift through and slice up the urine soaked
clay, but not necessarily pick it all up and deposit it in the bin.

What I’m looking for here is any product feedback you all can give me.  Who
has experience with the following models?  How satisfied are you with it?
What are the best/worst features of that particular machine?  What are the
approximate ongoing costs for the parts you need to replace periodically?
Is it worth it?

Littermaid $100 (also available in a Mega size for $160, but doesn’t look
that much larger, so I’m not sure if paying the extra $60 could possibly be
worth it; after all the whole point is that each time the cat enters it,
they are entering a newly cleaned box, so what’s the point of the larger
size?)  This is the one my coworker has (standard size) and he says it works
great for his two cats.

Littersweep Ultra (Stylette) $80

Purrforma Plus XL (Petmate) $200 (it should provide bidet service for the
cats for $200, Jeez!)

Scoopfree $140 (Apparently from the makers of Freshstep Litter, they sell
special replacement trays pre-filled with Freshstep, could be expensive to
maintain)

I’m sorry that my first post to these groups is so long, but I did want to
be thorough in my explanations and needs.

TIA

Shy Guy
Ivor Jones - 24 Jan 2006 09:08 GMT
[snip]

> I guess my first question is whether anyone else here has
> dealt with a similar problem.  What do you attribute this
> behavior to?  How did anyone else deal with it, short of
> getting rid of the cat?  Is the vet’s advice sound?  Is a
> second permanent box the only solution?

Or even three. Yes, the advice you received is sound. You should ideally
have as many litter boxes as you have cats, plus one. So for two cats,
three boxes. Cats do not like sharing litter trays with other cats.

I've never used the automatic type, they're not common here in the UK so I
can't advise on that. But get more boxes/trays, NOW..!!

Ivor
Spider - 24 Jan 2006 17:05 GMT
> I have a two related questions to pose to the group.
>
[quoted text clipped - 75 lines]
> My other question relates to automatic electric litter boxes that self clean
> after each use.  I'm thinking that this could be the solution, assuming
the
> cat's main objection is that she doesn't want to use a box that has
another
> cat's waste in it.  I have a coworker who has two cats and one of these
> machines, and swears by it.  In some ways, purchasing one of these is
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> ongoing overhead costs in terms of replacing liners, other parts, and the
> like.  I'm also curious just how well they function.  It's easy to scoop
out
> one solid clump of urine, but sometimes they urinate on the bottom of the
> box rather than directly into litter, therefore the urine basically spreads
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> What I'm looking for here is any product feedback you all can give me.
Who
> has experience with the following models?  How satisfied are you with it?
> What are the best/worst features of that particular machine?  What are the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Littermaid $100 (also available in a Mega size for $160, but doesn't look
> that much larger, so I'm not sure if paying the extra $60 could possibly
be
> worth it; after all the whole point is that each time the cat enters it,
> they are entering a newly cleaned box, so what's the point of the larger
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Shy Guy

Hi,

Your main problem is not that this is happening, but that it has been
happening for so long.  Your female cat is now not just top cat (which is
fair enough - she was your first cat) but she is also the dominant
householder.  In other words, she is in charge in your home.  You have been
relegated to second or third place in the household heirarchy .. probably
second, since she seems to rate you above her male companion.  It is time
for you to claw back your overall authority and take control.

If it is at all  possible, it is essential that you keep your bedroom door
closed to curtail the most offensive part of her behaviour.  Goodness!  You
must have the patience of a saint to put up with this for so long.  Lady Cat
has shown some expected - and some more complex - behaviour.  One would
expect a few introduction problems, but you imply that the two cats seem
mutually tolerant now. However, the fact that she went through a phase of
secret toileting suggests that she felt very stressed and defensive during
this period.  It is quite likely that this stress (and her reaction) were
the result of having to share her toilet with the new male.  However, her
toileting behaviour now suggests very dominant behaviour, in line with her
possessive, aggressive attitude.   I wonder if, because Mr. Cat is more
'user-friendly' that you have favoured him when you come home and relax,
perhaps without realising it.  This would certainly have the effect of
making Lady Cat more jealous and claiming you in the only way she knows
how - inappropriate soiling.

Let her keep her top cat status and reinforce it by calling her first, then
Mr. Cat.  Put her dinner down first, then Mr. Cat's.  Clean her litter tray
first .. and so on.  Also try and give her a fair share of your time.  I
appreciate that cleaning up after her 'steals' a lot of the time you might
otherwise spend with her, so excluding both cats from your bedroom should
release some of that time for you.  It would be very unfair - and unwise -
to allow only one cat into your inner sanctum, so both must learn to stay
out.

As your vet has suggested, you really do need to have two litter trays.  You
admit you have already tried two - and it worked - so, despite some
inconvenience, I suggest you reinstall the second tray.  If Lady Cat still
defecates elsewhere, pick her up together with the offending poo and take
them both to her litter tray.  Put the poo in her tray, encourage her to
sniff it (don't force her - she'll never use the tray again!) and say
'please poop in your tray'.  If you keep this up, she will certainly
understand and I would surmise you won't need to do this for too long.
Also, when she ("90-95%) normally uses her tray and you're around to see it,
praise her as she enters it.  Then leave her to be private.

(Alas, I have no experience of the self-cleaning litter boxes you mention.
One may be a suitable alternative if your research is positive.)

It is also important that you remove the odours associated with her
behaviour, otherwise she will simply want to re-annoint them to confirm her
'rightful' dominance.  I have found that the orange-scented spray cleaners
are good for this:  cats don't like citrus; cats don't like sprays - they
sound like another cat hissing.   However you choose to do it, ensure that
her scent is neutralised.  It's fine for her bed and her litter tray to
smell of her, but not your entire house and certainly not your bed.
Use a more cat-friendly solution when cleaning and deodorising the litter
trays; that is to say: not citrus, not spray, otherwise you'll undo all your
good work.

I truly hope you can turn her (and your!) behaviour  around.
Good luck.
Spider
Shy Guy - 26 Jan 2006 06:09 GMT
Thank you for your in-depth (and fairly accurate) analysis, Spider.  I will
take your suggestions into consideration.

Shy Guy

> > I have a two related questions to pose to the group.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 231 lines]
> Good luck.
> Spider
nosredna - 24 Jan 2006 17:30 GMT
> I have a two related questions to pose to the group.
>
[quoted text clipped - 134 lines]
>
> Shy Guy

I had a similar problem a few years ago with my Pookie. He had been
neutered for a few years, but started spraying again at about age five.
I took him to the vet to rule out illness; vet said he was fit as a
fiddle. We had a younger, female cat (they got along beautifully) at the
time, and kept two litter boxes (one upstairs and one down). At first he
started having "accidents" near the litterbox (both were kept clean as a
whistle). Then he started urinating in other parts of the house. I tried
several things suggested by other cat owners and the vet. At first it
only happened every few months; when it became once a month, we still
put up with it (and cleaned spots with enzyme cleaner), but then I found
urine on a wall, which obviously wasn't an accident--he was actually
spraying. He started "marking" everything in the house, including the
blanket of a friend (while she was asleep) who was spending the night on
the living room couch. If anyone dropped a sock on the way to the
laundry room, that sock would be marked within fifteen minutes. I
couldn't even put a laundry basket on the floor--Pookie would think it
was fair game (clean clothes or dirty clothes). This ordeal went on for
almost a year. We finally took him to the no-kill shelter. They knew
about the problem, but it's easier for them to deal with it, since the
place is one big room with concrete floors. Pookie got adopted a few
months later--he was a very charming cat in spite of his idiosyncrasy.
The shelter's rule is that if a cat isn't a "good fit," the new owner
must bring him back. So far so good, so I guess he's fitting in wherever
he is now.
Shy Guy - 26 Jan 2006 06:10 GMT
> I had a similar problem a few years ago with my Pookie. He had been
> neutered for a few years, but started spraying again at about age five.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> must bring him back. So far so good, so I guess he's fitting in wherever
> he is now.

Thanks for sharing your story.  I hope my own doesn't come to that
particular end, but it is nice to know I am not alone.

Shy Guy
Jane - 26 Jan 2006 03:46 GMT
Hi "Shy Guy"

OK, first and foremost you must understand how cats work and put yourself in
their position Smell smell and smell. When humans come into a room, the fist
sense we use is sight. Not cats. Their first sense is smell. Then hearing;
then sight! And their sense of smell is way stronger then humans as you
know, so much so that things we cannot smell, they can. So this is where
problems start - and end. With smell.

Cats are VERY clean animals, and for them to urinate/poo outside usual area
is rare. They are usually either ill, pissed off, house too big to reach the
tray, or they are rebelling against the dirty tray. I have a feeling the
latest might be the case in your situation, so she started going elsewhere,
like your bed, but since those areas werent cat-standard clean, she just
went back there - hence the bed problem. I have the same problem with my
Shadow, she will go on the bed, if the tray is dirty, and she is very fussy.
VERY fussy. I got 5 cats and they all share only 1 tray - succesfully.
Providing of course, its clean enough. Its not enough to jus pick up poops.
Urine smell is stronger and lasts longer. I change my litter tray every 3rd
day. That seems to work with them. I now get an excident maybe once in
couple of years, just to make a point :)

So, urine smell, lets work on that:

1. Cleaning the litter tray - it has to be properly done, sorry, I know you
hate it, we all do, but how would you feel going to toilet soaked in wee. So
get read of all litter in the tray, say every 3-4 days. Spray the tray with
some antibacterial spray such as Mr Muscle or similar(yes they smell, but
this smell evaporates fast). Wipe with paper tissues. Place plastic tray bag
in the tray. Put a bunch of newspapers(to soak wee) on the bottom. Now put
litter on top, about 3-4cm  deep. Buy cat litter that soaks up smells too. I
buy lightweight Sofisticat pink cat litter, they soak up smells, and allow
most of urine to pass on the bottom of tray. I used it since day one, its
not clay, it looks like grains. Its actually one of the cheapest litters
here in UK.  So, paper will soak up urine for a while, and odour release
will do some work too, so cats will go back in, so for 3-4 days all you need
to do is make sure you pick up poopoos. Finally, on the day 3-4, just pick
up the whole plastic bag and dump it, clean tray with antibactirial spray,
and Bob's your uncle.

2. Clean the bed - and any other areas she urinated/pood on. Keep
remembering you are working on smells first, a cat-level smell. Since the
first time your cat has urinated there, the area now smells on wee.
Therefore it must be a toilet. That is her way of thinking. If you didnt
clean it to her standards, she will only continue using it for the same
purpose, then get into a habbit.

So to clean bed/carpet/corner, clean any -easy surfic area with
antibacterial spray. For beds and carpets. however, you must MUST wash the
area with biological powdered water which contains enzymes. Or enzyme spray.
Now this will only neutralize urine to an extent. Not the smell. Now, once
that is dry, yes wait till its dry, I know it can take days :( so, once its
dry, step 2 is VINEGAR! Forget citrus fruit etc. That only lasts about 5
min. You need a smell that can last, adn one that CATS will hate. VINEGAR is
brilliant. Take a strong one you can find, I use clear malt. Stinks bad, I
should know, but its worth a few days trouble. So, pour vinegar on
bed/carpet and rub it in. Bear in mind it might leave a stain/change color
of carpet/bed. But I assume urine has done that already. Never mind the
stain. You can cover it up. But best use CLEAR MALT vinegar then, so it dont
leave a stain. Now vinegar kills the urine smell, and leaves its own strong
smell which cat will avoid. Finally, once vinegar is dry, again pls wait
till dry, get some Downy clothes conditioner and rub it in. THis one is for
you, just to give you a nice smell :) So now, you have a clean area, that
does NOT smell like amonia to a cat nor you. Rememebr if you the cat has
been going there for a long time, you may need to simply buy new mattress
and throw away some bedding, cos it will be too hard to clean. But make sur
you do NOT place on bed anything else that was used for urinating, and not
been thoroughly washed with biological poder. Otherwise you are just
inviting your cat back to her " toilet" . YOu need to undo this
associattion.

The finall step to ANY area you DONT want your cat to use again as a toilet
is  - FOOD! Of course! Cats are clean animals, and do not mix food and loo
areas. (their loo). So never put food near loo. In same respect, cats will
not go to the toilet near the food. So now, all you need to do once all is
celaned is to rub some dry food on the surfice, and/or place a dish with dry
cat food over the alleged spot. Cats will now regard this spot as food area,
and not use it as a toilet. Bear in mind, that area HAS to be clean
thoroughly fist, or will else smell like a toilet - and not like food!

So once again, the steps are:
- Biological washing powder in water/enzyme spray
-Vinegar
-Downy
-Dry food

3. Depending on size of your house/flat you might wanna add new tray if you
want to in a different part of house. Especially if you are going to ban the
cat from the bedroom, then place a cat litter near the door for a while and
slowly move it towards the place you want it to stay in.

I dont agree that you shouldnt show your cat where litter tray is, thats
nonsence. How wil the cat know if you dont show it. So take your kitty, and
take her to a litter tray. Rub the litter with her paws gently, and talk
sweetly. She will run away , but at least she will get the smell and idea.
Do it couple of times so she gets the message. Priase her if she uses the
tray.

Just asking your cat to go in the tray will not help for a simeple reason -
cats do not speak English. They speak their own language, so unless you know
it, they will only understand your tone of voice, (they tend to respong
better to high pitched childish voices so use that). (Im not saying they
cant learn some words, sure they can, mine all know their name, and the word
"go out" and "food" but only through repetition, and partially through my
actions.) But with litter, you do need some training first before you ask
them politely to use the tray. Gosh, the number of times I begged them to
wash the dishes,.... and NOTHING! :)

SO jus keep remembering, cats work on smell, so that is the area you need to
work on :)

Let me know how it goes
Jane :)
Shy Guy - 26 Jan 2006 06:07 GMT
I really appreciate your informative reply, Jane.  Great step by step
suggestions.
Shy Guy

> Hi "Shy Guy"
>
[quoted text clipped - 109 lines]
> Let me know how it goes
> Jane :)
 
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