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Indoor cats

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mlabofski@yahoo.co.uk - 17 Aug 2005 19:07 GMT
First let me say I'm not being antagonistic, I'm just interested in the
(apparent) culture difference between the US & the UK as regards our
feline friends.

With regard to letting cats out:  All the cats I know go outside, they
(usually) learn their way back home from their local neighbourhood,
they don't go too far but suss out gardens, wildlife, other cats and
people, and hopefully realise that traffic isn't for playing with.
There's not too many birds in London and no-one seems to care about the
pigeon population anyway.  Some get lost, some get hit by traffic (mine
for example isn't allowed out the front to the road, only the back
garden where he doesn't seem to want to climb the fence to escape from
but if he did I'd let him).

It seems natural for a cat to want to venture outside, and to me it's
cruel to keep them inside (unless they're not interested).

It seems that in the US people are much more likely to force cats to
stay indoors, or take them out on a leash (something I've NEVER heard
of over here and to be honest I think people would laugh over here if
they saw a cat on a lead, but fair play for succeeding in training a
cat to do it), or build these enclosure thingies for them, to protect
the wildlife, also I've never seen one over here.

It's interesting, do you think it's a cultural thing?  How long have
people in the US been doing these things?  Perhaps it's not the general
population, just people in cat groups :)  As I say, I wasn't saying
that either way is right, it's just interesting how people do things
differently.

Marcia
Lord Otis's slave and minder
Steve(JazzHunter) - 17 Aug 2005 19:17 GMT
>First let me say I'm not being antagonistic, I'm just interested in the
>(apparent) culture difference between the US & the UK as regards our
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>Marcia
>Lord Otis's slave and minder

There might be a difference in the percentages of cats kept indoors,
that's all. My cousin who lives in Virginia Waters (England) keeps her
two cats indoors.  And let's not forget it's illegal to declaw in
Britain, something that's done quite willingly by many vets in the
States if the owner just asks.

..  Steve  ..
Adrian - 17 Aug 2005 20:24 GMT
>> First let me say I'm not being antagonistic, I'm just interested in
>> the (apparent) culture difference between the US & the UK as regards
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> ..  Steve  ..

I've met many cats outside in Virginia Water, your cousin's definately
in the minority. Of course all the large preditors were killed off by
humans in the UK, hundreds of years ago, if they were still arround the
situation may be different.
Signature

Adrian (Owned by Snoopy & Bagheera)
A house is not a home, without a cat.
http://community.webshots.com/user/clowderuk

shortfuse - 25 Aug 2005 19:23 GMT
Why cats should be indoors...A perfect example was found today.
There had been a precious tiger cat (not more than 1 yr) roaming our
neighborhood. I gave him some food, but thinking he belonged to someone, I
dismissed taking him in. This morning I found him in our alley next to us,
hit by a car and smashed. I called the Animal Control so he could be "laid
to rest". My husband and I scooted him over away from getting repeatedly
smashed and covered him up with a old cloth.
I wish people who own pets would keep a better eye on them. This poor kitty
didnt deserve to have his life ended so soon and like it did.
Enfilade - 25 Aug 2005 20:06 GMT
> Why cats should be indoors...A perfect example was found today.

Right now in Halifax, there is a bylaw on the table that will forbid
cat owners from allowing their pets outside unsupervised/unleashed.

They have had THAT MANY complaints about cats trespassing on
neighbours' property and leaving feces about town.

--Fil
W. Leong - 25 Aug 2005 21:04 GMT
>> Why cats should be indoors...A perfect example was found today.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> --Fil

The  condo I live in has a bylaw that states that all pets must be leashed
or in carriers or held by humans while in the common areas. But I  still see
cats and dogs roaming free in the hallway. Once a dog jumped on me when I
opened my door to go to work.  Another  time a dog came nosing on my door
and drew Rusty's attention. Not to mention the 3 cats that live on my floor
frequently roam  the hallway. While the common areas are prefectly safe for
them, not all encounters with them are pleasant.

Winnie
Christina Websell - 17 Aug 2005 19:24 GMT
> First let me say I'm not being antagonistic, I'm just interested in the
> (apparent) culture difference between the US & the UK as regards our
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Marcia
> Lord Otis's slave and minder

It just isn't the same in the USA as it is here.  Yes, there is a huge
cultural difference, like declawing being offered at the same time as
speutering presumably because of an assumption that most cats will stay
inside and furniture is king..
BUT.  They have the most awful predators there.  Cat-eating ones, which,
apart from the renegade fox, we don't have here.
Mountain lions, coyotes, bears are just waiting to snap up your cat.  And
big bad traffic like we have never experienced.
At least I think this is the reason that I've learned from this group why
cats are mainly kept inside in the USA.  Yes?
Or is it really just cultural?  and some of it not necessary, because this
made me think hard.

Tweed
kilikini - 17 Aug 2005 20:13 GMT
> > First let me say I'm not being antagonistic, I'm just interested in the
> > (apparent) culture difference between the US & the UK as regards our
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Tweed

I don't want my cats outside because cars don't stop for them, we have
raccoons (rabid), possums (rabid), rats (rabid) not to mention the fleas,
ear mites, feline leukemia, feline aids.........why WOULD you let your cat
out?  Seriously?  Do you like paying for vet visits?  My female cat, Chloe
is very happy to be where she is; she's SUCH the sweetheart, my male cat is
a devil in cat's clothing.  I'd love to let him out just to get the dickens
out of him, but at what cost?  You can't have an indoor/outdoor cat without
infesting your house with fleas, mites and ticks or whatever.  I just don't
see the point.

kili
Janet B - 17 Aug 2005 20:37 GMT
> You can't have an indoor/outdoor cat without
>infesting your house with fleas, mites and ticks or whatever.  I just don't
>see the point.
>
>kili

While my cats stay in, for their safety and wellbeing, the above
comment is absurd.  Dogs go out every day and don't infest houses with
fleas, mites and ticks, and cats are no different.

My cats  can go on the deck or patio with us, but never unattended
outside, and I don't trust the dog behind me not to come over the
fence at them, so close to the house or not at all.  Skipjack say not
at all - he will stay in an open doorway.

As far as cultural differences, the US is a very different place from
many other countries.  The population (human, feline,, canine, wild
animals) just can't be compared, nor that vicious beast, the
automobile.

Signature

Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album

kilikini - 17 Aug 2005 21:09 GMT
> > You can't have an indoor/outdoor cat without
> >infesting your house with fleas, mites and ticks or whatever.  I just don't
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> animals) just can't be compared, nor that vicious beast, the
> automobile.

Ha!  I've had dogs before that were indoor/outdoor dogs.  I'm sorry,
Frontline doesn't cut it.  I gave my dog frontline 2 times a month and I'd
still pick about 200 ticks off of him and he was infested with fleas.  I
gave him baths weekly.  The products don't work.  Try to live on Maui and
see if you don't have the same results.

kili
Janet B - 17 Aug 2005 21:42 GMT
>Ha!  I've had dogs before that were indoor/outdoor dogs.  I'm sorry,
>Frontline doesn't cut it.  I gave my dog frontline 2 times a month and I'd
>still pick about 200 ticks off of him and he was infested with fleas.  I
>gave him baths weekly.  The products don't work.  Try to live on Maui and
>see if you don't have the same results.

well, ALL dogs are indoor/outdoor unles you litter train them!  And of
course, dogs are social beings, and keeping them enclosed in a house
24/7 would not be healthy for their behavior.  

My dogs don't live outdoors, they live in the house.  They spend
varying periods of time outside with me though, and I do not use any
flea/tick preventative products.  I'm a big believer that healthy pets
don't tend to attract pests much.  

I live in a climate where the summers are hot and sticky and humid.
Mosquitos never actually die here, nor do fleas.  I do not have fleas
on my dogs, my cats, or in my house.  A rare tick every year or so,
and I do field training with my one dog, so he's in a populated
environment.

200 ticks on your dog?  Something is very, very wrong there.

Signature

Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album

animzmirot - 17 Aug 2005 23:01 GMT
> > > You can't have an indoor/outdoor cat without
> > >infesting your house with fleas, mites and ticks or whatever.  I just
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> kili

We don't all live on Maui, nor do we want to. I live in New England, and
although we do have ticks (Lyme Diesease was discovered in Connecticut) and
we do have fleas, I find that Frontline works magnificently well and neither
my dogs or my cat has ever had a flea problem.
animzmirot - 17 Aug 2005 22:59 GMT
> I don't want my cats outside because cars don't stop for them, we have
> raccoons (rabid), possums (rabid), rats (rabid) not to mention the fleas,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> kili

I think you might be overstating this just a wee bit. I live in the US (and
have lived in England as well) and I let my cat out. Of course, we live on a
very large tract of land in the suburbs and he has never strayed off the
lawn, which gives him a couple of acres to roam around. He doesn't have
flea, ticks, or earmites. In fact, he is completely and totally healthy and
happy. My cat is innoculated and always has been. Yes, there are animals
that carry rabies in our town, but he has a yearly rabies shot (recommended
by our vet who thinks it's safer for outdoor cats than the 3 year shot) and
he's such a scardy cat that he would run under the house if he ever came
across anything wild anyhow. He doesn't go out at night ever, he's only out
a couple of hours a day in the warmer months and then asks to come in.

I've kept him indoors when we lived in a less safe place and he rewarded  me
by peeing all over the house. You want to know why I let him out? Because I
am sick to death of roaming the house with a blacklight trying to find out
where the damn cat peed. When he goes out, the peeing stops. Period.

Marjorie
Dr.Carla,DVM - 18 Aug 2005 00:33 GMT
Oh and before I get off my soap box, I forgot, indoor only cats don't need
vaccinations unless they spend time at kennels, etc.
Vaccinations in cats have been shown to cause VASTS (vaccine associated soft
tissue sarcomas) or tumors.  Its not clear yet which part of the vaccines
are causing this terrible outcome.
There is a new safer rabies shot for cats, ask your vet about it next time
you go for vaccinations.
shortfuse - 18 Aug 2005 01:02 GMT
I know we get a 3-yr rabies shots for our cats. With 6 cats, that helps!
> Oh and before I get off my soap box, I forgot, indoor only cats don't need
> vaccinations unless they spend time at kennels, etc.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> There is a new safer rabies shot for cats, ask your vet about it next time
> you go for vaccinations.
MaryL - 18 Aug 2005 01:05 GMT
> Oh and before I get off my soap box, I forgot, indoor only cats don't need
> vaccinations unless they spend time at kennels, etc.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> There is a new safer rabies shot for cats, ask your vet about it next time
> you go for vaccinations.

My vet agrees that the time can be extended significantly for indoor-only
cats, especially those that have previously had a series of rabies shots.
However, he still stresses distemper shots because it is airborne.  Do you
agree?

MaryL
shortfuse - 18 Aug 2005 01:08 GMT
I know just to be on the safe side, I have my cats innoculated for all,
since I have a habit of feeding some homeless cats on/off and dont want to
take chances.

>> Oh and before I get off my soap box, I forgot, indoor only cats don't
>> need vaccinations unless they spend time at kennels, etc.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> MaryL
Victor Martinez - 18 Aug 2005 01:23 GMT
> I know just to be on the safe side, I have my cats innoculated for all,
> since I have a habit of feeding some homeless cats on/off and dont want to
> take chances.

http://www.aafponline.org/resources/guidelines/vaccine.pdf

Signature

Victor M. Martinez
Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM)
Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov
Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com

Dr.Carla,DVM - 18 Aug 2005 03:25 GMT
> My vet agrees that the time can be extended significantly for indoor-only
> cats, especially those that have previously had a series of rabies shots.
> However, he still stresses distemper shots because it is airborne.  Do you
> agree?

In 2000 the AAFP (American Association of Feline Practitioners) recommended
that "following the initial series of vaccinations and revaccination 1 year
later, cats should be vaccinated no more frequently than once every 3
years".
2 years ago I spoke with the AAFP representative at a meeting and he didn't
recommend vaccinating strict indoor only cats (don't even go out on the
porch) due to VASTS.  I haven't had any of my cats vaccinated since then.
But, that's just what I decided to do, and it doesn't mean you shouldn't
follow your or your own vet's instincts either.
Phil P. - 18 Aug 2005 10:01 GMT
> My vet agrees that the time can be extended significantly for indoor-only
> cats, especially those that have previously had a series of rabies shots.
> However, he still stresses distemper shots because it is airborne.  Do you
> agree?

Parvovirus (distemper) is not an airborne virus but it can remain viable and
infectious in the environment for >1 year.  The parvovirus vaccine is
extremely effective and confers *solid* protection for at least 8 years if
not for life.  Parvovirus (panleukopenia) is primarily a disease of kittens-
adults are very rarely infected, and when they are, its almost invariably
subclinical.

Phil
Ivor Jones - 18 Aug 2005 11:58 GMT
> Oh and before I get off my soap box, I forgot, indoor
> only cats don't need vaccinations unless they spend time
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> vet
> about it next time you go for vaccinations.

One of the great advantages of living in the UK is we don't have rabies.
We also don't have coyotes and other predators that seem to roam all over
the USA (I've never seen a coyote in San Francisco, but I'm willing to
accept they may be there..!) so our cats have a far less stressful outdoor
life.

For my part, if I were unable to allow a cat outdoors through risk of
predators or any other reason, I simply wouldn't have a cat. I would not
move into accommodation where a cat was not permitted. If I *were* forced
to live somewhere where indoor only cats were permitted, I would make sure
to choose one from a rescue shelter that was *known* to be content with
such a life. I would also give priority under those circumstances to a cat
with FIV, which I would be reluctant to allow out anyway in case an
encounter with another cat passed on the infection.

I have never heard of this VASTS you mention, could you give a site with
more information, please..?

Ivor
mlabofski@yahoo.co.uk - 18 Aug 2005 14:56 GMT
Well said that man.
Phil P. - 18 Aug 2005 15:46 GMT
> For my part, if I were unable to allow a cat outdoors through risk of
> predators or any other reason, I simply wouldn't have a cat.

That's not practical or even realistic in the USA because that mentality
would result in millions upon millions of homeless cats and a >10 times
increase in shelter killings.
Ivor Jones - 19 Aug 2005 23:45 GMT
> > For my part, if I were unable to allow a cat outdoors
> > through risk of predators or any other reason, I simply
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> homeless cats and a >10 times increase in shelter
> killings.

Something else we don't do here.

Ivor
Janet B - 19 Aug 2005 23:51 GMT
>Something else we don't do here.
>
>Ivor

do WHERE?  Wherever it is, the population doesn't compare to the US.
Human or feline or canine.

Signature

Janet B
www.bestfriendsdogobedience.com
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bestfriendsobedience/album

Phil P. - 20 Aug 2005 05:43 GMT
> > > For my part, if I were unable to allow a cat outdoors
> > > through risk of predators or any other reason, I simply
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Something else we don't do here.

That's a myth that has been fostered by the government to promote a sterling
image of a 'cat-loving' nation.  - The UK has an overpopulation problem,
also, and *certainly* does use kill-shelters.
Ivor Jones - 20 Aug 2005 20:58 GMT
> > > > For my part, if I were unable to allow a cat
> > > > outdoors through risk of predators or any other
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> UK has an overpopulation problem, also, and *certainly*
> does use kill-shelters.

Name one. Cats Protection most certainly do *not* kill.

Ivor
CatNipped - 20 Aug 2005 21:10 GMT
> > > > > For my part, if I were unable to allow a cat
> > > > > outdoors through risk of predators or any other
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Ivor

FROM:

FERAL CAT CONTROL IN THE UK
Copyright 1993, revised 2002 Sarah Hartwell

"In some years the UK's RSPCA destroy 30-35% of cats taken into their care."

"A number of British animal welfare groups run TNR schemes and numerous
individuals or groups of friends are involved with TNR of individual
colonies. However, an equal number of animal "rescue" societies euthanize
any ferals presented to them, viewing them as an unrewarding drain on their
resources. In addition, some societies or individuals cannot come to terms
with the concept of cats as wild animals and euthanize healthy feral cats
simply "to save them from their predicament" despite the fact that the cats
concerned know no other way of life. Those who support the latter opinion
claim that life in the wild is "short and brutal" and that it's more humane
to kill the cats. This is a clear case of being unable to understand that
not all cats are house-pets since they do not apply the same arguments to
the rest of Britain's wildlife."

Hugs,

CatNipped
Christina Websell - 20 Aug 2005 22:47 GMT
>> > > > > For my part, if I were unable to allow a cat
>> > > > > outdoors through risk of predators or any other
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> CatNipped

I have no time for the RSPCA.

Tweed
CatNipped - 20 Aug 2005 23:04 GMT
> >> > > > > For my part, if I were unable to allow a cat
> >> > > > > outdoors through risk of predators or any other
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
>
> Tweed

I just thought it was a bit naive, or disingenuous, to imply that the UK did
not *ever* euthanize stray cats (implied in the challenge, "Name one").

We have the equivalent of "Cats Protection" here in the US also - numerous
no-kill shelters (even though that term is, itself, disingenuous since
no-kill shelters have to turn down their over-flow who wind up in kill
shelters), but we are also honest enough to know that cat overpopulation is
a real problem and results in the deaths of millions of cats each year.

You can claim superior politics and I'll refrain from challenging it, you
can claim superior humor and I certainly won't challenge it - but I really
doubt that you guys have the stray cat / cat overpopulation problem solved
without having to euthanize, so please don't allow to go unchallenged claims
of perfect stray cat management.  This is a problem that exists everywhere
that there *are* cats and it needs to be acknowledged so it can be
addressed.

Hugs,

CatNipped
wafflycat - 21 Aug 2005 07:52 GMT
> I have no time for the RSPCA.
>
> Tweed

They are exceptionally good at publicity ;-) Luckily we have a lot more
shelters, non-RSPCA, small, private charities, that do not euthanise unless
there is a medical reason to do so. I do not give money to the RSPCA, but I
do to my local small shelter, PACT, which does not euthanise any animal that
comes ito its care unless there is a medical reason for it. It's one of the
things that annoys me about the RSPCA. It is rich, very rich, yet it
euthanises where other organisations will not. It's why the smaller
organisations have armies of volunteers out day-in-day-out raising funds,
and they get by hand-to-mouth where the money goes on the animals, not on
flash new premises such as many an RSPCA place... The RSPCA has its place,
but I'd not willingly take a cat or dog to them.

Cheers, helen s
CatNipped - 21 Aug 2005 14:49 GMT
> > I have no time for the RSPCA.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Cheers, helen s

Yep, that's exactly the same here with SPCA.  They get a lot more money, but
do so much *less* with it!

Hugs,

CatNipped
Alison - 22 Aug 2005 14:45 GMT
> > Name one. Cats Protection most certainly do *not* kill.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> CatNipped>>

The RSPCA do put some  cats to sleep.    35% will include cats that
are ill or not able to be rehomed , also bear in mind that the number
of cats hnded over as unwanted are lower than the States .
I  don't think the Iver was referring to feral cats. Sarah's not
mentioned which animal rescue societies euthenize them .  AFAIK
Alison - 22 Aug 2005 14:59 GMT
The RSPCA do put some  cats to sleep.    35% will include cats that
are ill or not able to be rehomed , also bear in mind that the number
of cats handed over as unwanted are lower than the States .
I  don't think the Iver was referring to feral cats. Sarah's not
mentioned which animal rescue societies euthenize them .
AFAIK, feral cats that are trapped by pest control will be PTS by the
pet control itself .
At  our RSPCA branch , feral cats will be neutered /spayed and
returned if requested (or rehomed )if someone will take responsibility
to feed them . If  they can't rehome they're PTS , which happens as
its hard to rehome ferals.
Alison
wafflycat - 23 Aug 2005 07:40 GMT
> The RSPCA do put some  cats to sleep.    35% will include cats that
> are ill or not able to be rehomed , also bear in mind that the number
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> its hard to rehome ferals.
> Alison

The feral stance is one of the things that really bugs me about the RSPCA.
I'll never forget that episode of Animal Hospital where a kitten was
euthanised because it was feral and it would be 'unkind' to do otherwise -
apparently. I was *fuming* - especially as I had a feral rescue curled up on
the sofa next to me. Good job Marble ended up being taken to a small rescue
charity that struggles to find every penny rather than to the RSPCA, and
makes a darned good job of socialising ferals for homing and where they
can't be, finds suitable homes where they can still be feral (albeit now
neutered/speyed) :-/

The RSPCA is good at publicity, but I now never give funds to it, but will
give what I can to the small shelters who regularly take in RSPCA rejects.

Cheers, helen s
sriddles@aol.com - 23 Aug 2005 14:43 GMT
> The feral stance is one of the things that really bugs me about the RSPCA.
> I'll never forget that episode of Animal Hospital where a kitten was
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Cheers, helen s

I understand your anger. Feral cats don't have a chance in this
community either. People trap them all the time and bring them to
Animal Control. We try to do what we can, but about the only chance
they have at a home is if someone asks for barn cats. I know they can
be tamed. But here, there's too many healthy, tame cats already that
are waiting for a home. People won't ever take on a feral. They get PTS
immediately at the municipal shelter. Several years ago I took four of
them for barn cats. I didn't think they would last long, since Mother
Nature is so hard on barn cats, but I figured they'd at least have a
chance. To my surprise, I still have three of them. Even though I feed
them, they are still very wary of me, won't let me too close.

Sherry

Sherry
moggycat@aol.com - 25 Aug 2005 12:44 GMT
> > The RSPCA do put some  cats to sleep.    35% will include cats that
> > are ill or not able to be rehomed , also bear in mind that the number
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> The RSPCA is good at publicity, but I now never give funds to it, but will
> give what I can to the small shelters who regularly take in RSPCA rejects.

I was also fuming.  I've had several ferals ()some tamed late) and
tamed several feral kittens.  The RSPCA is primarily interested in
publcity and glory.  They will restore living skeleton dogs or horses
to health just so they can do a "before and after" (even though the
animals' internal organs must be shot to hell) but the ones I've
encountered don't give a damn about cats. I recall one rescue - the
woman first called the RSPCA about a cat on a roof and they would only
attend if she called the local paper to get a photographer!  One of my
former colleagues had her elderly but healthy cat "accidentally" put
down by the RSPCA when they identified it as a starving stray.  Another
had a cat destroyed by them because it was an "unhandleable feral" - it
was a timid cat that had been trapped in someone's house and was scared
out of its wits.  Saying it was a mistake doesn't bring back someone's
beloved pet.

I will never give money to the RSPCA.  I will never take a cat to them
- I'd rather take it to the vet myself.  I've had cats that were RSPCA
rejects ("it's too old to get a home").  As far as I can make out they
are only interested in dogs, horses and publicity that shows them in a
positive light (and I've said as much when they send round begging
mailshots).  A damning report about them got published some years ago
in either the Guardian or Observer newspaper.  Their image and reality
seem to be poles apart.
Ivor Jones - 22 Aug 2005 15:15 GMT
[snip]

> The RSPCA do put some  cats to sleep.    35% will include
> cats that are ill or not able to be rehomed , also bear
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Sarah's not mentioned which animal rescue societies
> euthenize them .  AFAIK

I was unaware the RSPCA did so and that has changed my opinion of them
completely :-(

Cats Protection (www.cats.org.uk) for whom I volunteer, most definitely do
*NOT* euthanise *except* on strict veterinary advice such as in severe
cases of FeLV or full blown AIDS (*not* FIV alone).

Ivor
Alison - 22 Aug 2005 17:17 GMT
> [snip]
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> *NOT* euthanise *except* on strict veterinary advice such as in severe
> cases of FeLV or full blown AIDS (*not* FIV alone).

 AFAIK   The 35%  is an estimate from the early 90's . They pledged
to bring the percentage down.   There is the main RSPCA which runs the
main homes and hospitals and there are independent branches who do
their own rehoming so I don't know if any percentages given cover
branches or not. Our local branch has about 50 adult cats and some
kittens which is high but rehoming tends to be slow at this time of
the year for adult cats.
Do the CP ever turn cats away, what do they do if they have no room
or do they always manage?
     Alison
Phil P. - 21 Aug 2005 10:33 GMT
> > > > > For my part, if I were unable to allow a cat
> > > > > outdoors through risk of predators or any other
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Name one. Cats Protection most certainly do *not* kill.

RSPCA.
Alison - 22 Aug 2005 14:38 GMT
> > > That's not practical or even realistic in the USA because
> > > that mentality would result in millions upon millions of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> That's a myth that has been fostered by the government to promote a sterling
> image of a 'cat-loving' nation. >>>

 Britain is considered to be a pet loving nation,  it might well be a
myth but not one fostered by the goverment.

> - The UK has an overpopulation problem,>>

Yes we do but proportionally not as high as the US

> also, and *certainly* does use kill-shelters.>>>

The RSPCA  PTS cats they can't rehome, but I can't think off hand of
other organisations that do.   The RSPCA is not goverment run.
Alison
Phil P. - 25 Aug 2005 13:13 GMT
> other organisations that do.   The RSPCA is not goverment run.

Are there any government run animal welfare organizations in the UK?
Alison - 25 Aug 2005 17:13 GMT
> > other organisations that do.   The RSPCA is not goverment run.
>
> Are there any government run animal welfare organizations in the
UK?>>

Not AFAIK , they don't even contribute any money to the RSPCA . The
RSPCA is a charity and has to support itself.   There's DEFRA which is
a goverment division,
http://www.defra.gov.uk/animalh/animindx.htm
and the local councils deal with stray dogs.
Is that the same in the US and the SPCA.  I saw a programme about the
SPCA in New York and they were like cops, they had guns and could go
into people's property . I was impressed. <G>
Alison
MatSav - 27 Aug 2005 14:45 GMT
>> > other organisations that do.   The RSPCA is not goverment run.
>>
>> Are there any government run animal welfare organizations in the
>UK?>>
>
>Not AFAIK ,

The Veterinary Laboratories Agency is one:

http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/vla/

See also

http://www.direct.gov.uk/Nl1/Newsroom/NewsroomArticles/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4014870&
chk=JiY6ig


Signature

MatSav

wafflycat - 29 Aug 2005 08:57 GMT
> The Veterinary Laboratories Agency is one:
>
> http://www.defra.gov.uk/corporate/vla/

Which is not really an animal welfare organisation as such, in the same way
as RSPCA and the smaller charities the public donate to. Its brief is more
to do with disease in farm animals, along the lines of foot & mouth. They
certainly have no interface with joe public, but link up with industry. Put
it this way - you wouldn't approach the VLA for help with vet bills... for
that low-cost neutering. Donations to Defra are our taxes ;-)

> See also
>
> http://www.direct.gov.uk/Nl1/Newsroom/NewsroomArticles/fs/en?CONTENT_ID=4014870&
chk=JiY6ig

Launch of a new bit of draft legislation for public consultation. Not sure
if it made the statute books or not. We do already have animal cruelty
legislation. One thing to remember about over here is that farm animals &
pets are viewed differently.

Basically in cases of animal cruelty, the law is delegated (for want of a
better word) to the RSPCA to uphold - so it's the RSPCA which bring
prosecutions against people for animal cruelty. Saying that, the RSPCA is
incredibly good at publicity raising money for its shelters and for
highlighting cases of cruelty (which is a vital part of animal welfare
education), but it can be less enthusiastic about rescue itself...

See

<http://new.edp24.co.uk/content/news/story.aspx?brand=EDPOnline&category=News&tBr
and=edponline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED28%20Aug%202005%2018%3A11%3A07%3A010
>

Cheers, helen s
nightshade - 21 Aug 2005 23:25 GMT
We feed all the strays that come around and wonder why people didn't take
care of their cats rather than let them just run outside where the odds are
they WILL be killed, or injured. We've had one with feline leukemia, there
have been raccoons and possums (whether rabid or not is irrelevant, they are
still  a threat to cats along with stray dogs and wolves). Our newest kitten
(18 weeks) was a stray and almost hit by an electrical truck. I just found
this last week. Long story... The cat I took my name from (I guess it's
right, I named him was wandering outside one winter. I opened the door and
he ran back in.Whose quote was "For my part etc.

>> For my part, if I were unable to allow a cat outdoors through risk of
>> predators or any other reason, I simply wouldn't have a cat.
>
> That's not practical or even realistic in the USA because that mentality
> would result in millions upon millions of homeless cats and a >10 times
> increase in shelter killings.
Dr.Carla,DVM - 19 Aug 2005 04:31 GMT
Sure.  Here are a couple articles from veterinarypartner.com concerning
vaccine associated soft tissue sarcomas (VASTS) in cats.
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=42

http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&S=0&C=0&A=526

>> Oh and before I get off my soap box, I forgot, indoor
>> only cats don't need vaccinations unless they spend time
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Ivor
redbelly98@yahoo.com - 20 Aug 2005 02:36 GMT
> Oh and before I get off my soap box, I forgot, indoor only cats don't need
> vaccinations unless they spend time at kennels, etc.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> There is a new safer rabies shot for cats, ask your vet about it next time
> you go for vaccinations.

What about indoor-only cats and obesity?  That can't be very healthy.

Mark
MaryL - 20 Aug 2005 03:02 GMT
>> Oh and before I get off my soap box, I forgot, indoor only cats don't
>> need
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Mark

Being an indoor-only cat should not lead to obesity.  Some cats (and dogs)
are overfed and underexercised, but that has nothing to do with being
indoors.  It has *everything* to do with their caregivers.

MaryL
Phil P. - 20 Aug 2005 05:41 GMT
> > Oh and before I get off my soap box, I forgot, indoor only cats don't need
> > vaccinations unless they spend time at kennels, etc.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> What about indoor-only cats and obesity?  That can't be very healthy.

Obesity has *nothing* to do with whether the cat is an indoor or
free-roaming outdoor cat.  Feline obesity is a result of overfeeding and
failure to provide exercise for the cat- IOW, its the *owner's* fault.
Dr.Carla,DVM - 20 Aug 2005 05:53 GMT
None of my cats are obese.
Actually the only obese cat I owned was the outdoor one that died of Feline
Leukemia
Wendy - 20 Aug 2005 12:26 GMT
>> > Oh and before I get off my soap box, I forgot, indoor only cats don't
> need
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> free-roaming outdoor cat.  Feline obesity is a result of overfeeding and
> failure to provide exercise for the cat- IOW, its the *owner's* fault.

I have to agree. Our first cat after we moved in our house was a confirmed
indoor/outdoor fat cat. She got plenty of exercise but we were feeding her
grocery store food and going by the package directions for how much to give
her.  I plead ignorance because I had never heard of the premium foods that
my guys get now. She passed at 13 of kidney failure at 13 lbs. She should
have been a 10 lb. cat. -my fault. I've tried harder with subsequent kitties
and feed them better quality food.
shortfuse - 20 Aug 2005 13:32 GMT
At our vets office there is a chart to track when your cat is obesed. My
Nightshade is about 14 lbs but he is solid as a rock. Mostly "muscle". We
live in a house where they can run up/down the stairs and through the
house,too...So even though they are all over 10 lbs, I have not been told
they were overwt.
mlabofski@yahoo.co.uk - 18 Aug 2005 14:46 GMT
Wow, sounds like a nightmare, and I thought East London was dangerous
LOL!  As I say, my cat only goes in my back garden, but my friends 5
cats are out most of the time, have had all their shots, never run into
stray dogs (don't think they let dogs out on their own round here), and
would go crazy if they were in all the time.  They don't go far away,
but nobody seems to mind them visiting their gardens, no-one ever
complains.  They have flea collars, and never get mites or ticks here.
There is no way they could keep them inside, and wouldn't want to
restrict them like that, and they come to no harm.
Lesley - 19 Aug 2005 13:22 GMT
> Wow, sounds like a nightmare, and I thought East London was dangerous
> LOL!

You're in East London as well? Where?

I live on  a very busy main road so I keep the Furballs indoors. Also
although most cats can avoid dogs or foxes which are the main predatos
likely to go for a cat, they can't avoid the biggest danger of
all...People...

A friend of mine had the sheer Hell of watching her 8 month old brother
and sister kitties die in front of her because a neighbour poisoned
them to "keep them off his lawn". Alas when she called the police the
guy denied he had done it and the police weren't particularly
interested. She has of course since moved away and her new kitties do
not go out

Incidentally a few years ago when we had nicer neighbours than we do
now, they would let us use the downstairs gardens and Fugazi (RB) would
come out and potter round for a bit but always keeping one eye on us in
case we went in. Meanwhile her sister Isis (also RB) would sit on our
bathroom windowsill and scream at us to come back up.

One day I made the very silly mistake of thinking that if she was taken
outside she would come to enjoy it so I picked her up. This cat was a
completely soppy lap fungus and when I carried her out of the flat and
she realised what I was thinking that was the first, the last and the
only time that she  bit me...she was NOT going out!!!!!

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs
Lesley - 19 Aug 2005 13:26 GMT
Whoops! Sorry I don't know why the message came through twice!
Lesley - 19 Aug 2005 13:22 GMT
> Wow, sounds like a nightmare, and I thought East London was dangerous
> LOL!

You're in East London as well? Where?

I live on  a very busy main road so I keep the Furballs indoors. Also
although most cats can avoid dogs or foxes which are the main predatos
likely to go for a cat, they can't avoid the biggest danger of
all...People...

A friend of mine had the sheer Hell of watching her 8 month old brother
and sister kitties die in front of her because a neighbour poisoned
them to "keep them off his lawn". Alas when she called the police the
guy denied he had done it and the police weren't particularly
interested. She has of course since moved away and her new kitties do
not go out

Incidentally a few years ago when we had nicer neighbours than we do
now, they would let us use the downstairs gardens and Fugazi (RB) would
come out and potter round for a bit but always keeping one eye on us in
case we went in. Meanwhile her sister Isis (also RB) would sit on our
bathroom windowsill and scream at us to come back up.

One day I made the very silly mistake of thinking that if she was taken
outside she would come to enjoy it so I picked her up. This cat was a
completely soppy lap fungus and when I carried her out of the flat and
she realised what I was thinking that was the first, the last and the
only time that she  bit me...she was NOT going out!!!!!

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs
mlabofski@yahoo.co.uk - 22 Aug 2005 19:53 GMT
> > Wow, sounds like a nightmare, and I thought East London was dangerous
> > LOL!
>
> You're in East London as well? Where?

Walthamstow, where are you?

Marcia, just returned from Yorkshire and feeling a bit down on East
London at the moment, I saw the sky properly for the 1st time in ages!
Lesley - 23 Aug 2005 15:26 GMT
> > You're in East London as well? Where?
>
> Walthamstow, where are you?

Bow. Small world!

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs
Smokie Darling (Annie) - 17 Aug 2005 20:18 GMT
> > First let me say I'm not being antagonistic, I'm just interested in the
> > (apparent) culture difference between the US & the UK as regards our
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Tweed

Piggy-backing on Tweed (lightly, dear, wouldn't want to hurt you):

Another thing, at least in my area...  I've seen (and reported) people
who swerve their vehicle in order TO hit a cat, I've seen them drive
onto people's lawns (or sidewalks, or the other side of the road) in
order to run over a cat.  Then we've got the ones (in my
neighbo(u)rhood) who enjoy poisoning animals (they've been reported as
well) or shooting them (not just cats).

Where I live the predators are as Tweed listed, then there are the
feral dogs, who do not know how to "kill" correctly, and that is the
worst thing to find (they don't do a kill bite at the throat or spine -
they just rip that animal apart while it's still fighting) and/or hear.
I've seen this, and gotten bitten trying to stop an attack on a little
kid (I managed, baseball bats are wonderful things) with several other
people.

Some of the predators here aren't just interested in cats, they like to
get dogs, ponies, and children too.  One is only allowed to kill a
predator if it's attacking a child (or adult), and even then one gets
to deal with fines and punishment for killing "protected" species
(punishment seems to be community service in the few cases I know
about).

Smokie Darling (Annie) - all of my masters and mistresses now prefer
the "great" indoors, so long as they can look outside.
Karen - 17 Aug 2005 20:30 GMT
> > First let me say I'm not being antagonistic, I'm just interested in the
> > (apparent) culture difference between the US & the UK as regards our
[quoted text clipped - 43 lines]
>
> Tweed

Tweed, you got. You would be surprised even in town there are predators. AND
we seem to have a lot more sicko neighbors.
mlabofski@yahoo.co.uk - 18 Aug 2005 15:09 GMT
Re: foxes.  I don't think an urban British fox would attack a cat,
perhaps a bunny or chicken in a cage but not a cat, there's more than
enough food for them without even attempting a cat.  Plus surely a cat
would win hands down against a British fox?  I think the fox would leg
it rather than attack, whereas the cat might have a go just cos it's a
cat and that's what cats do.

To be honest, in England anyway, I'd be much more worried about what a
cat was going to get up to with the local wildlife/birds rather than
anything getting to the cat. I found somebodies pet hamster or
something not sure it was such a mess in my garden, and it wasn't Otis
that did it which was weird.
cardkitty - 18 Aug 2005 16:32 GMT
My little Siega loves to go outside.. but we only let her when we are
out too.  Here in Arizona, sometimes our concrete porch (and often even
the dirt) will be too hot for her feet (of course she doesn't believe
us 'til she trys it for herself.)  Plus, after being outside for a
little while she starts to chew on some of the grasses and weeds.
Yeah, then she either chocks on it then spits it out or gets a little
sick.  She still hasn't figured that one out so we just watch her while
we're out.

Kathryn

----------------------------------------
Who are Kathryn & Siega?
http://www.CardsYourWay.US/about_me.html
badwilson - 19 Aug 2005 03:41 GMT
> My little Siega loves to go outside.. but we only let her when we are
> out too.  Here in Arizona, sometimes our concrete porch (and often
> even the dirt) will be too hot for her feet (of course she doesn't
> believe us 'til she trys it for herself.)  Plus, after being outside
> for a little while she starts to chew on some of the grasses and
> weeds. Yeah, then she either chocks on it then spits it out or gets
a
> little sick.  She still hasn't figured that one out so we just watch
> her while we're out.
>
> Kathryn

Cats are supposed to eat grass, it's normal.  They eat it because then
they puke it up.  It helps with their hairballs.  My cat Vino is
indoor only and I grow grass in pots for him to eat.  Sometimes I let
him out in the yard for a few minutes, supervised.  The first thing he
does is gobble up as much grass as he can.  I take him back inside and
he pukes it up.  A bit of a mess to clean up but I don't mind because
I know it's good for him.
--
Britta
"There is no snooze button on a cat who wants breakfast." -- Unknown
Check out pictures of Vino at:
http://photos.yahoo.com/badwilson click on the Vino album
cardkitty - 19 Aug 2005 17:00 GMT
Britta,

Vino is very cute!  I love his pictures.  Thanks for sharing.

Kathryn

Who are Kathryn & Siega?
http://www.CardsYourWay.US/about_me.html
Victor M - 17 Aug 2005 19:38 GMT
> With regard to letting cats out:  All the cats I know go outside, they

That's the way it is back home in Mexico. And that's how we kept our
beloved Quetzie. We went through half a dozen cats that way, many would
just disappear and would be presumed dead.

> they don't go too far but suss out gardens, wildlife, other cats and
> people, and hopefully realise that traffic isn't for playing with.

Cats are not people.

> It seems natural for a cat to want to venture outside, and to me it's
> cruel to keep them inside (unless they're not interested).

We have 7 indoor-only cats. Of those 7, Xoxo spent the first 2 years of
his life living outdoors exclusively. Guess which one of our cats shows
absolutely no interest in going outside?
It's not cruel, as long as you provide them with enough toys, cat
trees, etc., to keep them busy. Cats sleep up to 18 hours per day!

> It seems that in the US people are much more likely to force cats to
> stay indoors, or take them out on a leash (something I've NEVER heard

Indoor-only cats live longer, healthier lives.

> It's interesting, do you think it's a cultural thing?  How long have

Might be. But I'm not american and after our Quetzie died in surgery
after being run over by a car I swore I'd never again allow one of my
pets to be hit by a car. It's a 100% preventable accident, and I choose
to prevent it. I will never go through that much pain if I can help it.

Cheers.

Victor
Jennifer - 17 Aug 2005 19:58 GMT
><snip>
> It seems natural for a cat to want to venture outside, and to me it's
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> people in the US been doing these things?  Perhaps it's not the general
> population, just people in cat groups :)

I live in the US, close to DC, and I keep my cats indoors because:

- There are lots of animals out there that may cause physical harm.
Foxes, feral dogs and cats, skunks, etc.  Rabies is relatively common
all throughout the mid-Atlantic region.  Lyme disease is also very
common in my area.

- There's a lot of native wildlife that I don't think should be
pillaged by my non-native cats, including birds and insects.

-  I see it as my responsibility to keep my pets off of other peoples'
property.  My choice to keep pet cats should not affect my neighbors -
no pooping in their gardens, no digging up their potted plants, no
antagonizing their pets, etc.

- On a related note, there are people who do not take kindly to having
their yards and gardens disturbed by loose animals, and they can and
will call animal control, or deliberately poison wandering pets.

- There is a ton of traffic everywhere in the DC area.  Even if traffic
was slow, it only takes one car to flatten your cat.  In fact, one of
my aunts lives in farm country where traffic is light, and she's had
two cats killed by passing cars in the last five years.

When I decided to adopt cats, I took responsibility for their welfare
and their behavior.  I provide an interesting, continuously-changing
indoor environment for them (luckily, that often means moving cat trees
around.  As far as they're concerned, if it's in a different room, it's
a brand new toy :).  I make sure they get a healthy diet and plenty of
exercise, and I'm still debating building them an outdoor enclosure.

Outdoor enclosures really seem to be the best solution.  They allow the
cats access to the outdoors, which many seem to enjoy, while protecting
them from most of the dangers.

I don't think it's really cultural; it's just practical.  Unless
feeling responsible for your cats health and for not bothering your
neighbors is a cultural thing  :)

Also, keeping cats indoors really doesn't seem cruel at all. Seriously
- I know many many indoor cats, and the only ones that seem "unhappy"
(anthropormorphizing, I know) are the ones that seem bored, but indoors
does not have to equal bored.

It really is most common (and recommended) in the US to keep cats
indoors, or at least in outdoor enclosures.

--
Jennifer
kilikini - 17 Aug 2005 20:15 GMT
> ><snip>
> > It seems natural for a cat to want to venture outside, and to me it's
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
> --
> Jennifer

Well said, Jennifer.

kili
Enfilade - 18 Aug 2005 20:30 GMT
> It really is most common (and recommended) in the US to keep cats
> indoors, or at least in outdoor enclosures.

Our four are all indoors-only.  Kumani and Tyche were raised indoors
from age 3 weeks on.  Nocturne has shown no desire to go outside.
Smokey, who used to be a feral, actively /hates/ outside, so much that
he runs away from open windows and the balcony doors, crying and
screaming in distress.

The way I see it, a cat is not a child.  She does not understand "stay
in the yard" nor does she obey shouted orders (like "look out for that
car!").

I believe that it is a pet owner's responsibility not to let their
animals, dog or cat, roam around at large where they can foul the
neighbour's lawns, upset neighbours, attack other pets, etc.

Furthermore, it is also a pet owner's responsibility not to allow their
animals into dangerous situations, and IMHO, outside (with cars, dogs,
coyotes, cougars/bobcats, and sicko humans) is a dangerous place.
Would you let your child go to the park alone in an area where you know
child molesters lived?  That's why I won't let my cats out in an area
where I know coyotes live.

Now, if your cat is indoors-only, then it is your responsibility that
they get proper exercise, have toys and get playtime to keep them
stimulated and engaged and active, have open windows and the occasional
walk to get fresh air, etc.

--Fil
shortfuse - 19 Aug 2005 00:22 GMT
I agree, Fil....

>> It really is most common (and recommended) in the US to keep cats
>> indoors, or at least in outdoor enclosures.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> --Fil
MaryL - 19 Aug 2005 01:04 GMT
>> It really is most common (and recommended) in the US to keep cats
>> indoors, or at least in outdoor enclosures.
>
> --Fil

Well stated (and good analogy with child molesters)!

MaryL
MaryL - 17 Aug 2005 20:33 GMT
> First let me say I'm not being antagonistic, I'm just interested in the
> (apparent) culture difference between the US & the UK as regards our
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Marcia
> Lord Otis's slave and minder

It may be partly cultural, but I think it is also at least partly
environmental.  There are numerous natural predators in the U.S. (predators
that prey on cats, that is) that apparently are not a problem in England.
We sometimes have problems with acts of deliberate cruelty plus instances of
accidents (such as, ingestion of antifreeze).  I can't really address that
last point in a comparative sense with any real accuracy.  In addition,
there is a problem that surely occurs in *both* Britain and the U.S. -- that
is, automobiles.  It only takes one car at the wrong time to kill or badly
injure a cat.

All of my cats have been very happy as indoor cats, even the one that
started life as a feral cat.  He showed a great interest in going outdoors
for about the first year but not afterwards.  None of my others have even
shown an interest in going outdoors, although I realize that this is not
true for many cats.  I do provide lots of attention, toys, scratching posts,
and cat trees.  I personally think that they are happier -- and certainly
more healthy -- than many outdoor cats that have been injured in cat fights
or other ways.  I do realize that I may be rationalizing and there is room
for a true difference of opinion, but I also believe that each situation
(indoor vs. outdoor) has some advantages and some disadvantages.

MaryL

My cats --
Duffy: http://tinyurl.com/cslwf
Holly: http://tinyurl.com/9t68o
Duffy and Holly together: http://tinyurl.com/8b47e
mlabofski@yahoo.co.uk - 18 Aug 2005 14:48 GMT
I do agree about the cars, cats (and dogs) do get killed by them, and
then there's always stories (urban myths possibly?) about people
stealing cats for labs or fur.  I never understood about all the US
wildlife before, and now that side of it definately makes sense, I
guess if they're happy being indoors that's fine.  I was surprised that
when I gave Otis his freedom (and a rather old age) he never went for
it and is happy to sunbathe in the back garden without attempting to
climb the fences.
Ajanta - 17 Aug 2005 20:46 GMT
: First let me say I'm not being antagonistic, I'm just interested in the
: (apparent) culture difference between the US & the UK as regards our
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
: that either way is right, it's just interesting how people do things
: differently.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. Love of confinement is not something
that comes naturally to any animal.

I do not own a cat, but have a "relationship" of sorts with "stray" one
that visits me almost daily. I give her some food and you might think
that's why she comes, and so would have I if it were not for the fact
that she visited me (actually my 3rd floor porch, I was a just a side
attraction) for 2-3 months before I started feeding her.

Some well-meaning friends have suggested I "adopt" her. Even if I was
tempted for a moment, I have been stopped by remembering the life two
of my friends' cats have, and then watching this one jump the fences,
sniff the entire yards, chase after a real or imaginary mouse, climb up
three floors to sun-bathe, scan three backyards from there and rush
down if she saw something interesting, and many such activities. She
comes inside, wants to be petted, sits on different rugs for 10-15
minutes each, even watches TV now and then, but always wants to return
to outdoors after 1-2 hours.

If you live in an area with lots of wild animals, or in an extremely
urban environment, confinement may make sense. However, in most cases
cats deserve more freedom than we give them. I am happy to hear about
their life in UK.

: Marcia
: Lord Otis's slave and minder
claudel - 17 Aug 2005 21:07 GMT
>First let me say I'm not being antagonistic, I'm just interested in the
>(apparent) culture difference between the US & the UK as regards our
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>Marcia
>Lord Otis's slave and minder

My friend, Bubba,

http://www.sonic.net/~claudel/bubba/bubba.html

absolutely refuses to go outside. If I leave the
door open he will go to it and look out, but
won't step thru unless I'm right there and coax
him to do so. I think that the last time he was
outside he has at least one bad experience resulting
in him winding up in the pound, where he found me.

The other day I left the door open and one of
the neighbor's tiny kittens came inside. When
Bubba saw it he went over to check it out and
it arched and hissed at him. Bubba ran off and
hid behind the couch for awhile. All 20Lbs of
him afraid of a little black kitten 1/10 his size...

He's not at all skittish with people though. He's
very outgoing and friendly. I think he believes
that he's a human or something.

Claude
chas - 17 Aug 2005 21:38 GMT
I'm in the UK and my cat is mostly an indoor cat. She is a rescue cat and
was extremely nervous of everything when I first got her.

She also has health problems which mean ongoing medication.

However - we let her out in the back garden when we are at home, or sitting
out there ourselves and she loves it. She mostly sits around out there with
us, or sits sniffing the catmint!

But she's never left alone out there or let out at night etc....

It seems a compromise which she is happy with.

chas
223rem - 17 Aug 2005 23:43 GMT
America is obsessed with safety. For example, everything
has to be  'safe for the children'. Political correctness
is another national obsession. Of course, the fact
is that we are a  violent, inhumane society.
Ivor Jones - 18 Aug 2005 12:02 GMT
> America is obsessed with safety. For example, everything
> has to be  'safe for the children'. Political correctness
> is another national obsession. Of course, the fact
> is that we are a  violent, inhumane society.

No, America is obsessed with ligitation, or fear of litigation. Every time
someone so much as sneezes out of place, they're slapped with a lawsuit.
Well that's how it appears to us over here in the UK anyway.

It's like speed limits, they say you have to keep your speed below 30mph
in case you hit a child. What the hell is the child doing in the middle of
the road in the first place..? Don't their parents educate them..?

Ivor
Dan M - 18 Aug 2005 19:34 GMT
> No, America is obsessed with ligitation, or fear of litigation. Every time
> someone so much as sneezes out of place, they're slapped with a lawsuit.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Ivor

I don't know how it is in the UK, but in the US the answer to that
question is "No". They trust in the schools to educate their kids, train
them in how to behave, teach them common sense, etc. My perception is that
the vast majority of US parents don't educate their kids.

Not even in the importnat stuff, like how to treat cats properly.

Dan
Dr.Carla,DVM - 18 Aug 2005 00:28 GMT
My 3 cats are indoor only cats and here's why;
My 1st cat (when I was 4), run over by car
2nd cat (I was 16) died of Feline Leukemia
3rd & 4th cats run over by car (I was in college).
And the 4th cat was only allowed outside while someone was watching it....
So my mother got to watch the cat get run over by a car.
Its deplorable how long it took for me to learn this lesson.

About cats wanting to go outside; a heroin addict wants to shoot up too.
I don't think either is good for their health.
And all indoor cats aren't declawed.
And all vets don't agree with declawing cats and some of us out right refuse
to do it completely.

These are just some of my many un-humble opinions.

Oh yea, indoor only cats can live 20+ years (mine are now 14, 14 & 16).
Average life expectance for an outdoor cat (at least in these parts) is 8
years.

(I'll try not to fall off this very tall soap box).
Charlie Wilkes - 18 Aug 2005 00:33 GMT
>It's interesting, do you think it's a cultural thing?  How long have
>people in the US been doing these things?  Perhaps it's not the general
>population, just people in cat groups :)  As I say, I wasn't saying
>that either way is right, it's just interesting how people do things
>differently.

I live in a rural area in Western Washington, and my experience has
made me wary.  I see freshly killed animals on the road every day,
including a few cats.

My cat, Tweaker, came to be my pet because I found him on the road
after being hit by a car.  He had been an outdoor barn cat.  Once he
recuperated, it was very clear he had no desire to go anywhere.  So, I
keep him inside.  Once in awhile I let him outside for a little while,
but only if I am standing right there.

I was taking care of an elderly (14-yo) dog for a friend who got
flooded out of her home.  Early this spring, he wandered onto the road
in front of my house while I was inside looking for my car keys, and
someone ran him down and splattered him down 150 feet of pavement.  It
was easy to see what had happened.  The driver crossed the center line
to hit the dog.

I have a lot of equipment and junked cars here, most belonging to a
tenant who is a mechanic and uses them for his projects.  We stay on
top of anything important, but that's about it.  My next-door neighbor
here is a yard & garden enthusiast, and he hates me, although we have
never met or spoken.  He is also the macho type, and had a sign in his
driveway warning that he will shoot intruders, but I think maybe the
cops made him take it down.  He complained to the county, but it
backfired because we aren't doing anything wrong.  I'm pretty sure he
ran the dog down.  I hear gunshots in his backyard now and then, and I
imagine he might kill any cat or dog that set foot on his property,
especially if he thought it belonged to me.

So that is the cultural milieu in which I am operating.

Charlie
Glitter Ninja - 18 Aug 2005 00:44 GMT
>It seems natural for a cat to want to venture outside, and to me it's
>cruel to keep them inside (unless they're not interested).

 Cats are domesticated.  Most do not mind being kept indoors.  Between
my own cats and my family's, I've known 11 cats and all were indoors and
all were happy.
 I truly feel it's cruel, at least where I live, to let my cats out.  
We live so close to the "wilderness" that at nights I hear the coyotes
howling, so there are definitely predators.  We're right next to a busy
highway, and I couldn't bear knowing I let my cat out just to get run
over on the road.  There's a lot of crazy people in the world who think
it's fun to torture animals.  Add disease on top of that and there's
four extremely powerful reasons to NOT let your cat outside.

Stacia
John Doe - 18 Aug 2005 08:59 GMT
troll

mlabofski yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Path: newssvr17.news.prodigy.com!newsdbm02.news.prodigy.com!newsdst01.news.prodigy.com!newsmst01b.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.com!newscon02.news.prodigy.com!prodigy.net!news.glorb.com!postnews.google.com!g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
> From: mlabofski yahoo.co.uk
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> Marcia
> Lord Otis's slave and minder

             
Phil P. - 18 Aug 2005 09:48 GMT
> It seems natural for a cat to want to venture outside, and to me it's
> cruel to keep them inside (unless they're not interested).

Its a cultural thing.  Most (>60%) cat owners in the U.S. feel that its
cruel to expose cats to the stress and dangers outside of a safe home.  An
outdoor cat lives a more stressful life than an indoor cat.

If you know a little about cats, and if you're sensitive to your cat's
needs, you can provide your cat with a rich, happy, healthy, and safe life
indoors.

Phil
mlabofski@yahoo.co.uk - 18 Aug 2005 14:55 GMT
Well I don't think we should have pets and keep them in prison if they
don't want to stay in.  Mine goes out in the summer and its safe, if it
wasn't safe I guess I wouldn't have got a cat, I'd have got a goldfish.
Karen - 18 Aug 2005 15:21 GMT
> Well I don't think we should have pets and keep them in prison if they
> don't want to stay in.  Mine goes out in the summer and its safe, if it
> wasn't safe I guess I wouldn't have got a cat, I'd have got a goldfish.

The problem over here is if you went by that rule a huge percentage of the
population would not have cats and there would be a worse homeless problem
than now. I live in a fairly large city and still late at night you can see
predators in town, especially towards the edges. We have a big rural
population and so you would nix out all those people. I mean, it's just not
the same thing. Now I persoanlly grew up with indoor outdoor cats and I sure
wish mine could be, but I don't own a house. We don't have the kind of
enclosed gardens you guys have either. Certainly apartment dwellers have no
garden or yard, so then you would whack out a whole other part of the
population from having cats. Does that seem practical?
Roberta Bagshaw - 19 Aug 2005 03:14 GMT
Here in Australia, there is a large proportion of the human population that
sadly regard cats as vermin!  Cats (being an introduced species) are truly
superb killing machines, and can have a devastating effect on the native
wildlife.  Also, here in Australia there are few native animals that would
challenge a fully grown cat.  The only thing that has killed a cat of mine
over the years has been a bite from a venomous snake!

So, in order to keep native wildlife (especially our unique birds and rare
and endangered marsupials)  relatively safe, we have personally attempted to
keep our cats in our backyard, (one of ours will insist of jumping the fence
to check out the neighbours yard),

We ALWAYS (that is without fail!) call them indoors late afternoon and they
are locked in the house for the night (when cats generally do most of their
environmental damage).  Also, by keeping our cats locked in at night, we
ensure that our cats are not inflicting damage on the wildlife, and they are
not in danger from attack from other (feral) cats or from road traffic etc.

Needless to say we have a policy of having our cats sterilized, so that we
can at least rest in the knowledge that we are not contributing towards the
HUGE urban problem of unwanted, uncared for and homeless animals.
Signature

Roberta Bagshaw (Sec.)
Friends of the RSPCA Geraldton Auxiliary
Western Australia
email: rbagshaw@midwest.com.au

>> Well I don't think we should have pets and keep them in prison if they
>> don't want to stay in.  Mine goes out in the summer and its safe, if it
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> garden or yard, so then you would whack out a whole other part of the
> population from having cats. Does that seem practical?
Phil P. - 18 Aug 2005 15:45 GMT
> Well I don't think we should have pets and keep them in prison

Indoor life for a cats only seems like 'prison' to you because perhaps you
don't know very much about cats and you also lack the imagination and
creativity
to create a stimulating and interesting indoor environment for your cat.
Its much easier and takes less effort to mindlessly swing open the door.
Some people have a cat door because even opening the door takes too much
thought and effort.

The time has past when we can debate about where cats should live. The cats
are here, now, and we are responsible for them.  I think you shouldn't have
a cat if you can't provide a safe environment for her.
Wendy - 20 Aug 2005 12:42 GMT
> Well I don't think we should have pets and keep them in prison if they
> don't want to stay in.  Mine goes out in the summer and its safe, if it
> wasn't safe I guess I wouldn't have got a cat, I'd have got a goldfish.

I'm glad it's safe for your cat to go out. So much easier for you. I just
wish the people who have found a way to train their cats to stay away from
traffic would tell the rest of us how to do it. How do you train your cat
not to fight with a neighborhood cat and come home with wounds that can (and
do) abscess and/or spread disease? You are really lucky that ALL of your
neighbors love cats and have no objections to your guys wandering into their
gardens to poop in their flower bed. Oh, you trained them to stay in your
garden exclusively? Please enlighten me to your training method. Like I said
much easier for me if I could let mine out. I would never again have to
scoop a litter tray and would have more room in my living room without the
cat tree. I wouldn't have to wash the curtains as often to get off the cat
hair from them climbing on and off of the window sills etc etc. So if there
is a training method to teach my cats to stay out of trouble outside I'd
like to know about it.

In the meantime I'll keep them inside where they won't tangle with the stray
cats I've seen wandering the neighborhood, where I don't have to worry about
whether they look both ways before crossing the street, don't have to worry
about some of the children who are being raised by cat hating parents and
don't have to worry about pissing off the neighbors when my cat is in their
garden using it as a litter box.

W
mlabofski@yahoo.co.uk - 22 Aug 2005 20:02 GMT
> > Well I don't think we should have pets and keep them in prison if they
> > don't want to stay in.  Mine goes out in the summer and its safe, if it
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> not to fight with a neighborhood cat and come home with wounds that can (and
> do) abscess and/or spread disease?

I don't have to train him, he didn't move into a house with a garden
until he was 13 years old, and I took into the garden, and kept a close
eye on hi, which I always have done.  He has never tried to climb the
fence.

You are really lucky that ALL of your
> neighbors love cats and have no objections to your guys wandering into their
> gardens to poop in their flower bed.

He comes in the house to use his litter tray, he doesn't even do his
business in his own garden!

Oh, you trained them to stay in your
> garden exclusively? Please enlighten me to your training method. Like I said
> much e