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Cat Forum / General Topics / March 2004One kitty that's a bit too curious
My family and I live in an Orange County suburb. We are not pet owners. There are hundreds of stray cats in our community, but many hang about our house. This is the result of dry foods left in our carport our well-meaning but bothersome neighbors. The cats, I suppose, were the semi-adopted pets of the previous occupants of our home. So now, they're either accustomed to eating in our driveway or just feel that they belong here. That alone wouldn't bother us. But at least two of the cats have taken to hanging about our front door, and one has made several impressive attempts to enter our house. So here's the problem: We have no intention of hurting these animals. We also don't want to have them taken from an area that they feel is their home. It just wouldn't be fair. However, we have chosen not to be pet owners for a reason. So what's the solution? >My family and I live in an Orange County suburb. We are not pet >owners. There are hundreds of stray cats in our community, but many [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >their home. It just wouldn't be fair. However, we have chosen not to >be pet owners for a reason. So what's the solution? First of all, thanks for approach this problem in a responsible manner. I would suggest using the yellow pages and Internet to find a kitty rescue service in your area. Kitty rescue services are experienced in humanely trapping these animals and will find them homes. They do not euthanize them. Although the cats will be eventually taken from "their home" in your carport, they will eventually find better homes where they can eat on a regulatr basis, be medically supervised, and have loving pet owners. Having them taken from this home in the carport is more humane than having them outside and unprotected. It is fair to relocate them. Being outside exposes them to disease, predatory animals, accidents by cars, and an occasional irate or unfeeling human. You are commended for your humane approach. I would caution that amongst the "strays" will be a number of non-strays. And when they're taken to the shelter, their owners will wonder what's happened to them. > >My family and I live in an Orange County suburb. We are not pet > >owners. There are hundreds of stray cats in our community, but many [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > You are commended for your humane approach. >I would caution that amongst the "strays" will be a number of non-strays. >And when they're taken to the shelter, their owners will wonder what's >happened to them. It is my contention that they have no owners. One of the risks you take when you allow an animal outside, to essentially fend for itself, is that someone will mistake it for a stray. Too bad! If you want to protect your pet and make sure no one tries to take it, humanely, don't let it out. > >I would caution that amongst the "strays" will be a number of non-strays. > >And when they're taken to the shelter, their owners will wonder what's [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > will mistake it for a stray. Too bad! If you want to protect your pet and > make sure no one tries to take it, humanely, don't let it out. Maybe in America - but in England, there are very few cats that don't go out .... there are no coyotes here. And TBH, cooping them up indoors is rather frowned upon - since cats are semi-wild creatures, anyway. A free cat is a happy cat - just a free man is a happy man. >> make sure no one tries to take it, humanely, don't let it out. > >Maybe in America - but in England, there are very few cats that don't go out I'd think traffic would the the #1 risk to them, anywhere. That's what I don't understand...maybe you can offer a theory. I know that cats in the UK mostly are allowed outdoors....yet I've seen many UK posters who claim they rarely ever see cats as roadkill. What's the difference, I wonder, since plenty of cats are dead on the highways/streets here. The sad fact is, truly, that outdoor cats in the metro areas here just don't last long. If they do, it's sure the exception, not the rule. LOL, I have living proof in my house that a free cat isn't always a happy cat. I've got a stray that I vetted, and brought inside two months ago. She *refuses* to even go near the door if it's open. Apparently she thinks freedom isn't what it's cracked up to be, and prefers food, heat, and shellter to the great outdoors. Sherry Subjective interpretation. If you keep a cat indoors long enough, it may develop agoraphobia if it's prone. Did it not ask to go out, in all that time ? > >> make sure no one tries to take it, humanely, don't let it out. > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Sherry >Subjective interpretation. >If you keep a cat indoors long enough, it may develop agoraphobia if it's >prone. >Did it not ask to go out, in all that time ? Nice theory, but, no. The cat never "asked" to go outdoors from day 1. I don't think agoraphobia develops that fast. Speaking of which, I've never heard of feline agoraphobia. Do you have any informational sources on the subject? Sherry Spent a life outdoors and never once asked to go out again ? Yeah right - and my name's Jiminy Cricket. > >Subjective interpretation. > >If you keep a cat indoors long enough, it may develop agoraphobia if it's [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Sherry >Spent a life outdoors and never once asked to go out again ? >Yeah right - and my name's Jiminy Cricket. I really don't give a sh.t *what* your name is. If you bothered to read for comprehension, you'd know it's a stray that we brought in. I have no idea where she spent her "life" prior to jumping on my window, starved. You also missed the part asking for credible sources for the "feline agoraphobia" you seem to be so knowledgeable about. Sherry No need to get .... catty - hehe. > >Spent a life outdoors and never once asked to go out again ? > >Yeah right - and my name's Jiminy Cricket. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sherry >No need to get .... catty - hehe. Not being catty at all :-) I'm just very interested in your "feline agoraphobia" diagnosis. What is your source? How prevalent is "feline agoraphobia" among house cats? How is it treated? Details, please. >Maybe in America - but in England, there are very few cats that don't go out >.... there are no coyotes here. >And TBH, cooping them up indoors is rather frowned upon - since cats are >semi-wild creatures, anyway. >A free cat is a happy cat - just a free man is a happy man. I've heard that argument before. I don't agree with it. Why should I agree with what you people say anyway, you drive on the wrong side of the road. Are cats and humans so very different. Both are intelligent and suffer when caged/incarcerated. That's why zoos went out of business - the exhibits suffered too greatly. How is a cat a special exception ? > >Maybe in America - but in England, there are very few cats that don't go out > >.... there are no coyotes here. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I've heard that argument before. I don't agree with it. Why should I agree > with what you people say anyway, you drive on the wrong side of the road. >Are cats and humans so very different. >Both are intelligent and suffer when caged/incarcerated. >That's why zoos went out of business - the exhibits suffered too greatly. >How is a cat a special exception ? You're comparing the intelligence of cats to the intelligence of Humans??? Caged? You mean like a small gated pen where all they can do is go back and forth? I'll admit, my apartment is small, but that's not how I would describe it. So, a cat in an apartment is the same as a polar bear in a small enclosure, that keeps banging its nose up against the bars in frustration? Does feeding, playing with, petting and stroking, buying toys for, keeping in good health change your equation at all? How about the other side of the equation, the dangers from the outside world we protect the cats from? Oh, you're probably thinking that if another animal, or a bunch of mean kids chase a cat up a pole or a tree, that's good for the cat, because he is able to use his flight or fight instincts. As the cat is up the tree shaking and panting, you are looking at it and saying to yourself, "boy, that's living." What a bizarre viewpoint you have. You're trying to 'justify' imprisoning a cat on the grounds that it's better than winding up dead. Being chased up a tree isn't exactly traumatic for a cat. If you honestly think that a cat couldn't cope with that, I think you've led to sheltered an existence. You're never gunna be able to justify incarceration for life, so don't even bother trying. Deal with it. > >Are cats and humans so very different. > >Both are intelligent and suffer when caged/incarcerated. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > tree shaking and panting, you are looking at it and saying to yourself, "boy, > that's living." >Are cats and humans so very different. >Both are intelligent and suffer when caged/incarcerated. >That's why zoos went out of business - the exhibits suffered too greatly. Do you actually think about what you are typing? Zoos went out of business because the animals there are caged? You mean the animals went on strike? What planet are you from? Dik > >Are cats and humans so very different. > >Both are intelligent and suffer when caged/incarcerated. > >That's why zoos went out of business - the exhibits suffered too greatly. > > Do you actually think about what you are typing? Obviously more than you. Real question is - do you think AT ALL ? Zoos went out of business > because the animals there are caged? Duhhhhhh ! Let me explain the concept in a way that you'll understand. Zoos lost popularity because people understood the reality of what caging intelligent animals results in. For this reason, they went to see them in safari parks - where they had humane and stimulating environments. Do you also keep a honey bear in a 3-foot cage, with a tube stuck in its gall bladder perchance ? You mean the animals went on strike? What > planet are you from? > > Dik >Zoos lost popularity because people understood the reality of what caging >intelligent animals results in. >For this reason, they went to see them in safari parks - where they had >humane and stimulating environments. I don't know why you claim that zoos are closing. They aren't; and there is a good reason for that. Much as I dislike animals being caged in zoos, zoos are a vital educational resource for poor urban children. Safari zoos? What is this? Let them eat cake? Many of these children's parents can't afford to fly their children to safari parks. Following your indoor cats reasoning, these parents simply shouldn't have children, right? Many zoos are also caretakers for species that would otherwise be extinct, because their habitats have destroyed by uncaring humans. I suggest that you have a bit more compassionate for poor children and endangered species. Dik Your argument entirely misses the point. > >Zoos lost popularity because people understood the reality of what caging > >intelligent animals results in. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Dik >... since cats are semi-wild creatures, anyway. A free cat is a happy cat - just a free man is a happy man.< You would find kinship in our Patrick Henry. In his words, "give me liberty, or give me death". Unfortunately, if I were to let my cats out to roam the mean street of NYC, she would promptly be both: free and thoroughly dead. Yes, cats are semi-wild creatures whose instincts are to be outdoor. Unfortunately, they developed their instincts before the age of SUVs, and malicious kids armed with box cutters. There are good reasons why not many cats are eagerly crossing Manhattan's busy streets during rush hour. Free and happy: my cats might not be free to play chicken with speeding SUVs. But I think she is happy to be alive. Dik But you're confusing two different arguments. A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is happier than a free and imprisoned cat. How would you fancy spending the rest of your natural life indoors - with no prospect of release ? If you can't let a cat go outside (because it's unsafe), you shouldn't keep one at all - it's just selfishness. > >... since cats are semi-wild creatures, anyway. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Dik "QBall" <qball__@btinternet.com> dumped this in news:c3vsts$hs9$1 @titan.btinternet.com on 25 Mar 2004: > A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is happier > than a free and imprisoned cat. Well now this makes a lot of sense.  SignatureCheryl > "QBall" <qball__@btinternet.com> dumped this in news:c3vsts$hs9$1 > @titan.btinternet.com on 25 Mar 2004: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Well now this makes a lot of sense. What's wrong, do you want me to explain it to you ? > -- > Cheryl "QBall" <qball__@btinternet.com> dumped this in news:c40mpu$k4s$1 @sparta.btinternet.com on 26 Mar 2004: >> "QBall" <qball__@btinternet.com> dumped this in news:c3vsts$hs9$1 >> @titan.btinternet.com on 25 Mar 2004: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > What's wrong, do you want me to explain it to you ? Uh, no thanks. I've read some of your posts, and they all read pretty illiterate so I doubt you'd be able to clarify what you meant. SignatureCheryl > "QBall" <qball__@btinternet.com> dumped this in news:c40mpu$k4s$1 > @sparta.btinternet.com on 26 Mar 2004: [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Uh, no thanks. I've read some of your posts, and they all read pretty > illiterate so I doubt you'd be able to clarify what you meant. I can if you like - don't be embarrassed, not everyone is comfortable with multisyllabic vocabulary. > -- > Cheryl >> "QBall" <qball__@btinternet.com> dumped this in news:c40mpu$k4s$1 >> @sparta.btinternet.com on 26 Mar 2004: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I can if you like - don't be embarrassed, not everyone is comfortable > with multisyllabic vocabulary. My first instinct is to end this which will be OT, but since most of your posts are insults I'm going to call you on it. Would you like to pick apart this sentence and then tell me what you really meant? In this case you're allowed to reword it for clarity. :) ---begin C&P---- A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is happier than a free and imprisoned cat. ---end C&P----- SignatureCheryl /who really hates to go the route of grammar police but s/he was begging for it. > >> "QBall" <qball__@btinternet.com> dumped this in news:c40mpu$k4s$1 > >> @sparta.btinternet.com on 26 Mar 2004: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > than a free and imprisoned cat. > ---end C&P----- OK. No live cat wants to be a dead cat (unless of course, it's suffering existential depression ;-) ). But a cat that is free to go outside is happier than one which isn't. If you can't figure the logic of how this supports the point I originally made, then you need the help of someone professionally qualified rather than me. > -- > Cheryl > /who really hates to go the route of grammar police but s/he was begging > for it. >> >> "QBall" <qball__@btinternet.com> dumped this in news:c40mpu$k4s$1 >> >> @sparta.btinternet.com on 26 Mar 2004: [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > originally made, then you need the help of someone professionally > qualified rather than me. LOL It's really amazing how your mistake still eludes you. As I thought, not very bright. SignatureCheryl > >> >> "QBall" <qball__@btinternet.com> dumped this in news:c40mpu$k4s$1 > >> >> @sparta.btinternet.com on 26 Mar 2004: [quoted text clipped - 41 lines] > LOL It's really amazing how your mistake still eludes you. As I thought, > not very bright. Pot, meet kettle. > -- > Cheryl >> >> >> "QBall" <qball__@btinternet.com> dumped this in >> >> >> news:c40mpu$k4s$1 @sparta.btinternet.com on 26 Mar 2004: [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > Pot, meet kettle. Typical response. Use a cliche. I expected that. ;) SignatureCheryl > But you're confusing two different arguments. > A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is happier [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > > > Dik I think that it is possible that cats go outside because they are afraid of what might be out there and they have a tendency to confront threats rather than avoid them. There is no doubt in my mind that our cats love to stretch outside in the sun but they also seem to be in great anxiety when in a new environment and seem to spend a lot of time trying to be sure there are no strange cats or dogs or loud cars in the area. I'm not sure that they are happier outside. I have spent many hours and hundreds of dollars to try to make our backyard cat proof, though. It is almost there, as I've said at least 5 times before. > > But you're confusing two different arguments. > > A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is happier [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > afraid of what might be out there and they have a tendency > to confront threats rather than avoid them. Wow, it's all getting a bit psycho-babbly, isn't it ? Next you'll be trying to tell us that cats get existential depression. There is no doubt > in my mind that our cats love to stretch outside in the sun but > they also seem to be in great anxiety when in a new environment > and seem to spend a lot of time trying to be sure there are no > strange cats or dogs or loud cars in the area. It's called being conscious. I'm not sure that > they are happier outside. I have spent many hours and hundreds > of dollars to try to make our backyard cat proof, though. It is > almost there, as I've said at least 5 times before. > > > But you're confusing two different arguments. > > > A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > Wow, it's all getting a bit psycho-babbly, isn't it ? > Next you'll be trying to tell us that cats get existential depression. That is my honest observation. I doubt there is much angst in animals that aren't overly aware of their own mortality. > There is no doubt > > in my mind that our cats love to stretch outside in the sun but > > they also seem to be in great anxiety when in a new environment > > and seem to spend a lot of time trying to be sure there are no > > strange cats or dogs or loud cars in the area. Gee, that was insightful. <| : -} > > I'm not sure that > > they are happier outside. I have spent many hours and hundreds > > of dollars to try to make our backyard cat proof, though. It is > > almost there, as I've said at least 5 times before. > > > > But you're confusing two different arguments. > > > > A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > That is my honest observation. I doubt there is much angst > in animals that aren't overly aware of their own mortality. Hello, Earth to NSQ ! > > There is no doubt > > > in my mind that our cats love to stretch outside in the sun but [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > of dollars to try to make our backyard cat proof, though. It is > > > almost there, as I've said at least 5 times before. > > > > > But you're confusing two different arguments. > > > > > A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is [quoted text clipped - 53 lines] > > Hello, Earth to NSQ ! I am on earth. Where do you think I am? Do you have these fantasies often? No, I won'd dress up in a martian maids uniform. > > > There is no doubt > > > > in my mind that our cats love to stretch outside in the sun but [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > > of dollars to try to make our backyard cat proof, though. It is > > > > almost there, as I've said at least 5 times before. > > > > > > But you're confusing two different arguments. > > > > > > A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > these fantasies often? No, I won'd dress up in a martian > maids uniform. Errr ..... I wasn't the one who mentioned Martian maids' unifoms. <SNIP> >> I am on earth. Where do you think I am? Do you have >> these fantasies often? No, I won'd dress up in a martian >> maids uniform. > >Errr ..... I wasn't the one who mentioned Martian maids' unifoms. What's a 'unifom'? eq > <SNIP> > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What's a 'unifom'? Similar to a uniform, but more discreet - since you can't see someone's "R"s(e) in a unifom. > eq >> <SNIP> >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >> eq http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=unifom >But you're confusing two different arguments. >A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is happier >than a free and imprisoned cat. Actually, the real argument is: is a free and DEAD cat happier than a living indoor cat. Well, you might think that some cats prefer to be road kill, I think that my cat prefer to be alive and well. My cat shows no sign of being depressed because she leads an indoor life. She is sitting on my lap purring, as I type. >If you can't let a cat go outside (because it's unsafe), you shouldn't keep one at all - it's just selfishness.< So you think people living in urban area should surrender their cats to animal shelters, where the cats would either be caged in small pens, or euthanized? Geez, how selfish is that. Dik > >But you're confusing two different arguments. > >A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is happier > >than a free and imprisoned cat. > > Actually, the real argument is: is a free and DEAD cat happier than a living > indoor cat. OK, let's stick to live cats then. Which is happier - a free cat in a safe environment or an imprisoned cat in an unsafe one ? Well, you might think that some cats prefer to be road kill, I > think that my cat prefer to be alive and well. My cat shows no sign of being > depressed because she leads an indoor life. She is sitting on my lap purring, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > So you think people living in urban area should surrender their cats to animal > shelters, where the cats would either be caged in small pens, or euthanized? No, I think people living in unsafe environments shouldn't be allowed to adopt cats at all. You're trying to win this argument with stupid and melodramatic scenarios. Ain't working, sonny. Deal with the fact that you're an inhumane cat jailer - go on, just for the cat's sake. And when you've taken the reality of that in, try imprisoning yourself for just four days and come back to us. > Geez, how selfish is that. > > Dik > > >But you're confusing two different arguments. > > >A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is happier [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > > > Dik Cats are so varied in their personalities that it is difficult to say how many are happier inside than out. One of our cats demands to be let out, stays outside for 5 minutes and then demands to be let back in. It happens twice a day, almost predictably. Another sits on the ledge near the front door and can escape faster than a ray of light. She stays gone for days at a time, sometimes. Another tries to make all of the other cats go outside. : -) >OK, let's stick to live cats then. >Which is happier - a free cat in a safe environment or an imprisoned cat in [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >> >> Dik >OK, let's stick to live cats then. Which is happier - a free cat in a safe environment or an imprisoned cat in an unsafe one ?< Gosh, are you really this dense? This is like talking to a stone wall. It's not about the happiness of live cats. It's about cats who gets run over by cars, and died. It's about your claim about the alledged happiness of dead cats, and your denial that they would be better off being indoor and living instead. I think it is better to sheltered cats from danger so that they can live. You think that they should be exposed to danger because that's what they want, even if it kills them. You have the right to believe that; but you need to be forthright about your belief.. >No, I think people living in unsafe environments shouldn't be allowed to adopt cats at all. You're trying to win this argument with stupid and melodramatic scenarios. Ain't working, sonny.< This is not about an argument. This isn't a game, as you think. It's about the reality and what is in the best interest of cats. There are numerous cats in animal pounds in urban areas. You don't think people living in this area should rescue these cats from the pounds, because you don't think these people should have cats. If these cats are not adopted they would be left in the pounds, be caged, and euthanized. Isn't this the very scenerio you decry as selfish? I think that these cats should be rescued, shielded from danger and live in homes of loving humans, and be tended to. You don't. If you are indeed a cat lover, I am unsure why you want to leave these cats to languish in the pounds, or be exposed to dangerous rush hour traffic. Where is your sense of compassion for these cats? Are their well-being not more important than your winning an argument? Dik >> >But you're confusing two different arguments. >> >A live cat is happier than a dead cat, but a free and live cat is happier [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >> >> Dik Those of us who aren't as intelligent as you would appreciate it if you helped us rather than critisize. You might find out that you are jumping to conclusions. Elucidate. And FFS, don't cut ALL the preceding post Einstein - because guess what ..... people won't know WHO you're responding to. Christ, are people really THIS thick ? > Those of us who aren't as intelligent as you would > appreciate it if you helped us rather than critisize. > You might find out that you are jumping to conclusions. > >OK, let's stick to live cats then. Which is happier - a free cat in a safe > environment or an imprisoned cat in an unsafe one ?< > > Gosh, are you really this dense? This is like talking to a stone wall. It's not > about the happiness of live cats. I think this comment sums up your attitude. There is no law obliging people to keep cats. You are a warped and unintelligent individual. Come back when you've got another brain cell to keep the other one company. It's about cats who gets run over by cars, > and died. It's about your claim about the alledged happiness of dead cats, and > your denial that they would be better off being indoor and living instead. [quoted text clipped - 64 lines] > >> > >> Dik >There is no law obliging people to keep cats.< You are right: people are not obliged to keep cats. Rather, they want to. They see these cats in the pound about to be euthanized, and they want to help, to rescue these cats, to provide comfortable, safe, and loving homes for them. I am sorry that you think what these caring people are doing is wrong, and that these cats are better off being euthanized by the pounds. I guess that reveals a lot about your real feeling toward cats. Dik > >There is no law obliging people to keep cats.< > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > these cats are better off being euthanized by the pounds. I guess that reveals > a lot about your real feeling toward cats. No, it reveals my real feeling towards cat incarceration. > Dik Contact your local shelter - preferrably one that is "no-kill" if you have one, they could possibly help you with getting humane traps. Or contact a kitty rescue group as mentioned in another post. It would be in the cats best interest to be removed and to find a home in the future with people that do want animals. Since the cats are used to being fed in your driveway, it probably would not be too hard to catch them in the traps. The traps are safe and do not harm the animal. > My family and I live in an Orange County suburb. We are not pet > owners. There are hundreds of stray cats in our community, but many > hang about our house. This is the result of dry foods left in our > carport our well-meaning but bothersome neighbors. The cats, I > suppose, were the semi-adopted pets of the previous occupants of our > home. So now, they're either accustomed to eating in our driveway or > just feel that they belong here. That alone wouldn't bother us. But > at least two of the cats have taken to hanging about our front door, > and one has made several impressive attempts to enter our house. > > So here's the problem: We have no intention of hurting these animals. > We also don't want to have them taken from an area that they feel is > their home. It just wouldn't be fair. However, we have chosen not to > be pet owners for a reason. So what's the solution? Am I understanding correctly that a couple of these cats are actually tame and one has tried to come indoors? It obviously was abandoned by an unthinking owner. I wonder if the person that is leaving food, is also doing some spaying and neutering? At any rate, I can't think of any advice to offer offhand, but I want to thank you for not harming these unfortunate victims of human irresponsibility. Carol > Contact your local shelter - preferrably one that is "no-kill" if you have > one, they could possibly help you with getting humane traps. Or contact a [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > their home. It just wouldn't be fair. However, we have chosen not to > > be pet owners for a reason. So what's the solution? > My family and I live in an Orange County suburb. We are not pet > owners. There are hundreds of stray cats in our community, but many [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > their home. It just wouldn't be fair. However, we have chosen not to > be pet owners for a reason. So what's the solution? talk to the neighbors, too. the cats probably have other friendly places and the neighbor might be willing to take on more responsibility knowing that the previous owner is no longer there to be the main caretaker. Good luck. |
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