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Cat Set On Fire -- US Army sets Women and Children on Fire -- Who cares?

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\ - 21 Mar 2005 00:10 GMT
Cat Set On Fire, Tossed Off School Roof
Wilbur, Klohr Face Charges Of Animal Cruelty, Arson

POSTED: 8:50 am MST March 18, 2005
UPDATED: 10:09 am MST March 18, 2005

ARVADA, Colo. -- Two men have been arrested, accused of setting fire to a cat
and tossing it off the roof of Arvada West High School.

Police say 22-year-old Christopher Wilbur and 18-year-old Joshua Klohr set a
gray cat on fire and then tossed it off the school roof Wednesday night.
Officers spotted the two men on the roof of Arvada West High School just before
11 p.m.

By the time officers reached the cat, it was already dead, Arvada police
spokeswoman Susan Medina said.

Police still don't know who owned the cat, described as a neutered, short-haired
gray tabby with black stripes. The male cat was less than 3 years old.

Wilbur and Klohr have been released from jail pending the filing of formal
charges. They face charges including arson and cruelty to an animal.

Anyone with information about the crime, or the cat's owner, is being asked to
call Arvada police at (720) 898-6721.
soli13taire@juno.com - 21 Mar 2005 02:01 GMT
"- Prof. Jonez©" wrote:
> Cat Set On Fire, Tossed Off School Roof
> Wilbur, Klohr Face Charges Of Animal Cruelty, Arson
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Anyone with information about the crime, or the cat's owner, is being asked to
> call Arvada police at (720) 898-6721.
Doll is Mine - 21 Mar 2005 02:05 GMT
>  "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 49 lines]
>
>>call Arvada police at (720) 898-6721.

18 and 22? They seem a little old for such pranks.
nimue - 21 Mar 2005 03:59 GMT
>>  "- Prof. Jonez?" wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>
> 18 and 22? They seem a little old for such pranks.

That's not a prank.  There is nothing amusing about it.  I say those two
have made it pretty clear they do not belong in society and should be locked
up for the rest of their lives.

Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Alan Hope - 21 Mar 2005 22:31 GMT
nimue goes:

>I say those two
>have made it pretty clear they do not belong in society and should be locked
>up for the rest of their lives.

Setting fire to a cat is wrong -- very wrong.

It dries out the meat, which has very little fat marbling, and makes
the beast almost inedible. Braising is by far the better alternative
-- slow cooking in a small amount of liquid with aromatics added.

Or stewing in beer, something that works very well with rabbit, which
has a similar structure to the cat. A dark ale is delicious, and a
fruity cherry-beer from here in Belgium adds a whole new dimension.
I'd reckon one cat per two guests at a very minimum.

HTH

Signature

AH


nimue - 22 Mar 2005 02:19 GMT
> nimue goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> HTH

It didn't.  It's not funny.  Look -- if people kill animals to use as food,
that is one thing.  If people kill animals because they (the people) enjoy
brualizing and terrorizing a defenseless creature, that's something else.
Don't confuse the two.  Those two men are a real danger to society.

Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Alan Hope - 22 Mar 2005 18:18 GMT
nimue goes:

>> nimue goes:

>>> I say those two
>>> have made it pretty clear they do not belong in society and should
>>> be locked up for the rest of their lives.

>> Setting fire to a cat is wrong -- very wrong.

>> It dries out the meat, which has very little fat marbling, and makes
>> the beast almost inedible. Braising is by far the better alternative
>> -- slow cooking in a small amount of liquid with aromatics added.

>> Or stewing in beer, something that works very well with rabbit, which
>> has a similar structure to the cat. A dark ale is delicious, and a
>> fruity cherry-beer from here in Belgium adds a whole new dimension.
>> I'd reckon one cat per two guests at a very minimum.

>> HTH

>It didn't.  It's not funny.  Look -- if people kill animals to use as food,
>that is one thing.  If people kill animals because they (the people) enjoy
>brualizing and terrorizing a defenseless creature, that's something else.

Okay you've said it's something else, how about you go ahead and
demonstrate how it's something else.

In what way is slitting a pig's throat different from setting a cat on
fire? Build your argument on anatomy or neurology or ethics, whatever.
Show where the difference lies.

>Don't confuse the two.  Those two men are a real danger to society.

How so? Are deer-hunters a danger to society? What about men who shoot
rats? Can you sustain your position through all the possible
arguments? Or have you never really thought it through? Let's see.
Begin with the questions posed above.

Signature

AH


Mel - 22 Mar 2005 20:14 GMT
.

> In what way is slitting a pig's throat different from setting a cat on
> fire?

This isn't even an intelligent question.  Tell me, if you had a choice,
would YOU rather be set on fire or have your throat slit?  Have you ever had
a third degree burn? I would think that immolation would be far, far worse.
And to top it off, those useless excuses for human beings were not killing
the cat for food.  They did it out of sadism.  When people kill animals for
food, I would hope it is for that only.

I grew up on a farm, and chose vegetarianism some time ago.  I don't believe
that killing innocent beings when plant life is so plentiful is what God
would want us to work toward improving ourselves.IMHO.

MH
\ - 22 Mar 2005 21:59 GMT
> .
> >
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> This isn't even an intelligent question.  Tell me, if you had a
> choice, would YOU rather be set on fire or have your throat slit?

Well, ask Nick Berg's head and the remains of
US "contractors" BBQ'd in Fallujah which was a more
pleasant death ...

> Have you ever had a third degree burn? I would think that immolation
> would be far, far worse. And to top it off, those useless excuses for
> human beings were not killing the cat for food.

Does it make a difference to the cat?

> They did it out of sadism.  When people kill animals for food, I would hope it
> is for
> that only.

So it's not the killing you protest, it's the mental state of the killer that
has you upset. A thought crime as it were.

> I grew up on a farm, and chose vegetarianism some time ago.

Traitor.

> I don't believe that killing innocent beings when plant life is so plentiful
> is what God would want us to work toward improving ourselves.IMHO.

Yet you "Support the Troops" while they maim and kill 100,000+
innocent Iraqi men, women and children don't you, hypocritical lowlife?

> MH
Alan Hope - 23 Mar 2005 00:31 GMT
Mel goes:

>> In what way is slitting a pig's throat different from setting a cat on
>> fire?

>This isn't even an intelligent question.  

Explain.

>Tell me, if you had a choice,
>would YOU rather be set on fire or have your throat slit?  

My question wasn't "what's worse," you moron. My question was, "why is
one wrong and the other not?"

>Have you ever had
>a third degree burn?

No, have you?

>I would think that immolation would be far, far worse.

You would think, but do you have any information to offer?

>And to top it off, those useless excuses for human beings were not killing
>the cat for food.  They did it out of sadism.  When people kill animals for
>food, I would hope it is for that only.

How does that affect the rights and wrongs? It's absolutely not
necessary to kill an animal for food, so how is that a valid excuse?

>I grew up on a farm, and chose vegetarianism some time ago.  I don't believe
>that killing innocent beings when plant life is so plentiful is what God
>would want us to work toward improving ourselves.IMHO.

So how is slitting a pig's throat different from setting fire to a
cat? Do you have an answer?

Signature

AH


_ G O D _ - 23 Mar 2005 07:52 GMT
> .
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> killing innocent beings when plant life is so plentiful is what God would want us
> to work toward improving ourselves.IMHO.

There was a case about a month ago, when a person
was sentenced to 4 yrs. of slave labor in prison in the
US, which is a brazen violation of the Charter of Human
Rights, and exposing policy of blatant hypocrisy by the
government itself. So, apparently, what is good for the
goose is also good for the gander. Isn't it a known fact,
that all forms of slavery were abolished world-wide over
56 years ago?

But people are still killing and torturing not only all sorts
of animals for profit in the capacity of the entertainment
and a method of capitalization on slavery and genocide.
Of course last words were used to describe torture and
mutilation of defenseless humans by the mercenaries,
hired henchmen and slave-drivers...

Someone has to be real hypocrite to say that people
are doing this to animals, while being perfectly aware
about this also being done to people in clear violation
of the Human Rights. I haven't seen a document of the
same stature as the UDHR in defense of the animals'
rights, but nevertheless some people chose to go after
defenseless individuals for crimes of cruelty to animals,
while blatantly ignoring ongoing slavery and genocide
on industrialized basis and grand scale all over the world...

Why aren't we talking about "professional performance"
of sadistic torture and brutality, which is being exhibited
in grotesque killings of real bulls by toreadors in front of
hundreds of thousands of public audience at the stadiums
as often as we are talking about single cases of brutality
toward animals by obviously very sick individuals, whose
mind was effected by the mentioned above traditions (of
superstitious nature) of human beasts? Shouldn't we talk
more about public beheading of defenseless human beings
at the soccer fields between local and international games
at the stadiums of Saudi Arabia? Why don't we abolish a
hunting for "sport" defenseless creatures with latest (word
of the art) weaponry, to show that it isn't a hypocrisy, when
we are criticizing people for being cruel do domesticated
animals, instead?

So next time, when you decide to open your mouth to talk
about singled out incidents of cruelty by mentally disturbed
individuals, please mention first and foremost about cruelty
to defenseless creatures and hostages of the incarceration
industry, in the capacity of introduction to your blabbering...
Signature

_____________________________________________________

I intend to last long enough to put out of business all COck-suckers
and other beneficiaries of the institutionalized slavery and genocide.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The army that will defeat terrorism doesn't wear uniforms, or drive
Humvees, or calls in air-strikes. It doesn't have a high command, or
high security, or a high budget. The army that can defeat terrorism
does battle quietly, clearing minefields and vaccinating children. It
undermines military dictatorships and military lobbyists. It subverts
sweatshops and special interests.Where people feel powerless, it
helps them organize for change, and where people are powerful, it
reminds them of their responsibility."   ~~~~ Author Unknown ~~~~
___________________________________________________
--

nimue - 23 Mar 2005 02:53 GMT
> nimue goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> fire? Build your argument on anatomy or neurology or ethics, whatever.
> Show where the difference lies.

Well, when someone kills a pig for food, that pig dies for a purpose.  If I
dare say it -- he dies for life.  He is part of the cycle of life.  His
death will bring food and life to another.  It's natural.  It's sad -- but
it's Nature.  We have to eat to survive.  We do not, however, have to
torture animals for no reason to survive.  That is another impulse
entirely -- an impulse most people are without.  Everyone needs to eat --
very few people need to torture a defenseless creature for no reason other
than that they want to cause pain and suffering.

>> Don't confuse the two.  Those two men are a real danger to society.
>
> How so? Are deer-hunters a danger to society? What about men who shoot
> rats? Can you sustain your position through all the possible
> arguments? Or have you never really thought it through? Let's see.
> Begin with the questions posed above.

I have thought it through, many, many times.  Don't be so arrogant.  If the
men hunting deer are doing it for food -- FINE.  I have no problem with
that.  I do not know anyone who shoots rats -- small target.  However, since
rats are disease-carriers and present a danger to society, I have no problem
with the laying out of rat poison.  That said, I would never torture a rat
or a deer and would think someone who did was seriously disturbed.  Can you
honestly not see a difference between hunting deer for food and setting an
animal on fire and tossing it off a roof.  Do you think those actions have
the same source?  They don't.

Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Mel - 23 Mar 2005 03:12 GMT
Nimue: You said it so well!

I wrote this really long post to Mr. "Prove it" and then I got a "server
cannot be resolved" error (grrr) so I have to copy and paste it before I
send .
But this is really fantastic and makes most of what I was Trying to say
redundant.

I kept thinking "what do you mean "what is the difference?!! If you don't
know, you belong in jail with those sick little jerks!"  Because I have
experienced burns, and work a burn ward, believe me, that is not something I
would wish on anyone.

You have put this beautifully.  Thank you!

Mel  (who has a tendency to top-post)

> Well, when someone kills a pig for food, that pig dies for a purpose.  If
> I
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> animal on fire and tossing it off a roof.  Do you think those actions have
> the same source?  They don't.
Mel - 23 Mar 2005 03:24 GMT
For your information, I do NOT support ANY troops: I do not even live in the
US.  It is insane sending thousands of young people to imminent death to
shoot and bomb other people.  Thank you for accusing me of something that I
do not believe in.

As a firm vegetarian, I do not believe in killing ANYTHING.  I guess you
skimmed my post and absorbed only the parts you needed to draw your own
conclusions. Pathetic.

I think George Bush is a complete lunatic who authorizes the killing of
innocent people while trying to get at the guilty ones.

I do not support war in any form.

I am not a "hypocrytical lowlife" and it must be really wonderful for you to
sit at your computer wherever you are and judge someone you don't know.

I have had 3rd degree burns.  I work in the burn unit in one of our
hospitals.  It is a really upsetting place to work, and many people cannot
stomach it.  Have you ever had to deal with this? I doubt it.  So don't go
mouthing off about "traitors" and "upset about mental states".  I know very
well what kind of pain that poor cat went through.  There are people on the
burn unit I work in who plead to die because they are in so much pain.  Some
have NO SKIN, it has all burnt. You talk about the 'mental state' of the
killers and then call me a traitor because I am vegetarian?  Make up your
mind!  You should be glad I am vegetarian if you call the people who eat
meat killers! (I do, but then again, that is because I do not eat meat!)

Your selfish mouth-off shows just how little you know.  I prefer people kill
NO animals.  Being a vegetarian after being raised on a farm does not make
me a traitor.  I don't know where you get such a small-minded opinion.
After seeing animals slaughtered, that was enough to turn me off meat.  If
you read my statement on what I believe God wants, perhaps you might have a
little enlightenment

I don't even know who Nick Berg is, so without elucidation of your
statement, I cannot even begin to tell what you meant by that.

I think you should get together with Alan Hope and spend a few weeks on a
burn unit......find out what it's really like and just how bad it is.  The
smell is incredible.  I suggest you bring the Vicks along.  Most people
can't tolerate it.  Then perhaps you will stop with the smart-a.s comments
when you realize that severe burns leave one completely open, one raw open
nerve, extreme, excruciating pain.......imagine this during the burning,
this endless pain going on and on, and you are not dying.

Then perhaps you both will quit making light of it and trying to make it
sound like I am saying that there is some type of moralistic theme behind
"less-cruel" types of killing.  There is killing, and there is "torture and
killing".  If people are going to continue to eat meat, don't tell me that
you don't know the difference between a more humane method of killing, and a
"torture and kill"  I suggest you read the very recent post by Nimue.  It is
very enlightening.

Can we just agree now, no type of killing is right? Oh, wait, you're not
vegetarian are you? Because if you're not, this whole issue was the pot
(you) calling the kettle black.

> Mel wrote:
>> .
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
>> MH
wwwolf - 23 Mar 2005 03:35 GMT
Dear Prof, it is nice to see that the cat community has someone as caring
and considerate as you. As I have monitored this post, it is obvious that
the people you are arguing with have no concept of biology or biological
processes concerning pain.

From there accusations and name calling, it appears that there problem not
only occurs from ignorance but its also mental. Perhaps they are unhappy
with their situation in life and that anger and aggression has found an
outlet by sitting in front of their computers' and mouthing off to try to
get someone "stirred up" since misery loves company.

Their minds are closed and will remain so. There is little point in trying
to convince them that setting a living thing on fire is wrong.
You should pity them, not debate with them.

It makes no sense to feed the trolls.


Mel - 23 Mar 2005 03:30 GMT
>"Alan Hope" <not.alan.hope@mail.com> wrote in message news:1da141ph7amjsjep4d1ctkp4n2e2qvf57d@4ax.com...

>>> In what way is slitting a pig's throat different from setting a cat on
>>> fire?
> Explain.
I explained below, if you had bothered to consider and interpret the question.
>>This isn't even an intelligent question. Tell me, if you had a choice,
>>would YOU rather be set on fire or have your throat slit?  
>
> My question wasn't "what's worse," you moron. My question was, "why is
> one wrong and the other not?"
I hardly consider myself a moron, with an IQ of 129, but that is irrelevant.  They are both wrong.  You did not state "why is one wrong".  You asked "what is the difference."  The whole issue is in interpretation by the reader.>>Have you ever had
>>a third degree burn?
>
> No, have you?
Yes, I have.  Suffice to say that I got burned trying to pull my nephew from a fire.  I have some pretty ugly scars on both arms, and it was an extremely long and painful recovery, requiring plastic surgery and physiotherapy.
>>I would think that immolation would be far, far worse.
>
> You would think, but do you have any information to offer?



Duh. See above.

Until you have suffered the pain of third degree burns, no one is going to tell me that anything is worse.  I now work the burn unit in one of our hospitals.  Try to tell some of those patients that a quick slice across the throat and a bleedout would not be merciful to them.  If you haven't been there, you have no idea. I suggest you volunteer on the burn ward at a local hospital IF you have the stomach for it.  Most people run out puking because they can't stand the smell, but you never know.

>>And to top it off, those useless excuses for human beings were not killing
>>the cat for food.  They did it out of sadism.  When people kill animals for
>>food, I would hope it is for that only.
>
> How does that affect the rights and wrongs? It's absolutely not
> necessary to kill an animal for food, so how is that a valid excuse?

So what's your excuse?



>>I grew up on a farm, and chose vegetarianism some time ago.  I don't believe
>>that killing innocent beings when plant life is so plentiful is what God
>>would want us to work toward improving ourselves.IMHO.
>
> So how is slitting a pig's throat different from setting fire to a
> cat? Do you have an answer?

I already gave you the answer.  The least cruel method is what meat-eaters would aim for.  (Whether or not this is a valid excuse for killing or not.)

I cannot see my meat-eating friends setting a pig on fire and letting it run around screaming in pain for what could be hours until it died. How unreasonable, cruel and sadistic would that be! I do not condone throat-cutting either, but since I have been unable to talk everyone into a vegetarian lifestyle, a quick bleed-out is a helluva lot more compassionate than hours of pain and hell.

Or do you think that it is exactly the same?  I suggest that trip to the burn unit if you do.



If you don't know the difference, you really are one sick puppy.



Moralistically?  I don't think humans should kill any animals.  

I have used the argument repeatedly (and you obviously overlooked it purposely in my post) that God would not want us to aim for improvement by eating animals but aim toward eating plant and other material....

most people, even Christian, pathetically throw at me "they ate meat in the Bible" Yeasss, and men used to live in caves.  

If some want to continue the tradition of eating flesh (it's their ticket to hell, not mine), there is a more humane way to end the animals' life, yes. Moral? No. Humane? As much as possible.  If you torture them first, which can happen in some circumstances, and PETA has been fighting to shut these places down, that is neither moral NOR humane and is completely sadistic, right up there with burning and torturing animals for "fun". I know of no-one who would want to torture their livestock before killing it.  Nimue just posted something that says it excellently.  There is a major difference, read her post.  Her prose is far more eloquent and to the point, and will be much easier for you to understand.  I seem to be missing the point with you.



If you still can't understand the difference between torturing an animal to death and an immediate killing, I am afraid that you must be one of the ones that are beyond help and cannot see what is right.  You admitted to eating cats and rabbits, anyway, why should I have to explain myself to you?



I couldn't even kill something as small as an earthworm or spider!  And I'm trying to explain the difference between torture & kill and a straight kill to someone who kills animals?
nimue - 23 Mar 2005 04:01 GMT
> Nimue: You said it so well!

Thank you!

> I wrote this really long post to Mr. "Prove it" and then I got a
> "server cannot be resolved" error (grrr) so I have to copy and paste
> it before I send .
> But this is really fantastic and makes most of what I was Trying to
> say redundant.

Thanks -- but you should post your thoughts as well.  I am sure you will
bring up important points I didn't mention.

> I kept thinking "what do you mean "what is the difference?!! If you
> don't know, you belong in jail with those sick little jerks!"
> Because I have experienced burns, and work a burn ward, believe me,
> that is not something I would wish on anyone.
>
> You have put this beautifully.  Thank you!

Thanks again!

> Mel  (who has a tendency to top-post)

Well, that's a whole lot better than, say, torturing an animal.

>> Well, when someone kills a pig for food, that pig dies for a
>> purpose.  If I
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>> "There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and
>> complete bitches." Dawn French

Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

none - 23 Mar 2005 16:13 GMT
> We do not, however, have to
> torture animals for no reason to survive.

Cats are the critter equivalent of serial killers -- it may be immoral
to torture them to death, but it's not like they don't ultimately
deserve it anyway.

> That is another impulse
> entirely -- an impulse most people are without.

But an impulse that comes naturally to most cats.

-Mike
Noon Cat Nick - 23 Mar 2005 17:56 GMT
> > We do not, however, have to
> > torture animals for no reason to survive.
>
> Cats are the critter equivalent of serial killers -- it may be immoral
> to torture them to death, but it's not like they don't ultimately
> deserve it anyway.

Oh, those mean old pussy cats. Guess it's either you or them, eh?
none - 24 Mar 2005 02:27 GMT
> Oh, those mean old pussy cats. Guess it's either you or them, eh?

Tell it to this little guy:
http://www.paws.org/about/emailnetwork/archive/wildagain/wild_2005_02_23.html

-Mike
Noon Cat Nick - 24 Mar 2005 04:59 GMT
> > Oh, those mean old pussy cats. Guess it's either you or them, eh?
>
> Tell it to this little guy:
> http://www.paws.org/about/emailnetwork/archive/wildagain/wild_2005_02_23.html

So what's your opinion of sharks, hawks, anacondas and other predatory
animals? Or is it only cats who merit your Jeffreh Dahmer Award?
Em - 24 Mar 2005 04:40 GMT
Okay, if you wish to place yourself on the plane with the rest of the mammal
life, fine.  Man is separated from other animals by one thing - - - the
ability to REASON.  We can consider our actions.

The cat does not sit there thinking and delighting in the pain it is causing
it's prey.  God made cats this way.  Who knows why?  They take no delight in
torture, they have no ability to reason what they are doing.  Man is the
only species with this ability.  So, if you want to compare yourself to say,
a rat (spiders, snakes, and rats are other animals who love to torment what
they eat, so don't just blame cats.) go right ahead.  I doubt that spider on
the windowsill is sucking the juice out of it's live prey because it gets a
thrill out of it.

If you think so, it is time to go back to school.

>> We do not, however, have to
>> torture animals for no reason to survive.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> -Mike
Alan Hope - 23 Mar 2005 21:51 GMT
nimue goes:

>Can you
>honestly not see a difference between hunting deer for food and setting an
>animal on fire and tossing it off a roof.  Do you think those actions have
>the same source?  They don't.

They have precisely the same source: namely, Man's belief that he can
do what he likes to animals, because he has "dominion" over them.

Signature

AH


nimue - 23 Mar 2005 23:01 GMT
> nimue goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> They have precisely the same source: namely, Man's belief that he can
> do what he likes to animals, because he has "dominion" over them.

We need to eat to live, Alan.  We can make it brutal or not.  We evolved
eating meat and while I guess you can survive without it, I do not think
that is a healthy way to live.  Anyway, what you said is pretty silly.
There is a difference between someone torturing an animal for fun and
someone killing an animal for food.  If you want to pretend you can't see
the difference -- go ahead.  Most people can see the difference.
Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Alan Hope - 24 Mar 2005 00:28 GMT
nimue goes:

>> nimue goes:

>>> Can you
>>> honestly not see a difference between hunting deer for food and
>>> setting an animal on fire and tossing it off a roof.  Do you think
>>> those actions have the same source?  They don't.

>> They have precisely the same source: namely, Man's belief that he can
>> do what he likes to animals, because he has "dominion" over them.

>We need to eat to live, Alan.  We can make it brutal or not.  We evolved
>eating meat and while I guess you can survive without it, I do not think
>that is a healthy way to live.  Anyway, what you said is pretty silly.
>There is a difference between someone torturing an animal for fun and
>someone killing an animal for food.  If you want to pretend you can't see
>the difference -- go ahead.  Most people can see the difference.

You're quibbling. The similarities between the two acts are far
greater than the differences. And there's only one difference: if you
eat the creature afterwards, you can do what you like to it. See:
factory farming, lobster cookery etc.

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AH


pinnochiojones@hotmail.com - 25 Mar 2005 22:17 GMT
This makes sense.

> You're quibbling. The similarities between the two acts are far
> greater than the differences. And there's only one difference: if you
> eat the creature afterwards, you can do what you like to it. See:
> factory farming, lobster cookery etc.

However it contradicts your earlier recipes post.

> Setting fire to a cat is wrong -- very wrong.
> It dries out the meat, which has very little fat marbling,
> and makes the beast almost inedible. Braising is by far
> the better alternative -- slow cooking in a small amount
> of liquid with aromatics added.
> Or stewing in beer...

Why do you let commonsense elude you on this straightfoward topic?
Would you care to explain the difference?
Alan Hope - 26 Mar 2005 16:47 GMT
pinnochiojones@hotmail.com goes:

>This makes sense.

>> You're quibbling. The similarities between the two acts are far
>> greater than the differences. And there's only one difference: if you
>> eat the creature afterwards, you can do what you like to it. See:
>> factory farming, lobster cookery etc.

>However it contradicts your earlier recipes post.

>> Setting fire to a cat is wrong -- very wrong.
>> It dries out the meat, which has very little fat marbling,
>> and makes the beast almost inedible. Braising is by far
>> the better alternative -- slow cooking in a small amount
>> of liquid with aromatics added.
>> Or stewing in beer...

>Why do you let commonsense elude you on this straightfoward topic?
>Would you care to explain the difference?

You seem not to be aware of the concept of humour.

I'd explain but ... well that's the quickest way to kill the joke.

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AH


nimue - 26 Mar 2005 17:19 GMT
> pinnochiojones@hotmail.com goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> I'd explain but ... well that's the quickest way to kill the joke.

You're not funny.  That's why people don't find you funny.
Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Alan Hope - 27 Mar 2005 23:15 GMT
nimue goes:

>You're not funny.  That's why people don't find you funny.

That's just what someone who didn't get it would say.

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AH


nimue - 27 Mar 2005 23:32 GMT
> nimue goes:
>
>> You're not funny.  That's why people don't find you funny.
>
> That's just what someone who didn't get it would say.

I am pretty sure you feel most people don't get your humor or understand
you.  I am also pretty sure you attribute this to flaws in their personality
and intelligence.

Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Alan Hope - 28 Mar 2005 19:45 GMT
nimue goes:

>> nimue goes:

>>> You're not funny.  That's why people don't find you funny.

>> That's just what someone who didn't get it would say.

>I am pretty sure you feel most people don't get your humor or understand
>you.  

Not only that, it's actually a great relief.

>I am also pretty sure you attribute this to flaws in their personality
>and intelligence.

Naturally. Nobody has ever yet experienced a failure of their own
sense of humour. It's always the other guy's fault. Hence my comment,
which you quote.

You seem to think there's such a thing as "being funny" which you
either got or you haven't got. You also appear to exclude the
possibility that someone could be funny, but you don't get it. Thus,
your sense of humour is intact, it's the other guy that's all wrong.

You're not alone. We're all like that. You can criticise my driving,
my work, my wife, my golfing or anything you like, but don't ever say
I don't get a joke.

Signature

AH


nimue - 28 Mar 2005 23:57 GMT
> nimue goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Not only that, it's actually a great relief.

So this is something you have experience with.

>> I am also pretty sure you attribute this to flaws in their
>> personality and intelligence.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> possibility that someone could be funny, but you don't get it. Thus,
> your sense of humour is intact, it's the other guy that's all wrong.

I hate the 3 Stooges and don't think they are funny BUT I do recognize that
others think they are hilarious.  Different strokes.  Still -- no one
intended the Passion of the Christ to be funny and the fact that you think
it is is disturbing.

> You're not alone. We're all like that. You can criticise my driving,
> my work, my wife, my golfing or anything you like, but don't ever say
> I don't get a joke.

You may a get a joke.  I never said you didn't.  However, if you think the
Passion of the Christ is hilarious, you have a real problem.

Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

G W Shrub - 29 Mar 2005 01:34 GMT
> You may a get a joke.  I never said you didn't.  However, if you think the
> Passion of the Christ is hilarious, you have a real problem.

Not if you are watching the "South Park" version!

GW
Alan Hope - 29 Mar 2005 01:44 GMT
nimue goes:

>> nimue goes:
>>>> nimue goes:

>>>>> You're not funny.  That's why people don't find you funny.

>>>> That's just what someone who didn't get it would say.

>>> I am pretty sure you feel most people don't get your humor or
>>> understand you.

>> Not only that, it's actually a great relief.

>So this is something you have experience with.

If I thought the Great Unwashed Masses were going to get everything I
had to say -- and especially the Great American Masses -- then I'd
know it was time to raise my game or get out.

>>> I am also pretty sure you attribute this to flaws in their
>>> personality and intelligence.

>> Naturally. Nobody has ever yet experienced a failure of their own
>> sense of humour. It's always the other guy's fault. Hence my comment,
>> which you quote.

>> You seem to think there's such a thing as "being funny" which you
>> either got or you haven't got. You also appear to exclude the
>> possibility that someone could be funny, but you don't get it. Thus,
>> your sense of humour is intact, it's the other guy that's all wrong.

>I hate the 3 Stooges and don't think they are funny BUT I do recognize that
>others think they are hilarious.  Different strokes.  Still -- no one
>intended the Passion of the Christ to be funny and the fact that you think
>it is is disturbing.

That only speaks to your boundaries, and says nothing about me. So I
won't bother to address it.

>> You're not alone. We're all like that. You can criticise my driving,
>> my work, my wife, my golfing or anything you like, but don't ever say
>> I don't get a joke.

>You may a get a joke.  I never said you didn't.  However, if you think the
>Passion of the Christ is hilarious, you have a real problem.

You're saying that if you don't get the joke there is no joke. Don't
you see that?

Why is my amusement at TPOTC a symptom of illness? Because he died for
my f.cking sins? Do you really think you're making a case for *my*
being unhinged with that statement? Don't you think that position
really rather speaks to your own total lack of sanity?

Signature

AH


nimue - 29 Mar 2005 02:38 GMT
> nimue goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
> You're saying that if you don't get the joke there is no joke. Don't
> you see that?

I don't get the 3 Stooges but I know it's funny -- to others.  Many others.
So, no -- that is not what I am saying.  I am saying that I don't think PotC
is funny and I don't think anyone else does.  I don't think the 3 Stooges
are funny but I know they must be because many people find them hilarious.

> Why is my amusement at TPOTC a symptom of illness? Because he died for
> my f.cking sins?

No.  I already told you I am Jewish and do not believe he died for your
sins.  No, it's just a bloody, violent, ugly film (from the few clips I have
seen) -- nothing funny there.

>Do you really think you're making a case for *my*
> being unhinged with that statement? Don't you think that position
> really rather speaks to your own total lack of sanity?

If you are asking if my belief that there is something wrong with you for
your thinking that the bloody portrayal of revolting brutality is hilarious
is an indication of my total lack of sanity I would have to say no.

Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Alan Hope - 31 Mar 2005 00:42 GMT
nimue goes:

>> nimue goes:
>>>> nimue goes:
>>>>>> nimue goes:

>>>>>>> You're not funny.  That's why people don't find you funny.

>>>>>> That's just what someone who didn't get it would say.

>>>>> I am pretty sure you feel most people don't get your humor or
>>>>> understand you.

>>>> Not only that, it's actually a great relief.

>>> So this is something you have experience with.

>> If I thought the Great Unwashed Masses were going to get everything I
>> had to say -- and especially the Great American Masses -- then I'd
>> know it was time to raise my game or get out.

>>>>> I am also pretty sure you attribute this to flaws in their
>>>>> personality and intelligence.

>>>> Naturally. Nobody has ever yet experienced a failure of their own
>>>> sense of humour. It's always the other guy's fault. Hence my
>>>> comment, which you quote.

>>>> You seem to think there's such a thing as "being funny" which you
>>>> either got or you haven't got. You also appear to exclude the
>>>> possibility that someone could be funny, but you don't get it. Thus,
>>>> your sense of humour is intact, it's the other guy that's all wrong.

>>> I hate the 3 Stooges and don't think they are funny BUT I do
>>> recognize that others think they are hilarious.  Different strokes.
>>> Still -- no one intended the Passion of the Christ to be funny and
>>> the fact that you think it is is disturbing.

>> That only speaks to your boundaries, and says nothing about me. So I
>> won't bother to address it.

>>>> You're not alone. We're all like that. You can criticise my driving,
>>>> my work, my wife, my golfing or anything you like, but don't ever
>>>> say I don't get a joke.

>>> You may a get a joke.  I never said you didn't.  However, if you
>>> think the Passion of the Christ is hilarious, you have a real
>>> problem.

>> You're saying that if you don't get the joke there is no joke. Don't
>> you see that?

>I don't get the 3 Stooges but I know it's funny -- to others.  Many others.
>So, no -- that is not what I am saying.  I am saying that I don't think PotC
>is funny and I don't think anyone else does.  I don't think the 3 Stooges
>are funny but I know they must be because many people find them hilarious.

You're saying, as I suggested, that *you* get to decide what my sense
of humour should consist of. Who cares what you think of the Three
Stooges? Do they only become funny when enough people agree to laugh
at them? What is the threshold number? How many people does it take
before you reluctantly admit they're funny -- to some?

And since you don't find them funny, why would anyone care about your
point of view anyway? Are you saying that you have a voice in deciding
which among the things you don't find funny may nevertheless be
considered funny?

Are you reading your own posts at all closely?

>> Why is my amusement at TPOTC a symptom of illness? Because he died for
>> my f.cking sins?

>No.  I already told you I am Jewish and do not believe he died for your
>sins.  No, it's just a bloody, violent, ugly film (from the few clips I have
>seen) -- nothing funny there.

I don't know if you know this, but getting two fingers poked in your
eyes is no picnic. If Oliver Hardy had truly been subjected to all the
injuries we see in one Laurel and Hardy short, he'd be in the
hospital. Do you see what I'm driving at?

>>Do you really think you're making a case for *my*
>> being unhinged with that statement? Don't you think that position
>> really rather speaks to your own total lack of sanity?

>If you are asking if my belief that there is something wrong with you for
>your thinking that the bloody portrayal of revolting brutality is hilarious
>is an indication of my total lack of sanity I would have to say no.

It displays a total lack of perspective. It's a f.cking movie.

Signature

AH


Offshore Eddie - 31 Mar 2005 05:24 GMT
> If you are asking if my belief that there is something wrong with you for
> your thinking that the bloody portrayal of revolting brutality is hilarious
> is an indication of my total lack of sanity I would have to say no.

I saw a film in which 75 people were killed in the first five minutes, and it
was hilarious.

Not the killing, the movie.

Unintentionally.
G W Shrub - 28 Mar 2005 00:47 GMT
> nimue goes:
>
> >You're not funny.  That's why people don't find you funny.
>
> That's just what someone who didn't get it would say.

Perhaps he's German?

Signature

GW

Alan Hope - 28 Mar 2005 19:46 GMT
G W Shrub goes:

>> nimue goes:

>> >You're not funny.  That's why people don't find you funny.

>> That's just what someone who didn't get it would say.

>Perhaps he's German?

The Germans have comedy. They find things funny, but we don't.

Who's right?

Can you see some kind of parallel developing here?

Signature

AH


G W Shrub - 28 Mar 2005 21:08 GMT
> G W Shrub goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Can you see some kind of parallel developing here?

"Scientists have finally found the gene which is responsible for humor in
humans. Interestingly, they also found that Germans have a pseudo humor
gene. This means that Germans only think they are funny".

GW
nimue - 28 Mar 2005 23:57 GMT
> G W Shrub goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Can you see some kind of parallel developing here?

I have a very good friend who is German.  Her sense of humor is more dry
than the Sahara desert.  She didn't think Passion of the Christ was funny,
btw.

Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Alan Hope - 29 Mar 2005 01:46 GMT
nimue goes:

>> G W Shrub goes:
>>>> nimue goes:

>>>>> You're not funny.  That's why people don't find you funny.

>>>> That's just what someone who didn't get it would say.

>>> Perhaps he's German?

>> The Germans have comedy. They find things funny, but we don't.

>> Who's right?

>> Can you see some kind of parallel developing here?

>I have a very good friend who is German.  Her sense of humor is more dry
>than the Sahara desert.  She didn't think Passion of the Christ was funny,
>btw.

Oh well that's f.cking proof then. Anonymous person's unidentified
friend's unconfirmed opinion: trumps any argument under Usenet rules.

Guess I lose.

Signature

AH


nimue - 29 Mar 2005 02:39 GMT
> nimue goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> Guess I lose.

I didn't think it was proof.  I just thought I would say it.  You really
haven't presented any arguments -- just your opinion.

Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Alan Hope - 31 Mar 2005 00:36 GMT
nimue goes:

>> nimue goes:
>>>> G W Shrub goes:
>>>>>> nimue goes:

>>>>>>> You're not funny.  That's why people don't find you funny.

>>>>>> That's just what someone who didn't get it would say.

>>>>> Perhaps he's German?

>>>> The Germans have comedy. They find things funny, but we don't.

>>>> Who's right?

>>>> Can you see some kind of parallel developing here?

>>> I have a very good friend who is German.  Her sense of humor is more
>>> dry than the Sahara desert.  She didn't think Passion of the Christ
>>> was funny, btw.

>> Oh well that's f.cking proof then. Anonymous person's unidentified
>> friend's unconfirmed opinion: trumps any argument under Usenet rules.

>> Guess I lose.

>I didn't think it was proof.  I just thought I would say it.  You really
>haven't presented any arguments -- just your opinion.

But I haven't been presenting a case. You tried that in response to my
cat-cookery post. You want to show how I'm damaged, and sick, and
wounded, tried, tribulated, traumatised, and so on.

It's rather your responsibility to prove anything you're asserting on
that score. Are we agreed on that?

My entire argument has consisted of the following:

You're an a.s to try to argue any such thing in Usenet, on the basis
of Usenet posts.

That's such a truism it doesn't even require to be demonstrated.
However as luck would have it, you've sustained the thread with
further examples of you being an a.s.

So QED, it would seem.

Signature

AH


em - 31 Mar 2005 04:21 GMT
I beg to differ.  You jumped in and demanded (not verbatim) that I defend the statements in my post.  And of course, you kept drawing it out.  This was after your initial post about meat drying out.  

That is when others, including myself who was fairly new to newsgroups, began to get defensive.  I guess some of us truly ha no idea that there were idiots out there who had nothing better to do than troll for people's "hot spots".

I spend my volunteer time at the SPCA as well as several other non-profit organizations, when I am not working the burn ward.  I can't imagine that I would feel better about myself if I wasted all that time on my computer, trolling the newsgroups, baiting people and being nasty to them.  Doing something to help others makes me feel fantastic.  Perhaps it is something you should try.

> But I haven't been presenting a case. You tried that in response to my
> cat-cookery post. You want to show how I'm damaged, and sick, and
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> So QED, it would seem.
Alan Hope - 01 Apr 2005 15:30 GMT
em goes:

>I spend my volunteer time at the SPCA as well as several other non-profit organizations, when I am not working the burn ward.  I can't imagine that I would feel better about myself if I wasted all that time on my computer, trolling the newsgroups, baiting people and being nasty to them.  Doing something to help others makes me feel fantastic.  Perhaps it is something you should try.

I learned to type ages ago, darling, and the words flow from me like
honey from a bee.

It doesn't take nearly as much time as you seem to think. Still I
think it's great that you're making the effort, regardless of the
obstacles.

Signature

AH


Noon Cat Nick - 23 Mar 2005 08:09 GMT
> nimue goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> fire? Build your argument on anatomy or neurology or ethics, whatever.
> Show where the difference lies.

Ethics: If there is no reason to kill the animal other than to kill the
animal, to gain satisfaction and enjoyment from making it suffer and
die, therein is the difference. If the pig is slaughtered quickly and
efficiently for use as food, it is not an act of sheer sadism. If, OTOH,
the pig's throat is cut simply to amuse oneself by making the pig suffer
to death, and for no other reason, then it is an act of sheer sadism.
What ethical or survival role does setting a tame, innocent creature on
fire and burning it alive fulfill?
Alan Hope - 23 Mar 2005 21:55 GMT
Noon Cat Nick goes:

>> nimue goes:
>> >> nimue goes:

>> >>> I say those two
>> >>> have made it pretty clear they do not belong in society and should
>> >>> be locked up for the rest of their lives.

>> >> Setting fire to a cat is wrong -- very wrong.

>> >> It dries out the meat, which has very little fat marbling, and makes
>> >> the beast almost inedible. Braising is by far the better alternative
>> >> -- slow cooking in a small amount of liquid with aromatics added.

>> >> Or stewing in beer, something that works very well with rabbit, which
>> >> has a similar structure to the cat. A dark ale is delicious, and a
>> >> fruity cherry-beer from here in Belgium adds a whole new dimension.
>> >> I'd reckon one cat per two guests at a very minimum.

>> >> HTH

>> >It didn't.  It's not funny.  Look -- if people kill animals to use as food,
>> >that is one thing.  If people kill animals because they (the people) enjoy
>> >brualizing and terrorizing a defenseless creature, that's something else.
>> Okay you've said it's something else, how about you go ahead and
>> demonstrate how it's something else.

>> In what way is slitting a pig's throat different from setting a cat on
>> fire? Build your argument on anatomy or neurology or ethics, whatever.
>> Show where the difference lies.

>Ethics: If there is no reason to kill the animal other than to kill the
>animal, to gain satisfaction and enjoyment from making it suffer and
>die, therein is the difference.

That hinges on your definition of the word "reason". Is food for you a
good enough reason to kill a pig? Many people think not. The pig would
probably agree.

>If the pig is slaughtered quickly and
>efficiently for use as food, it is not an act of sheer sadism.

Perhaps not, although "quickly and efficiently' are troublesome terms,
if you've ever seen a pig slaughtered. Anyway, while it may not be an
act of sheer sadism, it could easily be seen as an act of needless
murder.

>If, OTOH,
>the pig's throat is cut simply to amuse oneself by making the pig suffer
>to death, and for no other reason, then it is an act of sheer sadism.
>What ethical or survival role does setting a tame, innocent creature on
>fire and burning it alive fulfill?

Killing a pig merely to eat its flesh is just as needless and
unjustifiable. There are other things to eat.

Signature

AH


nimue - 23 Mar 2005 23:10 GMT
> Noon Cat Nick goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> good enough reason to kill a pig? Many people think not. The pig would
> probably agree.

Yeah.  You know -- I'll bet he wouldn't like being set on fire and tossed
off a roof for no reason either.  C'mon, Alan.  You believe there is nothing
wrong with torturing a cat for no reason -- why is it now suddenly wrong to
kill a pig for food?

>> If the pig is slaughtered quickly and
>> efficiently for use as food, it is not an act of sheer sadism.
>
> Perhaps not, although "quickly and efficiently' are troublesome terms,
> if you've ever seen a pig slaughtered. Anyway, while it may not be an
> act of sheer sadism,

Like setting an animal on fire and throwing it off a roof?

>it could easily be seen as an act of needless
> murder.

So there is a difference?

>> If, OTOH,
>> the pig's throat is cut simply to amuse oneself by making the pig
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Killing a pig merely to eat its flesh is just as needless and
> unjustifiable. There are other things to eat.

Are you a vegetarian?  If you are, I assume you are because you think
killing animals for food is wrong.  If that is the case, why do you think
it's funny to torture an animal for no reason other to cause suffering,
pain, and death?  I think you are full of it, actually.  I think you just
want to piss people off and then ridicule them for being pissed off -- you
think that gives you some kind of power.  Wow!  I can make people angry and
then tell them they are pathetic for getting angry!  Whoo-hoo, Alan.  Pretty
pathetic.

 --
nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French
Alan Hope - 24 Mar 2005 00:29 GMT
nimue goes:

>C'mon, Alan.  You believe there is nothing
>wrong with torturing a cat for no reason -- why is it now suddenly wrong to
>kill a pig for food?

You will of course have no trouble pointing to where I said such a
thing.

Signature

AH


Mel - 24 Mar 2005 03:22 GMT
>>Alan Hope wrote:

>> Killing a pig merely to eat its flesh is just as needless and
>> unjustifiable. There are other things to eat.

This is a mighty strange argument, considering you are the one who initially
posted the recipe for, what was it, beer battered cat?  or was it rabbit?
At any rate, you spoke of how cooking meat too fast dried it out.  Yet, you
say it is unjustifiable to kill to eat meat.  But you do it.  End of
conversation.  Only a troll would have dragged this on far past it's due
date, so perhaps you can just move on to another news group now.

>nimue wrote
> Are you a vegetarian?  If you are, I assume you are because you think
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> "There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
> bitches." Dawn French
Noon Cat Nick - 24 Mar 2005 00:38 GMT
> Noon Cat Nick goes:
>
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> good enough reason to kill a pig? Many people think not. The pig would
> probably agree.

Then let's be in concord on the matter. What's your definition of the term?

> >If the pig is slaughtered quickly and
> >efficiently for use as food, it is not an act of sheer sadism.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> act of sheer sadism, it could easily be seen as an act of needless
> murder.

Again, define for me "quickly" and "efficiently" so we can understand
each other. Also explain what you believe is/are the difference(s)
between the verbs "to kill" and "to murder". I'd rather not agree to
disagree until I'm certain what the disagreement might be.

> >If, OTOH,
> >the pig's throat is cut simply to amuse oneself by making the pig suffer
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Killing a pig merely to eat its flesh is just as needless and
> unjustifiable. There are other things to eat.

True, but we don't eat animals for the mere thrill of knowing that they
were made to suffer and die in a deliberate excruciating manner. Just as
people don't deliberately torture animals to death just for an
entree--e.g., setting someone's companion animal on fire and tossing it
from the roof of a building while burning it alive. (Then again, maybe
they grew up in a cat-eating family and that's how they were raised to
cook supper. Who knows?)
Doll is Mine - 22 Mar 2005 00:05 GMT
>>> "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 56 lines]
> have made it pretty clear they do not belong in society and should be locked
> up for the rest of their lives.

I didn't at all mean I thought it was funny. I just meant that from time
to time you hear these stories about things done to cats by youngish
teenagers.
Noon Cat Nick - 21 Mar 2005 04:00 GMT
> >  "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
>
> 18 and 22? They seem a little old for such pranks.

Sadism knows no age limits.
Lesley Madigan - 22 Mar 2005 16:04 GMT
18 and 22? They seem a little old for such pranks.

> Sadism knows no age limits.

This reminds me of a story that appeared in the news over here about 2
years ago when some people went into a pet shop and purchased some
gerbils. They then went to a shop that sold fireworks, brought some
rockets and asked the assistant for some rubber bands.....

I am sure I do not need to spell out what they did.....

The main thing that seemed to make this crime newsworthy was that they
were not kids but in their 20's and 30's. The assistant said that if
they'd been kids, she wouldn't have given them the rubber bands
(ignoring the fact that if they had been kids she shouldn't have sold
them the rockets)so apparentl some people seem to accept that kids are
cruel to animals but it becomes shocking when a grown up does it.

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs
MaryL - 21 Mar 2005 08:56 GMT
>>  "- Prof. Jonez?" wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>
> 18 and 22? They seem a little old for such pranks.

That's not a prank.  It's deliberate, malicious cruelty and should be
treated as such.

MaryL
catherine yronwode - 21 Mar 2005 09:12 GMT
> >  "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> >>Klohr set a gray cat on fire and then tossed it off the school
> >> roof Wednesday night.

> 18 and 22? They seem a little old for such pranks.

It's not a prank. They are sociopaths. If not euthanized,
"rehabilitated" with heavy medication and continual therapeutic
monitoring, or confined to a prison for life, these two men will soon
torture and kill more pet animals and then, quite likely, they will move
on to smaller human beings such as children. Both Law Enforcement and
psychologists now understand and recognize that pet animal torture and
killing bears a direct relationship to serial murder and is often a
precursor or "try-out" for serial killing. It's time the public wised up
as well and stopped thinking of pet animal torture and killing as a
"prank."

Since this thread is cross-posted to groups i don't normally frequent,
and where i am not known,  i want to make it clear that i am not a
vegetarian and i do not view the humane slaughter of animals for food in
this class of behaviour. I am speaking specifically of the torture and
killing of pet animals such as domestic cats and dogs.  

cat yronwode
\ - 21 Mar 2005 19:01 GMT
> > >  "- Prof. Jonez?" wrote:
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> cat yronwode

"GEORGE W. BUSH BLEW UP FROGS"

MIDLAND, Texas ANIMAL PEOPLE, July/August 2000

An alert for American voters and humane educators everywhere appeared on May 21
in the 61st through 64th paragraphs of a 76-paragraph NEW YORK TIMES feature on
the childhood of Republican candidate for U.S. president George W. Bush -- if
anyone noticed.

?One of the local rituals for children,? reported Nicholas D. Kristof of Life in
Midland, Texas, when George W. was a boy, ?were meetings with cookies and milk
at the home of a nice old lady who represented the SPCA. The cookies were
digested more thoroughly than the teachings.?

?`We were terrible to animals,' recalled [Bush pal Terry] Throckmorton,
laughing. A dip behind the Bush borne turned into a small lake after a good
rain, and thousands of frogs would come out. `Everybody would get BB guns and
shoot them,' Throckmorton said. `Or we'd put firecrackers in the frogs and throw
them and blow them up.'?

Kristof made plain that ?we? explicitly included George W. Bush, and that George
W., the Safari Club International ?Governor of the Year? in 1999 for his support
of trophy hunting, was the leader among the boys who did it.

George W. Bush, 54, apparently learned hunting and alleged sportsmanship the
National Rifle Association way, from his father, former U.S. President George H.
Bush. NRA vice president Kayne Robinson boasted at a members-only meeting in
early 2000 that Bush, if elected, would be ?a president where we work out of
their office.?

That got some attention, along with the role of NRA executive vice-president
Wayne LaPierre in raising $250,000 at a recent Republican Party fundraiser
honoring Bush, and the Bush record as Texas governor of signing bills allowing
people to carry concealed handguns and take guns to church, and barring cities
from suing gun-makers.

Yet no one, not even Representative Tom Lantos (D-California), raised with
reference to Bush the character issue implicit in having recreationally shot and
blown up frogs -- or talked about the failure of humane education to dissuade
Bush from cruelty which must have been known by his famous father, as the
evidence would have been hard to conceal.

On May 25, however, Lantos and 20 other Representatives showed that they
should've recognized the character issue by introducing House Concurrent
Resolution 338. The Resolution, according to Lantos' press release, urges
?greater attention to identifying and treating individuals who are guilty of
violence against animals because of the link between abuse of animals and
violence against humans. In addition, it urges federal agencies to further
investigate the link between cruelty toward animals and violence against
humans.?

Offered Lantos, ?It is commonsense knowledge that any individual who harms
animals cruelly and deliberately is not otherwise well-adjusted. A man who
abuses the family dog or cat may turn that violence on his spouse or children.
Those children involved in school shootings weren't just `having fun' or `just
being boys' -- they were engaged in torturing and hurting animals. As a society,
we cannot overlook the fact that a person who hurts animals is committing an act
of violence and may eventually turn on human beings.?

But the only people George W. Bush is known to have had a part in killing were
the 135 convicts whose executions he has authorized during his five-and-a-half
years as Texas governor. Bush mocked the executed killer Karla Fae Tucker's plea
for her life in a falsetto, and reportedly giggled when asked by a journalist
how he could send the executed Gary Graham to die, when Graham's court-appointed
attorney was judicially admonished for sleeping through much of his trial.

DOPPELGANGER? If accused serial killer Robert Yates, 48, of Spokane, Washington,
had been caught and convicted in Texas, be might have been among those whose
killing by lethal injection Bush approved.

If Bush and Yates had been closer in age and geography, they might have been
friends, sharing their love of church, baseball, and -- especially -- using
their guns to kill small animals. Instead Yates grew up in Oak Harbor,
Washington. An April 26 investigative report on Yates' youth by Jessie Stensland
of the WHIDBEY NEWS-TIMES and SOUTH WHIDBEY RECORD buried mention of Yates'
hunting in the l7th paragraph of 21.

Like George W. Bush, Yates evidently graduated to trophy hunting. But instead of
blasting exotic species on Texas hunting ranches, be allegedly hunted young
suspected prostitutes. He allegedly terrorized them, robbed them, and shot at
least 18 of them at close range with a handgun. Yates shares his background as a
teenaged hunter not only with George W. Bush but also with at least 42 other
adults and 35 teens who have been charged with murder in recent years, whose
hunting backgrounds have surfaced -- albeit often just barely -- in news
coverage of their alleged crimes.

The WHIDBEY NEWS-TIMES and SOUTH WHIDBEY RECORD did not publish a letter by
ANIMAL PEOPLE editor Merritt Clifton citing the statistics; discussing the
traits that studies have found are often shared by hunters, serial killers, and
child abusers; and noting that early involvement in legal sport hunting -- not
just illegal animal torture -- also was in the reported backgrounds of convicted
school massacre perpetrators Luke Woodham, Andrew Golden, Mitchell Johnson, Kip
Kinkel, Michael Carneal, Barry Loukatis, and Evan Ramsey.

Press, public, and politicians who are just barely beginning to recognize the
link between illegal violence against animals and violence against humans remain
far from understanding the distinction between the inhibition about getting
caught that discourages illegality, and the inhibition about causing suffering
that George W. Bush's humane education teacher tried unsuccessfully to
encourage."

From: ANIMAL PEOPLE, July/August 2000, p. 18.
Amy - 28 Apr 2005 21:39 GMT
I only read the subject line, I can't go any further.  If it's as simple as
the subject line says, I'm already sickened.
I've always been a firm believer that if someone is capable of hurting any
innocent life form, human or not, that they have the soul of a sadistic
killer.

>> > >  "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote:
>> > >
[quoted text clipped - 132 lines]
>
> From: ANIMAL PEOPLE, July/August 2000, p. 18.
Doll is Mine - 22 Mar 2005 00:16 GMT
>>> "- Prof. Jonez©" wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
>
> cat yronwode

I honestly didn't mean to come across as if I felt it was funny, and
clearly "prank" was the wrong word to use. My point was that usually
this sh.t happens from younger teenagers who have since either realized
what the did was evil and have felt horribly guilty - or they decided
they liked hurting things weaker than themselves and have since
graduated to humans. I worked in an animal shelter for years, and we
often saw things that were done to cats. When anyone was around who knew
what happened it was usually 13-16 year old boys. That was truly my only
point and I am sorry I made a flip remark without thinking it thru. I
very much care about humane treatment of animals and have dedicated
hundreds of my personal hours and many, many weekends in volunteer
activities to care for unwanted or mistreated animals.
none - 02 Apr 2005 04:59 GMT
> 18 and 22? They seem a little old for such pranks.

I don't think it was a prank. Throwing a loved companion off a tall
building is a an obvious method of euthanization. Unfortunately, this
fellow was not terribly bright, and picked the tallest building he could
find. This was a problem because defenestration by skyscraper can never
be a humane way of euthanizing a cat.

Cats, unlike other animals, tend to relax as they fall, slowing their
terminal velocity to a gentle and typically survivable 60mph
(http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a5_190.html). In fact,
extermination has shown that 95% of cats that fall from buildings 9 to
32 stories in hight ultimately survive.
(http://ffden-2.phys.uaf.edu/211.web.stuff/Kuhns/terminal_velocity.htm)

The morality rate for pussies peaks around a mere 5.5 stories.
Unfortunately, our poor caretaker did not realize his mistake until
_after_ his lifetime friend had already been shoved off a roof. Faced
with a pained and wounded animal, he took the only reasonable step --
set the feline aflame, thereby exciting it, ensuring that its final
plunge would be fiery, but ultimately short and merciful.

Falling at 160mph (the terminal velocity for an excited cat -- see
previously cited article), the cat would have fallen the 32 stories in
less than 3 seconds; the animal was probably just starting to feel
uncomfortably toasty as its last meeeeeeeeeeeeeoooooooow came to an
abrupt end.

I think we can agree that if a 5.5-story building is not readily
available, setting a cat on fire and shoving it off the roof can be
reasonable and still mostly humane method of euthanization. It is
probably one of those ideas that sounds great in theory, but might be a
little hard to pull off in practice.

-Lirpa Loof
Lesley Madigan - 23 Mar 2005 15:05 GMT
> > Police still don't know who owned the cat,

I think this is the saddest bit that somewhere someone is waiting for
their kitty to come home

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs
nimue - 23 Mar 2005 22:54 GMT
>>> Police still don't know who owned the cat,
>
> I think this is the saddest bit that somewhere someone is waiting for
> their kitty to come home

I know.  That always makes me sad, too.  For all we know, that cat was
someone's only companion.  I am sure the sadists who committed this crime
thought of that -- and got sick pleasure from it.

> Lesley
>
> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs

Signature

nimue

"If I had created  reality television I would have had a much greater
influence, but then I would have had to KILL MYSELF." Joss Whedon

"There are two types of women -- those who like chocolate and complete
bitches." Dawn French

Mel - 24 Mar 2005 03:17 GMT
Nimue: I don't know if you are aware - - - I only noticed this in one of my
final posts.....in posting, my newsgroups header picked up that of one of
the .....ummm..... people ??? ...... I responded to....... and therefore
your responses are cross-posting to 3 newsgroups instead of just this one.

I only mention it because of Diane's post, and I thought if this was
unintentional, you might want to delete them from your postings.  It
apparently is a tradition of trolls, as those groups have nothing to do with
the initial topic.

I hope I helped!

:)

Mel
>>>> Police still don't know who owned the cat,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>>
>> Slave of the Fabulous Furballs
_ G O D _ - 26 Mar 2005 04:53 GMT
>>>> Police still don't know who owned the cat,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> who committed this crime thought of that --
> and got sick pleasure from it.

Quite possibly, the person who set his can in fire, has
mental disorder of some kind, to explain his atrocities
toward one's own "only companion." Because by now
cat's owner would have announced himself, if he was
not this guy, and indeed looking for his cat...

Signature

_____________________________________________________

I intend to last long enough to put out of business all COck-suckers
and other beneficiaries of the institutionalized slavery and genocide.

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