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Cat Forum / General Topics / October 2005Cat positive to FeLV
Hello everybody I'm from Italy, I already posted a message on the italian cat newsgroup, but I'd really like to submit the same problem also to you. I live with my family in a flat. My building is surrounded by small garden. At the beginning of August I've found there a cat, aged 2-3 years (no more), male, already neutered. It was definitively family-owned and then most probably abandoned. But he's charming, kind, cute! He's a very, very good fellow with a fantastic behaviour! ...I cannot really understand why abandoning such a lovely cat. I asked around, but nobody came to seek him during the last month... In the meanwhile he decided to stop permanently into the garden. I was almost convinced to keep it and bring it at home. There I already have a cat (male, neutered, 4 years), who lives inside my house and never leaves it. So, I first brought the "new" one to the vet. He initially said it was ok... No intestinal parasites, no flu, etc. Then he suggested to test him for FIV/FeLV. He ran the ELISA test and found the cat positive to Leukemia. That was really sad news. My cat at home is negative to both feline aids and leukemia so I asked about vaccination, but the vet warned me that it is not 100% sure and there's about 1-2/10.000 possibilities that the vaccine may give health problems (may also develop a tumor). I do not really want to take those risks. Nevertheless the vet suggested me to wait about 6 months and repeat the test or take a more accurate one. There's a slim chance that the cat might result negative, as the ELISA test can only determine if there's a presence of antibodies in one cat organism, but tells nothing about his effective illness or status of virus spreading (if any). If the cat will result negative, said the doc, then I could bring him into home safely. In the meanwhile, I'm giving hospitality to the "newcomer" inside my garage... I don't keep my car inside it, it is large enough (about >20mq), with a safe and almost humidity-free enviroenment. We feed the cat regularly and he can rest with doors closed overnight so he can sleep well, undisturbed by other animals. He seems to enjoy the situation: during the day he's very playful and at a first glance he always appears to have a very good health! What worries me are the two following perspectives, on which the doctor was a little unclear: 1) I know that there's no definitive cure for FeLV, although some cats may survive and develop a self-immunity. While in other cats, who still don't die, the illness goes in a latent state and then it may not be detected by the ELISA test. A more accurate and expensive test in laboratory perhaps could? I believe yes... but is there actually a chance that this cat could definitively and permanently result negative one day and forever? During these 6 months, can I give him something to strenghten its immunitary system? I was thinking about Aloe Vera... Does anyone know which kind and dilution to use? The vet on the other hand didn't propose anything... 2) Assuming the lucky chance that the cat will result fully negative at the end of the 6 months... Will it be really safe to bring it at home where he will meet the other (healthy) cat? Or there will be still a chance to contaminate him somehow? Any help with this matter will be sincerely appreciated. We went through the same thing around March. We had 5 cats when we developed a fondness for a stray. He ended up hurting his paw which led to his visit to the vet. He told us he had leukemia...He said there are treatments but they were expensive with no sure way of knowing he would live. My husband and I were on very fixed income and no other place to keep the sick one separate from our others, so we, reluctantly, put him to sleep... There is always a chance he may live a long life (not a normal long life)and, my own personal feelings, if you have a place and finances to keep up with his treatment, I would go for it... My best to you! g'day ronin i was interested in your story. almost sounds like you could end up with the perfect situation of one indoor cat and one outdoor, never without a cat anywhere! anyhow, i was looking around the internet and found this: http://www.neighborhoodcats.org/info/releasing.htm here's an extract of the pertinent points: For FeLV, again the ELISA test is almost always the initial test used. In contrast to FIV, the FeLV ELISA does not detect antibodies, but whether the antigen of the virus is present in the blood. In other words, a positive test result indicates the presence of the actual FeLV virus in the blood. But, the test is extremely sensitive and is prone to false positives from improper handling. In addition, a cat in the early stages of FeLV infection can still fight it off. The disease does not take permanent hold until it enters the cat's white blood cells, which only another type of test, the IFA test (Immunofluoresence Assay, also known as the Hardy test) can determine. The IFA test must be performed at a lab and is more expensive. Consequently, if a cat appears otherwise healthy, a positive ELISA test should always be confirmed with an IFA test. Only if other severe pathological symptoms of FeLV are present should an initial positive ELISA ever be relied upon alone. good luck with whatever you choose; does your cat have a name? cheers jils > Hello everybody > [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > > Any help with this matter will be sincerely appreciated. > In contrast to FIV, the FeLV ELISA does not detect antibodies, but > whether the antigen of the virus is present in the blood. In other > words, a positive test result indicates the presence of the actual FeLV > virus in the blood. That's not entirely accurate. A cat can be antigen positive but virus negative (not contagious). Such is the case in many discordant ELISA+/IFA- tests. This is why *all* ELISA+ results *must* be confirmed by IFA. Phil Only if other severe pathological symptoms > of FeLV are present should an initial positive ELISA ever be relied upon > alone. An ELISA+ should *never* be relied upon alone. A cat may be ELISA+ but symptomatic from other *treatable* disease processes unrelated to FeLV. Many ELISA+ cats that were probably IFA- are needless killed because the ELISA was relied upon alone. Phil There is such a thing as a " false positive" meaning that the cat will test positive for feline leukemia and not have it. If you go to the site: www.belfield.com and click on the underlined section on the middle of the page, another page will pop up. When it does, scroll down the page and to the right are articles, click on the one on Leukemia. Dr. W.O. Belfield, DVM talks more about it. Also, there is a cure for cats who have FeLV(even those seriously ill with it). It's Transfer Factor Plus. 1-3 capsules a day(give with food).Non-toxic even in megadoses. I think its wonderful you're trying to give this little guy a chance... A couple of thoughts (I have 2 pos FELV & 3 neg all of whom were strays)... 1) You should get IFA test done as well--its a little more definitive--its a blood test sent out to lab. 2) FELV+ cats can live long, happy lives so beware of anyone telling you that you should euthanize... Most of the cats who die from this condition die as kittens so it is a good sign that your guy is already 4 years old 3) After a good deal of research, I chose to vaccinate my neg cats & mix. My 3 neg cats had lived with one of my pos for years before I knew she was pos so it seemed safe to continue mixing (the negs were not vaccinated for FELV for all those years)... but I know that is a very personal decision... 4) Many people there use supplements and interferon for their pos cats but other than some vitamins the vet gave me, I have not done more than giving them some good quality food and watching for any signs of illness. Remember, the FELV virus does not actually kill the cat, rather, it allows opportunistic conditions to become more serious--upper respiratory, urinary tract, etc. Also, with some strains of the virus, a cat is more susceptible to certain types of cancer. 5) There is a wonderful web site that can give you lots of info inclucing thoughts about mixing... www.felineleukemia.org There is a link to join a 'talk' group (via e-mail)--its a little tricky to join so let me know if you have problems--but you will get lots of answers to all of your questions from folks who like yourself, found themselves with an FELV+ cat as well as from folks who do rescue... Finally, I commend you on your English... I wish that more people here in US would speak a second language as well as you do! > Hello everybody > [quoted text clipped - 69 lines] > > Any help with this matter will be sincerely appreciated. Hello Chris, thank you very much for your thoughts > 1) You should get IFA test done as well--its a little more definitive--its > a blood test sent out to lab. yes, I've heard of this test, but the vet suggested to wait six months. But is it a blood test? What if the virus is already inside the bone marrow? Does the test detect its presence? > 2) FELV+ cats can live long, happy lives so beware of anyone telling you > that you should euthanize... Most of the cats who die from this condition > die as kittens so it is a good sign that your guy is already 4 years old No wait, the cat I've already at home is 4 1/2. The newcomer found positive is probably 2-3 and absolutely no more than that. Anyway, I will never euthanize a cat who enjoys life as this one do. He shows no signs of illness at all. He eats, drinks, "goes to the toilet", plays, sleeps and does all those marvellous things that make their species unique. > 3) After a good deal of research, I chose to vaccinate my neg cats & mix. > My 3 neg cats had lived with one of my pos for years before I knew she was > pos so it seemed safe to continue mixing (the negs were not vaccinated for > FELV for all those years)... but I know that is a very personal > decision... Yes, I understand. But you were unaware of the positiveness of the that cat. In other words, you had to deal with an existing situation, while I must solve One problem without taking the risk to have Two to deal with in the future... > 4) Many people there use supplements and interferon for their pos cats but > other than some vitamins the vet gave me, I have not done more than giving [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > urinary tract, etc. Also, with some strains of the virus, a cat is more > susceptible to certain types of cancer. Yes, the vet already told me this. Basically, the virus weakens the immunitary system of the cat, making him more prone to become ill and defenseless. It is also common that cats in the terminal state might develop some kinds of tumor. That's the really bad part. While one can cure or prevent diseases, it isnt' the same for tumors. > 5) There is a wonderful web site that can give you lots of info inclucing > thoughts about mixing... > www.felineleukemia.org yes... I'm surfing everything in these days and that website is very, very interesting. Plus, there's an italian woman who done the same in Italy: http://www.leucemiafelina.org/ . I'm going to contact her soon. > There is a link to join a 'talk' group (via e-mail)--its a little tricky > to join so let me know if you have problems--but you will get lots of > answers to all of your questions from folks who like yourself, found > themselves with an FELV+ cat as well as from folks who do rescue... You mean the mailing list? Yes I noticed it.... If you raccomand it I will join for sure. Thanks very much. > Finally, I commend you on your English... I wish that more people here in > US would speak a second language as well as you do! Thanks also for the compliments, but I'm well aware that my english is everything but perfect (and you didn't hear me speak it either) Best, Fulvio > Hello Chris, > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > is it a blood test? What if the virus is already inside the bone marrow? > Does the test detect its presence? Yes. The IFA detects FeLV p27 antigen in leukocytes and platelets. A positive IFA result indicates a productive FeLV infection in the bone marrow cells-- although some IFA+ cats extinguish the infection and become immune. The ELISA only detects circulating p27 antigen in the blood. A positive ELISA does not necessarily indicate bone marrow infection or viremia. Many if not most ELISA+ cats are IFA negative and eventually clear the virus. As I said previously, it takes about a month to infect the bone marrow but it could take as long as 12 weeks in some cats. You don't have to wait 6 months. > > 2) FELV+ cats can live long, happy lives so beware of anyone telling you > > that you should euthanize... Absolutely. "Ronin" <(debris)@(email).(it)> wrote in message news:433dd7a1$0$32459$4fafbaef@reader1.news.tin.it... > Hello everybody > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > illness or status of virus spreading (if any). If the cat will result > negative, said the doc, then I could bring him into home safely. Your vet is half right- ELISA positives should be confirmed by an IFA because an ELISA+ doesn't necessarily indicate a marrow-origin infection. An ELISA+ could mean either he's in the process of clearing the virus or developing a persistent infection or he's harboring the virus is some *nonmyloid* compartment (not infectious to other cats)-- or the test wasn't run properly (most common). Most cats clear their initial infection and become immune. The part your vet was wrong about is antibodies. The ELISA and IFA for FeLV both test for viral *antigen* not antibodies. The ELISA and Western Blot for *FIV* both test for antibodies because the amount of antigen necessary to cause infection is much to small to be detected by either test. > In the meanwhile, I'm giving hospitality to the "newcomer" inside my > garage... I don't keep my car inside it, it is large enough (about >20mq), [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > 1) I know that there's no definitive cure for FeLV, although some cats may > survive and develop a self-immunity. The vast majority of cats clear the virus and become immune. Because of his age, I'd say he has an excellent chance of clearing the virus. Resistance develops with age. Cats over 16 weeks are not easily infected. Of course age-related resistance isn't absolute. A large viral load injected directly into the bloodstream from a bite wound or stress or steroid therapy could overcome the cat's resistance. While in other cats, who still don't > die, The outcome after infection is probably influenced by the cat's cell-mediated immune response- but probably more by the virus subgroup. All FeLV-infected cats are infected with FeLV-A- which causes immunosupression and is very slow to cause disease by itself. Cats infected with only FeLV-A can and do live many healthy years after infection and are the most likely to clear or extinguish the virus. FeLV-B causes neoplastic diseases (i.e., tumors and other abnormal tissue growths), and FeLV-C causes severe anemia. Only FeLV-A is transmitted contagiously between cats. The other two subgroups are generated within the cat by recombination with FeLV-A and the cat's own FeLV sequences (all cats have them). So, FeLV is not necessary an immediate death sentence. the illness goes in a latent state and then it may not be detected by > the ELISA test. A more accurate and expensive test in laboratory perhaps > could? PCR of bone marrow cells or bone marrow reactivation test. But these tests aren't really necessary unless you have a large population. Latent infections can't be detected by *either* the ELISA or the IFA because viral antigen isn't produced or released during latency. For this reason, cats with latent infections *are not* infectious to other cats. Most cats- in fact the overwhelming vast majority of cats with latent infections eventually clear the virus. They mount a strong cell-mediated immune response against the virus that drives the virus into latency instead of infection. This strong CMI just gets stronger and eventually extinguishes the virus. However, stress or steroid therapy can reactivate a latent infection before the virus is extinguished. I believe yes... but is there actually a chance that this cat could > definitively and permanently result negative one day and forever? Absolutely! Most cats *do* clear the virus. Otherwise FeLV would rapidly deplete the general feline population of the world! Actually, the infection rate has been declining over the past 20 years. The FeLV vaccine is *not* responsible for the decline because it began before the first FeLV vaccine was introduced in 1985. During > these 6 months, can I give him something to strenghten its immunitary > system? I was thinking about Aloe Vera... Does anyone know which kind and > dilution to use? The vet on the other hand didn't propose anything... Forget the Aloe Vera- if you give him anything give him recombinant human interferon-alpha (interferon-IFN-a) at about 30 IU a day, 7 days on/7 days off. If you mix it up the dilution yourself its very inexpensive. Just get a script from your vet for a the 3 million IU vial and buy the interferon at any human pharmacy-- its about 1/5 the cost. If you go this route I'll explain how to dilute it down to 30 IU/ml-- its easy. Early treatment with rh-IFN-a might stimulate some early events in the immune cascade-- which might lead to a systemic response that could extinguish the virus before it reaches the bone marrow. There's a new Feline Interferon available in Europe that might be even more effective. > 2) Assuming the lucky chance that the cat will result fully negative at the > end of the 6 months... Will it be really safe to bring it at home where he > will meet the other (healthy) cat? Or there will be still a chance to > contaminate him somehow? You don't have to wait 6 months to retest him with the IFA. The virus takes about a month to infect the bone marrow- although it could take 12 weeks in some cats. You can have him retested with the IFA in about a month. Run another ELISA on the same day your vet draws blood to send out for the IFA-- he might clear the virus by then. If the IFA comes back + there's still a chance that he's in the process of clearing the virus and becoming immune- retest him again in another 3 months. I've seen cats take as long as 6-12 months to finally test negative on the IFA-- so a + IFA doesn't always mean the cat is infected for life. Many cats test ELISA+/IFA- These cat's are usually not infectious to other cats. Negative ELISAs are highly reliably because they're incredibly sensitive- but that same incredible sensitivity is what makes ELISA+ unreliable. If he retests negative on the ELISA-- its highly probable that he is indeed negative. > Any help with this matter will be sincerely appreciated. I think it may be a good idea to find a vet who knows a little more about FeLV than your present vet. Keep the faith. Best of luck, Ciao, Phil. PS: Do you live anywhere near the Torre Argentina ruins in Rome? I *gotta* adopt one of those cats!!! ;-) There is one other point that was not touched on, I suppose because it wasn't what was asked. When we fed the sick stray, there was always the possibility the germs would go on us. We wouldn't get sick, but we could bring it to our other cats. So it was fed him and wash our hands pretty well. Keep that in mind while you are doing it, you don't need both cats to be sick.  Signature"Other than telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and now, die, I think the Republicans have done a fine job of getting government out of our personal lives." > > "Ronin" <(debris)@(email).(it)> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 203 lines] > *gotta* > adopt one of those cats!!! ;-) > There is one other point that was not touched on, I suppose because it > wasn't what was asked. When we fed the sick stray, there was always the > possibility the germs would go on us. We wouldn't get sick, but we could > bring it to our other cats. Unlikely. FeLV is a very fragile virus and does not survive very long outside the body unless its kept moist. Inactivation begins immediately as soon as the virus leaves the body. I'm only repeating what our vet told us. I think the other cats knew he was sick or a threat because they would hiss and bare their fangs. Signature"Other than telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and now, die, I think the Republicans have done a fine job of getting government out of our personal lives." > >> There is one other point that was not touched on, I suppose because it [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > outside the body unless its kept moist. Inactivation begins immediately as > soon as the virus leaves the body. > I'm only repeating what our vet told us. Better find a more informed vet. I think the other cats knew he was > sick or a threat because they would hiss and bare their fangs. If he had an illness-maybe. But other cats detecting FeLV: NO. The problem between the cats was more likely a territorial issue. > So it was fed him and wash our hands > pretty well. Keep that in mind while you are doing it, you don't need both > cats to be sick. Yes, I already do that - thanks anyway for warining other potential readers However, I've read that FeLV virus is very unstable and won't survive much longer outside the host. That's not a good reason to not wash my hands or my clothes... Phil, I really, really deeply thank you for your post! > The part your vet was wrong about is antibodies. The ELISA and IFA for > FeLV > both test for viral *antigen* not antibodies. The ELISA and Western Blot > for *FIV* both test for antibodies because the amount of antigen necessary > to cause infection is much to small to be detected by either test. sorry, that's actually a mistake of mine the doc told me about antigens... I made confusion and wrote antibodies (also because of my english, I'm sorry - actually, I do know the difference between the two terms) I agree however that I should hear some other vet. Not just because the present one is bad - he's not in fact - but it might be good to have a second opinion. I'm thinking to go the local University where there's a public veterinary clinic. There they have also a well equipped laboratory were they do the IFA test. > The outcome after infection is probably influenced by the cat's > cell-mediated immune response- but probably more by the virus subgroup. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > can and do live many healthy years after infection and are the most likely > to clear or extinguish the virus. A cat infected with FeLV-A only can infect other cats during this long time period, can't it? How I do know if one cat has developed A, B or C subgroup? Does the IFA tell me? > PCR of bone marrow cells or bone marrow reactivation test. But these > tests > aren't really necessary unless you have a large population. Why? If the cat has something in his bone marrow and then, after several years, it spreads again as leukemia could it at that point become infective again? The fact that most cats clear the virus when it goes into a latent state doesn't mean that this is always tru, does it? > Forget the Aloe Vera- if you give him anything give him recombinant human > interferon-alpha (interferon-IFN-a) at about 30 IU a day, 7 days on/7 days [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > the bone marrow. There's a new Feline Interferon available in Europe that > might be even more effective. that's fantastic! Which brand is the new feline interferon you're talking about? At the beginning of the next week I'll phone to the doc and tell him. I could subminister the interferon for a while before bringing the cat to take the IFA. How much do you suggest to wait? A couple of months perhaps? > Keep the faith. I will indeed and after your posting I will more! > PS: Do you live anywhere near the Torre Argentina ruins in Rome? I > *gotta* > adopt one of those cats!!! ;-) ahaha, no I'm not from Rome, although I have many friends there... I live in Lucca, Tuscany, 70km from Florence. There's a very funny BBC documentary about the cats of Rome... it's called ..."The cats of Rome" (you'd never guessed that ehehe!). Very nice to watch, although it's a bit outdated. Best, Fulvio > Phil, > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > (also because of my english, I'm sorry - actually, I do know the difference > between the two terms) You're English is excellent- better than mine and I was born in the USA. You'd be amazed by how many vets make the same mistake! Some vets even think vaccination affects the results of the tests-- which of course it doesn't. > I agree however that I should hear some other vet. Not just because the > present one is bad - he's not in fact - but it might be good to have a > second opinion. I'm thinking to go the local University where there's a > public veterinary clinic. There they have also a well equipped laboratory > were they do the IFA test. A second opinion is always a good idea-- even if the first opinion was favorable. > > The outcome after infection is probably influenced by the cat's > > cell-mediated immune response- but probably more by the virus subgroup. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > A cat infected with FeLV-A only can infect other cats during this long time > period, can't it? Yes. As long as the cat has a productive infection in the bone marrow he is infectious to other cats. FeLV-A is the only subgroup that's transmitted contagiously between cats. FeLV-B and FeLV-C are generated de novo by recombination between the cat's own FeLV sequences and the infecting FeLV-A. > How I do know if one cat has developed A, B or C subgroup? Does the IFA tell > me? No. A special test is required to identify the envelop proteins The envelope protein (gp70) defines the virus subgroup. The test is only available in research labs and some veterinary university diagnostic labs. About 50% of FeLV+ cats are infected with FeLV-A and 49% with a combination of FeLV-A and FeLV-B. The remaining 1% have mixed infections with subgroups ABC or AC. > > PCR of bone marrow cells or bone marrow reactivation test. But these > > tests [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > years, it spreads again as leukemia could it at that point become infective > again? I don't think I've ever heard of a cat reactivating a latent infection more than a year after initial exposure. The fact that most cats clear the virus when it goes into a latent > state doesn't mean that this is always tru, does it? The risk of reactivation of latent FeLV infection is very low. Most cats extinguish their FeLV infection rapidly and are clear of FeLV by 6 to 9 months after exposure. If you're concerned about reactivation of a latent infection, you could have his bone marrow cells tested by PCR-- but I would probably just retest him with a simple in-house ELISA Snap test 6 and 12 months after his last negative test. > > Forget the Aloe Vera- if you give him anything give him recombinant human > > interferon-alpha (interferon-IFN-a) at about 30 IU a day, 7 days on/7 days [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > that's fantastic! Which brand is the new feline interferon you're talking > about? Virbagen Omega. Available from VIRBAC SA in Carros, France. You might need an special import papers if its not sold in Italy. > At the beginning of the next week I'll phone to the doc and tell him. I > could subminister the interferon for a while before bringing the cat to take > the IFA. How much do you suggest to wait? A couple of months perhaps? If you use Virbagen, you have to give him three separate 5-day treatments at day 1, 14, and 60. Virbagen comes in 5 vials of powder and 5 vials of solvent (sodium chloride solution) and must be reconstituted. The dose is 1 MU/kg bodyweight. The injections should be given subcutaneously- so you can give them to your cat yourself at home without having to stress the cat with a numerous trips to the vet. Virbagen isn't cheap. > > Keep the faith. > > I will indeed and after your posting I will more! There's a lot of misinformation circulating about FeLV that panics people and even scares them into killing an otherwise healthy cat. So: you must be careful what you read and believe. I've been working with FeLV cats for >35 years and I can tell you with absolute certainty no one can predict the outcome of an FeLV+ cat-- every cat is different and every cat's immune system responds to the virus differently. I've known FeLV+ cats that were predicted to die in a few months that lived a good quality of life for >6 years! That's why I only believe the *cat* and no one else. > > PS: Do you live anywhere near the Torre Argentina ruins in Rome? I > > *gotta* > > adopt one of those cats!!! ;-) > > ahaha, no I'm not from Rome, although I have many friends there... > I live in Lucca, Tuscany, There's a cat sanctuary somewhere around Tuscany- I forgot the town but its on a Countess' estate. Lucky cats! She probably serves the cats Chianti with their calamari and scungilli. ;-) >70km from Florence. FLORENCE! LOL! The argument that led to my divorce began in Florence. I stood up my wife because I spent the whole day with the feral colony at the Boboli Gardens behind Medici's Palace-- I'll never forget that place! I did the same thing with a feral colony at a hospital in Venice-- forgot all about her-that did it! LOL! Funny story: she wanted to go on a vacation to get me away from cats for a few weeks (I worked in a shelter after work and on weekends) so we could spend some time together. Long story short- she said "me or the cats"-- I think the last thing I said to her was "Arrivederci mala femmina"! LOL! - she flew home from Venice and I flew back to Rome to take a few thousand pictures of the cats all over the ruins. The gattare probably still remember me. I never did make it to Sicily to see my relatives. > There's a very funny BBC documentary about the cats of Rome... it's called > ..."The cats of Rome" (you'd never guessed that ehehe!). Very nice to watch, > although it's a bit outdated. Those cats are a national treasure! I was amazed by the number of tourists that go there to see them. They say some of the Roman cats are ancestors of cats from Caeser's time-- Of course they probably all are -cats in Italy date back thousands of years. I'd still like to adopt one-- next trip-- I'll go alone. Rome passed a law awhile back that makes it illegal to kill a stray or homeless cat. Is that a national law or just Roman? The new Pope is a cat lover, I hear. Too bad he's not Italian. Bono fortuna, Ciao, Phil > Best, > > Fulvio > As long as the cat has a productive infection in the bone marrow he is > infectious to other cats. FeLV-A is the only subgroup that's transmitted > contagiously between cats. FeLV-B and FeLV-C are generated de novo by > recombination between the cat's own FeLV sequences and the infecting > FeLV-A. [....] > I don't think I've ever heard of a cat reactivating a latent infection > more > than a year after initial exposure. Ok, so the IFA can't tell me if the cat has something in the bone marrow (and will test negative if the virus is only inside there and nowhere else). While on the other hand if he has developed a latent form of the viral infection he could infect other cats for a reasonably long time. But that's what I want to avoid... If I will test the cat next month with IFA and he gets positive, I will do another test within 6 months; in the meanwhile I will keep both cats separate just like I'm doing now. But let's now suppose he will luckyly result negative at the first test. Should I bring him immediately at home and let him live with the other cat? (who is ELISA negative, tested a couple of weeks ago). If not, what I should do then? > Virbagen Omega. Available from VIRBAC SA in Carros, France. You might > need > an special import papers if its not sold in Italy. [...] > The injections should be given subcutaneously- so you > can give them to your cat yourself at home without having to stress the > cat > with a numerous trips to the vet. Injections? I thought that interferon could be given also orally. The fact is that I'm not very confident to do injections to humans, imagine to cats... > There's a lot of misinformation circulating about FeLV that panics people > and even scares them into killing an otherwise healthy cat. Yes, of course - I never, ever, thought of killing that kitten! And neither the vet ever suggested to do so. What worried me since he told me of his positiveness was the fact I couldn't keep him at home with the other cat. If I hadn't other healthy cats in my house he would already be here with me! But you understand, it is a bad situation because if I'm not 100% sure that both cats are healthy and nobody can infect the other I won't risk to have two cats potentially ill instead of one. That wouldn't be fair for the sake of the first, negative, cat. > Those cats are a national treasure! I was amazed by the number of > tourists [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > date back thousands of years. I'd still like to adopt one-- next trip-- > I'll go alone. Well it is just like humans after all... we all descend from somewhere in the centuries... You gotta see the cats of Lucca... It is incredible because they all look like the same with minor differencies! (they're all striped in the same beige-black-brown colors, pink noses, white fur on the back part, under the mouth the abdomen etc.). Both my cats, the one living there and the other "positive fellow" are very similar in shape and color. At a long distance they could be mistaken one for another. Leave me a curiosity... If you adopt a cat in Italy is it easy to bring in the US? In some countries I hear that is difficult because they have to test the animal for potential contaminations.... How about the intercontinental flight? It is hard for humans to travel 8-10-12 and more hourse in a plane I can't imagine for a feline... Anyway, if you're planning to come again in Italy you'd be welcome here and we have room for you. Please contact me when you're coming if you like. Also, if you want my phone number please ask me via email. I've also a Skype account. > Rome passed a law awhile back that makes it illegal to kill a stray or > homeless cat. Is that a national law or just Roman? Perhaps you heard about this recent modification of the already existing law about animal protection http://www.parlamento.it/parlam/leggi/04189l.htm Basically it introduced more severe punishment for those who use animals (generally dogs) for fighting purposes. Sadly, from the beginning of the late nineties there were a lot of such episodes occurred in the Country, so the Govt decided to take action. Also they hoped to stop the plague habit of abandoning animals during summertime. But of course no law, human or divine, will change human stupidity or lust for violence. The complete enforcement of such laws is not 100% possible as public officers have to deal also with other priorities. Of course, the local governments (like the one in Rome) might issue specific communal laws which are valid for their territories. As far as I know in Rome they recognized the cats as a "city treasure" and therefore are protected and valorized. Also the role of the "gattare" (which are sadly in extinction) is officialy recognized... Maybe they have some benefit, but I don't know really. I hear that also Florence has a good legislation about cats. I believe, however, that other Countries in Europe are more advanced on such matters than us. Just think that only recently is became possible for pet cemeteries to exist - that's because they reformed the law about the decesead (human & animal) which was really, really outdated. Before the reform you couldn't disperse (in the sea, in a river) the ashes of one relative of yours, just to make an example. Thanks again, Fulvio > > As long as the cat has a productive infection in the bone marrow he is > > infectious to other cats. FeLV-A is the only subgroup that's transmitted [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > While on the other hand if he has developed a latent form of the viral > infection he could infect other cats for a reasonably long time. No. A cat is *not* infectious to other cats during a latent infection because the virus isn't productive and is kept in check by the cat's immune system. The IFA cannot detect latent infections because the virus isn't replicating or releasing antigen. The vast majority of latently infected cats eventually clear the virus. But that's > what I want to avoid... If I will test the cat next month with IFA and he > gets positive, I will do another test within 6 months; in the meanwhile I > will keep both cats separate just like I'm doing now. But let's now suppose > he will luckyly result negative at the first test. Should I bring him > immediately at home and let him live with the other cat? (who is ELISA > negative, tested a couple of weeks ago). If not, what I should do then? If he retests negative on the ELISA he's probably truly negative and its safe to begin the introduction process with your resident cat. Negative ELISA results are extremely reliable- its the ELISA positives that aren't reliable. If your new friend does test positive by IFA, don't give up hope. Even if the virus reaches the bone marrow and he becomes viremic it is still possible for an IFA-positive cat to develop VN antibodies and reject the virus. I know you really want to give your new friend a home without putting your resident cat in jeopardy, and at the same time, I don't want to over-complicate the issue, but since you live near a veterinary university clinic, you might want to get your resident cat tested for virus neutralizing (VN) antibodies to the virus's major envelope glycoprotein 70 (gp70). If he has a high VN antibody titer to gp70 subgroup A, he is probably protected from *all* subgroups and immune to infection because only subgroup A is transmitted from cat to cat-- B and C can't develop without A. Natural resistance (VN antibodies) are better than the vaccine. Although for some unknown reason some cats with low VN antibody titers are also resistant to FeLV infection and some cats with high tirers can become infected- but these instances are the rare exception rather than the rule. You might even want to have your new friend tested for VN antibodies. A high VN antibody titer usually results neutralization of the virus and immunity to reinfection. As I said previously, a postive ELISA and IFA doesn't necessarily mean he's persistenty infected- it could also mean he's in the process of clearing the virus and becoming immune. If the university clinic is fully equipped with a diagnostic lab, you might also want to get both cats tested for Feline Oncornavirus Cell Membrane Antigen (FOCMA) antibodies. Cats with high antibody titers to FOCMA are resistant to developing leukemia and lymphoma regardless of whether they have positive or negative test results for FeLV. This test might give you a little a peace of mind or serve as an early warning. A possibility: Since you said all the cats in your area look the same and FeLV doesn't seem to be endemic, its very possible that the cats born in your area that have the same ancestors or distantly related might have a natural resistance to FeLV. > > Virbagen Omega. Available from VIRBAC SA in Carros, France. You might > > need [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > is that I'm not very confident to do injections to humans, imagine to > cats... Cats are *easier*! Cats don't attach the stress and fear of needles or injections that humans do. Virbagen injections are given *subcutaneously*-- just below the skin like insulin injections-- *not intramuscularly*. Just tap your fingers near the injection site while you're giving the injection- and the cat won't even know he's received an injection! Really, its *very* easy. Your vet can show you how in 5 seconds. After the first time, you'll be a pro! > > There's a lot of misinformation circulating about FeLV that panics people > > and even scares them into killing an otherwise healthy cat. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > two cats potentially ill instead of one. That wouldn't be fair for the sake > of the first, negative, cat. I certainly understand how you feel. But there's another way to look at this situation: If your resident cat doesn't already have virus neutralizing antibodies to FeLV, exposure to the virus would cause him to develop VN antibodies and become immune. That's the main reason why *many* FeLV negative cats that live with FeLV positive cats never become infected. As exposure to FeLV accumulates with age susceptibility to infection simultaneously decreases. But as I said previously, age-related resistance isn't absolute. > > Those cats are a national treasure! I was amazed by the number of > > tourists [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the other "positive fellow" are very similar in shape and color. At a long > distance they could be mistaken one for another. The cats probably have common ancestors. If FeLV isn't endemic in Lucca, and they all have common ancestors, there's a good chance the cats inherited a natural resistance to FeLV-- even they have low VN antibody titers. > Leave me a curiosity... If you adopt a cat in Italy is it easy to bring in > the US? In some countries I hear that is difficult because they have to test > the animal for potential contaminations.... The US is a breeze! The U.S. government doesn't require general certificates of health or quarantine for pets entering the country-- however, the airlines might. But once the cat is here, he's subject to State rabies vaccination laws. I use the Merial Purvax rabies vaccine that doesn't contain adjuvants. How about the intercontinental > flight? It is hard for humans to travel 8-10-12 and more hourse in a plane I > can't imagine for a feline... Naa, a cat can handle a 8 hr direct flight. I'd pay for an additional seat if I had to and take him in the cabin with me. I already have a name picked out for him: Marcus Ailurous - a play on the emperor Marcus Aurelius- "ailuro" means "cat". LOL! > Anyway, if you're planning to come again in Italy you'd be welcome here and > we have room for you. Please contact me when you're coming if you like. > Also, if you want my phone number please ask me via email. I've also a Skype > account. Thanks for the offer but I'd have to be in and out within a couple of days. How about if we met in Rome at the Torre Argentina? I gotta warn you- I speak Itialian in a Siracusa dialect with a Bronx accent. LOL! > > Rome passed a law awhile back that makes it illegal to kill a stray or > > homeless cat. Is that a national law or just Roman? As far as I know in > Rome they recognized the cats as a "city treasure" and therefore are > protected and valorized. The cats made the government an offer they couldn't refuse. LOL! Also the role of the "gattare" (which are sadly in > extinction) is officialy recognized... The gattare can't be extinct! Who takes care of the cats? Ciao, Phil Hi Phil I phoned to the vet today He continues to say that a IFA won't be necessary untile 6 months, but if I really want the cat can be tested anytime. Also, he says he could simultaneously perform a PCR test to the lab. Is this perhaps the test that detects the gp70 protein and thus the presence of a latent infection? Is it still a blood test? As fair as I understood a the phone, the doc said it can be performed in many ways (bone marrow, tissue... blood?) > I know you really want to give your new friend a home without putting your > resident cat in jeopardy, and at the same time, I don't want to > over-complicate the issue, but since you live near a veterinary university > clinic, you might want to get your resident cat tested for virus > neutralizing (VN) antibodies to the virus's major envelope glycoprotein 70 > (gp70). I forgot to mention that my resident cat is extremely unwilling to travel or receive invasive medical attention. He gets very, very aggressive and angry when a vet want to visit him. It is nearly impossible for us to put him in a cat carrier box. The last time he went to the vet for vaccination he scracthed *badly* the vet and two assistants. When we had him tested for ELISA the vet had to come to our home and give him an anhestetic, suddenly, by surprise. He's never aggresive to us or with casual visitors. Apparently, he seems to prefer male humans to females (except my mother)... On the other hand, the positive cat has a very, very better attutude and isn't scared by the vet, likes to travel and never become aggressive. When he was tested for ELISA he didn't say anything when the doc took his blood and wasn't necessary to drug him. The only thing he doens't seem to like are other animals... In fact the next problem will be to let those cats live under the same roof. Perhaps that will be harder than fighting leukemia... Both of the two don't like other cats and are very jealous of us! I hope that one day we'll talk about this issue: at least it will mean that we'll have no more to worry for the leukemia... > A possibility: Since you said all the cats in your area look the same and > FeLV doesn't seem to be endemic, its very possible that the cats born in > your area that have the same ancestors or distantly related might have a > natural resistance to FeLV. A good thinking. But the vet said that in this area of Tuscany, especially the countryside of Lucca, the FeLV is quite spread. This fact seems to be confirmed by some statistics I've found on internet. > Cats are *easier*! Cats don't attach the stress and fear of needles or > injections that humans do. Virbagen injections are given [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > you'll > be a pro! The doc will give me a recipe to buy human interferon and I will dilute it as you suggested. Then I will give it to the cat orally, I prefer. Also, a bottle will cost about 50 USD - while I don't know if the Virbagen will be immediately avaiable to us... Besides, the positive cat appears to have a cold. It sneezes every now and then (generally when he wakes up from sleep or rest)... But what appears to do more frequently is to gulp (?)... I don't know if the term is exact to describe that... It's just like as he were swallowing something even if he has nothing in his mouth. He doesn't do any particular sound when this happens. It's not the same gesture when a cat is going to vomit, totally different. It is more frequent when he's purring. The vet at the phone told me that this could be some throat irritation... How I can check that by myself? When I'll go buy the interferon I want to get also a termometer for animals... > The US is a breeze! The U.S. government doesn't require general > certificates of health or quarantine for pets entering the country-- > however, the airlines might. But once the cat is here, he's subject to > State rabies vaccination laws. I use the Merial Purvax rabies vaccine that > doesn't contain adjuvants. Probably human foreigners are receiving much more attention than animals nowdays. My uncle recently went to LA a couple of months ago and he told that controls at the airport were really a nuisance... Much more than the last time he went in the USA back in 2000. > Naa, a cat can handle a 8 hr direct flight. I'd pay for an additional > seat > if I had to and take him in the cabin with me. I already have a name > picked > out for him: Marcus Ailurous - a play on the emperor Marcus Aurelius- > "ailuro" means "cat". LOL! How about Marcus Catus? :-) I prefer shorter names. My cat at home is named Amon, like the egyptian god. He liked it so much, at the point that he now he's convinced he's a god. The name of the new cat isn't definitive... My father called him Nemo (after Captain Nemo, or better the latin name for "Nobody", which Ulixes used to call himself in Homer's Odissey). > Thanks for the offer but I'd have to be in and out within a couple of > days. > How about if we met in Rome at the Torre Argentina? I gotta warn you- I > speak Itialian in a Siracusa dialect with a Bronx accent. LOL! I don't know if it will be possible, but let me know when you're coming. So, you're from NY? Your parents were from Italy? > The gattare can't be extinct! Who takes care of the cats? well, they are not... Their number is decreasing, though... ciao Hi Phil today the doc gave us a prescription for a Wellferon bottle of 3,000,000 IU interferon. Sad news is that it appears to be out of production?? We couldn't find it in Lucca... Tomorrow we'll have to contact again the vet. When he wrote the recipe he admitted that this was the first time someone asked for it.... (!) > Hi Phil > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > When he wrote the recipe he admitted that this was the first time someone > asked for it.... (!) If 3M IU isn't available, let me know which strengths are available in Italy. Phil > > If 3M IU isn't available, let me know which strengths are available in > Italy. our vet told us to buy the Wellferon-B 3,000,000 IU this morning we switched to Roferon-A 3,000,000 IU which is widely avaiable (and it's also cheaper, about 35$) I understand that maybe the beta interferon isn't much avaiable - or at least aren't avaiable products similar to the Wellferon B... but I don't understand why the vet choosed the beta interferon... isn't the alfa interferon used for cats? Anyway a couple of people on it.discussioni.animali.gatti (the italian equivalent of alt.pet.cats) said that Roferon-A was good for their cat which is FeLV+ since several years. Tomorrow I'll bring the bottle to the doc and we'll dilute it to make 30 shots (the shots can have the needle removed, so they can used to spray the liquid orally, of course in each shot there will be enough liquid for one single dose). The doc said we'll have to store the interferon in the fridge and we'll have to freeze the diluted shots. Also, when it will be necessary, we'll have to transport the interferon in a thermal bag to keep it cold. We plan to give the interferon for 2 months, each day orally at alternate weeks. Then, the vet said to go at the University lab and have the cat tested directly with PCR. For his cold the doc suggested to do nothing... If he really has the leukemia it wouldn't be safe to inject vaccines on him. He says that the interferon is enough... Anyway, in the future I want to learn how to examine the cat by myself, I can't trust the vets in this city very much. I've found your website very useful! I've learned how to open a cat's mouth without disturbing him (...too much, at least). However, I can't still have it opened for more than 1sec... The cat I have at home seems normal: the gums and the mouth should be normally colored; I can't see dirt on his teeth and doesn't smell exceptionally bad. The fellow downstairs appears to be in the same conditions... The only difference I noticed is the rest of the mouth, except the gums, which is of a lighter color than the other cat. But I want to recheck. I'd also like to learn how to check the internal organs of a cat, especially the kidneys. Also, it would be useful to know how much a cat should drink or knowing when he goes in the litter box too often or too unfrequently. It would be great if I'd found some reference pictures or photos on the web (normal - abnormal) for each thing one might want to check on a cat. best, Fulvio ps - my cats are very, very similar to the cat on the left in this picture: http://www.maxshouse.com/Ours/Gates.jpg I can't be 100% sure because I can't see his face, but the fur color on the body and its distribution appears nearly identical. Still amazingly, the cat on the right might look like my old cat I had once in Naples. > > > If 3M IU isn't available, let me know which strengths are available in > > Italy. > > our vet told us to buy the Wellferon-B 3,000,000 IU Wrong interferon. You want interferon Alfa-2a > this morning we switched to Roferon-A 3,000,000 IU which is widely avaiable > (and it's also cheaper, about 35$) That's the one- its made by Roche. > I understand that maybe the beta interferon isn't much avaiable - or at > least aren't avaiable products similar to the Wellferon B... > > but I don't understand why the vet choosed the beta interferon... isn't the > alfa interferon used for cats? Yes. He's probably (obviously) not familiar with interferon therapy in cats. > Anyway a couple of people on it.discussioni.animali.gatti (the italian > equivalent of alt.pet.cats) said that Roferon-A was good for their cat which > is FeLV+ since several years. The low-dose protocol seems to reduce clinical signs and improve well-being in many FeLV-symptomatic cats and might even delay the onset of clinical signs in asymptomatic FeLV cats. Interferon doesn't work in every FeLV cat- but it works in enough to make the effort and expense worthwhile. > Tomorrow I'll bring the bottle to the doc and we'll dilute it to make 30 > shots (the shots can have the needle removed, so they can used to spray the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > We plan to give the interferon for 2 months, each day orally at alternate > weeks. If you plan to use interferon for only two months, you might want to think about using it at the higher dose. Interferon has antiviral effects at high doses (100,000 U/kg/day) and immunomodulating effects at low doses (30 U/cat/day). The high-dose protocol reduces the viral load but it can be used for only 3-7 weeks because cats develop antibodies against interferons derived from other species (heterologous). The antiviral effects at this dose seem to last about 50 days until antibodies develop and inhibit activity. But even a temporary reduction in the viral load might give the cat's immune system just enough time to reconstitute and mount an immune response that's strong enough to extinguish the virus. This has been known to happen. If I were you, I'd *really* consider this strategy. Then, the vet said to go at the University lab and have the cat > tested directly with PCR. I don't think you need to go with the PCR unless the cat tests negative on the ELISA and IFA. If he tests positive on the IFA he has an active infection and there's no need to test for a latent infection. The only times you'd want to test for a latent infection is when the ELISA is negative in a cat that is likely to have been exposed to FeLV, and cats with unknown histories that tested negative on the ELISA. > For his cold the doc suggested to do nothing... If he really has the > leukemia it wouldn't be safe to inject vaccines on him. That's not true. FeLV+ should be vaccinated against feline viral rhinotracheitis-calicivirus-panleukopenia. FeLV causes immunosuppression which could leave the cat more susceptible to these diseases. You might want to ask him about a broad-spectrum antibiotic to prevent secondary bacterial infections. Remember, the cat may have a compromised immune system and might not be able to fight off a simple bacterial infection. He says that the > interferon is enough... Anyway, in the future I want to learn how to examine > the cat by myself, I can't trust the vets in this city very much. Your vet is making me a little nervous, too. I've found > your website very useful! I've learned how to open a cat's mouth without > disturbing him (...too much, at least). The trick to examining or pilling a cat is using the least amount of restraint as possible and getting it over with as quickly as possible. A little trick for examining inside a cat's mouth is rubbing catnip all over your fingers. When cats detect the scent of catnip, many open their mouths a little (Flehmen response, gape, grimace) so the odor molecules can enter the tiny ducts just behind the little upper incisor teeth. These tiny ducts run all the way to the vomeronasal (Jacobson's) organ which magnifies the odor and allows the cat to 'taste' the scent. Males use this organ to detect other cats' urine and help locate females in heat http://www.maxshouse.com/vomeronasal-flehmem.htm Try using catnip on your fingers next time-- you'll be surprised. However, I can't still have it > opened for more than 1sec... The cat I have at home seems normal: the gums > and the mouth should be normally colored; I can't see dirt on his teeth and > doesn't smell exceptionally bad. The fellow downstairs appears to be in the > same conditions... The only difference I noticed is the rest of the mouth, > except the gums, which is of a lighter color than the other cat. But I want > to recheck. Pale gums could be a sign of anemia. When you brought the cat to be tested for FeLV, did the vet run a complete blood count (CBC) and serum chemistry profile (chemscreen)? If not, I'd make it a priority. I'd also like to learn how to check the internal organs of a > cat, especially the kidneys. Palpitating kidneys and judging their size and shape takes a lot of practice. In some normal, healthy cats the kidneys- especially the left one- moves very easily which makes it feel almost exactly like an abdominal tumor or mass-- scared the hell out me a few times when I was just learning! I was lucky- my vet is an old friend and retired veterinary university professor that's used to allieveo ottuso! LOL! Also, it would be useful to know how much a cat > should drink or knowing when he goes in the litter box too often or too > unfrequently. A cats daily water requirement in ml is about equal to the cat's daily energy requirement in kcals. IOW, a 4 kg. neutered cat has daily energy requirement of about 180 kcals so his daily water needs are about 180 ml. or about 6 oz. A good rule of thumb that errs on the side of caution is 1 oz of water for every pound of body weight. Remember- a 5.5 oz can of cat food with 78% moisture contains about 4.25 oz. of water, and oxidation of the nutrients produces an additional 10 to 13 g of water for each 100 kcal. So- a cat eating canned food needs to drink very little water- less than 2 ozs./day. This is just one of the reasons why canned food is so much better than dry food. It would be great if I'd found some reference pictures or > photos on the web (normal - abnormal) for each thing one might want to check > on a cat. When I get a chance I'll scan one of my old texts that show you how to perform a complete physical exam on cats and send it to you in a Acrobat pdf so all the pictures will be in place. If you don't have Acrobat Reader you can download a free copy here: http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readermain.html Let me know if your email address is valid and if you can receive a large file- otherwise I'll send it in a few smaller files. > best, > Fulvio Ciao, Phil > ps - my cats are very, very similar to the cat on the left in this picture: > http://www.maxshouse.com/Ours/Gates.jpg > I can't be 100% sure because I can't see his face, but the fur color on the > body and its distribution appears nearly identical. Here's a better picture http://www.maxshouse.com/Ours/Jade-11-16-04--4a.jpg Still amazingly, the cat > on the right might look like my old cat I had once in Naples. http://www.maxshouse.com/Ours/Chatter-04-0064.jpg This is Chatter when she's disturbed and woken up: http://www.maxshouse.com/Ours/Chatter-wokenup.JPG LOL! (Not really) >> our vet told us to buy the Wellferon-B 3,000,000 IU > > Wrong interferon. You want interferon Alfa-2a yes.... And this questions a lot the competence of the actual vet.... However, after I've been told by the pharmacy that it was the "B" type, I've immediately switched to a 2a interferon. Upon suggestion of some guys at "it.discussioni.animali.gatti" group I bought the Roferon, which is a 2a interferon. > Yes. He's probably (obviously) not familiar with interferon therapy in > cats. He's not indeed! > If you plan to use interferon for only two months, you might want to think > about using it at the higher dose. Interferon has antiviral effects at > high > doses (100,000 U/kg/day) and immunomodulating effects at low doses (30 > U/cat/day). argh! I've already diluted the interferon.... Took 0.50 ml of the 1ml vial (50%) diluted in 500 ml of sterile saline solution (bottle "A") then took 1cc from the 500 ml solution and put in another 100ml saline solution (bottle "B") from the bottle "B" I loaded 30 shots of 1 ml each one shot, one dose - I already gave two to my cat in the last two days... (orally) is this the correct procedure to dilute 3,000,000 to 30 IU? I've still got 0.50ml of concentrated 3,000,000 interferon in the fridge perhaps I can dilute again as per your suggestion... tell me what I should do, please The idea is certainly to have the cat tested for FeLV+ confirmation. Maybe he has nothing so maybe we are doing all this for nothing. If he results negative perhaps the virus is in the bone marrow where he's clearing it. Or maybe he has something, and results positive, but at that point we won't know if it is a permanent FeLV infection or, again, he's already clearing the virus. At that point we'll have to check him again in the next 6 months... Since there are too many possibilities, we'd prefer to keep him safe from external enviroenment as much as we can and give him these little doses of interferon which shouldn't harm a healthy cat anyways. I think having the cat tested right tomorrow may be or may not be a good option. If he's in the act of clearing the virus, he could result positive. If the cat has good chances (the cat-God knows) to clear the virus, then waiting two months and giving him interferon could he result positive at the test within the middle of december? What would you do in our clothes? Thank you, thank you so much for your help! > Then, the vet said to go at the University lab and have the cat >> tested directly with PCR. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > negative in a cat that is likely to have been exposed to FeLV, and cats > with unknown histories that tested negative on the ELISA. I thought that PCR both detects latent or active infections... I think the university can execute the test on the blood... > That's not true. FeLV+ should be vaccinated against feline viral > rhinotracheitis-calicivirus-panleukopenia. FeLV causes immunosuppression > which could leave the cat more susceptible to these diseases. You might > want to ask him about a broad-spectrum antibiotic to prevent secondary > bacterial infections. Remember, the cat may have a compromised immune > system and might not be able to fight off a simple bacterial infection. I understand. But we - as well you - don't know if it has leukemia or not. He's sneezing very less frequently. Also that strange swallowing is a little bit rare now... I still have to buy the thermometer (they didn't have the digital one). If it should happen to find my cat with a flu, can I do something? > Pale gums could be a sign of anemia. When you brought the cat to be > tested > for FeLV, did the vet run a complete blood count (CBC) and serum chemistry > profile (chemscreen)? If not, I'd make it a priority. he didn't check anything and the elisa test was made on the whole blood, not serum not plasm... However, I double checked the mouth of both my cats. After comparison with a picture I took of the mouth of my cat upstairs (with my great surprise, he was much more cooperative), I think that both gums and internal mouths are very similar, of what seems a regular, healthy pink-red color... Perhaps there's some minor difference, which I couldn't really detect at sight. > When I get a chance I'll scan one of my old texts that show you how to > perform a complete physical exam on cats and send it to you in a Acrobat [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Let me know if your email address is valid and if you can receive a large > file- otherwise I'll send it in a few smaller files. Thank you. You can send attachments up to 1MB to debris (SNAIL) email (DOT) it (remove the anti-spam tags please) If 1mb isn't enough perhaps you could make a multiple RAR archive If can't do it, I could open a FTP server on my computer for a while and upload the file directly to me. You were really, really kind and generous to help me with all this matter! If it weren't for you, thanks to the "vet" in Lucca our knowdlege about leukemia (and cats) would be shameful superficial! I'd like to do express my gratitude. Perharps is there something that I can do for your website? Arranging and editing some pictures or documentation about health or medical attention facts about cats? I can also translate texts in Italian. > Here's a better picture > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://www.maxshouse.com/Ours/Chatter-wokenup.JPG LOL! (Not really) ahahah very, very funny but at a closer look they're different I will send to you some picture of my "fierce creatures" in these days regards, Fulvio > Took 0.50 ml of the 1ml vial (50%) > diluted in 500 ml of sterile saline solution (bottle "A") > then took 1cc from the 500 ml solution and put in another 100ml saline > solution (bottle "B") [...] > I've still got 0.50ml of concentrated 3,000,000 interferon in the fridge > perhaps I can dilute again as per your suggestion... correction: the vial of concentrated interferon is 0.50 ml took 0.25 of it and put in 500 ml saline solution took 1 ml of diluted solution from the 500 ml bottle and put in another 100 ml solution then loaded 30 shots of 1ml each so, the remaining of the concentrated 3,000,000 solution is 0,25 ml sorry for the confusion > > Took 0.50 ml of the 1ml vial (50%) > > diluted in 500 ml of sterile saline solution (bottle "A") [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > sorry for the confusion Now I'm even more confused. Roferon Interferon Alfa-2a doesn't come in 3,000,000 IU/.5 ml vials. The only 0.5 ml formulations are 6 and 9 million IU preloaded syringes--- unless the 3million IU/.5 ml vials are an export only product or its manufactured in Europe. These are the only formulations I've heard of: Interferon Alfa-2a (Roferon-® (Roche); (Rx)) 3 million I.U./ml (1 ml vial), 6 million I.U./ml (1 ml & 3 ml vial), 9 million I.U./0.9 ml (0.9 ml vials), 36 million I.U./mI (1 ml vial); 6 million I.U./0.5 ml & 9 million I.U./0.5 ml in single-use prefilled syringes; Powder for Injection 6 million I.U./ml in vials with diluent I'm not really sure of the dilution because I'm not sure of concentration that you started with. Do the vials have Roferon labels or did the pharmacy break down the original vials into their own vials? Phil > Now I'm even more confused. Roferon Interferon Alfa-2a doesn't come in > 3,000,000 IU/.5 ml vials. The only 0.5 ml formulations are 6 and 9 > million > IU preloaded syringes--- unless the 3million IU/.5 ml vials are an export > only product or its manufactured in Europe. no no no.... the vial clearly says "0.5 ml" in fact it is a shot, not a vial, and it is not made by the pharmacy, it's a sealed product probably is a dose for Italian/European market, according to local specifications... also, it is certainly 3,000,000 the label on the box says: Roferon-A 3,000,000 IU / 0.5 ml LO3AB04 a-2a interferon 1 shot for single injection (CE0086) [<-- "CE" might indicate European Community and probably the different standard] on the back of the box it is written: for injection use and down below: "Roferon (R) Roche" Fulvio > > Now I'm even more confused. Roferon Interferon Alfa-2a doesn't come in > > 3,000,000 IU/.5 ml vials. The only 0.5 ml formulations are 6 and 9 [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > in fact it is a shot, not a vial, and it is not made by the pharmacy, it's a > sealed product Do you mean its a prefilled syringe- and not a vial? > probably is a dose for Italian/European market, according to local > specifications... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Fulvio > Do you mean its a prefilled syringe- and not a vial? yes... > > Do you mean its a prefilled syringe- and not a vial? > > yes... The only .5 ml prefilled syringes I can find are 6 million I.U./0.5 ml & 9 million I.U./0.5 ml. You've got me curious- tomorrow I'll call Roche. Doesn't your pharmacy have Interferon Alfa-2a in 3 million I.U/ 1ml vials? Phil > The only .5 ml prefilled syringes I can find are 6 million I.U./0.5 ml & 9 > million I.U./0.5 ml. You've got me curious- tomorrow I'll call Roche. I assure you it is a 2.5 ml / 3 million IU syringe > Doesn't your pharmacy have Interferon Alfa-2a in 3 million I.U/ 1ml > vials? I think not, but will ask again. Besides, I'd need another medical recipe to buy it. In Italy you can't enter in a pharmacy and buy this kind of medicine otherwise. ciao > > The only .5 ml prefilled syringes I can find are 6 million I.U./0.5 ml & 9 > > million I.U./0.5 ml. You've got me curious- tomorrow I'll call Roche. > I assure you it is a 2.5 ml / 3 million IU syringe I just checked with Roche. They discontinued the 3M IU/1 ml vials a few months ago (that shows you how long the 1 ml vials lasted!) because people were overdosing themselves and replaced the product with Roferon-A 3 million IU/0.5 ml prefilled syringes. Although the dilution formula you used seems correct, I'm a little concerned about splitting a single-dose preparation. Please make sure you roll the syringe between your hands to make sure the ingredients are mixed thoroughly. I sent the file to your FTP- did you receive it? Phil > I just checked with Roche. They discontinued the 3M IU/1 ml vials a few > months ago (that shows you how long the 1 ml vials lasted!) because people > were overdosing themselves and replaced the product with Roferon-A 3 > million IU/0.5 ml prefilled syringes. in fact that's the one I got I don't really want to overdose my cat... so what do you suggest? Continue with the (believed) 30 IU dilution or use the remaining 0.25 ml of concentrated interferon to make another, but stronger, certain dilution until the test? Anyway, I don't intend to stress you anymore about this case. I'm understanding there could be cats who really need your assistance more urgently. I was discussing with my family about the opportunity to have the cat tested sooner than two months. We're a bit afraid that the cat might harm himself while he's outside (cars running, diseases... other cats! he appears to be very territorial). Since there's a possibility he's perfectly healthy, we could just be wasting our (and his) time. I'm also a bit tired of all these "if", "possibilities" and "probabilities" too.... > Although the dilution formula you used seems correct, I'm a little > concerned > about splitting a single-dose preparation. Please make sure you roll the > syringe between your hands to make sure the ingredients are mixed > thoroughly. yes, everything has been shaken a little before diluting the vet took 0.25 ml of solution with another syringe (removed the needle from the interferon syringe and put another syringe with its needle inside to swallow the necessary portion) then the 500ml of saline solution with 0.25 ml of interferon has been shaken before putting 1ml of it inside the final 100ml solution for the thirty 1.0 ml shots. > I sent the file to your FTP- did you receive it? Yes I've received it, seems interesting - I will read it through this week. I left a few pictures of the cat inside the directory. How much old do you think is he? Oh, and the guy holding the cat it's me :-) >> www.leucemiafelina.org > >Wow! That site is set up beautifully! I don't have a clue how to use the >Macromedia Flash program. I tried the demo but I couldn't get it work. I >tink I should stick to cats. LOL! Yes it's a fancy site, but this doesn't make it necessarly a very good site. The only true useful thing I found on it were the links to other websites on the topic. Anyway the author clearly says that it is a tribute to her cat. I'm not really good with Flash - and although it's cool not everybody likes it for the sake of a website readability. I'm almost good with other Macromedia products like their html editor (Dreamweaver) and Fireworks (an image editor for the web). I like photography so can use Photoshop pretty well. Also, a friend of mine is a web designer and perhaps could help, if necessary. ciao Fulvio > > I just checked with Roche. They discontinued the 3M IU/1 ml vials a few > > months ago (that shows you how long the 1 ml vials lasted!) because people [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I don't really want to overdose my cat... Actually, I didn't believe the company changed the formulation because people were overdosing themselves. I don't see how they could since the amount of interferon is the same in the 0.5 ml syringe as it is in the 1 ml vial- its still 3 million IU. There was probably another reason for the change- mostly likely more profit- since companies rarely make changes that result in less profit. so what do you suggest? Continue > with the (believed) 30 IU dilution or use the remaining 0.25 ml of > concentrated interferon to make another, but stronger, certain dilution > until the test? Here's the problem: If the ingredients in the first half of the split aren't in the correct proportions, the remaining half won't be correct either. I don't really know if the dilution you mixed is too weak- it might be fine. I'm just a little worried that the ingredients in your final solution might not be present in the correct proportions. The amount of interferon in the syringe is very small- 11.1 mcg. There's no way to be certain that the second half contains 5.55 mcg. Some preparations can be split if necessary and others can't be without losing efficacy. As I said, the final solution may be fine- I just can't be sure. The dilution instructions I gave you were based on the amount of interferon in the vial (3 million IU) - not on the total volume (o.05 or 1 ml). The amount of interferon in the syringe and vial is the same (11.1 mcg)- thus, the dilution instructions apply to both preparations. I would go with a new syringe and mix the entire syringe according to the dilution instructions for 3 million IU- but that's me and I tend to be a little neurotic about certain things. Your dilution may be fine- but I would want to be sure. > Anyway, I don't intend to stress you anymore about this case. You're not stressing me out at all. I completely understand your situation and realize that your vet isn't giving you much help and a lot of information isn't as readily available in Italy as it is here. So, don't worry about it! I'll try to help as much as I can. I'm > understanding there could be cats who really need your assistance more > urgently. I'm just a newsgroup participant like you. *Every* cat is important to me. I was discussing with my family about the opportunity to have the > cat tested sooner than two months. We're a bit afraid that the cat might > harm himself while he's outside (cars running, diseases... other cats! he > appears to be very territorial). Since there's a possibility he's perfectly > healthy, we could just be wasting our (and his) time. I'm also a bit tired > of all these "if", "possibilities" and "probabilities" too.... I was thinking that maybe the cat's former owners have other cats and intentionally abandoned him because he tested positive on an ELISA. You might want to ask other the vets in your area if they've seen your new cat before. Can't hurt to ask. He may even be lost and his owners are looking for him. Are microchips used in cats in Italy? I know Avid makes a Eurochip. You might want to ask your vet or university to scan him for a chip. I'm sure they'd scan him for free. > > Although the dilution formula you used seems correct, I'm a little > > concerned [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Yes I've received it, seems interesting - I will read it through this week. If its not clear- I can rescan it at a higher resolution. I was trying to keep the file small- but size doesn't matter if I send through FTP. Let me know- its no problem. > I left a few pictures of the cat inside the directory. How much old do you > think is he? Oh, and the guy holding the cat it's me :-) You're right! He does have the same markings as my cat- but the faces are a little different. > >> www.leucemiafelina.org > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The only true useful thing I found on it were the links to other websites on > the topic. Anyway the author clearly says that it is a tribute to her cat. Actually, my site started as tribute to my cat and just grew and grew. > I'm not really good with Flash - and although it's cool not everybody likes > it for the sake of a website readability. You're right. A site like mine would be difficult to navigate and read in Flash. Here's a site for pet loss that was done beautifully in Flash: http://www.indigo.org/rainbowbridge_ver2.html I'm almost good with other > Macromedia products like their html editor (Dreamweaver) and Fireworks (an > image editor for the web). I tried Dreamweaver but it was too complicated for me- I'm not every good with computers. I made my site with Frontpage. > I like photography Me too. I was in photography before I got into printing- in fact photography got me into printing. so can use Photoshop pretty > well. Also, a friend of mine is a web designer and perhaps could help, if > necessary. Thanks! My website could sure use some help! We can talk about it in email. ciao, Phil > ciao > Fulvio > Here's the problem: If the ingredients in the first half of the split > aren't in the correct proportions, the remaining half won't be correct > either. how about if I finish to add the 0.25 ml of remaining interferon to the 500ml saline solution which already contains 0.25 ml of interferon? I will get a 0.5 ml of interferon in 500ml of saline solution. Then I could take this and diluite more to the necessary dilution. > I don't really know if the dilution you mixed is too weak- it might be > fine. it could be fine as you said for immunomodulatory effects... > I was thinking that maybe the cat's former owners have other cats and > intentionally abandoned him because he tested positive on an ELISA. That's a possibility. But I would never return a cat to whom deliberately abandoned him. The only result is that they would abandon him again. In Italy I believe someone uses chips (if they do, it's still very rare), while someone have their pets tattooed. But people mostly use to do this generally for dogs and I've never heard of or seen a tattooed cat. I phoned to the Veterinarian University and spoke with a professor. Not only they don't do any test other than the ELISA but according to this professor (!) "it is sufficient to discover if the cat has the disease"!!! :-( Anyway I've found a private clinic who takes the blood and sends it to a lab in Padova (I think about 300km from here) which will perform a IFA test at the cost of 40-45$... Just for curiosity I've asked them how do they perform the ELISA "on whole blood or serum?" - they replied: "serum, but sometimes we do on whole blood because it's the same thing anyway..." We tested ELISA on 30th August... So about 6 weeks passed since then... > If its not clear- I can rescan it at a higher resolution. I was trying to > keep the file small- but size doesn't matter if I send through FTP. Let > me > know- its no problem. no, no it's clear I can read it - thanks! > I tried Dreamweaver but it was too complicated for me- I'm not every good > with computers. I made my site with Frontpage. Dreamweaver is no longer complicated... Perhaps you tried an outdated version... I hate Frontpage and as far as I've seen any serious web designer avoids it. > Me too. I was in photography before I got into printing- in fact > photography > got me into printing. I'm specializing in XIX century printing tecniques, but I'm still a beginner. > Thanks! My website could sure use some help! We can talk about it in > email. certainly, Fulvio > > Here's the problem: If the ingredients in the first half of the split > > aren't in the correct proportions, the remaining half won't be correct [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > get a 0.5 ml of interferon in 500ml of saline solution. Then I could take > this and diluite more to the necessary dilution. That sounds like a plan. You'd have to add another 500 ml to that solution to get 3m IU/l. Then follow the instructions I previously posted. I would feel better if you started with a fresh syringe- but I'd hate to see you waste what you have. > > I don't really know if the dilution you mixed is too weak- it might be > > fine. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > That's a possibility. But I would never return a cat to whom deliberately > abandoned him. The only result is that they would abandon him again. Its also possible that he may have just wandered away and became lost. In > Italy I believe someone uses chips (if they do, it's still very rare), while > someone have their pets tattooed. But people mostly use to do this generally [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > they don't do any test other than the ELISA but according to this professor > (!) "it is sufficient to discover if the cat has the disease"!!! :-( On no! A professor from a veterinary university said that?! Its no wonder your vet is so poorly educated. > Anyway I've found a private clinic who takes the blood and sends it to a lab > in Padova (I think about 300km from here) which will perform a IFA test at > the cost of 40-45$... Just for curiosity I've asked them how do they perform > the ELISA "on whole blood or serum?" - they replied: "serum, but sometimes > we do on whole blood because it's the same thing anyway..." There are good arguments for testing either, but the rate of false positives is higher when blood is tested instead of serum- especially if the blood sample is hemolyized- which many blood samples are. Many vets draw the blood into a syringe instead of a vacutainer and then shoot the blood back through the needle into to the tube- which damages RBCs. When a vacutainer is used instead of a syringe, the blood flows directly into the test tube. Vacutainers produce the best blood samples for testing. Something to watch for when your vet is drawing blood- not only for FeLV tests but for all blood tests because hemolyized blood causes significant errors in the results. > We tested ELISA on 30th August... So about 6 weeks passed since then... I think enough time has passed to test him by IFA. > > If its not clear- I can rescan it at a higher resolution. I was trying to > > keep the file small- but size doesn't matter if I send through FTP. Let > > me > > know- its no problem. > > no, no it's clear I can read it - thanks! I hope it helps. > > I tried Dreamweaver but it was too complicated for me- I'm not every good > > with computers. I made my site with Frontpage. > > Dreamweaver is no longer complicated... Perhaps you tried an outdated > version... I hate Frontpage and as far as I've seen any serious web designer > avoids it. As you can see by my website- I'm not a web designer! LOL! I'll see if I can get my hands on a new Dreamweaver demo. > > Me too. I was in photography before I got into printing- in fact > > photography > > got me into printing. > > I'm specializing in XIX century printing tecniques, but I'm still a > beginner. I'm in offset- used to be in rotogravure. > > Thanks! My website could sure use some help! We can talk about it in > > email. > > certainly, Sorry for the delayed reply- Phil > >> our vet told us to buy the Wellferon-B 3,000,000 IU > > > > Wrong interferon. You want interferon Alfa-2a > > yes.... And this questions a lot the competence of the actual vet.... He probably doesn't treat FeLV+ cats- just kills them like too many vets do. I'm very concerned that he may not have run the ELISA properly- its very easy to screw up an ELISA Snap if you're not very experienced in running them -improper washing steps- overdevelopment- improper sample handling- hemolyzed sample. The ELISAs aren't all that reliable to begin with- 38-54% of ELISA positives are false-positives. The more I'm thinking about this the more I think you should have another ELISA run at the veterinary university- All this worrying and planning might be for nothing- there's a good chance the first ELISA wasn't run properly. The university shouldn't charge you more than $25. OTOH, you might be better off going straight for the PCR. > However, after I've been told by the pharmacy that it was the "B" type, I've > immediately switched to a 2a interferon. Upon suggestion of some guys at > "it.discussioni.animali.gatti" group I bought the Roferon, which is a 2a > interferon. .I thought I said Interferon Alfa-2a at the beginning. Sorry. > > Yes. He's probably (obviously) not familiar with interferon therapy in > > cats. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > argh! I've already diluted the interferon.... Sono spiacente. > Took 0.50 ml of the 1ml vial (50%) > diluted in 500 ml of sterile saline solution (bottle "A") [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > is this the correct procedure to dilute 3,000,000 to 30 IU? I've never used part of a vial- because I wasn't sure I'd get a proportional mix of the ingredients. IOW, might get a higher proportion of the diluent (the inert substance) than the drug or vice versa. However, your formulation doesn't sound right. I'll figure it out later- I'm burned out right now. I work in a shelter and manage a few feral colonies and right now I'm still fostering kittens from kitten season- that's in addition to work. So, I don't have many functioning brain cells right now. ;-) Here's the formula for diluting the 3 million IU/ml vial: Interferon Alfa-2a (Roferon-® (Roche); (Rx)) "Preparation of solution for 30 U/ml oral administration: Using the 3 million IU vial, dilute the entire contents into a 1 L bag of sterile normal saline; mix well. Resulting solution contains approximately 3,000 IU/ml. Divide into aliquots of either I or 10 ml and freeze. By diluting further 100 fold (1 ml of 3000 IU/ml solution with 100 ml of sterile saline, or 10 ml with 1000 ml of sterile saline) a 30 IU/mI solution will result. The final diluted solution 30 IU/ml will remain stable for several months when refrigerated. Refreezing unused portions of 30 IU/ml solution is not recormmended." > I've still got 0.50ml of concentrated 3,000,000 interferon in the fridge > perhaps I can dilute again as per your suggestion... > > tell me what I should do, please |
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