Cat Forum / General Topics / January 2005
Is Outdoors OK?
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playtruly@gmail.com - 06 Jan 2005 22:38 GMT Hi folks - I have a dilemma about which I am trying my best to have a positive attitude. I could really use some input from people who love and care for cats. We have recently moved to a new neighborhood in Seattle with our cat Zsu-Zsu (and our dog, but that's another story.) Zsu-Zsu is approximately 10 1/2 years old. My husband and I have taken care of her for 8 1/2 of those years; 7 years of that time has been in urban Seattle areas. She's very much a city cat - extremely social, smart, aware of her surroundings, conscious of street dangers, etc.
Zsu-Zsu came to us when we were first living in the city. She lived in our apartment complex with another guy, and would visit often. We would let her come inside from time to time and she would hang out for a bit, and then go back out. The previous owner had to leave Seattle and asked if we would take her; so we did. Since that time, we have come to adore and respect this kitty beyond belief; she is one of our babies and we would do most anything to keep her safe and happy.
Part of that approach has always been to allow her the freedom that she was used to with her previous owner, a clearly defined part of her personality. She is very independent; an indoor/outdoor girl who has always known where she can come for food and lovin', and this has always worked just fine for us and (as far as we can tell) for her.
Here's the problem: we have recently moved to a new neighborhood in the city, and since the move (Sept '04), we have received perhaps 8 phone calls from various neighbors asking whether she is ours and whether she's OK to be outside (in varying tones of voice). It is now getting to be winter time (Zsu-Zsu has always asked to go out virtually as often during the winter as in the summer) and the phone calls have increased exponentially in the last few weeks.
Last night I received a very disturbing phone call from an unidentified neighbor woman who passive-aggressively condescended and threatened to "turn the cat in to the authorities" if she sees her outside in the "freezing cold" evenings again (around 35-40 degrees fahrenheit). Needless to say, I was very upset by this. Who is she to judge our care-taking without even knowing us or our cat? In addition, she did not leave her name or her phone number, leaving me to feel very powerless over whether some random neighbor might call Animal Control and try to take Zsu-Zsu! Wow. I was truly livid.
Today, I am trying not to unneccessarily doubt myself, but at the same time I have kept Zsu-Zsu inside all day today (which I'm sure she's pretty ticked off about) in order to think this through thoroughly. I need advice about whether it's reasonable to continue to allow Zsu-Zsu to go outside at the risk of being "taken in" by some "well-meaning" neighbor, or potentially cat-snatched by the Pound. Despite my anger toward this neighbor-woman, I truly want to do what's best for my kitty, and I think I need some rational and knowledgeable perspective in order to make a decision.
I appreciate any input you might have. All the best and Happy New Year. --Heather
J~ - 06 Jan 2005 23:08 GMT I personally allow my cats out during the day and when they like, rain or shine. I only feed them at night so they have to come in at night time to feed and at that time they can have all the food they want till I leave for work. I am of opinion, cats have a nice fur coat and if it is to cold for them they will want to come back in the house.
I might get a collar with your name and number on it in case the pound is contacted. I am not sure what the pound would do but you might just call and ask them what they do in this situaion.
J~
> Hi folks - I have a dilemma about which I am trying my best to have a > positive attitude. I could really use some input from people who love [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > I appreciate any input you might have. All the best and Happy New > Year. --Heather Amur_ - 07 Jan 2005 00:26 GMT > Last night I received a very disturbing phone call from an unidentified > neighbor woman who passive-aggressively condescended and threatened to > "turn the cat in to the authorities" if she sees her outside in the > "freezing cold" evenings again (around 35-40 degrees fahrenheit). I don't suppose that you attempted to point out to her that cat's have fur coats? ;-D
> Needless to say, I was very upset by this. Who is she to judge our > care-taking without even knowing us or our cat? I can fault her for her lack of discretion, but I can't fault her for her concern for the cat (misguided or not.)
> Today, I am trying not to unneccessarily doubt myself, but at the same > time I have kept Zsu-Zsu inside all day today (which I'm sure she's > pretty ticked off about) in order to think this through thoroughly. I > need advice about whether it's reasonable to continue to allow Zsu-Zsu > to go outside at the risk of being "taken in" by some "well-meaning" > neighbor, or potentially cat-snatched by the Pound. I found this, which might have some helpful ideas for you: http://groups.google.ca/groups?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&th=d972805df08679cc&seekm=33CF 15AB.7F0D%40slip.net&frame=off
It has one interesting idea: building fencing to keep Zsu-Zsu within your own yard. This isn't the best time of year to take that up, but perhaps in the spring. Regardless, getting into a spat with a neighbour ought to be at the bottom of your list of priorities - I don't recall of ever hearing of one ending well for either party. I don't know what else to tell you, except that if you do choose to take a stand, keep a detailed log of all contact with the neighbour, and tread carefully.
Here's hoping nothing comes of it all. ^_^
ttyl, Amur_
agent smith - 07 Jan 2005 00:39 GMT no, domesticated animals have no place outside. right now in texas, were about to have freezin weather again. a few of my neighbors let their kats out. ive made it known that if i see animals that are outside during freezing weather, i will take them in and i will take them to the pound.
-agent smith
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Dave - 07 Jan 2005 02:39 GMT >no, domesticated animals have no place outside. right now in texas, were >about to have freezin weather again. a few of my neighbors let their kats >out. ive made it known that if i see animals that are outside during >freezing weather, i will take them in and i will take them to the pound. I live in Calgary, where we get down to -20 to -30 on and off (Although not usually for any sustained period of time) and I see plenty of cats that manage just fine outdoors.
I have friends that have pet doors on their houses and their cats can come and go as they please and they stay outside, sometimes days at a time even though they have a warm place available any time they want.
Personally, I keep my cats inside -- They get annoyed at me if the temperature drops more then 4-5 degrees, but cats can easily adapt to a much wider range of temperatures.
agent smith - 07 Jan 2005 07:12 GMT here in texas, its a crime to have an animal outdoors without proper shelter and food/water. since the kats are left to wander, with no food or shelter, i know i can have charges brought up against the irresponsible owners in my complex.
-agent smith
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Ashley - 07 Jan 2005 07:27 GMT > here in texas, its a crime to have an animal outdoors without proper > shelter and food/water. since the kats are left to wander, with no food or > shelter, i know i can have charges brought up against the irresponsible > owners in my complex. An animal with access to a cat door is not "Outdoors without proper shelter and food/water".
agent smith - 07 Jan 2005 07:52 GMT if only you knew how big of a fool you look... all of the idiots here who let their kats wander outside also dont fix them, they dont have the means to purchase a kat door for an apt, and theyre irresponsible. IE, theyre minorities. here in texas, most minorities dont know how to properly care for animals. so, basically, youre defending all these minorities here who throw pets out when they get sick. youre defending their right to treat an animal inhumanely. good job beavis, darwin is in your future...
-agent smith
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Ashley - 07 Jan 2005 09:00 GMT > if only you knew how big of a fool you look... I do not look a fool at all as, I was merely pointing out to you your wild leaps in logic. And there you go making them again.
all of the idiots here who
> let their kats wander outside also dont fix them, they dont have the means > to purchase a kat door for an apt, and theyre irresponsible. IE, theyre [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -agent smith agent smith - 07 Jan 2005 18:44 GMT >> if only you knew how big of a fool you look... > > I do not look a fool at all actually, since you dont live in my city, you do. sorry, i know the truth hurts, but its better if you accept it and move on with your feeble life.
-agent smith
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Victor Martinez - 07 Jan 2005 15:19 GMT > to purchase a kat door for an apt, and theyre irresponsible. IE, theyre > minorities. here in texas, most minorities dont know how to properly care > for animals. so, basically, youre defending all these minorities here who Excuse me? You're confusing race with socioeconomics. I know plenty of white trash who don't care for their animals property.
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agent smith - 07 Jan 2005 18:45 GMT >> to purchase a kat door for an apt, and theyre irresponsible. IE, theyre >> minorities. here in texas, most minorities dont know how to properly care >> for animals. so, basically, youre defending all these minorities here who > > Excuse me? wow, you make one comment about minorities, then all the ones that still are allowed in the public library start posting. isnt that cute *s*
-agent smith
/truth must hurt something awful :)
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jacquie0 - 07 Jan 2005 18:50 GMT >>>to purchase a kat door for an apt, and theyre irresponsible. IE, theyre >>>minorities. here in texas, most minorities dont know how to properly care [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > /truth must hurt something awful :) Oh please Agent Smith......I can't handle the suspense any more. Tell me, you are really a cat god aren't you. (You wish). Where do you get off telling people how to raise their cats? Just because in your corner of the world there are people who don't look after their pets, doesn't mean that everyone is the same. You must have a lot of hate and anger inside of you to always be talking people down about the way they treat their cats. Get a life. It must be nice to have nothing better to do with your life. I wish I had that much time on my hands. (NOT).
agent smith - 07 Jan 2005 18:54 GMT >> /truth must hurt something awful :) >> > Oh please Agent Smith *ba dum ching*
another minority bites the dust...
-agent smith
/truth must really hurt now *laughs with sardonic glee*
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Nan - 07 Jan 2005 21:49 GMT >>> /truth must hurt something awful :) >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >/truth must really hurt now *laughs with sardonic glee* Plonk, another minority bites the dust........
Nan
jacquie0 - 08 Jan 2005 04:53 GMT >>>/truth must hurt something awful :) >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > /truth must really hurt now *laughs with sardonic glee* Smith......Who do consider to be a minority?
Victor Martinez - 07 Jan 2005 21:43 GMT > wow, you make one comment about minorities, then all the ones that still are > allowed in the public library start posting. isnt that cute *s* Well, this *minority* doesn't go to public libraries and probably makes a whole lot more money than you do. How do you like that?
- Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM) Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com
agent smith - 07 Jan 2005 22:15 GMT *giggles*
i didnt know minorities could dream when theyre awake...
-agent smith
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Alun - 10 Jan 2005 23:20 GMT > here in texas, its a crime to have an animal outdoors without proper > shelter and food/water. since the kats are left to wander, with no food > or shelter, i know i can have charges brought up against the > irresponsible owners in my complex. > > -agent smith I wonder what the code there actually says? Obviously, the cats in question do have access to food and shelter, so it seems you would be filing a frivolous complaint.
Victor Martinez - 07 Jan 2005 15:19 GMT > neighbor, or potentially cat-snatched by the Pound. Despite my anger > toward this neighbor-woman, I truly want to do what's best for my > kitty, and I think I need some rational and knowledgeable perspective > in order to make a decision. Indoor-only cats live longer and healthier lives. That is an irrefutable fact, aside from some anecdotal evidences of outdoor cats that live to be really old. The argument that people have is about quality of life. Indoor-only cats can be just as happy as their outdoor counterparts provided you give them enough stimulation. We have 7 indoor-only cats, who are the happiest, healthiest, most loving bunch you've ever met. Our oldest cat, Xoxo, lived his first few years as an outdoor-only cat. When we moved to our house and decided to adopt him full time, he became indoor-only. We were concerned about him and whether he'd adjust to living indoors, but boy, did he show us! He *loves* the indoors. He is not even curious about going outside. He seems to think, been there, done that, it's cold and wet and hot outside, I like it inside better.
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Zythophile - 18 Jan 2005 21:39 GMT >> neighbor, or potentially cat-snatched by the Pound. Despite my anger >> toward this neighbor-woman, I truly want to do what's best for my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > fact, aside from some anecdotal evidences of outdoor cats that live to be > really old. It's not an irrefutable fact. Over here, where we don't have large predators and cats having free access to the outdoors in the daytime is the norm, cats regularly live into their late teens and 20+ is not unheard of. I'd say 18 is the average lifespan of a British outdoor moggie. I appreciate it is different if your natural fauna includes alligators and the like. However, the old tradition of turning cats out at night is dangerous and cruel. It is at night time when they are most likely to get run over, get stolen or come off worst in an argument with a fox.
 Signature Z www.makepovertyhistory.org
Margaret S. - 18 Jan 2005 22:34 GMT /snip/
> > Indoor-only cats live longer and healthier lives. That is an irrefutable fact, aside from some anecdotal evidences of outdoor cats that live to be really old.
I'd like to see a good study telling just what the difference if any is, and what sort of sampling they did. All I've seen is non-cited factoids that give a quite low figure for the difference.
> It's not an irrefutable fact. Is there such a thing? :)
> Over here, where we don't have large predators I'd like to see some solid figures about large predators and pet cats, too, in the few areas where they may coincide. Areas that have bears and cougars tend not to have many humans to keep cats. Doubtless because the bears eat all the humans.
> and cats having free access to the outdoors in the daytime is the norm, cats regularly live into their late teens and 20+ is not unheard of. I'd say 18 is the average lifespan of a British outdoor moggie. I appreciate it is different if your natural fauna includes alligators and the like. However, the old tradition of turning cats out at night is dangerous and cruel. It is at night time when they are most likely to get run over, get stolen or come off worst in an argument with a fox.
Are foxes much of a danger to your cats?
Margaret S. Who thinks the average human has one ovary and one testicle, and everyone should ask their own vet and near neighbors about local conditions, instead of looking at national averages. :)
BC - 19 Jan 2005 11:49 GMT > /snip/ > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Are foxes much of a danger to your cats? They are rumoured to be, but I have never actually known a cat or read about a cat being killed by one. Where I used to live I saw foxes every week when walking my dog, even had them in our back garden but neither ours nor our neighbours cats ever came to any harm and they were all frequently out til the early hours.
> Margaret S. > Who thinks the average human has one ovary and one testicle, and everyone > should ask their own vet and near neighbors about local conditions, instead > of looking at national averages. :)
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Zythophile - 19 Jan 2005 20:15 GMT <snip>
>>. However, the old tradition of turning cats out at night is dangerous and >>cruel. It is at night time when they are most likely to get run over, get [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ours nor our neighbours cats ever came to any harm and they were all > frequently out til the early hours. To be honest, I've never heard of a cat being attacked by a fox. The Cats' Protection League quote as one of the reasons to keep cats inside at night. My gut feeling is that cats (like chickens, lambs etc) would be more at risk from stray dogs. But that's nothing more than gut feeling, I have no evidence to back it.
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Troy - 20 Jan 2005 12:58 GMT > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Z > www.makepovertyhistory.org When I was living in London we used to have foxes wandering around at night. I remember once looking out into the back garden at a very early hour to see a fox sitting on top of our wooden fence surveying the area...about 2 feet to its left was one of my cats doing the same thing. They hardly seem to acknowledge each other.
...of course this is just one case but I was quite bemused by it when I saw it.
Troy.
Ivor Jones - 19 Jan 2005 16:07 GMT >>> neighbor, or potentially cat-snatched by the Pound. Despite my anger >>> toward this neighbor-woman, I truly want to do what's best for my [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > likely to get run over, get stolen or come off worst in an argument with > a fox. Indeed. The oldest cat recently known of here in the UK is Whiskey, who was 33 last year, according to the newspaper article I saw at the time. He was found dumped in a bin in 1971 and the woman who found him still has him..! I don't know if he's still alive, but having survived three house moves and outlived another cat and two dogs, I think he very probably might be :-) I hope so, as Britain's oldest recorded cat died at 34 back in 1957 so if he makes it he'll definitely get a place in the Guiness Book of Records :-)
BTW I personally know of at least three cats who have lived to 17 and 18 while having full access to the outside. Two of them were mine.
Ivor
DL Farnworth - 07 Jan 2005 17:10 GMT <playtruly@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1105051224.810248.294410@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups. com... ... I
| need advice about whether it's reasonable to continue to allow Zsu-Zsu | to go outside ... --Heather
A lot depends on the breed. The cats from Northern England, for instance, seem particularly well suited to the cold. There is a breed descended from cats abandoned by whalers on a near-Antarctic island that do well. The Norwegian Forest cats do well in cold. Our own Siamese mix has incredibly dense fur and minds the cold very little here in Eastern Washington where it's currently 19F outside. (She's also a little chubby but that only helps, we think.) (She just came in. Her outer fur is cold but her belly is warm. Now she will stretch out on the filing cabinet to give Baby the hairy eyeball. Now the HE swings toward the door, where Sally, wakened from her after-breakfast snooze under the bed, surveys her chances of a lap to curl up on.)
On the other hand, cats with thin fur can't handle cold. The ragdoll across the street was kicked out of his house by his owners last year and nearly died in that winter's heavy snows and extreme cold. His fur was adapted to central heating. After a year outside he is in much better shape. The Hairless cats apparently have a hard time outside under any circumstances.
I can't think that 35-40F is very dangerous. Smokey, a feral, lived outside all year round except for brief periods in the winter when he came into the laundry room. He did very well. He preferred the outside, in fact, and liked to eat next to the sliding door, exposed to the weather, rather than down on the covered porch where we kept trying to entice him.
The rabbits live outdoors most of the year. They begin to droop when the temperature drops below 20F for more than a week, I think primarily because they can't drink their frozen water.
Cats can get frostbite, though. Our Scottish Fold has a frostbitten ear and eyelid from having been left out by her previous people. Now those areas are sensitive to cold and sun.
There are other dangers besides cold. Skunks and raccoons, for instance. Also coyotes, hawks and owls. People sometimes. Cars. Most cats avoid them pretty well. Some don't, just like humans.
What to do about the neighbor, I don't know. Cats will wander, whether indoors or out. You can chip them, though. The pound people are supposed to check for microchips before consigning the cats to oblivion. I don't know if that works.
By the way, in the US, you can dial *69 (for a fee) and get the number of the last phone that called you, a fact previously unknown to our last obscene phone caller .
BC - 08 Jan 2005 13:16 GMT > Hi folks - I have a dilemma about which I am trying my best to have a > positive attitude. I could really use some input from people who love [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > I appreciate any input you might have. All the best and Happy New > Year. --Heather Things are totally different here in England so I do not have any ideas of laws where you are, but I would suggest you contact Animal control and tell them all about the situation and ask their advice. Make sure she is always wearing a form of identification microchip and collar. Unfortunately I think it would be safer for her to be kept inside for a bit, and maybe you should consider moving as I am not sure it will ever be safe for you to let her out where you live now and if she is used to going out you will have a very unhappy cat if kept in. These people are misguided but are worried about your cat. How you can explain to them that this is not too cold I have no idea, send her out in a coat perhaps!!! ;-) If you do let her out try and make sure she is back in safe and sound in the evening to avoid the coldest weather, I am presuming that she is of a good weight and in good condition so as not to be worrying neighbours in this way? Are there any other outdoor cats in the area?
 Signature Badger Badger Badger
equalizer - 09 Jan 2005 19:20 GMT >Hi folks - I have a dilemma about which I am trying my best to have a >positive attitude. I could really use some input from people who love [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >urban Seattle areas. She's very much a city cat - extremely social, >smart, aware of her surroundings, conscious of street dangers, etc. On 6 Jan 2005 14:40:24 -0800, in alt.pets.cats you wrote:
>Hi folks - I have a dilemma about which I am trying my best to have a >positive attitude. I could really use some input from people who love [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >urban Seattle areas. She's very much a city cat - extremely social, >smart, aware of her surroundings, conscious of street dangers, etc. <SNIP>
I'm not sure how "in the city" you are, and if an enclosure is even a possibility in your situation. However, this is the setup I have for my cats. The website of the company is http://www.purrfectfence.com/.
http://web.newsguy.com/equalizer/gate_1.jpg http://web.newsguy.com/equalizer/enclosure_1.jpg http://web.newsguy.com/equalizer/enclosure_2.jpg http://web.newsguy.com/equalizer/enclosure_3.jpg http://web.newsguy.com/equalizer/enclosure_4.jpg http://web.newsguy.com/equalizer/enclosure_5.jpg http://web.newsguy.com/equalizer/enclosure_6.jpg http://web.newsguy.com/equalizer/visitor_1.jpg http://web.newsguy.com/equalizer/visitor_2.jpg
Victor Martinez - 09 Jan 2005 19:46 GMT > possibility in your situation. However, this is the setup I have for my > cats. The website of the company is http://www.purrfectfence.com/. Very cool! We want something like that. We currently have an enclosure, 12' X 8' that we built as soon as we moved into our house. The cats like going out there when the weather is nice, but it's not very practical for us to be in there with them. We've been thinking of running an elevated tunner from their current enclosure to a new enclosed structure we're planning on building in the middle of the garden. This might do the trick!
 Signature Victor M. Martinez Owned and operated by the Fantastic Seven (TM) Send your spam here: uce@ftc.gov Email me here: pistorLITTER@BOXaustin.rr.com
Margaret - 15 Jan 2005 11:01 GMT > Hi folks - I have a dilemma about which I am trying my best to have a > positive attitude. I could really use some input from people who love [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > I appreciate any input you might have. All the best and Happy New > Year. --Heather I suppose the key is, what would the Pound (or other shelter) do if it happened.
First I guess I'd check the law, the Animal Control Ordinance. Make sure she's got shots and license up to date and meets all legal requirements. Of course use a microchip ID. (Avid has a sort of 'registry' where you register as the owner and they will not accept any change of ownership without your signature.) Make contact with a respected vet (or all the vets :) in the new neighborhood so he can reassure people he knows that she is healthy, you are responsible, etc.
Could you 'pre-emptively' meet the Animal Control people, make friends with them, introduce her to them? Maybe you could go there and ask them for a copy of the ordinance, tell them you want to make sure you're complying with all details. Maybe you could volunteer a little time at the local shelter, if there is one. When these Pound and shelter people know you, they will be less likely to take seriously any crank calls. Maybe they would even phone you if someone tried to bring her in.
Can you make friends with most of the neighbors, tell them her story? What about having a cat door for her so you can show them she can come in any time she wants to? What about inviting some of them to visit when she's in, so they can see how much she wants to go out? If she becomes sort of 'famous' in the neighborhood, maybe no one would dare take her.
Some poster mentioned moving again. Is that possible? Could you check out the new neighborhood to make sure it wouldn't happen there too?
Margaret
Margaret - 16 Jan 2005 03:10 GMT Couple more thoughts here.
If the Pound or someone tried to catch her, would they use a trap? You might on some pretext borrow one of those traps yourself and sort of 'vaccinate' her against ever going in such a trap. :)
/snip/
> > Here's the problem: we have recently moved to a new neighborhood in the > > city, and since the move (Sept '04), we have received perhaps 8 phone [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > often during the winter as in the summer) and the phone calls have > > increased exponentially in the last few weeks. I suppose all these people are getting your phone number off her collar? What about adding a url for a really cute website about her, a positive 'this is our cute kitty and her interesting history' sort of thing. With pictures of her being held by beaming local veterinarians etc etc. And pictures of her cat door showing she can come in whenever she likes. And nice letters from your old friends and old vets. You get the idea? Present such a positive picture that people would feel silly to disagree.
With luck you might even get her some local news media time -- pre-emptive public relations. :)
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Margaret ------------
> > Last night I received a very disturbing phone call from an unidentified > > neighbor woman who passive-aggressively condescended and threatened to [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > Some poster mentioned moving again. Is that possible? Could you check out > the new neighborhood to make sure it wouldn't happen there too?
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