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Cat Forum / General Topics / December 2005cat introduction problems
Hi, I've been having troubles introducing my year and a half old female tortie to my roommates two large black and white males who are both four years old. I've been living here four months and have to keep my kitty shut up in my room because she chases them. My cat isn't mean, or vicious, but the two larger cats are very shy and scared, and instead of confronting her, they run and hide and are scared to death, so obviously she chases them. She has never every actually physically hurt them, but my roommate calls her "mean", "vicious", "violent", and "a.shole". Now my roommate has gotten a new little two month old male tabby kitten, and she refuses to let me bring my cat near it. I have done so when she was away, and my cat has no problems with the kitten. In fact, mine seems to get along with it better than her own cats do. I'd like some impartial input. Who's felines are the problem, and is there any way to fix it or help? I don't like keeping my cat locked up all the time, she's lonely and she's lived with other cats before. -Tyu > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > -Tyu Hi Tyu, I don't think there's any benefit in saying whose cat(s) is/are the problem. All the cats *and* their owners have a problem. Until the owners are prepared to work together to resolve the problem, there is unlikely to be a satisfactory resolution. To be quite honest, I believe there is some territorial difficulty between you and your flatmate, as well as the cats' own territorial issues. How long has your flatmate lived there? Does she resent your presence? Don't take this too personally; it is a normal reaction. There may well have been some tension even if you didn't have cats. Please forget about placing blame. It really isn't helpful. Try and talk to your flatmate quietly about the problems you are both having. As you have only been in this flat for 4 mths, I suspect your flatmate and her cats were there before? If this is the case, her cats will resent the arrival of your incoming cat. Between her two cats, one of them will be more dominant. This must be allowed to continue. Her other cat will be in 2nd place ... your cat will be in 3rd place ... her new kitten will be in 4th place. Without more information - and cooperation - I cannot offer more advice. Do try and discuss it calmly so that you come to an agreement about easing the problem. Any solution will require hard work and committment from both of you. You both love cats so you have one good thing in common. For the sake of your cats, use this common passion to resolve your problems. Spider We have a tortie, she does the same thing with a larger longhair, the same with one of our domestic shorthairs and sometimes she'll swipe at a domestic tiger-that's the color, maybe it's a tabby. She was the first cat here, so territorial issues I think. Maybe that's what you have or maybe something else, it's a complex breed.  Signature"Other than telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and now, die, I think the Republicans have done a fine job of getting government out of our personal lives." > >> Hi, [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > > Spider my neighbor had a cat who had trouble meeting a girlfriend. so i introduced him to my boss's cat, and they've been together for 4 years now. > We have a tortie, she does the same thing with a larger longhair, the same > with one of our domestic shorthairs and sometimes she'll swipe at a domestic > tiger-that's the color, maybe it's a tabby. She was the first cat here, so > territorial issues I think. Maybe that's what you have or maybe something > else, it's a complex breed. Yeah, I've heard they're rather tempermental, but I only notice it when I touch her back feet or her tummy. My vet said she was the nicest tortie she's ever seen ^^;; I'm not sure if it's territorial issues. The other two cats have been here for over a year, and myself and my cat have only been here since the beginning of september. I suppose that they would be the dominant ones, but they run and hide and hiss when she comes near instead of just swatting her so it seems like they're letting her be the dominant. Basically all I wanted to know, is this normal cat behaviour? It's not that my roommate and I don't want to work together, it's the cats that don't. She's been here for a year, this is her appartment and she's letting me stay with her for a while. I can see how you might think there is tension and resentment between us, if we were college students rooming together who had just met, but we've been friends for 10 years. I doubt we're the issue. The only problem we have, is that we don't know how to get them to get along. I'm sorry if I gave the impression of wanting to place blame. I'm not trying to blame anyone or any cat. I would just like to know if it's normal for them to act this way. I don't really know what to think of the situation. My cat has never been like this towards any other cats before, but I've also never met any cats that act the way hers do either so I'm not sure why this is happening between them and why they won't get over it. The new kitten is perfectly fine with my cat and vice versa, and her cats seem fine with the kitten also. I don't know what to do about the situation. edies says that your roommate is hinting that you should move out. she got the new kitten as another "hint" to you that you don't fit in, as martha stewart says. > Basically all I wanted to know, is this normal cat behaviour? It's not > that my roommate and I don't want to work together, it's the cats that [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > versa, and her cats seem fine with the kitten also. I don't know what to > do about the situation. Hi again Tyu, :~) Sorry if I picked up the wrong vibes about your domestic situation, but it was just how your post read, with the name-calling and so on. :~) It is good that you're living with a long term friend, because understanding and cooperation are very important as you deal with this. As you will have gathered from the other posts, torteshell cats are notoriously neurotic. Having said that, the behaviour you're seeing between two or more introduced cats is perfectly natural. I am training my second torteshell at the moment, in tandem with training a silver tabby. The tortie is called Cheetah, and the tabby is Panther. Both came to me as 8 wk old kittens. I had Cheetah first and she loved me to bits and we bonded very well. Her response to training was steady, give or take the odd wrinkle. Then I added Panther to the equation. To say they didn't get on would be an understatement. Panther was fairly laid back at first, but Cheetah was *so* jealous and hurt that the resultant cat spats made Panther edgy, too. This, of course, was a natural first reaction. With careful handling, both cats now get along very well and their training is coming along in leaps and bounds. You and your friend really do need to acknowledge the feline dominance/territorial issue. The very fact that the new kitten is accepted by all the existing cats is a sign that they perceive her to be neutral and inoffensive. It may seem necessary to segregate your cat at the moment, but it is not an ideal situation as it reinforces this troublesome behaviour. The fact that your friend's cats run and hide when your Tortie appears does not materially alter the territorial model - 'fight or flight' are both valid sides of the fear/adrenalin coin. Her cats may not even be afraid of your Tortie, but afraid of the situation. Big changes in domestic/territorial arrangements are deeply stressful to cats. I think it could be helpful to introduce just one of your friend's cats to your Tortie, preferably her more dominant cat. Have some treats ready for them, but offer your friend's cat treats first .. then treat your Tortie. (This will teach her her place in the feline 'pecking order'). This may be hard for you, but you will need to admonish Tortie if she reacts badly. Let her see you comfort Cat 1 if Cat 1 is frightened. Heartily praise any good behaviour, however slight, but when both cats are good, praise Friend's cat (Cat 1) first, then Tortie. You will, of course, need to do this with your Friend's second cat (Cat 2) as well. Allow Tortie to enter the main room. Again, scold any bad reaction, praise any positive or even passive behaviour. It will take time and patience, but it will pay dividends. Whilst you're living together, and for the sake of this exercise, you and your friend should treat all the cats as dual-ownership, both of you feeling comfortable with praising or scolding each others' cat(s). I don't know what feeding arrangements you have at the moment, but if your friend's cats are fed first, then Tortie, then Kitten, it will also reinforce the pecking order. To make it plainer, the cats can eat at the same time, but their dishes should be put down in dominance order. At the very top of the pecking order are your friend, then you. You will be perceived as Top Cats .. then Cat 1 .. then Cat 2 .. then Tortie .. then Kitten. This may seem like a lot of trouble, but it puts you and your friend back in control. The cats will understand this very well and will respond to you better. Hope this is of some help. Spider I've actually tried to do it one at a time, holding the scared cats while Chirako is around them, but she's the only one who is interested in treats during this time. The boys curl up as small as they possibly can, hide their eyes and flatten their ears back. I try to give them treats but they don't even acknowledge them. Chirako, meanwhile, plays with the scratching post and with toys while I'm holding the boys. She sniffs them, and doesn't chase them if they don't run. For feeding, I feed Chirako in my room, because when she's out in the rest of the house, she's not really interested in eating. She wants to play. >I think it > could be helpful to introduce just one of your friend's cats to your Tortie, [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Hope this is of some help. > Spider Hi Tyu, Thanks for responding. Your friend's cats are obviously real scaredy cats, poor things. It sounds as if you have started to do the right things. Do persist, despite the fact that they give you little encouragement. It's good that your friend's cats allow you to hold them. I'm sure a few more cuddles with them would help make them feel less threatened. Chirako doesn't seem to mind in the least! I am also encouraged that Chirako doesn't chase the other cats unless they run. I'm sure this is where the answer lies. Perhaps if Chirako spent more (supervised) time in the main room with them, just playing as you described, they would learn that she's not a threat .. and perhaps even become relaxed enough to be curious about her play. Chirako is obviously a playful cat and would probably like to play with them. However, they see her bounding up to them as threatening, rather than playful. Try feeding Chirako just before releasing her into the main room, as this will make her calmer. I have noticed that my cats are often hyper-active when hungry; this is because they are obliged in the wild to actively hunt for their food (unlike us, who droop or snooze when hungry). Another method you could try is sitting down with and petting Chirako (restraining her discreetly so she's no threat to them), while your friend's cats have a chance to relax and explore. This, when repeated a few times, should reassure the boys that she's just a soft, old pussycat *and* controllable. Of course, this can only be effective if Chirako enjoys being cuddled and will stay put willingly. If she growls and struggles to get away from you, this is obviously going to send the wrong signals! I don't know how much you handle your collective cats. It is certainly true that well-handled (even over-handled) cats cope far better with new people/cat introductions. They are generally much less stressed. If you are (or feel you are) too busy to handle them frequently and they're mostly left to stooge around and stimulate themselves, then the wilder side of their nature - and boredom - will prevail. You'll be stuck with this behaviour unless *they* choose to change it. Please do not read the above as any kind of admonishment :-) ; that is by no means my intention. I have noticed, though, that my trained and much-handled cats (Cheetah especially) will come to me for just a moments' attention before going out to play. It's as if they're saying "I know you're busy, but please be friendly just before I go out". I find it really touching that, because I work at understanding my cats, they seem to try and understand me. I do hope you can find a way of helping your cats adjust to their situation. Kind regards, Spider > I've actually tried to do it one at a time, holding the scared cats > while Chirako is around them, but she's the only one who is interested [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Hope this is of some help. > > Spider Hmm, all of them are good ideas, however, whether I'm holding Chirako or not, (I usually have her on a leash when she's out) the other two refuse to come down out of the window of their own free will. They'll stay up there for hours if they have to. Is there any harm in the cats hissing and hitting each other? My roommate punishes the other cats for hissing at the kitten, she thinks it's teaching him bad things, and wants to teach him that it's not alright to hiss and swat. She's used to two very well behaved cats (ragdolls) who just lay around and want to cuddle, and thinks that the new kitten will turn out the same way if she punishes "bad" behaviour like hissing and swatting. They aren't the same breed so I know the kitten will turn out to be what she thinks is "bad", doing what normal cats do. Also, I'm wondering what kind of effect it has on a cat to be punished for hissing and swatting by locking it up in a carrier for an hour. Will the cat resent the carrier, the cat it hissed at, and the owner? Cat #2 is punished like this alot. Cat #1 gets along fine with the kitten, but Cat #2 is taking a little longer and is more physical in his expressions. I don't think Cat #2 would hurt the kitten, he smacks it on the head and runs. How much can a kitten take before a bigger cat is actually hurting it? I think my roommate thinks kittens are made of glass. She's eased up a bit since I've shown her that they're very resiliant to falling and roughhousing, but still thinks that Cat #2 and Chirako (who barely hisses at the kitten) will hurt it. If its not alright to hisses and swats, then I better get on the ball with mine then... :-) Hobbes has finally started to stand up for himself with Ornery (the new kid in the house). He used to run and hide now he hisses and swats at him. Now to get Mama to put Ornery in his place... > Hmm, all of them are good ideas, however, whether I'm holding Chirako > or not, (I usually have her on a leash when she's out) the other two [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > resiliant to falling and roughhousing, but still thinks that Cat #2 and > Chirako (who barely hisses at the kitten) will hurt it. > Hmm, all of them are good ideas, however, whether I'm holding Chirako > or not, (I usually have her on a leash when she's out) the other two > refuse to come down out of the window of their own free will. They'll > stay up there for hours if they have to. This is where your infinite supply of patience comes in! Although there seems to be no positive action at the moment, at least the boys are in the same room as Chirako without running away. It is not at all unusual for nervous cats to 'roost' in high places, and this obviously makes them more comfortable. Presumably, they can observe Chirako from their position and will gradually learn that she's less and less a threat to them. > Is there any harm in the cats hissing and hitting each other? My > roommate punishes the other cats for hissing at the kitten, she thinks [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > kitten will turn out to be what she thinks is "bad", doing what normal > cats do. It is quite natural for cats to hiss, spit and swat at each other when dealing with an interloper or other offensive cat. A mother cat will even swat her own kitten if it is becoming irritating. However, cats have such a comprehensive armoury that they very rarely risk a fight to the death. Along with hissing and swatting, there is usually a lot of posing (walking sideways with hair raised, trying to create a bigger profile), and this 'measuring up' is usually sufficient to persuade one cat to back down. It can be quite worrying for us to observe, but is not that much of a problem in the short term. After a real spat with claws flying, it is worth checking each cats' eyes for scratches .. naturally, do this in dominance order. Do not take an eye injury lightly - go straight to the vet. A wounded eye can become ulcerated and ultimately lost if treatment isn't prompt. It does concern me that your friend is misjudging a normal kitten's behaviour and punishing it. Of course a 'natural' kitten is going to be more active and feisty than a highly bred, passive breed. (This also begins to explain some of your problems with Chirako!). In order to maintain a harmonious feline household, of course the kitten will have to be trained and calmed down, but this should be done gently (through play, if possible) so that the poor little scrap gets to enjoy its kittenhood. I am by no means 'soft' with my kittens when I'm training them - I have been known to smack gently (two or three fingers is enough at the rear end) when a cat is really naughty, but not before I've demonstrated what I want and said "no" at least three times. Training requires fairness as well as firmness. > Also, I'm wondering what kind of effect it has on a cat to be punished > for hissing and swatting by locking it up in a carrier for an hour. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > resiliant to falling and roughhousing, but still thinks that Cat #2 and > Chirako (who barely hisses at the kitten) will hurt it. I really don't like the sound of this! Apart from being psychologically brutal, your friend is interfering with the cats' pecking order. The kitten is cat #4, and needs to learn its place. Cat#2 may need its temper checked, but there are kinder ways of going about it which won't diminish its dominance in the pecking order. In many ways, Cat#2's behaviour is exactly the show of spunk that you wish for in its' treatment of Chirako. He's being a bit cowardly in picking on a kitten, but at least it shows he can stand up for himself. Cat#2 should be firmly admonished but, unless his attack is severe, no more than that. If your friend must give Cat#2 a custodial sentence, she should warn him first .. put him in the carrier on the *next* offence, but only for about 10 minutes. Then let him out and see how he behaves. Many custodial sentences of 10 minutes will be worth 2 of an hours' duration. You're right, of course, that being locked in a carrier for an hour is likely to cause damaging resentment. If nothing else, it will cause deep stress whenever Cat#2 needs a vet trip. Probably your friend is over protective of kitten. This is not necessarily a bad thing; it shows a deep level of caring. Alas, it is just a little unbalanced. As you say, kittens are resiliant. If they are made of glass, it's the reinforced kind :~). Of course they can be injured, but not by a scaredy cat who simply smacks it on the head and runs away. The kitten is more likely to die laughing! Before I sign off this time, let me give you some dominance-spotting behaviour guidelines: You may see one cat lick another and think that the licking cat is subservient. This is human psychology. In the cat world, the dominant cat licks. Examples include the mother cat licking her kitten, and the male cat licking his female before mounting her. During a fight, the cat prone on the ground *appears* to be subservient or just plain losing. In truth, the prone cat has the full use of its armoury (teeth and all four sets of claws). The sitting/upright cat has only its teeth and (usually) one set of claws to fight with. Now, doesn't that turn the picture around?! Hope this helps, Spider |
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