 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsGeneral TopicsCat AnecdotesHealth and BehaviorRescue CatKB.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Cat Forum / General Topics / January 2008Leaving a cat alone for 24 hours, first time
As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1 year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came inside to sleep. Then she met her first Midwestern winter and didn't know what hit her. But she has adjusted, sort of, goes out many times each day and returns in 1/2 hr to 2 hrs depending on the weather and her mood. Now we are facing a sudden development I need your expert advice with. We must leave her alone for something like 24-30 hours. I realize that this is no big deal for many cats but this one is simply not used to being locked in for so long. The maximum she has been locked in alone is like 5-6 hours, so this will be a big jump. We'll of course feed her just before leaving, leave some of her favorite canned food for a little later and kibble for after that, fresh water and fresh litter (I know this will be a torture for her, she like to "go" outside unless the weather is truly dreadful). Any other advice you can give from experience? Should we leave the windows shades open or closed? I can't decide if looking outside will be fun for her or torture?! What about lights: lot of lights on or just a few? TIA! (The temperature on that day is predicted to have a *high* of 34, so probably too cold for what *she* would want as we leave: to be left outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a little later.) > As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1 > year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > outdoors! She often has those moments but always comes running back a > little later.) I use cat doors....They are small rectangular openings that you put in doors that have a leather or vinyl flap with a magnet at the bottom that kind of holds them closed to keep the cold air out. but the cat or small dog can push against them and they will open so it can go out. If you install them as far away from the door handle/lock as possible than thieves won't be able to reach the latch and get in, so they will be relatively safe. but they do require you to saw a rectangle in your door in order to install them.....They usually come with instructions and a template for doing this.....They also have a panel which will block them so your cat (or any other animal) won't be able to use them. They also make them in long aluminum sections for installation in sliding glass doors that lead to patios and the like....We have one of those, and two of the regular kind that lead from the kitchen to the garage, and thru the garage door to the outside so our cats can come and go day or night to either the front or the back yard. : I use cat doors.... I appreciate that as a long term solution, if she was my cat, :) but this trip is a sudden family development and I can only strive to make her as comfortable as possible for 24 hours and then face he ranger when I return! > : I use cat doors.... > > I appreciate that as a long term solution, if she was my cat, :) but > this trip is a sudden family development and I can only strive to make > her as comfortable as possible for 24 hours and then face he ranger > when I return! You leave her indoors for 24 hours. I mean, its either you leave her outside or inside, I think inside is the much better idea. Cats should be kept indoors all the time. By letting them roam outside they can get hit by cars, encounter people who might harm and abuse them, become a target for predators, and get in fights with other cats. All 3 of my cats are indoor cats and I'm a lot happier knowing they're safe. >> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1 >> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > garage door to the outside so our cats can come and go day or night to > either the front or the back yard. > Cats should be kept indoors all the time. By letting them roam outside > they can get hit by cars, encounter people who might harm and abuse them, [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >> the garage door to the outside so our cats can come and go day or night >> to either the front or the back yard. You may be happier, but are your cats happier? - This is an old argument, and I have come to the conclusion that what you do has to be tailored to the circumstances.....If you live in an apartment in the city, and you get a cat as a kitten, then sure.....You should keep an "indoor cat". but if you live out in the sticks, and you get cats (as I do) that are strays, feral, or were already outside cats, then you should keep them as they were, or as they are accustomed to living, which is outdoors. : You may be happier, but are your cats happier? - This is an old argument, : and I have come to the conclusion that what you do has to be tailored to the : circumstances... For a theoretical discussion I also feel that we can't have a universal rule for cats that ignores all specific circumstances any more than we could for people or children. For practical aspects of this particular situation, it really wasn't my decision. The cat's owners raised her to be outdoor/indoor. The area is safe enough. When I took over (for a total of 6 months when they are abroad) I continued with their system. When winter hit, her first one, she herself was wise enough to become 90% indoor! Usually people are coming and going and somebody is always around or about to arrive, and being there for her has not been a problem in practice. This is a special situation, people are away for the holidays and then a family situation arose that requires us to be gone for about 24 hours. I just want to make it as comfortable for her as possible. Regarding your previous comment about cat doors, I want to add that most ironically her own house, only a few doors away, has a cat door. However, it must feel lonely there and she has stopped going. I go there almost everyday to get mail etc and in the beginning I tried to take her with me thinking she'd like it, but she "dropped out" of the program herself. So for about two seconds I did think if I should leave in that house because of the cat door. But all of her life is here now and we soon felt that she would be happier here. > : You may be happier, but are your cats happier? - This is an old > argument, [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > in that house because of the cat door. But all of her life is here now > and we soon felt that she would be happier here. Yes. Of my four cats, the one who spends the most time indoors is the (former) feral cat that wouldn't even come in the house for the first three years we fed him. Now, he seldom leaves unless we have company.....More than about one stranger is too much for him, and he will leave until they are gone. Of the other three, they seldom leave the property, especially in Winter. And you are right. Cats in general like the company of people. Even wild ones like to hang around humans. My cousin used to own a grape farm in California's Napa Valley, and she had three wild cats that she watered, but didn't feed, so they would keep the birds away from the grapes.....These cats were unapproachable, but they still liked to lay around the farmhouse, about 10 or 15 yards from us while we were on her sundeck. Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:28:44 -0800 from William Graham <weg9 @comcast.net>: > This is an old argument, > and I have come to the conclusion that what you do has to be tailored to the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > were already outside cats, then you should keep them as they were, or as > they are accustomed to living, which is outdoors. There's something to that, but I would question even that rule of thumb. Dexter the Wonder Cat was an indoor/outdoor cat for his first five or six years. (I got him as a kitten, from a country farm.) I lived in a one-family house in a fairly dense inner suburb of Cleveland. When I was speaking with the animal warden on an unrelated matter, she strongly advised keeping Dexter indoors, not only because of cars and diseases and possible fights with other cats, but because of the skunks in the area. "I bring in at least one dead cat a shift, that has tangled with a skunk." This tipped the balance for me, since the vet had also advised keeping Dexter indoors. It took a few weeks of being *very* careful whenever I opened a door, but Dexter did adjust to being an indoor kitty. He loved sitting in the windowsill and watching the goings-on outdoors, and would run from one window to another to follow the progress of people or animals. It certainly helped that I spent a lot of time playing with him, but my experience is evidence that an indoor-outdoor cat can become a happy indoor-only cat.  SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com/ "If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/ This reminds me of the story about my brother and sister-in-law's cat Cody. They live in a rural type area with plenty of forestland. One day my sister-in-law came across a cat that had one paw get stuck in his collar and had to walk like that because he must have been trying to break free from it. Anyway, he was obviously in that condition for quite some time and having to hunt for food and survive like that for some time in an area full of predators is makes survivability very slim. Anyway, the cat did have an injury so my sister-in-law and brother brought him to the vet who found the human the cat belonged to. Imagine their surprise when the vet told them that the guy didn't want the cat because he didn't want to pay for treatment. My brother and sis-in-law paid for the treatment and kept the cat. They have 5 of them now. > Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:28:44 -0800 from William Graham <weg9 > @comcast.net>: [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > my experience is evidence that an indoor-outdoor cat can become a > happy indoor-only cat. > This reminds me of the story about my brother and sister-in-law's cat > Cody. They live in a rural type area with plenty of forestland. One day my [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] >> my experience is evidence that an indoor-outdoor cat can become a >> happy indoor-only cat. Kudos to your brothers family for helping and adopting the kitty. The "owner" who did not want the cat because of the vet bill should NEVER be an owner. Those types don't deserve to be pet "owners". Kitty > Cats should be kept indoors all the time. By letting them roam outside > they can get hit by cars, encounter people who might harm and abuse them, > become a target for predators, and get in fights with other cats. All 3 of > my cats are indoor cats and I'm a lot happier knowing they're safe. I'm sure the newgroup is sick of the argument but for anyone who does feel like joining in... My cat is an indoor cat. The thought of him ever making it outside makes me sick. That being said, my position is that if a cat is not raised as an indoors cat and has its claws, then I see no problem with allowing it to roam outdoors. Cats are animals. They live outdoors in the wild. In the past I may have said that cats should not be allowed out doors in big cities but I live in an apartment in a metropolitan area and there has been a cat I catch jumping out of our dumpster on a regular basis. It is a healthy looking at so I am not sure if it has a home that it goes to but it manages to survive the time it does spend outside. I've thought about trying to catch it and calling animal control but it is alive, it looks healthy, and it will not stay that way if it gets euthinized. I think arguing that cats should be kept indoors all the time because of the reasons you mention, Cat Protector, is made for good reasons but is unrealistic. An indoors cat could die in more than one ways from being trapped indoors. I doubt an unbiased party has attempted to generate statistics for the chances of an indoor cat living vs. an outdoor cat but even if it is well know, the point is that you can not protect a cat from everything. A person can get in a fight with a bear camping, but (some of us) still go camping. A person can get hit by a car but we still go outside. As much as we want to provide for and keep our cats safe the simple fact of the matter is that they are vulnerable living beings, just like us. My two cents. David >>> As I have mentioned previously, I am caring for a cat who is about 1 >>> year old. During the warmer days she was outdoors all day, but came [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] >> the garage door to the outside so our cats can come and go day or night >> to either the front or the back yard. "David" <davidd31415@yoowhoo.com> wrote in message > an apartment in a metropolitan area and there has been a cat I catch jumping > out of our dumpster on a regular basis. It is a healthy looking at so I am > not sure if it has a home that it goes to but it manages to survive the time > it does spend outside. I've thought about trying to catch it and calling > animal control but it is alive, it looks healthy, and it will not stay that > way if it gets euthinized. If that outdoor cat was spayed or neutered, I'd agree with you. However, too many wild, outdoor cats have a difficult time living outdoors in cities or anywhere else, especially in climates that have frigid winters. Add into the mix how fast cats can procreate and one realizes that feral cats can quickly become a real problem. To ignore outdoor cats assuming that they're living well is dooming a substantial number of them to hard, difficult deaths by starvation, cold, traffic, abuse or otherwise. My cat still has her claws, but she is the gentlest, most friendly cat one would ever want to have. I shudder to think of her foraging outside by herself in winter and struggling to survive. My two cents. Alright, perhaps this story will help support the reason why cats should be kept indoors. Last year I had the chance to write a story about the EAMT (Emergency Animal Medical Technician) unit here in Phoenix. One of the calls we went out on was about a mother cat and her kittens which were thrown in the trash dumpster by one of the residents of an apartment complex in west Phoenix. When we got there, another resident had pulled them from the dumpster and thus we were able to save them and transport them to the shelter. The thing that was sickening was the fact that the person who was suspected to have thrown them in the trash like beer cans walked right past us and didn't bat an eye. So, I think the question is this. If you let your own cat run free would you feel ok if someone picked up your cat, threw them in the trash and then didn't tell you about it? How also would you feel if your cat was found dead after it sufficated because more trash was piled on top of them as they meowed and cried for help but nobody did anything to stop it. The mother cat and her kittens were lucky but this could;ve been the scenario that played out if another resident hadn't heard there cries and crawled into the dumpster to get them out. This also happened in a bad part of town but still scenarios like this can happen even in the best of neighborhoods as animal abuse knows no bounds. You can argue how it's ok to let them out all you want but that means you also give permission to someone to possibly abuse or kill them. Would you feel ok if that happens? > I'm sure the newgroup is sick of the argument but for anyone who does feel > like joining in... [quoted text clipped - 79 lines] >>> the garage door to the outside so our cats can come and go day or night >>> to either the front or the back yard. : : Alright, perhaps this story will help support the : : reason why cats should be kept indoors. Last year I had [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : : suspected to have thrown them in the trash like beer : : cans walked right past us and didn't bat an eye. That's a sad story and I am very sorry, but in itself is not a reason to keep *all* cats indoors. In that particular area, maybe, but not *everywhere*. An individual must make the decision for themselves based on their location and situation. Here in the UK we don't behave like that. Well I suppose there are some that would but for the most part they don't. I've had cats for the best part of 40 years, all have been free to come and go as they please and all have lived to ripe old ages (average 16-18). Ivor It isn't? What if it happened to your cat? Why is that people wait until it happens to their cats before they do anything? It seems to me that if you act responsibily by keeping your cat indoors then you not only save their lives but also keep them from becoming victims. I guess I have to ask again, if your cat dies as a result of you not keeping them indoors, how would you feel? BTW, cats that live indoors have a longer life span than those that are outdoors. > That's a sad story and I am very sorry, but in itself is not a reason to > keep *all* cats indoors. In that particular area, maybe, but not [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ivor : : It isn't? What if it happened to your cat? Why is that : : people wait until it happens to their cats before they [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : : you feel? BTW, cats that live indoors have a longer : : life span than those that are outdoors. Please don't top post, it makes life very difficult following the thread. To answer your question, no cat I have had in 40 years has ever died from any cause that could be attributed to being outdoors. We live in a very quiet area with no through traffic and no idiots running around with guns, unlike some parts of the world. As I also said, if you had read my post, all my cats have lived long happy lives, the *average* age when they died was around 16 to 18. Ivor > Please don't top post, it makes life very difficult following the thread. > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Ivor It's funny how there are always people who say that because they live in some quiet area that nothing will ever happen with their cats. A cat can fall victim to animal cruelty no matter where they live. All it takes is one incident. It doesn't matter the age of the cat. The statistics are very clear also on cats that live indoors compared to ones that are outdoors. Cats that are indoor only will live much longer than those that spend their times outdoors. You claim to have no through traffic so how does one reach your house. Are you going by horse and carriage or do you actually have cars? My brother and sister-in-law live in a rural type area but they still ended up saving a cat that was wounded because his previous human allowed his cat not only to roam but also because he didn't want to pay the vet bill. The cat was lucky to survive in the condition he was in and could've fallen victim to predators. Regardless of where you live, in every country in this world there are people that if they had the chance could cause harm to your cat. Animal abuse has no boundaries and if you run the risk of allowing your cat to roam outside then you knowingly put them in danger that they don't need to be in. You also didn't even answer any of the questions. Could you really live with yourself if someone found your cat, abused or tortured him and then left him to die? How would you feel if you could've knowingly prevented something like that by simply not allowing your cat to roam outside? I hope you never have to go through that. Two of my parent's friends actually had a cat that they let roam free. Little did they realize that one day they found their cat had been beheaded and her body thrown into their yard. After that they definately had a tighter grip on their cats and kept them as indoor only. All it took was one incident for them to learn that you need to keep your cats indoors. : : "Ivor Jones" <ivor@thisaddressis.invalid> wrote in : : message news:5to1voF1ei54iU1@mid.individual.net... [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] : : are indoor only will live much longer than those that : : spend their times outdoors. Statistics are notorious for being manipulated to say whatever the person quoting them wants them to say. I take them with a pinch of salt. Personally I trust personal experience. *In this area* where I have lived for 35 years + there have never to my knowledge been any cases of cats dying or coming to harm *because they have been allowed outdoors*. In your area this is obviously different and if I were where you are I would probably do the same as you, but please don't force your views on me and my cats; you do not live here and do not know the local area. Yes it is *possible* that someone could be cruel to one of my cats, but then again it is also possible that someone could climb up a ladder and jump off the roof of my house. Personal experience tells me either is unlikely to happen here and it is taking that into account that I feel safe in letting cats outside around here. : : You claim to have no through traffic so how does one : : reach your house. Are you going by horse and carriage : : or do you actually have cars? I said *through* traffic, do you know what that means..? : : My brother and : : sister-in-law live in a rural type area but they still [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : : cat was lucky to survive in the condition he was in and : : could've fallen victim to predators. I am very sorry to hear it. But we have no predators to speak of here and my present cat never wanders far. : : Regardless of where you live, in every country in this : : world there are people that if they had the chance : : could cause harm to your cat. Animal abuse has no : : boundaries and if you run the risk of allowing your cat : : to roam outside then you knowingly put them in danger : : that they don't need to be in. Yes, cruelty can happen anywhere, but it has never happened within my cats'roaming radius to my knowledge. : : You also didn't even : : answer any of the questions. Could you really live with : : yourself if someone found your cat, abused or tortured : : him and then left him to die? I would be devastated. But as I said it has never happened in this area and the chances of it happening are as remote as you jumping off my roof. : : How would you feel if you : : could've knowingly prevented something like that by : : simply not allowing your cat to roam outside? I hope : : you never have to go through that. So do I, but the level of risk is worth taking. Not for you, that I agree, but here things are different. Incidentally, I happen to have a friend who lives not far from Phoenix, who also has cats. She keeps them inside and I understand why. But she admits if she were here in the UK things would be different. : : Two of my parent's friends actually had a cat that they : : let roam free. Little did they realize that one day [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : : only. All it took was one incident for them to learn : : that you need to keep your cats indoors. I am glad I don't live where you do. But if you lived here I think you would feel different. I think we'll leave it there. Happy New Year to you and your cats. Ivor Ivor Jones" <ivor@thisaddressis.invalid> wrote in > Statistics are notorious for being manipulated to say whatever the person > quoting them wants them to say. I take them with a pinch of salt. [quoted text clipped - 72 lines] > > Ivor I know what through traffic means but you can still hit a cat by accident with a car regardless. As for predators, are you trying to say that there are absolutely no predators other than humans that exist in the UK? That's weird since they exist in every country in the world. Animal cruelty happens everywhere in the world and it only takes once incident. It happens no matter whether you live in the city or in the country, it happens. You can also prevent your own cat from falling victim by keeping them indoors. The statistics are very clear and I doubt an animal rescue group would manipulate them. Almost every animal rescue group out there will tell you that a cat living indoors has a much longer life than one that lives outdoors. You seem to keep stating that it's unlikely to happen you'll ever encounter animal cruelty but what happens if it does. A lot of people seem to go out into the world claiming they'd never fall victim to a crime and that it always happens to someone else and then when they are the victim that's the only time they'll act. Bottom line, keeping your cats indoors will prolong their life and will prevent them from falling victim to animal cruelty, getting hit by cars, getting in fights with other cats, and from becoming a predator's next meal. : : Ivor Jones" <ivor@thisaddressis.invalid> wrote in : : [quoted text clipped - 93 lines] : : absolutely no predators other than humans that exist in : : the UK? I didn't say that. I said there are none known *in this area*. You seem to have a problem with that, you seem to think that what happens in your area happens everywhere. : : That's weird since they exist in every country : : in the world. Animal cruelty happens everywhere in the : : world and it only takes once incident. It happens no : : matter whether you live in the city or in the country, : : it happens. You can also prevent your own cat from : : falling victim by keeping them indoors. People jump off roofs everywhere too. But it's never happened here and I don't think that banning ladders is going to happen any time soon. : : The statistics are very clear and I doubt an animal : : rescue group would manipulate them. Almost every animal [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] : : when they are the victim that's the only time they'll : : act. I have news for you - I volunteer for a cat rescue charity and yes we have seen cases of cruelty, but not from the area I live in. : : Bottom line, keeping your cats indoors will prolong : : their life and will prevent them from falling victim to : : animal cruelty, getting hit by cars, getting in fights : : with other cats, and from becoming a predator's next : : meal. Bottom line - my cats have been free to go outside for 40 years and not one of them has ever died other than from natural causes at a ripe old age. Nor have any of the cats of my neighbours. I really do think we can leave it there, we're never going to agree and my cats will always be free to roam. I'm sorry for the problems in your area but theý're your problems not mine. Ivor > I didn't say that. I said there are none known *in this area*. You seem to > have a problem with that, you seem to think that what happens in your area [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Ivor Ignorance seems to be bliss in your case. First you say the statistics from animal rescue groups are manipulated then say that the chances of your cat ever falling victim to any kind of bad stuff is rare. You claim to volunteer for a cat rescue which you say has already seen cases of animal abuse so isn't that enough to convince you to keep your cats indoors or are you planning to be one of those people who won't act to protect your cat until it's too late? It's obvious from your responses that you really don't care about whether or not your cats fall victim to animal abuse. I feel really sorry for your cats because it'd be shame if something happened to them because you chose to be stubborn. I'll say it one more time, animal abuse happens everywhere and you knowingly put your cats in danger by allowing them to roam. It only takes one time for them to become victims of animal abuse. >> I didn't say that. I said there are none known *in this area*. You seem >> to have a problem with that, you seem to think that what happens in your [quoted text clipped - 55 lines] > and you knowingly put your cats in danger by allowing them to roam. It > only takes one time for them to become victims of animal abuse. Being trapped in a burning house with no way to escape is pretty abusive too. There is a solution, of course.....If you have a lot of property, you can fence it in with a cat-proof fence, and let your cats roam on it, or come indoors as they please. Or, if you are wealthy enough to live in a closed off neighborhood, where you know all the neighbors, you can let your cats roam free there. Where I live is almost that good....All my neighbors know and like all my cats.....One of them used to live in the house across the street from me. She moved in with us when they got a dog, and she detested the dog. I can't conceive of keeping my cats locked up in the house....Being outdoors is an integral part of their life. They like to go to the mailbox and wait there to greet all the neighbors when they come to pick up their mail. > >> I didn't say that. I said there are none known *in this area*. You seem > >> to have a problem with that, you seem to think that what happens in your [quoted text clipped - 70 lines] > > - Show quoted text - It is difficult trying to do the best by your cats. My cats have always been indoor cats only being outside, during the day, when I am home. They were taught to only "wander" in their own yard, which surprising they did. My front yard had a lot of trees and things for them to play with so they didn't venture past the driveway or into neighbours yards. My cat loved to lay on the drive, in the sun, and one day a neighbour decided to drive into ( on my property) my carport so he could turn his vehicle around. He ran over my cat. She didn't die at that time but a day later after surgery and it really broke my heart. She was a lovely cat and I was very attached to her and was very angry with my neighbour who had been constantly told not to use my drive as a "turning bay". It took a long time to "get over" loosing her but I subsequently got another cat who had been mistreated, had "social" issues and was about to be put down by the vet. She still has "issues" but she is a very sweet cat who is comfortable with me and loves her "brother" Max who is the direct opposite in nature. He is the extrovert of all extroverts. They are both kept inside all the time but they I have a balcony which they can sit on and watch what goes on in the world. I always worry about fire with them being inside but I do leave the balcony door open ( it has a security guard on it but the cats can fit through) so they have an escape route if there is a fire. Cats are great and can be trained to do things if you make the effort. Max knows what he is allowed to do and what not to do. He only answers to his name and really appears to understand what I tell him. ( He shakes paws, sits etc.) he is Mr personality plus and everyone, even people who dont like cats love him. I hate not letting him out because he enjoys rolling on the grass but I don't want to take the risk any more. > "Cat Protector" <catprotec...@cox.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 81 lines] > > - Show quoted text - It is difficult trying to do the best by your cats. My cats have always been indoor cats only being outside, during the day, when I am home. They were taught to only "wander" in their own yard, which surprising they did. My front yard had a lot of trees and things for them to play with so they didn't venture past the driveway or into neighbours yards. My cat loved to lay on the drive, in the sun, and one day a neighbour decided to drive into ( on my property) my carport so he could turn his vehicle around. He ran over my cat. She didn't die at that time but a day later after surgery and it really broke my heart. She was a lovely cat and I was very attached to her and was very angry with my neighbour who had been constantly told not to use my drive as a "turning bay". It took a long time to "get over" loosing her but I subsequently got another cat who had been mistreated, had "social" issues and was about to be put down by the vet. She still has "issues" but she is a very sweet cat who is comfortable with me and loves her "brother" Max who is the direct opposite in nature. He is the extrovert of all extroverts. They are both kept inside all the time but they I have a balcony which they can sit on and watch what goes on in the world. I always worry about fire with them being inside but I do leave the balcony door open ( it has a security guard on it but the cats can fit through) so they have an escape route if there is a fire. Cats are great and can be trained to do things if you make the effort. Max knows what he is allowed to do and what not to do. He only answers to his name and really appears to understand what I tell him. ( He shakes paws, sits etc.) he is Mr personality plus and everyone, even people who dont like cats love him. I hate not letting him out because he enjoys rolling on the grass but I don't want to take the risk any more. As long as it's your choice, you should do what you are comfortable with. I certainly would never make a law that insists that you allow you cats to roam outside. But, by the same token, you shouldn't make any laws that insist that I keep my cats inside. Unfortunately, the world is full of people who call themselves "liberals" who want to do just that. i.e.: Make laws that force the rest of the world to do what they want to do. Their attitude is, "If I do it, then it must be right, and therefore everyone should do it, and so I want a law that forces everyone to do it." "William Graham" wrote... > It is difficult trying to do the best by your cats... > ...I hate not letting > him out because he enjoys rolling on the grass but I don't want to > take the risk any more. Three of our cats love playing in a nearby field. The problem is, they have to cross a road which is the single access point for an estate of 116 households. I've no doubt about the risks (we've spent £550 on one of them who came back with a broken leg) but I'd rather they had a truncated, happy life than a long life imprisoned. "G Hardy" <gareth.hardy1@ntlwrold.com> wrote in message > who came back with a broken leg) but I'd rather they had a truncated, happy > life than a long life imprisoned. Short-sighted view. Who is to say that any indoor only cat is leading an unhappy life? My Deetoo is an indoor only cat (apartment) and while she likes to look out the window wonder what's going on out there, I *know* she's a happy, well adjusted cat. If the need to get outside and experience everything was of such paramount importance to the well being cats, when they went out, they'd never come back because there would always be something new to see and experience. Cats adjust well to any nurturing environment. If it's an indoor only location where they're fed well, cared for, get exercise and do all the things that cats do, it's all they need either emotionally or physically. To categorically state that a cat needs to get outside frequently for some emotional benefit is a flawed argument and a complete fallacy. "Upscale" wrote... > "G Hardy" <gareth.hardy1@ntlwrold.com> wrote in message >> who came back with a broken leg) but I'd rather they had a truncated, > happy >> life than a long life imprisoned. > > Short-sighted view. Not at all. We have two cats that are quite happy living the indoor life. The other three are desperate to get out every morning - sometimes to the extent that they'll go out for half an hour before they've even had breakfast. It's rare (they know that if they aren't there when the food goes down and one of the others eats it, that's their lot 'til teatime) but it happens - the last time was actually this morning. You're assuming that I think keeping cats indoors is cruel. You're wrong. I think preventing a cat from doing what it wants is cruel. "G Hardy" <gareth.hardy1@ntlwrold.com> wrote in message > > You're assuming that I think keeping cats indoors is cruel. You're wrong. I > think preventing a cat from doing what it wants is cruel. Maybe you're right. It is cruel to prevent a cat from chewing the electrical wires to the appliances in your home. It's cruel to stop them from jumping on the table when you're eating and stealing those shrimp you're eating. Hell, let's go whole hog. Stop putting the trash can lid on the garbage cans because your cat likes to play with it. When there's a hot burner on the stove boiling water, let the cat jump on the stove to see what's going on. How many other cruel things should we stop our cats from doing? You've convinced me. Next time my cat wants to go out and play on the railing of my seventh floor balcony, I'll not only help it to get out there, I'll lift it up and put it on the 1" wide railing. Every damned dangerous thing my cat wants to do, I'll let it. I guess the thousands of years that the expression "curiosity killed the cat" came into being have been just delusions on the part of humans. Excuse me now, I have to go help my cat do something else that's inherently dangerous just so it can have the freedom to do what it wants. ~ because it wants to. > "G Hardy" <gareth.hardy1@ntlwrold.com> wrote in message > >> You're assuming that I think keeping cats indoors is cruel. You're wrong. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > electrical > wires to the appliances in your home... Our cats don't do that. Perhaps if you let yours out, she wouldn't be so bored that chewing cables is "fun". > ...It's cruel to stop them from jumping > on the table when you're eating and stealing those shrimp you're eating. Ours don't do that, either. Perhaps if you fed yours properly, she wouldn't try. Or perhaps because we have several cats, they know that stealing each others' food usually earns a set of claws across the face. > Hell, let's go whole hog. Stop putting the trash can lid on the garbage > cans > because your cat likes to play with it. When there's a hot burner on the > stove boiling water, let the cat jump on the stove to see what's going on. Yet again, our cats don't do that. I think their curiosity is sated by being allowed out. You're not actually doing your argument any favours by spouting all this rubbish. The worst thing our cats do in the kitchen is jump onto one of the counters that has a radiator (room heater) underneath. We know they do it, they'd do it even if we weren't there if we tried to train them not to do it, so we just adjust our own behaviour and avoid preparing food on that counter. > How many other cruel things should we stop our cats from doing? You've > convinced me. Next time my cat wants to go out and play on the railing of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > up and put it on the 1" wide railing. Every damned dangerous thing my cat > wants to do, I'll let it. Well that's your stupid fault for having a pet cat in an unsuitable environment (in my own, humble opinion of course). The thing is, you live in the land where most cat owners find it acceptable to remove their cat's claws. In this country, that's largely deemed to br cruel, so (although I know your cat still has her claws) I'm not actually expecting any convincing argument from you. OK so we've got some plucked carpets, and they have the "tools" to break through my pizza wrapping and eat all the chicken from it, but those things are just objects. The cats are part of the family (and the pizza thing was pretty funny at the time). > I guess the thousands of years that the expression "curiosity killed the > cat" came into being have been just delusions on the part of humans. > Excuse > me now, I have to go help my cat do something else that's inherently > dangerous just so it can have the freedom to do what it wants. If you have to help the cat, then you've plainly missed the point. Ours don't even climb the Christmas tree - if they want to explore or hunt or play or whatever - they just go outside. If they want to sleep, eat or have a cuddle, they come in. It's that simple. Well almost. Despite having acres of countryside to choose from, they still come in if they need a cr*p. >> "G Hardy" <gareth.hardy1@ntlwrold.com> wrote in message > >>> You're assuming that I think keeping cats indoors is cruel. You're [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > Well almost. Despite having acres of countryside to choose from, they > still come in if they need a cr*p. With two of mine, their preferred way to eat is to break into a bag of kibbles and spill it all over the kitchen floor to eat it.....It doesn't bother me, so why not? If cats did a bunch of stuff that I didn't like, then I wouldn't like cats, and probably wouldn't have any. But the fact is, I like cats, and I like their habits, including their tendency to sharpen their claws on my furniture, hop on the table while we are eating, and spill kibbles all over the kitchen floor. > "Upscale" wrote... >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > You're assuming that I think keeping cats indoors is cruel. You're wrong. > I think preventing a cat from doing what it wants is cruel. I have found that if you get a cat neutered, It will stay very close to your house, and seldom leave the property, even if it is an outside cat. My cats did their wandering during the first couple of years, and now they are quite content to stick close to the house, where their food and preferred sleeping quarters are. > I have found that if you get a cat neutered, It will stay very close to > your house, and seldom leave the property, even if it is an outside cat. > My cats did their wandering during the first couple of years, and now they > are quite content to stick close to the house, where their food and > preferred sleeping quarters are. I've found no difference in their tendency to wander. I think males range further if they are "entire" but that's about it (and it's guesswork based on how long it takes for them to come home when called). The biggest difference from neutering was from our older, already-neutered male. He began spraying a few weeks after the kittens were born, and stopped a week or two after they had been neutered. > "William Graham" wrote... > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > who came back with a broken leg) but I'd rather they had a truncated, > happy life than a long life imprisoned. Yes.....I know what you mean. When I lived by a busy intersection in Menlo Park, California, I didn't encourage cats to live with me as I do now, but I would still acquire one now and then.....They were neighborhood strays that just liked the smell of my house. I am happier now that I live where they are quite safe, and I don't have to worry about them. I picked up my most recent one from a parking lot on a busy commercial street....He is much safer living here with me, but there are dangers that I can't control even here....The world, in general, is a dangerous place. "William Graham" wrote... > ...The world, in general, is a dangerous place. I know "upscale" has good intentions, but if you smother all your loved ones in bubble wrap and don't let them experience danger, pain and injury every once in a while - how do they learn? One of our cats, Sparky, broke her leg which could have been a car accident or a poorly judged jump from an upstairs window. Either way, she's obviously thankful that we had it fixed (she's very loving, now) but we don't stop her from going out. It's even more applicable to cats as they are far more resilient than kids. My 8-year-old son crosses the road outside school by himself. One of his friends has the decision to cross made for him by his mum, who tugs him back by his collar whenever a car is coming. Guess who I think has the better odds of survival...? "G Hardy" <gareth.hardy1@ntlwrold.com> wrote in message > I know "upscale" has good intentions, but if you smother all your loved ones > in bubble wrap and don't let them experience danger, pain and injury every You're kind of slow aren't you? The examples I gave you of things that could happen, were just examples, not a recitation of specific happenings. Cats can and do get into everything that they can reach. Your lame response to my examples was that you've trained your cats not to do those things. The advantage to humans having a bigger brain than cats, (although I'm not too sure about you) is that we can foresee certain instances when it's advisable not to let a cat do what it wants when it wants. That doesn't mean that you lock it up 24 hours a day, just that there's times when one wants to take precautions. If you can't see that then you really are lacking a sizable amount of intelligence. > You're kind of slow aren't you? The examples I gave you of things that > could > happen, were just examples, not a recitation of specific happenings. You didn't specify that. Your cat could choke on cat biscuits - so just give her meat. dipstick. > I know "upscale" has good intentions, but if you smother all > your loved ones in bubble wrap and don't let them experience [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > fixed (she's very loving, now) but we don't stop her from going > out. Not everyone has the money to have injuries fixed that are due to injuries caused by outdoor dangers. Some will just have them PTS or let them suffer and [hopefully] heal without pain killers or surgery. That is negligence. Do you agree? SignatureCheryl > Not everyone has the money to have injuries fixed that are due to > injuries caused by outdoor dangers. Some will just have them PTS or > let them suffer and [hopefully] heal without pain killers or surgery. > That is negligence. Do you agree? No If you don't have the means to fix cats' injuries, you shouldn't have them as pets. Imprisoning them is not (in my opinion) a solution to the problem. If you can afford to feed a cat, you can afford to insure its healthcare. "G Hardy" <gareth.hardy1@ntlwrold.com> wrote in message > > Imprisoning them is not (in my opinion) a solution to the problem. Who the hell are you to say that having a cat in an apartment is imprisonment? Where would you suggest the millions and millions of apartment dwelling cats go? If those cats weren't in the loving homes of people living in apartments, they'd be euthanized because there would be no place for them to go. Is that your solution, better to kill all those innocent animals because society can't conform to your opinion of total freedom? You really are that unthinking aren't you? There's always one of you a.sholes running around spouting off your bullshit. Pity any children you might have now or in the future and your warped sense of values passed onto them by your ignorance. > "G Hardy" <gareth.hardy1@ntlwrold.com> wrote in message > >> Imprisoning them is not (in my opinion) a solution to the problem. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > bullshit. Pity any children you might have now or in the future and your > warped sense of values passed onto them by your ignorance. Upscale I have said this hundred times before. It is always some newbie that starts this debate. They always are on a high horse already. You can't debate anything with them for they are right no matter what. Why even bother we know the truth as do others why waste your time. This debate has been going on since the beginning it always starts with a newbie who has never been to these groups before Also remember Europe has a different view of this. You can't win this debate it always boils down to name calling and total bullshit "Matthew" <Iamacatslave@proudtoserve.com> wrote in message > can't debate anything with them for they are right no matter what. Why even > bother we know the truth as do others why waste your time. You're right of course. In this case it's my believing that if I didn't at least try to change some perceived wrong, then I'm almost as culpable as they are for letting it continue on unabated without response. > You can't win this debate it always boils down to name calling and total bullshit And that's one of my weaknesses, letting myself sink in the morass of name calling. I think I must get some kind of perverse pleasure out of it. :) > "Matthew" <Iamacatslave@proudtoserve.com> wrote in message >> can't debate anything with them for they are right no matter what. Why [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > least try to change some perceived wrong, then I'm almost as culpable as > they are for letting it continue on unabated without response. You never will have you ever seen or heard someone in a heated debate change sides nope it does not happen Sex, religion,poilitcs and the inside outside debate will ruin friendship, break marriages and set anyone off the deep end >> You can't win this debate it always boils down to name calling and total > bullshit > > And that's one of my weaknesses, letting myself sink in the morass of name > calling. I think I must get some kind of perverse pleasure out of it. :) I am bad for it too we all are when we see stupidity we want to change it. When they can't get it life they get it here. Where they can run their mouths from the safety of their homes never having to worry about the consequences. Before the BBS,www they did it on the CB radio we called them cb rambos now we just call them trolls or a few other choice words > You never will have you ever seen or heard someone in a heated debate > change sides nope it does not happen I've been known to change my opinion when an argument is made that makes more sense than mine. >> You never will have you ever seen or heard someone in a heated debate >> change sides nope it does not happen > > I've been known to change my opinion when an argument is made that makes > more sense than mine. A debate and a argument are different >>> You never will have you ever seen or heard someone in a heated debate >>> change sides nope it does not happen [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > A debate and a argument are different I don't understand your point. A debate is a series of arguments. Upscale & I have been exchanging arguments in the debate of whether it's cruel to keep cats indoors. His latest about rescue cats is the best argument from his side so far (again, in my opinion) but as you'll see from my reply, it's not convinced me to change my opinion. >> You never will have you ever seen or heard someone in a heated debate >> change sides nope it does not happen > > I've been known to change my opinion when an argument is made that makes > more sense than mine. I would too, but there has never been any...... (just kidding) > "G Hardy" <gareth.hardy1@ntlwrold.com> wrote in message > >> Imprisoning them is not (in my opinion) a solution to the problem. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > because society can't conform to your opinion of total freedom? You really > are that unthinking aren't you? The answer is not to have got a cat in the first place. I do think it's imprisonment. It's my opinion, yours is different. Get over it. > There's always one of you a.sholes running around spouting off your > bullshit. For future reference, you can always tell you've lost an internet disagreement when you have to resort to personal abuse. "G Hardy" <gareth.hardy1@ntlwrold.com> wrote in message > The answer is not to have got a cat in the first place. I do think it's > imprisonment. It's my opinion, yours is different. The difference is that your opinion is based solely on emotion, mine is based on logic. Cats are euthanized in many animal shelters all the time. They're held for a certain period and if they're not adopted, they get put down. So your opinion is that it's better that cats are put to death instead of going to someone who might live in an apartment. How do you justify that opinion? > "G Hardy" <gareth.hardy1@ntlwrold.com> wrote in message >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > How do you justify that opinion? I'm not sure that I have to. It's still cruel, but (as you say) it's better than being dead. The argument is something akin to suggesting that it's OK to keep Siberian tigers in zoos, because they are almost extinct in the wild. Not sure about the US, but here in the UK zoos and circuses are very much berated because normally free-roaming animals go mad when confined. So for lions, camels, elephant, giraffe etc it's cruel to confine them. For endangered animals there are mitigating reasons for keeping them. It's still cruel, but it's a lot better than being extinct. Are you suggesting that apartment cats are EXCLUSIVELY rescue cats? If that's the case then you've got a good point (if not quite a winning one). I'd certainly agree that being cooped up in an apartment all day is better than a one-way trip to the vet. If the proportion of rescue cats versus non-rescue cats in apartments is the same as rescue cats versus non-rescue cats in unrestricted accommodation, and I see no reason why that shouldn't be the case, then your argument falls flat. : : "Ivor Jones" <ivor@thisaddressis.invalid> wrote in : : message news:5toc3eF1e71teU1@mid.individual.net... [quoted text clipped - 60 lines] : : planning to be one of those people who won't act to : : protect your cat until it's too late? Sigh.. ok let me put it this way. The chances of my cats being hurt due to abuse are so low as to be infinitesimal. They are far more likely to be hurt by you coming round and attacking them. It's as simple as that. I said statistics can be manipulated. This is true and no amount of arguing on your part will make it otherwise. : : It's obvious from your responses that you really don't : : care about whether or not your cats fall victim to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] : : cats in danger by allowing them to roam. It only takes : : one time for them to become victims of animal abuse. I am deeply offended by your remark. I care more for *all* cats than you can possibly imagine. Yes, abuse *can* happen any time anywhere, but the statistics, of which you are so fond, of it happening in this area, say it is so low as to be not worth bothering with. I would far rather my cats have their freedom than be confined like prisoners in a cell. End of discussion, I do not propose to reply to you any more as I am wasting my time. Ivor >Ignorance seems to be bliss in your case. First you say the statistics from >animal rescue groups are manipulated then say that the chances of your cat [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >knowingly put your cats in danger by allowing them to roam. It only takes >one time for them to become victims of animal abuse. Outdoor / indoor cats is a subject that cat owners will never agree on like the declawing debate. As for animal cruelty I agree that it exists EVERYWHERE in one form or another. Take for example the ex neighbor of mine that moved this past summer and left behind his cats that he had ten of. His reasoning is that they were indoor / outdoor cats even though he fed them indoor on a regular basis. Just because they were indoor / outdoor they were supposed to all of a sudden fend for themselves!! I eventually caught them all and found homes for most of them and the last couple a local shelter took. Then there was another ex friend that took his daughters elder cat. He would let it out whenever it wanted but then would not let it in unless it was right at the door when he went in the house even though it would come running as soon as it saw him. Many nights it would set at the door in freezing weather and snow waiting to go in but end up crawling under the porch where I finally put some bedding and dry food and would feed him wet food when I seen him. He dissappeared eventually and I or his OWNER never saw him again. Then there were the kids that threw the sickly stray onto the roof of a 2 story low income projects. The fire depart. got it down. It was put down by shelter because it had a cat disease. Then there was another case where a person just fed their cat milk cause could not afford cat food. The cat lost so much weight it died. Working in shelter you see all kinds of neglect / abuse ALL OVER!! And neglect is a form of abuse!!! Anyone who says there is no abuse / neglect where they live has their head stuck where ever!! Sun, 30 Dec 2007 14:08:20 GMT from kraut <NewsGroupsPlease@NewsGroupsPlease.org>: > Outdoor / indoor cats is a subject that cat owners will never agree on > like the declawing debate. > > As for animal cruelty I agree that it exists EVERYWHERE in one form or > another. Sigh. It is a grave mistake to frame the outdoor/indoor debate in terms of the peril of animal cruelty. That's like debating the dangers of smoking by mentioning only the danger of burning yourself with a cigarette lighter. Both are genuine perils, but quite rare. In both cases, focusing on the rare peril overlooks the very much more common peril. If there were zero cases of cruelty to cats, that would have little effect on the odds of harm coming to an outdoor cat, because perils from other animals and from automobiles are much, much more common. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com/ "If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/ > Ignorance seems to be bliss in your case. First you say the statistics > from animal rescue groups are manipulated then say that the chances of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > and you knowingly put your cats in danger by allowing them to roam. It > only takes one time for them to become victims of animal abuse. We've had cats for years and they are free to leave anytime they want if they feel us letting them out, is abusing them. Sun, 30 Dec 2007 01:54:51 -0000 from Ivor Jones <ivor@thisaddressis.invalid>: > I have news for you - I volunteer for a cat rescue charity and yes we have > seen cases of cruelty, but not from the area I live in. Deliberate cruelty is a *far* less common cause of death than misadventure. "Though traffic" is not the only way a cat can die. Getting run over at *any* speed could well be fatal. And, as mentioned in another thread, a cat that has snuggled into an engine compartment faces a particularly cruel death. If your neighborhood has no feral predators, no non-feral but territorial cats, no dogs sometimes off lead, no other cats that might have a communicable disease, no fleas and no ticks, then it is quite unusual. SignatureStan Brown, Oak Road Systems, Tompkins County, New York, USA http://OakRoadSystems.com/ "If there's one thing I know, it's men. I ought to: it's been my life work." -- Marie Dressler, in /Dinner at Eight/ [snip] : : If your neighborhood has no feral predators, no : : non-feral but territorial cats, no dogs sometimes off : : lead, no other cats that might have a communicable : : disease, no fleas and no ticks, then it is quite : : unusual. As I've repeatedly said, we've had cats at this location for 35 years or more and none have ever died from any cause that could remotely be attributed to them being allowed out. The closest we ever came was one who was found dead on a neighbour's driveway one day, he was 18 and had died of sheer old age, it just happened that he was out at the time and just lay down and passed away just yards from his front door. Ivor > Cats that are indoor only will live much longer than those that spend > their times outdoors. What are the actual statistics that you are referencing? Was the analysis performed by a neutral party? What's the margin of error on these statistics? What steps were taken to ensure there was no sample bias? How did the statistics differ when you compare the area that Ivor lives in with your own area? If you can't answer these questions your statistics are not very useful in this discussion. > My brother and sister-in-law live in a rural type area but they still > ended up saving a cat that was wounded because his previous human allowed > his cat not only to roam but also because he didn't want to pay the vet > bill. What does not paying a vet bill have to do with this discussion? The cat was wounded from roaming alone? What is this condition called? Spontaneous roaming injury syndrome? Usually attacks or accidents are involved. > Regardless of where you live, in every country in this world there are > people that if they had the chance could cause harm to your cat. Should we "simply" not own cats in order to ensure that those people never find the cat? Regardless of what you do, it is always possible that a cat will be abused. This is unfortunate but place blame accordingly. > Animal abuse has no boundaries and if you run the risk of allowing your > cat to roam outside then you knowingly put them in danger that they don't > need to be in. Do you suggest that people strip their homes of utilities to prevent the cats from being in danger that they don't need to be in? I'll say what I said before- everyone is always in danger. It's an unfortunate but true part of life. How many cats died during Katrina and the various major earthquakes that hit California? How many of these cats would have lived longer lives if they had never been constrained to the indoors in the first place? Of course you can't answer that question and obviously SOME of them would have died from being outdoors but the point is that no matter what we do, unfortunate events happen. > Two of my parent's friends actually had a cat that they let roam free. > Little did they realize that one day they found their cat had been > beheaded and her body thrown into their yard. After that they definately > had a tighter grip on their cats and kept them as indoor only. All it took > was one incident for them to learn that you need to keep your cats > indoors. Why didn't they move to an area safer for cats? They should have researched thousands of areas to find a place similar to where Ivor lives, in my opinion. How can they live with themselves knowing that such a notorious animal abuser is near by? Animal abusers CAN break into homes, do they know this? Do these people care about their cats at all? They sound downright evil and you call them your friends? </sarcasm> See Cat, all of us can blame the good guys. You might respond to my statements above by saying "well, the chances of someone breaking into their home and abusing their cats are very slim." If you did, I would agree with you and I would point out to you that you sound EXACTLY like Ivor. If only all of us could live in areas that are as cat friendly as Ivor's! He's not using statistics, he's giving you raw data. Why don't you acknowledge it? Forty years of outdoor cats living from 16-18 years old with no deaths as a result of outdoor living. That is awesome! My first cat almost died before his first birthday because of an INDOOR accident. Dave >> Cats that are indoor only will live much longer than those that spend >> their times outdoors. [quoted text clipped - 74 lines] > > Dave There are always "what if" extremes. The flip side could be that you should have every cat euthanized immediately when you get them. As it will save them from years of possible injuries and pain. Guess that might have it's downpoints too though. > Alright, perhaps this story will help support the reason why cats should > be kept indoors. Last year I had the chance to write a story about the [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > also give permission to someone to possibly abuse or kill them. Would you > feel ok if that happens? No, but this is a cruel world. It was a cruel world for millions of years before human beings appeared on the scene, and we haven't helped matters much. Millions of sweet furry little innocent creatures starve and/or freeze to death every Winter, and even under the best of circumstances, wild animals die tortuous deaths from tooth aches and other terrible infections and cancerous diseases. I don't have the time or inclination to sit there and watch over my four cats night and day. I give them shelter, and food and water, and if they are hurting, I take them to the Vet. (actually, she comes to me in a mobile unit). Beyond that, they have to learn to take care of themselves. If you want to spend more of your time than that, well, I have no objection. But I can't, so I maintain an open home for them in a location that is as safe as one can expect. (I live in the suburbs on the edge of town, on a one way street.) That's the best I can do, and most of the animals I have owned during my 72 years have lived long healthy lives.....Much longer and healthier than the ones they would have lived had they never known me, and had to just depend on God. >no objection. But I can't, so I maintain an open home for them in a location >that is as safe as one can expect. (I live in the suburbs on the edge of >town, on a one way street.) That's the best I can do, and most of the >animals I have owned during my 72 years have lived long healthy >lives.....Much longer and healthier than the ones they would have lived had >they never known me, and had to just depend on God. Our 11 year old kitty was part of a litter of feral cats caught in the wild and taken to a local vet from where we got her. I have no doubt that she has already lived longer as an indoor kitty than she would have had mom and kits not been caught way back when. She is currently enjoying a second childhood as we have recently gotten a 5 year old 'rescue' Corgi (who is a monster for his breed at 90 or so lbs) after our 14 year old Corgi went to doggie heaven last May. The cat always comes round when the dog is being fed as my wife feeds the dog a mix of dry and wet dog feed and lets the cat lick the spoon when done. There's no question which of the 7 lb. kitty or 90 lb. dog rules the roost....she occasionally will dash out the front door when we bring in the newspaper but almost always runs out the front door, round the side of our house through our chain link fence, up the stairs to the deck and mews at the side door. On a couple of occasions I've called to the missus who has opened the side door and our kitty runs back into the house having hardly stopped running the whole time - elapsed time outdoors maybe 45 seconds! >>no objection. But I can't, so I maintain an open home for them in a >>location [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > into the house having hardly stopped running the whole time - elapsed > time outdoors maybe 45 seconds! Yes. My "outdoor" cats seldom leave the premises. One likes to wait at the mailboxes to greet all the neighbors when they come to pick up their mail, but the mailboxes are right across the street from us. My biggest problem is their tendency in the Summertime, to lie on the street, or in the driveway where some truck turning around might run them down. Since we are near the end of a dead end street, vehicles use our driveway to do a U turn when they come down our street either by mistake, or to deliver something to one of us. I purchased a couple of orange traffic cones which I leave in our driveway, but I still worry about it. <snip> Sad story with a happy ending- did the abuser get charged? > So, I think the question is this. If you let your own cat run free would > you feel ok if someone picked up your cat, threw them in the trash and > then didn't tell you about it? I would feel that they shold be charged with cruelty to animals. > How also would you feel if your cat was found dead after it sufficated > because more trash was piled on top of them as they meowed and cried for > help but nobody did anything to stop it. Probably similar to how I would feel if it died in any sort of accident, at home or not. The thought of the cat stuck in a burning house is just as devastating to me. > The mother cat and her kittens were lucky but this could;ve been the > scenario that played out if another resident hadn't heard there cries and > crawled into the dumpster to get them out. This also happened in a bad > part of town but still scenarios like this can happen even in the best of > neighborhoods as animal abuse knows no bounds. Animal abuse is wrong and I do not support it. > You can argue how it's ok to let them out all you want but that means you > also give permission to someone to possibly abuse or kill them. Animal abuse is illegal in my state, what state do you live in? If I decided to allow my cat to leave my apartment I would not be giving anyone persmission to do anything to him. Why would you think such a thing? Sure, it opens up the possibility that someone COULD do something to him. Re-read the last three sentences of the post you responded to and respond to those if you have not realized your error. >Would you feel ok if that happens? What do you think? > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > What do you think? It's a dangerous world. Everyone who is born into it eventually dies. You can spend your whole life crouched in a padded cell surrounded by a bubble to keep out germs and you might live, on the average, a few years more than the average person does. But would you call that living? If not, then why would you choose that kind of life for your cat? What? - You say that living in a nice apartment in the city is not the same thing as a padded cell. - Perhaps not, but exactly where do you draw the line? There are some people who spend their whole lives risking death. They climb mountains, fly jet planes, deep sea dive over a hundred feet below the surface, and etc, and etc. And then there are others who do live in a virtual padded cell. I believe everyone has the right to make the decision for themselves as to what kind of life style they want to live, and how they want to die. That is why I am against seat belt and helmet laws, but that's another story. Right now, I am arguing for my cats. They too, have the right, in my opinion, to stay inside, on my couch, (or wherever) or, to go outside and risk their lives in the big world. Try to remember that you only live once, and for a damn short time at that, but death is forever. The universe has been here for billions of years before me and my cats were born, and it will be here for an awful long time after we are all dead. Our forefathers died for their (and our) freedom. We might as well enjoy it now that they paid such a high price for it. And, I think that I will let my cats enjoy a little of it too. [snip] : : Right now, I am arguing for my : : cats. They too, have the right, in my opinion, to stay [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] : : such a high price for it. And, I think that I will let : : my cats enjoy a little of it too. Well said, sir. Ivor >> Cats should be kept indoors all the time. By letting them roam outside >> they can get hit by cars, encounter people who might harm and abuse them, [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > David Yes. One of the things I don't have to worry about is any of my cats being trapped in the house in a fire. They all know how to skeedaddle out through the cat doors in a hurry when they want to, or have to. >> A person can get in a fight with a bear camping, but (some of us) still >> go camping. A person can get hit by a car but we still go outside. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > trapped in the house in a fire. They all know how to skeedaddle out > through the cat doors in a hurry when they want to, or have to. Cool, that would give you the necessary time to save any babies that happen to be sitting around ;). >>> A person can get in a fight with a bear camping, but (some of us) still >>> go camping. A person can get hit by a car but we still go outside. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Cool, that would give you the necessary time to save any babies that > happen to be sitting around ;). I'm not exactly sure what you mean by this. I don't generally leave my babies in the house when I am gone, unless there is some responsible person there with them. But I can't take my four cats with me wherever I go, so I leave them with two cat doors, leading to the front yard and the back yard. I can only hope they will be smart enough to leave through them if they need to. >>>> A person can get in a fight with a bear camping, but (some of us) still >>>> go camping. A person can get hit by a car but we still go outside. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > back yard. I can only hope they will be smart enough to leave through them > if they need to. William, I was referring to our abortion argument and our disagreements on human life. Not trying to re-start it, just poking some fun at it. >>>>> A person can get in a fight with a bear camping, but (some of us) >>>>> still go camping. A person can get hit by a car but we still go [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > I was referring to our abortion argument and our disagreements on human > life. Not trying to re-start it, just poking some fun at it. Ah! - I understand. My position on abortion is fairly simple. Somewhere between conception and about 18 years after birth, a human being gets the constitutional right to life. Exactly where this is should be determined by the courts. I am willing to accept their decision, whatever it happens to be, because I have ho religion, and therefore no ax to grind....Roe Vs. Wade set that point at the first trimester after conception. That sits well with me, but hey, I am totally open to argument...... "William Graham" <weg9@comcast.net> wrote in message news:wtSdneCiCbIn3w3anZ2dnUVZ_ramnZ2d@comcast.com... > "David" <davidd31415@yoowhoo.com> wrote in message > news:iv2dnaaiv6KIuQ3anZ2dnUVZ_sednZ2d@comcast.com... [quoted text clipped - 71 lines] > disqualifying statement. I will usually say something like, "I only have > outside cats, but....." Yes, you do a good job qualifying your responses. This doesn't make you incapable of considering a situation. >If someone takes my advice on the matter as that of an expert on inside >cats, well, that's their bad judgment, and not mine. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > short period of time, and then ask them whether they might consider > keeping their cats inside.....this is ridiculous. It's an exaggerated situation. The point of it was to see if there were any conditions whatsoever under which you would justify keeping a cat "locked" indoors. > I would consider not keeping any cats at all before I considered keeping > 10 cats inside. Is that an answer? Not really but I guess I could make assumptions based on it. Perhaps if you were in the given situation you would simply lock all the cats out of your home and not care for any of them... Please realize that I am not insinuating that you would actually put yourself in the situation that I described. I was just wondering what you would do if you had magically found yourself in that situation. If you refuse to play along, that's fine. > Just for the record. I lived on the intersection of Santa Cruz Avenue and > Sand Hill Road in Menlo Park, California for 15 years. During that time I [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > stay with me at all, nor did I expect them to survive for very long. They > both did survive for over ten years, however, and died natural deaths. Suddenly, without wa |
Enable EMail Alerts
Start New Thread
Reply to this Message