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Cat Forum / General Topics / June 2007Help, my cat is a serial killer!
My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody lifeless bird in my living room (and the room full of feathers!) Or a lizard. Or a mouse. Or these really weird worms that are not snails or slugs, but look like snails without their shell. He also brings in these really huge grasshoppers and then torture them to death, leaving large insect carcasses throughout the house. It's like living with a feline serial murderer! Occasionally, I'll catch him as he's bringing in his captive still alive and as yet unharmed. So I'll give him a stern NO, take it from his mouth, and carry it outside to release it. This kind of pisses him off, but I'm not sure what else to do. I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas? -Garret garret at garretswayne dot com > My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey > that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -Garret > garret at garretswayne dot com Do you realize that this is a normal behavior for a cat. Bringing you a prize is a honor and a sign of affection. Also many animals do this when they have not been properly show by the parent how to kill. If this is really bothering you keep the cat inside Cats and other animals are predators you can't take the hunting instinct out of an animal it will always be there Per Matthew: > Bringing you a >prize is a honor and a sign of affection. Also many animals do this when >they have not been properly show by the parent how to kill. When our ex-feral cat is torturing some small creature and it sees me coming, it takes one glance, grabs the thing, and takes off. Same with dead things. No honor or affection there, I guess.  SignaturePeteCresswell > My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home > prey that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -Garret > garret at garretswayne dot com >> You could put a liberator collar on him though that won't help with slugs and things. http://www.liberators.com.au/ Cats are hunters so is natural for them to bring their prey home. Alison >> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home >> prey that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Cats are hunters so is natural for them to bring their prey home. > Alison Yes. At least mine puts the bodies on the floor somewhere. (usually the bathroom floor) I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on his pillow........:^) Per William Graham: >I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on >his pillow Which begs a question: anybody have any idea why our animal should eat the legs and tails of mice and leave the rest of the body? SignaturePeteCresswell Love to eat them mousies Mousie's what I love to eat. Bite they little heads off Nibble on they tiny feet. -- B. Kliban Signatureie ride fast, take chances. > Per William Graham: >>I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > should eat the legs and tails of mice and leave the rest of the > body? >Yes. At least mine puts the bodies on the floor somewhere. (usually the >bathroom floor) I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on >his pillow........:^) One of the defining moments of my teen years was when our cat brought my mother a bird. It was 30 years ago and I still remember her over-reaction even though she had had cats in her life since girlhood. >>Yes. At least mine puts the bodies on the floor somewhere. (usually the >>bathroom floor) I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > my mother a bird. It was 30 years ago and I still remember her > over-reaction even though she had had cats in her life since girlhood. Yeah...I'm always afraid I will insult them if I don't show pleasure....After all, they are giving you a gift to pay you back for all the food you give them....When you go to the supermarket, I figure they think you are out hunting....And then, when they get something for you, if you just throw it away, they think they're worthless. (I always give them credit for thinking like we do, even though I know it's probably not true.) So, I make believe I am happy, and am saving it for later...... on 17/06/2007, William Graham supposed : >>>Yes. At least mine puts the bodies on the floor somewhere. (usually the >>>bathroom floor) I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > them....When you go to the supermarket, I figure they think you are out > hunting.... I never thought of it like that. SignatureCount Baldoni BALDONI REX ROMANORUM > on 17/06/2007, William Graham supposed : >>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I never thought of it like that. Me either... next time I go shopping and Buddy insists on examining the contents of each bag of groceries perhaps I'll be a bit more lenient... There must be a certain pride in being recognized as a good, strong, courageous hunter. My cat, "B-K" is really a cereal killer....He loves to lap up the sweetened milk from the bottom of our cereal bowls..........You can see photos of my cats here: http://www.thebicyclingguitarist.net/friends/cat_stories.htm Per William Graham: >You can see photos of my >cats here: http://www.thebicyclingguitarist.net/friends/cat_stories.htm A pleasant read. Thanks. SignaturePeteCresswell William Graham submitted this idea : >>> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey >>> that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > bathroom floor) I had a friend whose cat used to leave the bird's feet on his > pillow........:^) My female cat does all the hunting. My lazy tomcat then stuffs dead mice under the furniture. SignatureCount Baldoni BALDONI REX ROMANORUM Bells reduce the catch - mine's a 7 bell cat > I really want to discourage such behavior. Any ideas? > My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey > that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -Garret > garret at garretswayne dot com Well, at least he doesn't leave their heads in your refrigerator..... You might try getting him some cat toys....Like things dangling from strings that jump around when he pulls on them, for example..... > My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey > that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -Garret > garret at garretswayne dot com Not to be insensitive, but that's what cats do. Cats are some of the most efficient, instinctual, predators, and five thousand years of domestication hasn't tamed that gene. > My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey that he > catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody lifeless bird in my [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > -Garret > garret at garretswayne dot com I use a bell on my Freddy, which helps. Also I don't let him out in the dark or early morning when he's most likely to hunt. Adam Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats. But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to pick up the broken body of a terrified, mortally wounded bird! There are a lot of instincts which we civilized types would like to discourage in our kitty companions! The two suggestions that I found most interesting were: -to stick a bell on Zack's neck to warn the birds of his stealthy approach (This is a practical suggestion I will seriously consider.) -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for it's really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear "ungracious". Now this latter observation, I must say, I can't help but be skeptical about. Is that really true? Or are we just stretching to ascribe "positive" human attributes to our feline buddies, whom we love and cherish? If cats were really "givers" by nature, I'd think they're smart enough to figure out a lot of other things we'd prefer to receive rather than a dead carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that they really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"? And that by my expressing displeasure, I will only encourage more of the offensive behavior? I would think that by praising the animal, that's what would encourage more of the killing behavior! But I'm open to being educated about this, from valid scientific sources. The question I'm really asking is this: Is there any way in the world to teach a cat the concept of compassion? That'd be a nice trick, eh? Like maybe a cat who's been traumatized by a larger predatory animal like a dog or a cayote might be able to develop some sense of identification with the smaller victims they terrorize? No, I'm not suggesting throwing the cat to a pack of cayotes! But I'm wondering, can cats be taught compassion, and if so, how? -Garret > My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey > that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -Garret > garret at garretswayne dot com I have some stray cats in the neighborhood who hang out in my yard, and when the birds come around to eat their food, they just look at them like "eh...you again..ok". My cats indoors, start "chirping" at them. Not sure if they'd know what to do with them if they were allowed out. SignatureA hug a day keeps the blues away :D > Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats. > But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] >> -Garret >> garret at garretswayne dot com > -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for it's > really a "gift" that he's offering me and I don't want to appear [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > carcass! Seriously, is there any scientific research to suggest that they > really are bringing us what they consider a "gift"? I don't think looking at it as a "gift" is the right perpective. As you say, it's too complex a trait to attribute to a cat. Mother cats will bring home kills for the kittens. That may be the basis of the evolution of the instinct. Instincts aren't reasoned, they are built in. Most likely the instinct operates in females even when they don't have kittens and in males even though they don't normally provide food for kittens. After a cat kills it's prey and eats it's fill it is no longer hungry and it's no longer satisfying the hunting instinct. Therefore weaker instincts are going to take over. It's going to return home, why not take the animal with it? It's not a complex behavior, it doesn't require complex motives to operate. We once had a mother cat bring home a full grown pheasant. Small cat, really large bird. >> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for >> it's [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > We once had a mother cat bring home a full grown pheasant. > Small cat, really large bird. Large birds of prey will sometimes kill cats....I had a cat who was almost killed by a large osprey....It swooped down onto my rear deck while the cat was sunning itself, and almost got it....Fortunately, the cat door to our bedroom was right next to the cat, so it escaped inside before the bird could get her......but it was a close call...... >Large birds of prey will sometimes kill cats....I had a cat who was almost >killed by a large osprey....It swooped down onto my rear deck while the cat >was sunning itself, and almost got it....Fortunately, the cat door to our >bedroom was right next to the cat, so it escaped inside before the bird >could get her......but it was a close call...... Isn't this what we call "pay-back"? Isn't that what happens to the weakerof the food chain? : >> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for : >> it's [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] : bedroom was right next to the cat, so it escaped inside before the bird : could get her......but it was a close call...... I live in Florida, so I see ospreys on a daily basis. Sure, I'd hate to tangle with one if I were a cat, but these birds aren't any larger than 5 pounds or so. I have a hard time believing that an osprey could subdue your average housecat. Kaarl Hungus explained : >>>> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for >>>> it's [quoted text clipped - 43 lines] > pounds or so. I have a hard time believing that an osprey could subdue your > average housecat. We got foxes near us but to the best of my knowledge they have not attacked any of the cats. SignatureCount Baldoni > : >> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for > : >> it's [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] > your > average housecat. This bird looked larger than that to me, but I didn't get a really good look at it....I heard the thump as it hit the wooden floor of out rear deck, and when I looked out, the cat was high-tailing it through the cat door, and the bird was taking off again.....Perhaps it was an eagle....I'm not a bird watcher, so I have problems identifying them....We live about a half mile from the river (Willamette) so we get a lot of ospreys........ Per William Graham: >This bird looked larger than that to me, but I didn't get a really good look >at it....I heard the thump as it hit the wooden floor of out rear deck, and >when I looked out, the cat was high-tailing it through the cat door, and the >bird was taking off again.....Perhaps it was an eagle....I'm not a bird >watcher, so I have problems identifying them....We live about a half mile >from the river (Willamette) so we get a lot of ospreys........ One of my daughters says that an owl got one of her cats. Dunno what she bases that assertion on, but they're farmers and pretty well in tune with what/who is going on around their land. SignaturePeteCresswell William Graham formulated the question : >> : >> -to not react with anger or displeasure at the sight of his kill, for >> : >> it's [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > watcher, so I have problems identifying them....We live about a half mile > from the river (Willamette) so we get a lot of ospreys........ Where I live it is not unusual to see crows chase the buzzards ! SignatureCount Baldoni "Baldoni @googlemail.com>" <baldoniXXV<nil> wrote in message > Where I live it is not unusual to see crows chase the buzzards ! Yes....Smaller, more maneuverable birds will frequently harass hawks which are larger and less able to defend themselves in the air. > Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats. > But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > -Garret My cat was traumatized by a dog when she was a little bitty and shows no mercy to anything smaller than her - including my hand. So it might have to be assaulted by something smaller to realize that brawn doesn't always work. Just sayin'.... Kathy > Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats. > But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > encourage more of the killing behavior! But I'm open to being educated > about this, from valid scientific sources. Cats are social animals; they're not pack hunters, but they are social animals. Feral and semi-feral colonies have been videotaped; females share prey with their offspring and with their sisters. They not only babysit but actually nurse each other's kittens. Even the males, who rove more, will sometimes share prey with the resident females. When we bring cats into our homes, we make ourselvs part of their "colony," their social grouping. And they respond to us in some ways as if they were our kittens, in some ways as if we were their kittens, in some ways as if we were their siblings. Sharing prey is a normal and natural part of that. And no, even though sharing is normal for them and they are bringing us a gift when they bring us prey, they are not smart enough to figure out that it's not the kind of "gift" we want--nor would they have much ability to bring us a different kind of gift even if they did figure it out. It's not like they can take their American Express card and pick up something nice at Nordstrom's, after all. What they do is hunt, and they share with us what they catch. It _should_ give you a warm glow. It's too bad Zack has apparently focused on birds as his preferred prey, rather than rodents. You do want to prevent or discourage that, if you can. Keep him indoors, or put bells on his collar. > The question I'm really asking is this: Is there any way in the world to > teach a cat the concept of compassion? That'd be a nice trick, eh? Like [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > a pack of cayotes! But I'm wondering, can cats be taught compassion, and if > so, how? No, you can't teach your cat compassion for members of its natural prey species. They're cats, the most efficient predators on the planet (number of species killed, number of individuals killed, hunting success rate--cats are deadly hunters.) Sharing with colony members is part of their repertoire; compassion for prey species is not. A cat traumatized by a larger predator will not feel any sense of identification with its own prey; it will just be a traumatized cat. The most effective way of preventing your cat from killing the local bird population is by keeping him indoors. If that's not practical, put bells on his collar, and that will reduce his success rate. Lis >> Well thanks for all the comments. I know hunting is an instinct in cats. >> But really, that doesn't make me feel any better about it when I have to [quoted text clipped - 76 lines] > > Lis Yes....Our cats think of the raccoons we feed as part of the family, but then, the raccoons are big enough to take care of themselves, and so it's really the raccoons who don't kill the cats that I should be talking about. The birds, even though we feed them, are considered fair game by the cats....fortunately, the cats aren't fast enough to kill very many of them.....I can only remember about three or four birds total in over 10 years, and we have fed many thousands of birds all Winter during that same time period, so the birds are way ahead....We are careful to hang the bird feeders out of the reach of the cats......Well fed cats aren't very good at hunting.....It's not a matter of life and death for them, so they just play at it.....It's significant that our feral cat never hunts for birds (or anything else) at all. He has become totally dependent on our cat food, and couldn't care less if he never had to hunt for anything again. I doubt if you could teach your cats compassion....They have identified over 100 different sounds cats make to communicate, and compassion is not one of them....... > My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home prey > that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > -Garret > garret at garretswayne dot com I just read through this thread and the ignorance just amazes me. Read the following and then do the right thing and keep your cat indoors where it belongs. http://www.wildliferescueleague.org/cats.html http://www.abcbirds.org/cats/ Dave >> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home >> prey that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a bloody [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Dave I have read your articles, and I disagree 100%. Cats were created to roam, and I wouldn't keep one locked up indoors on a bet. Not only that, but if "100's of millions of birds" are killed every year by cats, there must be trillions of cats out there with no food to eat.....My four cats haven't killed 1/2 dozen birds in the last 10 years. For one thing, birds are very hard to kill....Snakes, lizards and field mice are much easier, and even the feral cat lived on mice and voles for the first couple of years of his life before we started feeding him. But, when you get right down to it, birds are very low on the order of life, and they are among the most heartless living things in existence. I couldn't care less how many birds that my cats kill, to tell the truth. Have you ever seen a bunch of chickens peck one of their number to death? - If you had, you would gain a vastly different perspective on birds. Sure, they are pretty....Some of them are downright beautiful. But that doesn't make them any more compassionate than any other animal.... Your article greatly exaggerates the number of birds that fall prey to outside cats.....It only serves as an excuse for teenagers (or those with a teenage mentality) to kill cats. >>> My cat Zacky is an indoor/outdoor cat, and he's forever bringing home >>> prey that he catches. Every week or so, I'll come home and find a [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > outside cats.....It only serves as an excuse for teenagers (or those with > a teenage mentality) to kill cats. You're a moron. Only good thing about youor cats being outside is they get to get away from you. Dave "Dave F" <davegf@home.com> wrote in message > > birds. Sure, they are pretty....Some of them are downright beautiful. But > > that doesn't make them any more compassionate than any other animal.... > You're a moron. Only good thing about youor cats being outside is they get > to get away from you. Then I must be a moron too. Much as I've disagreed with William in the past, I have little disregard for birds too aside from the insects they might eat. Try going down to the islands in Toronto sometime and see how long it takes you to lose any consideration for birds. Trekking out to a picnic table with the family means walking very carefully through the goose sh.t. And don't forget to bring all the cleansers and paper towel, because the picnic table will be saturated. They should all be shot, cooked and fed to the homeless population in the city. Sitting out at your picnic table for a few seconds means you'll get covered in pigeon sh.t. They're nothing more than flying diapers. Any chance of enjoying the outdoors will inevitably be ruined in minutes by birds. For the first ten years in my apartment, the balcony was virtually unusable because of the pigeon sh.t. Cleaning the balcony meant one day of usage and then be prepared to clean again. Birds of all types should be hunted, shot, poisoned and everything else that gets rid of them. So yeah, I'm a moron too. Per Upscale: >Then I must be a moron too. And add Yours Truly to the list of morons... SignaturePeteCresswell Upscale expressed precisely : > "Dave F" <davegf@home.com> wrote in message >>> birds. Sure, they are pretty....Some of them are downright beautiful. But [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Birds of all types should be hunted, shot, poisoned and everything else that > gets rid of them. So yeah, I'm a moron too. Maybe your country could do with a good dose of bird flu. We were expecting it but I think the authorities were over reacting to something they knew little about. In the UK our problem is the gray squirrel but it is to late to do anything about it now. SignatureCount Baldoni BALDONI REX ROMANORUM Per Baldoni-XXV <baldoniXXV<nil>@googlemail.com>: >Maybe your country could do with a good dose of bird flu. We were >expecting it but I think the authorities were over reacting to >something they knew little about. It's still out there and the bomb is still ticking. Every 30-40 years, right? If it won't be H5N1, it will be something else. SignaturePeteCresswell > Upscale expressed precisely : >> "Dave F" <davegf@home.com> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > In the UK our problem is the gray squirrel but it is to late to do > anything about it now. The world is full of creatures, and for every species, there is a champion who will do what they can do to help that species survive as much as possible.....I happen to like cats....I don't catch and kill birds for them, but I do feed them chopped, roasted chicken, as well as eating it myself. If somebody wants to worry about birds, that's their right, but I will object and fight back if they try to hurt my cats, and/or make their lives miserable. - That's my right, too. The number of birds that my cats catch and kill is miniscule. It is not enough to spend any time worrying about. Far more birds are dying due to environmental pollution and habitat destruction... You're a moron. Only good thing about youor cats being outside is they get > to get away from you. > > Dave I am amazed and astounded by your incredible ability to argue your point....You must have been the capitan of your debating team in college. Your ability to discuss this issue is almost as good as your ability to evaluate statistics such as the, "millions of birds" that fall victim to cats every year. Have you considered running for president? If not, then I suggest you think seriously about it. This nation needs leadership that is capable of such brilliant perspicasity and imagination. [snip] > I just read through this thread and the ignorance just > amazes me. Read the following and then do the right thing > and keep your cat indoors where it belongs. Sigh.. PLEASE let's not start this argument again. Cats are not naturally indoor animals. No animals are. Ivor > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Sigh.. PLEASE let's not start this argument again. Cats are not naturally > indoor animals. No animals are. They are domesticated, you flaming f.cking idiot, and belong indoors now, unless you want them to have short miserable lives. I had a bonehead friend who was as stupid as you are. She let her cat outside in a busy city and never saw him again. I had no sympathy for her, especially after the ignorant bitch said that she would rather him have a short lifespan and go outside than a long lifespan and stay in. My indoor cats are so happy. Happy and fiesty and SAFE. They sit in the screened windows and enjoy the birds and squirrels and chipmunks and bugs and rabbits that would not be there if they went out. They never try to get out. They have caught two mice that came in, but they didn't eat them, why should they, cat food is easier? So they didn't get any disease the mice happened to carry. It's 2007. It's not safe outside for ANYONE, but particularly not for creatures with little cat brains. Take your cats to a shelter. They are better off there. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Take your cats to a shelter. They are better off there. Don't bother with these "things". They are incapable of understanding even the most basic science/fact, such as domesticated cats not being a native species, and why it's so horribly wrong for the human animal to suddenly dump millions of these poor cats outdoors. I gave them the links which explains it all in detail, and their responses were absolutely ridiculous. Dave > Don't bother with these "things". Now, now, Dave. Isn't that a little harsh? After all, stump stupid, irresponsible a.sholes are people too. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com "Dave F" <davegf@home.com> wrote in message > species, and why it's so horribly wrong for the human animal to suddenly > dump millions of these poor cats outdoors. I gave them the links which > explains it all in detail, and their responses were absolutely ridiculous. It's idiots like you with your stunted brain power that don't have the facility to reason. There's millions and millions of cats who spend their total lives indoors with their owners who happen to live in apartments. They're happy, healthy and playful animals. But Wait! Along comes the brain dead who think it's against nature and all cats should be allowed to be outside. What EXACTLY would you have all those millions of cat owners do with these indoor cats? Think about it. If these cats weren't owned and loved by people living in apartments, then they'd be outside, caught and euthanized by the animal shelters overflowing with felines. There's already way too many cats for the amount of people willing to adopt them, but even so, flakes like you would have all those cats be put outside to fight, be injured or killed, definitely live shorter lives, and/or be euthanized by animal shelters. Does that make any sense to you? Instead of mouthing off with your emotions to drive you, state how these cats might exist outside without experiencing the inevitable difficulty and quick death that would come their way by being outside. Until you can do that with some sense of logic, then you really have absolutely nothing to say. >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Take your cats to a shelter. They are better off there. What's boneheaded is to believe that everyone lives in the same place, and/or under the same circumstances.....My cousin used to own half interest in Souvereign Vineyards in Northern California...She had a huge grape farm....She kept three or four huge Siamese cats that she didn't feed, so they had to live off of the birds they could catch in the orchard. They were lean and mean, but they still enjoyed human company, because they would rest about 20 yards or so from the porch on my cousin's house when they weren't hunting. The very idea that she could and/or would make these "indoor cats" in ridiculous....They were working cats, and that's how they paid for their keep....By killing birds, and keeping them off the grapes. On the other hand, I had a girl friend who lived on a busy street corner in San Francisco. She had two cats that never went outside. If they did, they would probably have been run down in short order by the Geary Street traffic. It happens that cybercat formulated : >> [snip] >> [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> Sigh.. PLEASE let's not start this argument again. Cats are not naturally >> indoor animals. No animals are. > It's 2007. It's not safe outside for ANYONE, but particularly > not for creatures with little cat brains. > > Take your cats to a shelter. They are better off there. My cat's would make my life hell if I tried to keep them indoors. One stays indoors a lot these days. My other cat sleeps all day and plays hell if I don't let him out at night. SignatureCount Baldoni BALDONI REX ROMANORUM > > [snip] > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > They are domesticated, you flaming f.cking idiot, and > belong indoors now, unless you want them to have short miserable lives. Ah. Foul language. The last resort of those who know they've lost the argument. <plonk> Ivor > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ivor To me, it depends on where you live, and the circumstances....I have known many who lived in a big city, and who had perfectly fine indoor cats that were happy and lived long, healthy lives. But in my case, I live on the edge of town, and most of my cats found me, rather than my finding them. They simply wandered in one day and liked the smell of my food, so they elected to stay. It is neither my right, nor my desire to trap them inside my house. They have the whole world to wander in, and I don't intend to restrict that freedom. If they are cold and/or hungry, then I am there for them. Otherwise, they can come and go as they please. For sure, I am not going to restrict their activities because they might kill some bird or frog or any other creature....I am not God. I didn't create this screwed-up world. All I try to do is make it as easy as possible for the creatures I like. It's true that I could make it easier for the birds if I didn't take care of cats. but somewhere on the order of life, one has to stop caring. I could save millions of bacteria by not walking on the sidewalk, too. So, we worry about the creatures we like, and sacrifice those we don't care about. I could care less for birds....I'm sorry, but they are too far down on the order of things for me to worry about. That's just the way it is...... I might add that society seems to agree with me. There is no law that restricts cats to the property as it does dogs. Birds are considered by the society to be far enough down on the order of things to not deserve that kind of protection....If they are stupid enough to be caught by cats, then they "deserve" to die, according to the law. When will everyone learn that the inside - outside debate will never be solved. It can not be argued, debated, discussed without both sides turning it to a shoving match. Just as it has once again in this thread. Everyone has their opinion no one can changed another persons mind when it comes to this subject. Why everyone in general tries at all is beyond me. Plus than can't wait to try and prove their point There are 3 things that are never to be discussed Sex, Religion and Politics Now there is a fourth the inside outside debate. When will you all learn it is always started by some newbie or a troll ( not that this person was or is ). It is like someone has poured a 55 gallon barrel of gas on a huge pile of garbage. Than here comes this pyromaniac with a wide eyed kid in a candy store look can't wait to throw a match on it and see it burn "Matthew" <Iamacatslave@proudtoserve.com> wrote in message news:46787d11$0$4729> There are 3 things that are never to be discussed Sex, Religion and > Politics Now there is a fourth the inside outside debate. The inside/outside cats debate is really a subdivision of politics, so I wouldn't give it it's own category....And, if I couldn't discuss religion, sex or politics on these forums, then I wouldn't want to be here at all....There isn't anything more important or interesting for me to want to discuss......After all, what could be more fun than trying to teach physics to Rosie O'Donnell? > "Matthew" <Iamacatslave@proudtoserve.com> wrote in message > news:46787d11$0$4729> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > to discuss......After all, what could be more fun than trying to teach > physics to Rosie O'Donnell? I can see your point but it deserves it own category due to how much trouble it causes Rosie already knows Physics she sees it in the mirror every day ;-) >> "Matthew" <Iamacatslave@proudtoserve.com> wrote in message >> news:46787d11$0$4729> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Rosie already knows Physics she sees it in the mirror every day ;-) Yes....It has been suggested to me that I join and post to a political newsgroup....but I have found that the huge number of stupid posters on those groups is so overwhelming that they aren't any fun....IOW, there are too few people there that can stick to a rational argument and not revert to dumb name calling if they can't answer my points. They all seem to have a "Rosie O'Donnell" mentality....Religion is even worse. My atheism is the only rational viewpoint, and the religious just parrot whatever lies they have been told, and can't stick to a rational argument. Also, they all have an ax to grind.....They are duty bound to convince me that I am wrong, because it gives them points toward getting into heaven, but I gain nothing by convincing them that I am right, so what's the point?
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