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feeding a diabetic cat

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Angio - 10 Mar 2004 01:41 GMT
Hi, i'm a first timer here.

Our tubby boy, Joel, has been a diagnosed diabetic for about 6 months.
He gets 4 units of insulin a day and the doc has him on W/D food. He
is 14 y/o and about 17 lbs.

Do you guys know of any other food besides W/D to put him on? We have
4 cats and they go thru a big bag in <2 weeks and its starting to get
expensive!  Also it seems like he (and another kid) vomits the w/d
more than with the other food. We had all the kids on science diet or
iams (for weight loss) in the past.

Any suggestions appreciated. thanks!
zuzu22@webtv.net - 10 Mar 2004 03:37 GMT
>Do you guys know of any other food
>besides W/D to put him on? We have 4
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>or iams (for weight loss) in the past.
>Any suggestions appreciated. thanks!

Diabetic cats should NOT be fed dry food *at all* as it is full of
carbs, which is the last thing a diabetic cat needs to ingest (it's no
surprise that you are going through a lot of this food as it is high in
grains which cats can't process well, so most of it just comes out the
other end.) You should be feeding him a canned food with very few carbs,
and feeding on a 12 hour schedule making sure he eats *before* giving
his insulin. The Wellness brand canned varieties would be an excellent
choice as they not only have a low carb content, but they are also lower
in calories than most canned foods and your cat will lose the excess
weight.

If you are not testing your cat's blood sugar at home, you should be,
especially since changing to a canned food may result in your cat
needing less insulin, so it is VERY important to monitor him closely to
see any changes in BG levels and avoid giving him too much insulin.

You should also read this article which gives a good overview on why a
canned diet is better for cats:
http://www.avma.org/convention/recap/news/tuesday16.asp

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

zuzu22@webtv.net - 10 Mar 2004 15:37 GMT
Apparently the article I posted a link to has been moved, so I'll print
it here:

The 'CatKins' diet
   The feline diet: a historical look

When trying to develop a diet for cats, look no further than what a cat
would eat in the wild: mice. Cats shouldn't be eating foods that they
have difficulty processing, according to Dr. Deborah Greco, a
veterinarian at the Animal Medical Center in New York City.

This internal medicine specialist, who spoke at a Sunday session, isn't
arguing that pet owners should be shopping for mice to please Fluffy.
Rather, they should be thinking about the nutrition in a mouse—a mouse
is 3 percent carbohydrate, 40 percent protein, and 50 percent fat.

Since cats became domesticated, they have been fed various diets, and
some of these diets were developed with little thought as to their
natural diet in the wild. The result hasn't been good. "Many of the
diseases that we treat are a result of the diets we give them," said Dr.
Greco, who rattled off several examples.

Before the advent of commercial diets, owners fed cats organ meats that
are low in calcium and high in phosphorus. This led to nutritional
secondary hyperparathyroidism. In the 1980s, scientists linked a high
incidence of struvite stones to high pH levels in food. And in the
1990s, scientists found that feeding acidifying diets to cats with
struvite stones lead to an increased incidence of oxalate stones. Diets
were reformulated to a more neutral pH. "The ideal pH is 6.5," says Dr
Greco, which is the pH found in a mouse.

Also in the late 1980s, scientists traced a high incidence of dilated
cardiomyopathy to taurine deficiency, and other researchers found that
certain diets low in potassium caused hypokalemic nephropathy. Each
time, nutritionists had to go back to the drawing board.

Today, cats are facing a different problem: an epidemic of obesity that
comes with a price tag. "Thirty-five to 40 percent of cats are obese,"
said Dr. Greco, who says the peak years of obesity is between the ages
of seven to 12 years.

"Obese cats are four times as likely to develop diabetes mellitus and
five times as likely to develop lameness." Fat cats also have a higher
incidence of non-allergic skin disease, most likely caused by the cat's
inability to clean themselves as effectively, due to their size. This
obesity is most likely the cause of diets with too high a carbohydrate
content.

"Cats are unique in the way they handle protein, carbohydrates, and
fat," Dr. Greco said. Cats are strict carnivores and, because of this,
they have a tremendous ability to produce glucose from protein, but have
difficulty processing carbohydrates. The feline liver has normal
hexokinase activity, but no glucokinase activity. Thus, cats are limited
in their ability to mop up excess glucose and store glycogen. "What
happens is that glucose is going to hang around for a long period of
time," she said, and it eventually becomes fat.

In addition, unlike humans, protein is the stimulus for insulin release
in cats. Cats have adapted to high protein diets by being insulin
resistant. This maintains blood glucose during periods of fasting,
convenient for a cat in the wild, but not so good for pets eating a lot
of carbohydrates.

"When you take an individual that is genetically programmed to consume
high protein and low carbohydrates, and you put them on a high
carbohydrate diet, what happens is their insulin resistance works
against them," she said. "Their blood glucose concentrations are too
high ... they can't overcome that, and they start to release more and
more insulin in an attempt to reduce blood glucose levels." This doesn't
work, however, and the cat eventually develops type 2 diabetes mellitus.
The cat gets amyloid deposition in the pancreas, exhaustion of the
pancreatic cells, and glucose toxicity from consumption of large amounts
of carbohydrates.

So what's Dr. Greco's ideal cat food diet? She recommends a wet food,
high in protein, high in fat, and low in carbohydrates. It's basically a
"CatKins" diet, much like the Atkins diet popular today. This diet is
going to keep a cat slim and help it avoid diabetes.

She recommends a wet cat food because if you are trying to mimic what a
cat eats in the wild, just think of how much water a mouse contains. Wet
cat food is going to give you a pH that is ideal and is, thus, the best
way to prevent feline lower urinary tract inflammation. Dr. Greco said.
In addition, a cat's jaws and teeth are designed for shearing and
tearing meat, and cats that eat dry food grind it in a way that it ends
up between their teeth. There it ferments into sugar and acid, thereby
causing dental problems.

According to Dr. Greco, it all comes down to common sense. "We must use
a cat's natural diet as a guideline."

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Ze alluring ailurophile - 10 Mar 2004 21:12 GMT
>Subject: Re: feeding a diabetic cat
>From: zuzu22@webtv.net
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>grains which cats can't process well, so most of it just comes out the
>other end.)

That's actually incorrect. Hills Prescription Diet makes a dry food specially
catered to diabetics, and they are currently working on a better brand. My cat
has been on the Hill W/D diet for a year, and the vet told me that his
bloodwork is perfect, that he's an extremely healthy diabetic, one of the
healthiest she's seen.

You also have to take into account the type of diabetes the cat has. One with
the uncomplicated form may do better on dry.

You should be feeding him a canned food with very few carbs,
>and feeding on a 12 hour schedule making sure he eats *before* giving
>his insulin.

My vet recommends small food intake periodically throughout the day. By waiting
12 hours for the cat to eat, you risk a sugar crash!!!  Also, it really doesn't
matter if he eats right before his shot, as it takes a few hours for the
insulin to get into the system.

The Wellness brand canned varieties would be an excellent
>choice as they not only have a low carb content, but they are also lower
>in calories than most canned foods and your cat will lose the excess
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
>- W.H. Murray
zuzu22@webtv.net - 10 Mar 2004 23:16 GMT
> That's actually incorrect.

No, it's not. Garbage in, gabage out. If you feed a cat something it has
difficulty processing, such as high amounts of carbs, they will need to
eat more and you will see more poop. Many years ago I fed Science Diet
until I did research and found out it's crap and that there were many
better foods. Feeding high quality foods with fewer carbs resulted in a
30% drop in my cats' food intake yet they maintained their weight and
looked much better.

>Hills
> Prescription Diet makes a dry food
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> extremely healthy diabetic, one of the
> healthiest she's seen.

He's still diabetic, so he's not healthy. If you were to get him on a
high protein low carb canned diet the chances are good that he will need
less insulin. I have witnessed cats go off of insulin completely with a
change in diet to canned only.

> You also have to take into account the
> type of diabetes the cat has. One with
> the uncomplicated form may do better on
> dry.

Not true. Dry is the worst thing you can feed a diabetic cat. Read the
article I posted and you'll see why.

>> You should be feeding him a canned food
>> with very few carbs,
>> and feeding on a 12 hour schedule making
>> sure he eats *before* giving his
>> insulin.

> My vet recommends small food intake
> periodically throughout the day. By
> waiting 12 hours for the cat to eat, you
> risk a sugar crash!!!

Not if you are properly monitoring your cat.

>Also, it really
> doesn't matter if he eats right before
> his shot, as it takes a few hours for
> the insulin to get into the system.

It *absolutely matters* !!! Most people work and aren't around all day
to make sure their cat eats enough. A free fed cat could be not eating
for a day or longer before someoe notices and what happens if a cat that
doesn't eat gets insulin? He crashes! A cat fed on a schedule will
always show up and eat unless it's sick, and if it is sick you know
right away, not later after you find him dead after going hypo because
he wasn't eating or not eating enough. When you feed on a schedule you
know exactly how much your cat is eating and when.

You're also not taking into account the fact that insulin works a
certain way and feeding the cat in between changes the action. You want
to try to keep his levels consistent and allowing him to eat whenever he
wants to interferes with that and will ensure that this does not happen.
When a curve is run the cat is fed *one* meal and then blood is tested
generally every two hours to see how the insulin works, when it peaks
and how long it acts for. Feeding in between will result in an
inaccurate curve.

If you were to change your cat's diet to a low carb canned food and feed
him on a schedule (closely montoring him with home testing) my guess is
his BG levels would be lower and his insulin needs would be reduced.
That's what an owner of a diabetic cat should be striving for.  

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Ze alluring ailurophile - 18 Mar 2004 20:53 GMT
>Subject: Re: feeding a diabetic cat
>From: zuzu22@webtv.net
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>30% drop in my cats' food intake yet they maintained their weight and
>looked much better.

I was at the vet's office yesterday and asked about this. He said that it is
absolutely not a good idea to feed a cat a dry only diet, and go 12 hours in
between feedings when they are diabetic. he also stated he knew of no recent
studies that were taken seriously in regards to this theory.

>>Hills
>> Prescription Diet makes a dry food
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>less insulin. I have witnessed cats go off of insulin completely with a
>change in diet to canned only.

Again, my vet does not recommend this as being healthy.

>> You also have to take into account the
>> type of diabetes the cat has. One with
[quoted text clipped - 46 lines]
>
>Megan

My cat is fed 1/4 can W/D wet food in am, and a small spoonful at suppertime,
and with pm shot. He has free range W/D dry left out all day. His urine glucose
has been normal daily for over a year, and every glucose curve he's gone in for
has gone extremely well. I periodically drop off urine samples at the vet to
check for bacteria, and no glucose has been present.

                               

>"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
>nothing."
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
>- W.H. Murray
zuzu22@webtv.net - 19 Mar 2004 05:58 GMT
Ze alluring ailurophile wrote:
<snip>
First you say your vet says a dry food diet is bad, then you say he says
a canned food diet is bad. Maybe should read your post before you hit
the send button and stop the confusion before it starts.

Your vet obviously doesn't know what he's talking about and is stuck in
the old way of thinking. My guess is he is an older vet that's been in
practice for a long time, but hasn't bothered to get any continuing
education. Just because he has credentials doesn't mean he is competent.
He wants to pour carbs into a cat that's diabetic. Where's the sense in
that? Why do you want to put more strain on your poor cat's already
compromised pancreas? Why won't you feed him a species appropriate diet
that is low in carbs and doesn't put such a burden on him?
It's a shame your vet hasn't figured this out either, but there is no
shortage of idiots that have licenses to practice veterinary medicine.
There is a vet here that almost killed a cat (and there are other
victims of his incompetence as well) because he didn't treat its
diabetes correctly. He also hands out a diabetes info sheet that states
"re-use syringes until dull." I about fell over when I saw that one.
Fortunately I was able to intervene and the cat lived, but not before he
was hospitalized in intensive care for 5 days and almost died. He was
put on a canned diet, scheduled meals (every 12 hours) and BG was
monitored at home. He is now completely off of insulin and in great
shape. I know of at least two other people that recently had similar
success doing things this way. I also posted an article from an
*internal medicine specialist* that was specific about why carbs are bad
for cats but it seems you conveniently ignored it.

A canned diet is closest to what a cat would eat in the wild, and
generally contains low amounts of carbs except for a lot of the Hill's
foods which are notoriously high because they put so much crap like corn
in their canned foods. Cats are STRICT CARNIVORES. They have little to
no need for carbs in their diet and feeding them something they have
difficulty processing can lead to serious problems such as *diabetes.*
Read the article. Hopefully you'll learn something and put your cat on
an appropriate diet that will put less strain on him and probably lessen
or possibly eliminate his need for insulin.

Megan.

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Ze alluring ailurophile - 22 Mar 2004 23:13 GMT
>Subject: Re: feeding a diabetic cat
>From: zuzu22@webtv.net
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>a canned food diet is bad. Maybe should read your post before you hit
>the send button and stop the confusion before it starts.

I never said anything but that my vet said a  wet food only diet is bad. I
think you misunderstood.

>Your vet obviously doesn't know what he's talking about and is stuck in
>the old way of thinking.

You know this how? Are you a vet? What veterinary training have you had?
Jumping to insults is not only rude, it makes people dismiss anything further
you have to say.

My guess is he is an older vet that's been in
>practice for a long time, but hasn't bothered to get any continuing
>education.

El wrongo. Again, the insults. He is in his 30's, and is somewhat of a diabetes
specialist. he even has clinics at his office regarding it, where he gives
lectures.

Just because he has credentials doesn't mean he is competent.

Do you have any credentials to prove you are competent in what you are saying?

>He wants to pour carbs into a cat that's diabetic. Where's the sense in
>that? Why do you want to put more strain on your poor cat's already
>compromised pancreas? Why won't you feed him a species appropriate diet
>that is low in carbs and doesn't put such a burden on him?

He is on food specially suited for diabetics. You must have missed that in your
huff.

>It's a shame your vet hasn't figured this out either, but there is no
>shortage of idiots that have licenses to practice veterinary medicine.

Nor is there a shortage of Usenet idiots who fly off the handle in a bizarre
rage if anyone questions their opinion or their facts. There's no need to get
so defensive and rude. It's only a newsgroup. Chill out.

>There is a vet here that almost killed a cat (and there are other
>victims of his incompetence as well) because he didn't treat its
>diabetes correctly. He also hands out a diabetes info sheet that states
>"re-use syringes until dull." I about fell over when I saw that one.

Agreed, that certainly is idiotic.

>Fortunately I was able to intervene and the cat lived, but not before he
>was hospitalized in intensive care for 5 days and almost died. He was
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>*internal medicine specialist* that was specific about why carbs are bad
>for cats but it seems you conveniently ignored it.

Oh, yes....that _must_ be it. Are you this confrontational and vitriolic all
the time?

Now, let me describe something to YOU- I am a veterinary assistant. I work in a
no-kill shelter ( and have for several years, as well as working at a vet's
office for several years) We have had probably about a dozen diabetic cats
there in the past five years. I am partially responsible for doing meds and
feedings. We currently have two cats in honeymoon period- they've been fed dry
and wet food since day one, and one has had his insulin gradually reduced from
7 units 2X daily to 2 U's 2X daily....you guessed it! Same diet.

There just is no "one wayism" regarding this. I'm sorry if that makes you
angry, but that's life. Each cat is different. What may be your limited scope
of experience does not hold true for all other animals. Trust me, I see and
help treat hundreds of cats and dogs a year.

>A canned diet is closest to what a cat would eat in the wild,

What about greens? Are there greens is wet cat food?

and
>generally contains low amounts of carbs except for a lot of the Hill's
>foods which are notoriously high because they put so much crap like corn
>in their canned foods. Cats are STRICT CARNIVORES.

That is wrong. Please explain why cats eat grass and some veggies then. If they
were "strict carnivores" they would not do this. They go after houseplants
alot, because people mistakenly think what you do, and they don't get enough
greens and fiber in their diet.

They have little to
>no need for carbs in their diet and feeding them something they have
>difficulty processing can lead to serious problems such as *diabetes.*
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Megan.

Please, don't respond with such anger anymore. If you can't calmly have a
discussion, I'd rather you didn't reply at all.

>                                    
>
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>- W.H. Murray
zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Mar 2004 17:03 GMT
>>I also posted an article from an *internal
>>medicine specialist* that was specific
>>about why carbs are bad for cats but it
>>seems you conveniently ignored it.

>Oh, yes....that _must_ be it. Are you this
>confrontational and vitriolic all the time?

So you admit you didn't read the article as evidenced by your defensive
non-answer.

>Now, let me describe something to YOU-
>I am a veterinary assistant. I work in a
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>past five years. I am partially responsible
>for doing meds and feedings.

"Assisting" and being "partially responsible" are hardly qualifying
points.

>We currently
>have two cats in honeymoon period-
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>2 U's 2X daily....you guessed it! Same
>diet.

And guess what? The chances are good that you could reduce insulin needs
even *more* or eliminate them completely by eliminating the carb filled
dry food.

>There just is no "one wayism" regarding
>this.

Yes, there is. That you refuse to educate yourself and instead blindly
follow the advice of a vet that hasn't educated himself either is
unfortunate.

>I'm sorry if that makes you angry, but
>that's life.

You should be sorry you're not giving your cat the best treatment
possible and making an effort to lower his insulin needs.

>Trust me, I see
>and help treat hundreds of cats and dogs
>a year.

With what you've shown shown so far, trusting you isn't an option. You
"see and help" on an extremely limited basis. Being a veterinary
*assistant* is hardly a credential that proves you know what you're
talking about. Try living with and treating these health issues day in
and day out for *years* with *numerous* animals (I have 24) and then
we'll talk.

>>A canned diet is closest to what a cat
>>would eat in the wild,

>What about greens? Are there greens is
>wet cat food?

Cats don't need greens. Some wet cat foods may contain them, or very
small amounts of fruits and vegetables added for their specific
vitamin/nutrient content. In the wild the only greens/vegetable matter
cats generally consume are those found in the stomach of their prey.
IIRC it averages out to about 3% of their total diet.
  
>>and
>>generally contains low amounts of carbs
>>except for a lot of the Hill's foods which
>>are notoriously high because they put so
>>much crap like corn in their canned foods.
>>Cats are STRICT CARNIVORES.

>That is wrong.

With this single sentence you have proven that, without a doubt, you
have NO idea what you're talking about.
The terms strict carnivore, obligate carnivore, or true carnivore are
all correct in describing cats.

>Please explain why cats eat grass and
>some veggies then. If they were "strict
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>don't get enough greens and fiber in their
>diet.

Your ignorance is astounding. Just because a cat is a strict carnivore
doesn't mean it doesn't occasionally like a certain vegetable or some
grass once in awhile. Feeding a cat a diet high in these things however
is harmful, as I've already explained to you by posting the article
which you apparently refuse to read. An article, BTW, that contains the
words of an *internal medicine specialist* who undoubtedly has far more
qualfications and credentials than your vet. This specialist, along with
anyone with even a minimal scientific knowledge of the nutritional needs
of cats, also maintains that a cat is a strict carnivore. Are you going
to actually have the audacity and ignorance to claim she is wrong?

From the article:

"Cats are unique in the way they handle protein, carbohydrates, and
fat," Dr. Greco said. Cats are strict carnivores and, because of this,
they have a tremendous ability to produce glucose from protein, but have
difficulty processing carbohydrates. The feline liver has normal
hexokinase activity, but no glucokinase activity. Thus, cats are limited
in their ability to mop up excess glucose and store glycogen. "What
happens is that glucose is going to hang around for a long period of
time," she said, and it eventually becomes fat.

In addition, unlike humans, protein is the stimulus for insulin release
in cats. Cats have adapted to high protein diets by being insulin
resistant. This maintains blood glucose during periods of fasting,
convenient for a cat in the wild, but not so good for pets eating a lot
of carbohydrates.

"When you take an individual that is genetically programmed to consume
high protein and low carbohydrates, and you put them on a high
carbohydrate diet, what happens is their insulin resistance works
against them," she said. "Their blood glucose concentrations are too
high ... they can't overcome that, and they start to release more and
more insulin in an attempt to reduce blood glucose levels." This doesn't
work, however, and the cat eventually develops type 2 diabetes mellitus.
The cat gets amyloid deposition in the pancreas, exhaustion of the
pancreatic cells, and glucose toxicity from consumption of large amounts
of carbohydrates.

So what's Dr. Greco's ideal cat food diet? She recommends a wet food,
high in protein, high in fat, and low in carbohydrates. It's basically a
"CatKins" diet, much like the Atkins diet popular today. This diet is
going to keep a cat slim and help it avoid diabetes.

She recommends a wet cat food because if you are trying to mimic what a
cat eats in the wild, just think of how much water a mouse contains. Wet
cat food is going to give you a pH that is ideal and is, thus, the best
way to prevent feline lower urinary tract inflammation. Dr. Greco said.
In addition, a cat's jaws and teeth are designed for shearing and
tearing meat, and cats that eat dry food grind it in a way that it ends
up between their teeth. There it ferments into sugar and acid, thereby
causing dental problems.
According to Dr. Greco, it all comes down to common sense. "We must use
a cat's natural diet as a guideline."

>Please, don't respond with such anger
>anymore. If you can't calmly have a
>discussion, I'd rather you didn't reply at
>all.

Your druthers are of no importance to me. What is important is making
sure "correct" info is posted WRT diabetes treatments and appropriate
foods.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

zuzu22@webtv.net - 23 Mar 2004 17:03 GMT
>I never said anything but that my vet said
>a wet food only diet is bad. I think you
>misunderstood.

No, I didn't, and my point was you should pay attention to what you
write because you totally contradicted yourself.

Your own words:

>I was at the vet's office yesterday and
>asked about this. He said that it is
>absolutely not a good idea to feed a cat a
>dry only diet

And when I said
>>I have witnessed cats go off of insulin
>>completely with a change in diet to
>>canned only.

You said

>Again, my vet does not recommend this
>as being healthy.

Get it now?

>>Your vet obviously doesn't know what
>>he's talking about and is stuck in the old
>>way of thinking.

>You know this how? Are you a vet? What
>veterinary training have you had?

I've been in cat rescue for 25 years, dealt personally with and managed
nearly every health issue under the sun, and have a business taking care
of special needs cats, with the majority of my clientele consisting of
diabetic cats.

>Jumping to insults is not only rude, it
>makes people dismiss anything further
>you have to say.

People really dislike net nannies that don't know what they're talking
about. I said your vet doesn't know what he's talking about. That's not
an insult. It's a fact.

>My guess is he is an older vet that's
>been in practice for a long time, but hasn't
>bothered to get any continuing education.

>El wrongo. Again, the insults.

No, an observation.

>He is in his 30's, and is somewhat of a
>diabetes specialist. he even has clinics at
>his office regarding it, where he gives
>lectures.

This still in no way means he is competent, and the fact he says canned
only diets are bad and promotes pouring carb filled foods into diabetic
cats are huge red flags.

>He is on food specially suited for
>diabetics. You must have missed that in
>your huff.

Not a "huff," but real concern for cats that are being mismanaged by
incompetent vets andannoyance at people like you that post things that
clearly show they don't know what they are talking about and can
potentially put a cat in harms way if someone were stupid enough to
listen to you.
BTW w/d is NOT a food specially suited for diabetics. It's a "weight
loss" diet and is being used for your cat based on old information. D/M
is a food specifically suited and made for diabetic cats and contains
high protein, fat and very little carbs, which *is* an appropriate diet.

Megan

                                   
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zuzu22@webtv.net - 19 Mar 2004 17:09 GMT
Ze alluring ailurophile wrote:

>His urine glucose has been normal daily
>for over a year, and every glucose curve
>he's gone in for has gone extremely well.

Monitoring via urine is not accurate and very limited as far as when and
how often you can do it. The only way you can properly monitor your cat
is by getting a glucometer and testing his blood at home.
Using a glucometer will let you know in an instant at any time during
the day exactly what your cat's BG level is and where it's headed.  You
can keep a log of test results and have a history of trends right at
your fingertips. If your cat were to have a "honeymoon" period (where
the cat starts producing its own insulin) you'll see it coming and
change insulin dosage accordingly instead of finding out after the fact
when you come home to find a dead cat.

You can also do curves at home which are also more accurate as the
stress of being at the vet's often raises the blood sugar level and the
curve reads higher than it would if done at home which might result in
the insulin being increased unnecessarily.

The One Touch Ultra Glucometer is an excellent choice for home
monitoring diabetic cats. It uses a very small blood sample and is easy
to learn to use.

Unfortunately, from what you've posted about your vet so far, my guess
is he doesn't recommend that either. :-(

Megan

                                   
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Ze alluring ailurophile - 22 Mar 2004 23:14 GMT
>Subject: Re: feeding a diabetic cat
>From: zuzu22@webtv.net
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
>Megan

We are doing that.
Ze alluring ailurophile - 10 Mar 2004 21:08 GMT
>Subject: feeding a diabetic cat
>From: aokelly1@netscape.net  (Angio)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>He gets 4 units of insulin a day and the doc has him on W/D food. He
>is 14 y/o and about 17 lbs.

Hi there! I also have a diabetic cat, age 13, on 5 U 2x daily. I also feed my
guy W/D. The vet said that this is the best food, as it helps the cat's body
retain the glucose inside it longer.

>Do you guys know of any other food besides W/D to put him on? We have
>4 cats and they go thru a big bag in <2 weeks and its starting to get
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Any suggestions appreciated. thanks!

Eukanuba makes a food called D/M (diabetes management). It pretty pricey as
well, though. :( I also have 4 cats, and spend about $47 dollars every three
weeks for wet and dry W/D.

What you may want to do is mix the foods together. Get a cheaper brand and put
them together half and half. Of course, ask your vet first. If kitty is
regulated on his insulin really well, a slight change in diet may not effect
him too much. Since they're used to Science Diet, maybe you can introduce that
again.

Is it inconvenient for you to feed the diabetic separately? By that, I mean can
you feed him in another room, and give the other three a less expensive brand (
even when feeding wet food in the a.m., it still might save you a few bucks ).
~*Connie*~ - 10 Mar 2004 23:35 GMT
talk to your vet about felidae..

> Hi, i'm a first timer here.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Any suggestions appreciated. thanks!
Larry - 10 Mar 2004 23:42 GMT
A low-carb diet can help reduce the amount of insulin required.  Typically,
canned food has lower carbs than dry.. The following link gives the carbs of
canned food and has link to similar table for dry.  WD is a relatively
high-carb, high fiber food.  At one time it was thought that high fiber was
good for diabetics.  But now that is not thought.  Both Hills and Purina
make a low carb food for diabetics, one is DM and the other MD.

I feed my diabetic cat canned low-carb with a little dry DM t snack on.

Signature

Larry - Owned by six cats

> Hi, i'm a first timer here.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Any suggestions appreciated. thanks!
 
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