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Cat Forum / General Topics / November 2006Laser Declawing
A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing was better than traditional methods. AFAIK, the end result is the same and leaves the cat maimed for life. Any other opinions? TIA  SignatureWayne Boatwright __________________________________________________ Useless Invention: Solar powered night light. >A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing >was [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > TIA NO!! You are absolutely correct. It is still amputation and (as you said) leaves the cat maimed for life. MaryL Oh pshaw, on Wed 22 Nov 2006 06:05:09p, MaryL meant to say... >>A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing >>was [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > MaryL That was my thought, too. Thanks for the confirmation, Mary. SignatureWayne Boatwright __________________________________________________ Useless Invention: Solar powered night light. In the borning days of the third millennium, Wayne Boatwright wrote: >A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing was >better than traditional methods. It's "better" in the same way that getting your finger cut off in an operating room is better than having it done in the garage. -- Brian Merchant Puritanism didn't keep the puritans from sinning, it just kept them from enjoying it. --Father Joe Breighner, Country Roads > A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing was > better than traditional methods. > > AFAIK, the end result is the same and leaves the cat maimed for life. > > Any other opinions? Go here: http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_declawing_and_its_alternatives.html for what looks to me like a non-biased discussion of laser declawing. If you don't mind your furniture being destroyed, I see no reason to have your cat declawed. I don't know if I'll ever have another cat, but I know I'll never have another cat with claws. How does the cat feel about it? I think the cat would prefer to be adopted and loose it's claws than to die in the shelter. >> A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing >> was [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > I think the cat would prefer to be adopted and loose it's > claws than to die in the shelter. This is ridiculous. I have had cats for 35 years. *All* of them have had their claws (except one that was declawed before I adopted her), and *none* of them have damaged my furniture. All it takes is some patience and a few days of training. There is absolutely no reason why it has to be a question of "claws" or "nice furniture" -- we can have both! MaryL Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'< Duffy: http://tinyurl.com/cslwf Holly: http://tinyurl.com/9t68o Duffy and Holly together: http://tinyurl.com/8b47e > This is ridiculous. I have had cats for 35 years. *All* of them have > had their claws (except one that was declawed before I adopted her), [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > MaryL Amen. >>> A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing >>> was [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > days of training. There is absolutely no reason why it has to be a question > of "claws" or "nice furniture" -- we can have both! I don't think it's ridiculous. I've had cats for much longer than 35 years. Other people are in this thread commenting about keeping this civil, I hope I am. I am not taking your "ridiculous" comment as an insult. I see that as a difference of opinion. If you've figured out how to train a cat, I am very impressed. We have very few restrictions we try to impose on our cat and she is very well behaved. We do not want her on the kitchen table. We yell at her, chase her, do every thing we can to keep her off the table. There is nothing up there for her anyway. Does that stop her from going up there? No way. She knows very well she shouldn't go on the table, she will run when she sees us coming, but if no one is around up she goes. So my experience says cats can not be trained, at least by me, especially for something as instinctive as scratching. The article I posted a link for discusses training. I agree with the article more than I agree with "All it takes is some patience and a few days of training". >>>> A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser >>>> declawing [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > I agree with the article more than I agree with > "All it takes is some patience and a few days of training". I realize I reacted harshly, but I have seen the results of declawing. Approximately 1/3 of cats that are declawed develop inappropriate behavior such as biting and urinating outside the litter box. Talk to some shelter employees sometime, and you will probably find that a disproportionate number of abandoned cats were declawed, and then their owners could not deal with the consequences. Declawing is partial amputation. The change it causes in the way a cat walks may not be obvious to us, but many of these cats develop structural problems and early arthritis. By contrast, it *is* possible to train a cat to use scratching posts instead of furniture. With each of my cats, I watched very carefully for the first few days. At the first sign of scratching, I would say "no" and then direct their attention to a scratching post. One thing I did was to tie a toy on a string and run that up and down the post. Once it had the cats's attention and the cat attacked, scratching would invariabley follow -- and I would praise lavishly. I find that lots of praise is a far better way to train than yelling and spraying water on the cat. I keep several scratching posts throughout the house because the scratcher needs to be readily available -- a cat will not go looking for one. Cats can also show distinct preferences for certain types of surfaces. Sisal is a favorite, but some prefer carpeted posts and some even like corrugated cardboard. If you browse through some of the pictures in the links under my signature in my first response, you can see some of the posts. I have two beautiful cats, and I also have nice furniture. I'm not talking about training cats to do "tricks" -- just redirect their natural tendency (and need) to scratching posts instead of furniture. MaryL There definitely are ways of training cats. The reason people have such trouble is because they instantly expect cats to train like a dog or human would, but they simply do not work that way. Can you train a cat not to claw furniture, absolutely. Is everyone capable of training a cat? Sure! But does everyone have the time, no not neccesarily. But trust me, don't pass on the myth that cats can't be trained. It's not fair to them that some humans accept defeat before studying the field deeper. I've been training cats for 17 years and have had some challenging cases, but it doesn't take too long before cats get the idea. Daniel James Training Cats Easily (dotcom) > There definitely are ways of training cats. The reason people have such > trouble is because they instantly expect cats to train like a dog or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > capable of training a cat? Sure! But does everyone have the time, no > not neccesarily. Iit is more like will people make time to do it People these days expect everyhting to be there way no matter what > But trust me, don't pass on the myth that cats can't be trained. It's > not fair to them that some humans accept defeat before studying the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Daniel James > Training Cats Easily (dotcom) Well said it is not a cat that needs to be trained but people that need to be trained > There definitely are ways of training cats. The reason people have such > trouble is because they instantly expect cats to train like a dog or [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > Daniel James > Training Cats Easily (dotcom) Well said. You said it better than I did. MaryL Some cats can be trained, Otis has been trained to only scratch the furniture while I'm not in the room! I'm actually being serious about this, he knows he's not supposed to do it, and I NEVER catch him, so there's no point telling him off. I've done all the things you are supposed to do, provide adequate scratching material, covered in catnip etc etc, even let him out in my fenced back garden but he doesn't use anything out there, still comes in, I've stopped worrying about it, the furniture can be replaced, he can't. I saw a programme where some Buddhist monks had trained cats to jump through hoops, I've never seen anything like it in my life, and don't know how they did it. I think some cats can be trained for certain things and some can't, but I do know it takes a lot of patience and a lot of frustration. Marcia > >>> A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing > >>> was [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > I agree with the article more than I agree with > "All it takes is some patience and a few days of training". > If you don't mind your furniture being destroyed, > I see no reason to have your cat declawed. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I think the cat would prefer to be adopted and loose it's > claws than to die in the shelter. I have both furniture I don't want damaged and a cat with claws. I had no trouble teaching the cat not to claw furniture (took less than a day). Third cat; third cat that did not claw furniture. As for the declawing: when I see Zak climbing up and down his climbing post and how much fun he has doing it I am glad he has his claws. > A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing was > better than traditional methods. Before anyone starts let me say first that done of my 4 are declawed. If a person insists on declawing I would say that laser declawing is the better way to go for the cat of the two types but some people can not see past the word DECLAW!!! Evidendently they would rather see a cat dead then declawed at times. > for what looks to me like a non-biased discussion of laser declawing. HUH? The writer is mainly concerned when it comes to laser declaw you make sure the technician operating the laser is properly trained and has experience of the procedure.... Other than that it seems to me to suggest declawing has its place in managing a cat who attacks furniture! I mean on a couple of the options they mention that one problem might be bleeding from the operation site and that could be a problem if "You have white carpets"!!! Oh so if you have non white carpets then its acceptable to declaw! Ignore the fact that the cat has wounded feet because you were too stupid to persuade (a better term for cats than "Train") the cat to use acceptable alternatives or just to damn lazy! Look at the question and answer section at the end- yes it agrees declawed cats should be kept indoors but it denies declawed cats develop behaviour problems, claims they can still climb (through not as well it is forced to admit but if you were cruel enough to declaw the cat in the first place presumably you won't be worried about the fact the cat can no longer climb). It also says cats don;t develop problems with the litter tray if you're considerate enough to provide newspaper based litter for 10 days post-op (Like you could be bothered since you valued your nice sofa before a living creature!) and that arthritis in declawed cats is a myth it says something like "You won't notice any difference in the way your cat moves" and neither will the cat until it comes down with arthritis a few years later caused by the fact that cats walk on their toes and declawing takes that away I am proud of a few things about the UK and one is that declawing (unless for a valid vet reason eg removing ONE claw to remove a tumour or a chonic infection) is illegal over here!! Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs Who have all their toes and I am glad of it > > for what looks to me like a non-biased discussion of laser declawing. I re read the article and at the end I nearly puked it says "The most important thing in making a claw management decision is making a decision that you are happy with." Yeah you are happy with! Not what the cat is happy with! I always think of a parody of a Mastercard advert that sums it up very well " Chair 500.00 Sofa 1,500 Knowing my cat is happy and as nature intended so has all their claws...Priceless" Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs PS I think anyone who takes a cat for that procedure should be met at the door by Animal Cruelty people and arrested and any vet that performs the procedure should be nicked as well! I had sufficiently serious problems with my girls attacking furniture that most US vets would have lured me into declawing (especially as being in the UK I didn't understand declawing until I read about it). In the end I persevered and found a post they were happy to use, without any training at all (I unpacked it and they were at it ) it's not cheap (Have to grab them when I can on eBay) but even if that had not worked I wouldn't even if I could consider mutilating a living creature just to save the furniture , that I can replace, the love of my cats I can't! >> > for what looks to me like a non-biased discussion of laser declawing. >> > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > I wouldn't even if I could consider mutilating a living creature just > to save the furniture , that I can replace, the love of my cats I can't! What scratching post did your cats like? I have several, and my cats use all of them -- but I'm always looking for extras. Do you have a link where I could see a picture? MaryL >> What scratching post did your cats like? I have several, and my cats use > all of them -- but I'm always looking for extras. Do you have a link where > I could see a picture? http://www.cosmicpet.com/scratchers.htm It's the third one down which isn't sloped like the "Alpine" I think they'd love the "Alpine" as well but Cosmic don't sell to the UK market as far as I know (I'd be delighted if someone proved me wrong and gave me a URL or an address in London!) I only need one post out at a time, they both use it sometimes together Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs >>> What scratching post did your cats like? I have several, and my cats >>> use [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Slave of the Fabulous Furballs Thanks. I don't have that one, but I did have the sloped Alpine scratcher. Oddly, that is the only scratcher that they would not use -- or, more correctly, they used it for a short time and then completely ignored it. However, Duffy does like the corrugated cardboard center (similar construction) thatforms the center of a round disk. I can't remember the name of it, but it is a large circular toy with a fixed track around the outside and a ball in the track. I have a fairly large house, so I have several scratching posts scattered through the house. In fact, I think I now have one in every room except the kitchen and bathrooms. You can see some of them if you scroll through some of the photos under my sig. Thanks for the information. MaryL Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'< Duffy: http://tinyurl.com/cslwf Holly: http://tinyurl.com/9t68o Duffy and Holly together: http://tinyurl.com/8b47e >> Thanks. I don't have that one, but I did have the sloped Alpine scratcher. > Oddly, that is the only scratcher that they would not use -- or, more > correctly, they used it for a short time and then completely ignored it. They are cats each one does their own thing > However, Duffy does like the corrugated cardboard center (similar > construction) thatforms the center of a round disk. I can't remember the > name of it, but it is a large circular toy with a fixed track around the > outside and a ball in the track. I think its called something like a Scratch and Play...okay make that two posts. I have one of those as well and they play a game I call "Cat tennis" with it Cat A whacks the ball and cat B tries to get it before it comes back to cat A. I think if cat B stops the ball they get a point and if cat A manages to get the ball past cat B they do. They sometimes play this for hours at a time The bouncy feather onna spring thing came with it has been ignored even by Sarsi who plays with pretty much anything! Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs >> > for what looks to me like a non-biased discussion of laser declawing. >> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yeah you are happy with! Not what the cat is happy with! I always thought the happiness should be mutual. I guess not. > Slave of the Fabulous Furballs Good for you. I just don't feel that way. I guess I should be arrested and thrown in prision... > PS I think anyone who takes a cat for that procedure should be met at > the door by Animal Cruelty people and arrested and any vet that > performs the procedure should be nicked as well! I thought so. I'm so EVIL. > I had sufficiently > serious problems with my girls attacking furniture that most US vets Is this where you were TOO LAZY to train your cats? > would have lured me into declawing (especially as being in the UK I > didn't understand declawing until I read about it). Here's a hint. You still don't. > In the end I > persevered and found a post they were happy to use, without any > training at all (I unpacked it and they were at it ) it's not cheap Oh please tell us about these magic posts. Tell us how many per room too. Is this the 3 posts per room solution I read about here? Up til now all I hear is preaching and insults. I don't want to do anything to a cat that I don't have to. If you really know how to stop a cat from damaging the furniture tell us instead of throwing insults and judging people you don't know. > (Have to grab them when I can on eBay) but even if that had not worked > I wouldn't even if I could consider mutilating a living creature just > to save the furniture , that I can replace, the love of my cats I can't! That's great. Before I moved to NJ I had a house full of Salvation Army furniture too. What did I care about cats ripping up the furniture? Plus I could let the cat outside. They aren't nearly as destructive when let outside, plus they need their claws outside. Now I pay for my furniture, carpets, kitchen cabinets, drapes. Our cat before this one easily did $20,000 worth of damage. As for your other MISINFORMATION, cats walk on their paws. Removing their claws does not change their gait and does not cause arthritis. Many cats get arthritis when they get old. Even if they are not declawed. One thing in the article I disagree with. Our cat bites like a snake. I believe they definitely bite harder without claws. Our cat is getting quite old. She'll climb on my chest and knead me til I can't take it anymore. Her paws don't hurt her at all. > I thought so. I'm so EVIL. At least you seem to know you are > Is this where you were TOO LAZY to train your cats? Nope but they didn;'t seem to like any posts on offer until we found the one's we use now so it was actually hard work stopping them from scratching anything > Here's a hint. You still don't. I know enough to know that it is mutilation of a living creature for no more reason than the protection of unliving things > Oh please tell us about these magic posts. > Tell us how many per room too. > Is this the 3 posts per room solution I read about here? Cosmic cardboard posts. Both my cats share one in the bedroom, no others in the flat. They make a bit of a mess with the cardboard getting ripped but that's a few seconds extra work with the vacuum cleaner > Now I pay for my furniture, carpets, kitchen cabinets, drapes. > Our cat before this one easily did $20,000 worth of damage. And you think I don't?! > As for your other MISINFORMATION, cats walk on their paws. > Removing their claws does not change their gait > and does not cause arthritis. Cats run on their toes I would suggest you watch your cat but you won't see it if the cat has no claws. Yes elderly cats can get arthritis claws or no claws but declawing increases the risks > One thing in the article I disagree with. > Our cat bites like a snake. > I believe they definitely bite harder without claws. Because they have no other way to defend themselves > Our cat is getting quite old. > She'll climb on my chest and knead me til I can't take > it anymore. Her paws don't hurt her at all. Then you are very lucky.....Ask around people who work with cat rescue (There are some on this list I think) about how many declawed cats are owner surrendered because of inappropiate elimination, behaviour problems and biting.. Lesley Slave of the Fabulous Furballs I find it interesting that any discussion of declawing stirs up the emotions of cat lovers while at the same time cosmetic surgery on dogs such as tail docking, ear cropping, and dew claw removal, barely produces a whimper. And, for both cats and dogs, neutering certainly interferes in a very strong way with the animals instinctual behavior, yet there is massive support for neutering. Just hoping to open a civil discussion. SignatureJames Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com > I find it interesting that any discussion of declawing stirs up the > emotions of cat lovers while at the same time cosmetic surgery on dogs > such as tail docking, ear cropping, and dew claw removal, barely > produces a whimper. No, plenty of people don't like this stuff either. > And, for both cats and dogs, neutering certainly interferes in a very > strong way with the animals instinctual behavior, yet there is massive > support for neutering. Because there are far far too many cats and dogs being killed for lack of homes. Got a better solution please share it. > Just hoping to open a civil discussion. Yes, and santa clause comes down the chimney. >> I find it interesting that any discussion of declawing stirs up the >> emotions of cat lovers while at the same time cosmetic surgery on dogs >> such as tail docking, ear cropping, and dew claw removal, barely produces >> a whimper. > > No, plenty of people don't like this stuff either. My comparing the cat and dog communities is based upon years of contact with each. Yes there are those in the dog community that oppose cosmetic surgery, but I encounter far, far less opposition to that surgery than I do to declawing of cats. As for the cosmetic surgery for dogs, one has to be an almost daring soul to show such as an uncropped Doberman Pinscher or Great Dane at an American Kennel Club licensed dog show. >> And, for both cats and dogs, neutering certainly interferes in a very >> strong way with the animals instinctual behavior, yet there is massive >> support for neutering. > > Because there are far far too many cats and dogs being killed for lack of > homes. Got a better solution please share it. The better solution is proper management of one's cats so that females are appropriately constrained during periods of heat and males appropriately confined to one's own property. >> Just hoping to open a civil discussion. > > Yes, and santa clause comes down the chimney. Well, so far you've been civil! :-) SignatureJames Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com > My comparing the cat and dog communities is based upon years of > contact with each. Yes there are those in the dog community that > oppose cosmetic surgery, but I encounter far, far less opposition to > that surgery than I do to declawing of cats. I would think that is because declawing is more drastic (if one could rate such things) than the others. As for the cosmetic > surgery for dogs, one has to be an almost daring soul to show such as > an uncropped Doberman Pinscher or Great Dane at an American Kennel > Club licensed dog show. Yes but this is NOT the dog community but a select segment of it. >>> And, for both cats and dogs, neutering certainly interferes in a >>> very strong way with the animals instinctual behavior, yet there is >>> massive support for neutering. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > females are appropriately constrained during periods of heat and males > appropriately confined to one's own property. First: this is not very easy to do, second: I suspect the animal is caused more distress by this solution. >>> Just hoping to open a civil discussion. >> >> Yes, and santa clause comes down the chimney. > > Well, so far you've been civil! :-) I appreciate the world is not black and white. _I_ would NEVER declaw an animal or cosmetically alter it for my own needs but I would neuter any companion animal I have. I understand others set their line at a different point however much I might protest. Would I rather see a cat declawed than destroyed? I would. I would just rather see them trained well instead and have never been convinced this can't be done. >I find it interesting that any discussion of declawing stirs up the emotions >of cat lovers while at the same time cosmetic surgery on dogs such as tail >docking, ear cropping, and dew claw removal, barely produces a whimper. Not to mention the barbaric processes of male & female human mutilation, a.k.a. circumcision. The former is silently accepted as routine, and the latter incurs howls of protests. >And, for both cats and dogs, neutering certainly interferes in a very strong >way with the animals instinctual behavior, yet there is massive support for >neutering. > >Just hoping to open a civil discussion. Our cat was adopted from a shelter already front declawed. If she had her claws then, she would still have them now. We are indeed fortunate that she does not exhibit any of the problems documented in some declawed cats. She also doesn't mind having her paws held when she snuggles, and she kneads us frequently so I presume (and hope) she's not feeling pain Signatureannoyed@net.spammers Craig, Kathi & "Cat Five" the tabby girl > Our cat was adopted from a shelter already front declawed. If she had her > claws then, she would still have them now. We are indeed fortunate that she > does not exhibit any of the problems documented in some declawed cats. She > also doesn't mind having her paws held when she snuggles, and she kneads us > frequently so I presume (and hope) she's not feeling pain All of the nine cats I have shared my home with have been rescued from shelters and all but two came declawed. To be honest I was never able to observe any difference in behavior or personality between those with claws and those without that I could attribute to their being declawed or not. SignatureJames Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com Oh pshaw, on Wed 22 Nov 2006 04:15:32p, Wayne Boatwright meant to say... > A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing > was better than traditional methods. > > AFAIK, the end result is the same and leaves the cat maimed for life. > > Any other opinions? Following up to my own post... Thanks to all of you for your points of view and, generally, your support of mine. SignatureWayne Boatwright __________________________________________________ Useless Invention: Solar powered night light. >> A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing >> was better than traditional methods. >> >> AFAIK, the end result is the same and leaves the cat maimed for life. >> >> Any other opinions? >Following up to my own post... Thanks to all of you for your points of view >and, generally, your support of mine. If you are just looking for people to agree with your point of view why even bother posting about the subject in the first place?!?!? It sounds like you are one of these people who will only see it from your point of view anyways!! Oh pshaw, on Thu 23 Nov 2006 07:53:53a, kraut meant to say... >>> A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser >>> declawing was better than traditional methods. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sounds like you are one of these people who will only see it from your > point of view anyways!! Of course I have my own opinion, as do most other people. I was interested in a consensus. I had already told my co-worker what I thought, but also said that I would get some opinions from other cat owners. SignatureWayne Boatwright __________________________________________________ Useless Invention: Solar powered night light. >A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing was >better than traditional methods. Why would you want to declaw your laser? But then why would your laser have claws anyways? how bout I come over and declaw YOU > A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing was > better than traditional methods. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > TIA > how bout I come over and declaw YOU "Wayne Boatwright" > <wayneboatwright_at_gmail.com> wrote in message > news:Xns9883AF23FE9Dwayneboatwrightatgma@217.22.228.19... >> A co-worker and new cat owner asked me if I knew whether laser declawing >> was better than traditional methods. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> >> Useless Invention: Solar powered night light. Wayne Boatrwright is strongly opposed to declawing. At least that's how I read the message of his you quote. SignatureJames Leo Ryan ..... Austin, Texas ..... taliesinsoft@mac.com Oh pshaw, on Fri 24 Nov 2006 08:25:56p, TaliesinSoft meant to say... >> how bout I come over and declaw YOU "Wayne Boatwright" > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Wayne Boatrwright is strongly opposed to declawing. At least that's how I > read the message of his you quote. You read that right, and thanks. Only one of our five cats is declawed, and she was declawed when we adopted her. I expressed this to my co- workeer, but she wanted more opinions. I agreed to ask the group. SignatureWayne Boatwright __________________________________________________ If at first we don't succeed, we run the risk of failure.
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