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FYI: Vet bills

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Roby - 06 Nov 2006 19:40 GMT
I provide data and hardware maintenance on a computer network
at a vet clinic.  There have been no software upgrades since
1998, so the staff should be completely familiar with their
invoicing software.

Three years ago, I stumbled across several remarkably large
overcharges in a small and scattered group of invoices.  In
each case, a single line-item had been invoiced at a huge
overcharge; generally $100+ above the standard price, sometimes
more.  The largest was a $450 charge for an item that should
have been priced at $5.  Every time, the client paid his bill
in full -- apparently without complaint -- and probably
found another vet.

It was easy to discover how these errors had happened.  Data
entry is one line-item (service or inventory item) at a time:
the operator enters an alphanumeric code defining the item
and then the quantity sold.  The program fills in a default
standard price for the code and quantity and puts it in the
next field, which the operator may type over to adjust.  It
was immediately clear that these big errors happened when the
operator lost track of which field was being entered: I could
reproduce the error every time by just getting out-of-sync
with the program ... and not looking at the screen.  The program
has no protection against such errors, even to the point of
silently ignoring non-numeric keystrokes into a price field.

I told the folks at the clinic what I found, demonstrated exactly
how it was happening, and gave them copies of the overcharged
invoices I had discovered.  They offered cash refunds to some
clients, added credit to account balances on others.  I wrote
a program to audit all of the invoices generated within an input
range of dates, found additional error of the same sort, and
continue to report errors as I find them, although I seldom
visit anymore.  Most recent error: $270 charged for 7 Orbax tabs.

Two observations:

It is amazing that anybody can churn out invoices all day, every
day and not develop some sense of what the bottom line ought to be.

It is equally amazing that we who pay these bills just roll over
and let this happen, seemingly without noticing.
catz - 07 Nov 2006 00:43 GMT
> Two observations:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> It is equally amazing that we who pay these bills just roll over
> and let this happen, seemingly without noticing.

You missed the *single* most important consumer responsibility:

     "CAVEAT  EMPTOR"

If anyone does not know what that means, you owe it to
yourself to find out.
tension_on_the_wire - 07 Nov 2006 07:16 GMT
> > Two observations:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> If anyone does not know what that means, you owe it to
> yourself to find out.

"Let the Buyer Beware" should not really apply to medical bills.  Only
in the United States are patients (human of course, though I
feel cats should also be included) treated like customers.
The providers have a responsibility to bill fairly and accurately
considering many systems allow the provider to bill insurance
directly without the patient/client/customer ever seeing exactly
what is being billed.  I understand I'm extrapolating a bit saying
this about a vet bill, but all cat slaves here will understand my
point, I think.

--tension
catz - 07 Nov 2006 18:48 GMT
I review all vet bills in detail, before I ever leave the vet's
office and quickly question anything that is not crystal
clear.  My vet's staff cooperates fully.

As far as human health insurance goes, virtually all insurance
companies send a detailed copy to the insured of all payments
made to health care providers.  It is the insured's responsibility
to carefully review the billing for accuracy and promptly report
fraud and errors to their health insurance company.   In reality,
very few people do this.  The result is high health insurance
premiums and widespread fraud.   Government schools are
"graduating" more functional illiterates every year.
catz - 07 Nov 2006 19:06 GMT
BTW, in the USA, health care providers are under
no obligation to bill "fairly," whatever that means.
They bill what they think their services are worth.
Same goes for vets.  My vet charges more than most
vets in the area.  I pay her fees, because she is more
than worth it.  How about dentists?  You want crap
care, then go to a high-volume cheap clinic.  You
want someone who is good working on your teeth?
Then you find a good dentist and pay his fee.

> "Let the Buyer Beware" should not really apply to medical bills.  Only
> in the United States are patients (human of course, though I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> --tension
Roby - 07 Nov 2006 19:41 GMT
> BTW, in the USA, health care providers are under
> no obligation to bill "fairly," whatever that means.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> want someone who is good working on your teeth?
> Then you find a good dentist and pay his fee.

The vet who has treated my cat for the past six years
recently moved 40 miles closer.  That was the good
news.  The office visit that used to cost $50 is now $110.
I asked about it.  The receptionist told me that the new
prices "are consistant with other practices in the area."
Same vet, same exam.  New price.  He's still worth it, but
I'm growing weary of every price being set at all the market
will bear.

In February, I had oral surgery.  Half an hour of outpatient
surgery: $17,000.  I was tempted to ask for the details that
led to the pharmacy part ($800) ... dunno what I bought beyond
a liter of saline and an injection of dexamethasone on the way
out.  Past attempts at challenging bills like this taught me
that the hospital knows just what to write down on the insurance
claim.  Maybe this explains why my premium goes up 25-30% every
year.  As with the vet, the surgeon was top notch and I'm very
satisfied with the service.  Paying for it is the problem.

Does anybody hold up stage coaches anymore?
tension_on_the_wire - 08 Nov 2006 05:20 GMT
> BTW, in the USA, health care providers are under
> no obligation to bill "fairly," whatever that means.
> They bill what they think their services are worth.

I am in the USA, and I am a health care provider.  The obligation to
bill fairly means not billing for procedures that were not done, not
billing for equipment that was not used, not billing for drugs not
given, not billing for lab tests that were not administered,
and not billing for patients that were not seen.  There are Fair
Practice
laws in all the fifty states that govern business practices and they
most certainly do apply to physicians as well as anybody else
who goes into private business of any other type.

And no, physicians do not bill what they think their services are
worth.
They bill what they feel is in order to make their private business
earn profit, knowing, however, that they will only get paid for what
either
private insurance, or Medicaid, etc will choose to reimburse them.....
they can charge all they want, but they will only receive what the
insurance company thinks their services are worth.  In most cases,
except for the ones who practice in neighborhoods that can support
whatever they choose to charge, and those neighborhoods are few
and far between, a physician who bills much beyond what the insurance
will pay is well aware that he is not likely to see that bill paid on
time,
if ever, and his practice is likely to shrink as patients seek other,
more appropriate providers.

The enormous account-crashing bills (>$25,000.00 plus) that one hears
about
which are so notorious in the American healthcare system are usually
generated by unexpected hospital stays and these are the main bills
I was referring to in my previous post, actually, because there is no
way it is reasonable to expect an average layperson to be able to
parse a sixteen page itemization of all the materials, drugs and
equipment that might have been used in an ICU stay, or in an OR visit,
for example.  It would be extremely easy for a hospital billing office
to charge ridiculous amounts (such as twelve fleet enemas) and fully
expect to get away with it given the hundred of items on that bill
surrounding
the questionable item and the fact that it's "only" the insurance
company
getting ripped off, if it weren't for the Fair Business Practices laws
that make it a criminal act.  And most insurance companies do NOT
send that itemization to the patient anyways....they send a summary
that looks something like this:
Emergency Room evaluation:     $600.00
ICU stay (three days) :           $9000.00
cardiology consult:                $550.00
anesthesia consult:  etc.
miscellaneous equipment, etc.

...numbers from a hat, btw.......they don't usually itemize
directly to the patient just how many IV tubings were changed
during their stay etc. etc.  Some do, but most don't.  What they
will itemize will be any extras such as private hospital room,
telephone charges, things incurred directly by patient request.

It's not just CAVEAT EMPTOR anymore.  How on earth could anyone
have won a class action lawsuit against the big tobacco companies
if that were true?

--tension
catz - 08 Nov 2006 18:54 GMT
Agree with 98% of what you said, and the other 2% is
not worth bickering over.  My thought was you were using
"fair" from the the aspect of someone on the extreme left of
the political spectrum.   A practice is first and foremost a
business, as you pointed out. As an aside, in my area, some
doctors, fed up with the insurance hassle, are opening practices
that charge up front fees for services.  The patient pays in full,
when the service is rendered.  No insurance forms, no clerical
staff, no waiting for reimbursement, etc.  Much of what you
said depends on honesty, something in short supply in America
today.

>> BTW, in the USA, health care providers are under
>> no obligation to bill "fairly," whatever that means.
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>
> --tension
tension_on_the_wire - 09 Nov 2006 04:54 GMT
> Agree with 98% of what you said, and the other 2% is
> not worth bickering over.  My thought was you were using
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> said depends on honesty, something in short supply in America
> today.

I'm curious....are those the new "retail" practices you are
talking about?  In shopping malls? How are they doing?
I imagine if the fees are significantly lower than usual,
people might be willing to pay up front.
At the County Hospital in Los Angeles, they used to have
a system (they might still do, I don't know) where if a patient
showed up in the ER and paid $35.00 up front, before being
seen by anyone, his whole visit would be covered.  If he did
not pay up front, he was liable to receive a bill in the mail later
usually averaging about $600.00 for the visit after itemizing
all materials and consults.  Of course they did not actually
*advertise* the rule, or anything sane like that at all, so if you
didn't know, you were screwed.  I hereby would like to confess
that I made it a practice to let it be known far and wide, heheh.

I would certainly advise anyone reading this in the US
to remember it if they are without coverage and find themselves
in the ER of any County Hospital to ask up front before
service if they have a deal like that.  Santa Clara
County has one for $65.00 now, I think.

--tension
tension_on_the_wire - 09 Nov 2006 06:20 GMT
> At the County Hospital in Los Angeles, they used to have
> a system (they might still do, I don't know) where if a patient
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> --tension

Sorry to drop that on you all mid-conversation but I realized
I would like my favourite groups to be aware of this little
tidbit.

--tension
Jo Firey - 09 Nov 2006 07:24 GMT
>> Agree with 98% of what you said, and the other 2% is
>> not worth bickering over.  My thought was you were using
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> --tension

Until a few years ago I had a chiropractor who finally gave up will billing
and insurance and the related hassles.  All visits were $35 cash (She didn't
much like dealing with bad checks either.)

She retired and I really miss her.  Only chiropractor I've ever been
comfortable with.  Never claimed to be able to cure anything or did anything
to increase her business.  I was a regular.  Twice a year in the two weeks
before April 15th.  My arm would start to ache.  After a few days I'd get to
where I couldn't hold a pencil.  She fixed it right up.  Only advice she
gave me was to go home and go to bed and sleep after the treatment.

Jo
GB - 11 Nov 2006 20:36 GMT
> Twice a year in the two weeks before April 15th.  My arm would start to
> ache.  After a few days I'd get to where I couldn't hold a pencil.

What happens on 15 April? Final date for tax returns, maybe?
Burt Smith - 12 Nov 2006 04:50 GMT
Sounds a lot like carpal tunnel syndrome.

> > Twice a year in the two weeks before April 15th.  My arm would start to
> > ache.  After a few days I'd get to where I couldn't hold a pencil.
>
> What happens on 15 April? Final date for tax returns, maybe?
wester@laway.net - 08 Nov 2006 22:28 GMT
>> BTW, in the USA, health care providers are under
>> no obligation to bill "fairly," whatever that means.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>given, not billing for lab tests that were not administered,
>and not billing for patients that were not seen.

Just curious--I work for a dentist. He accepts all insurances except
for Medicaid and Medicare. In fact, it would appear that no dentist in
private practice will accept these forms of insurance. Can you tell me
why? I'd ask my boss, but he's waaaaaaaaaay too busy....

TIA!
catz - 09 Nov 2006 03:55 GMT
>>> BTW, in the USA, health care providers are under
>>> no obligation to bill "fairly," whatever that means.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> TIA!

I could be wrong, but I believe Medicare & Medicaid do not
include dental benefits.   Same thing with Tricare, which is a
government insurance program for the military.  It also does not
include any dental benefits.
tension_on_the_wire - 09 Nov 2006 04:44 GMT
> Just curious--I work for a dentist. He accepts all insurances except
> for Medicaid and Medicare. In fact, it would appear that no dentist in
> private practice will accept these forms of insurance. Can you tell me
> why? I'd ask my boss, but he's waaaaaaaaaay too busy....
>
> TIA!

Most physicians will tell you, unless they are married to
dentists, that dental practice is a *complete* mystery
to them, heheh.  We have always got the idea,
probably wrong, that dental practice is very similar
to vet practice in that it is perceived as pertaining
to issues that are not life-threatening for people
(I disagree with that, personally, btw) and therefore
not "essential" which means, on some strange moral
scale, that they are free to turn down patients if they
cannot pay.  In medicine this isn't true, though Hollywood
and the media would have you believe otherwise, but
if a patient presents with a life-threatening condition,
it is illegal to refuse to treat just because of lack of
appropriate insurance, even if he is in the ER of
a private hospital which doesn't take Medical,
for instance, or Medicaid.  Dentists have the luxury
of turning down anyone, and they can afford to be
choosy.  Physicians can only refuse Medicaid or
Medical patients in private clinics, but nowhere else,
so they usually find a way to make it work.  Dentists
and vets can both say....no pay, no visit.  They can
also charge hundreds of dollars over what insurance
will pay, and because they all do it (at least I am
unaware of any dentists who don't)....patients are
stuck trying to find someone who will do a procedure
which isn't fully covered without a surcharge.

As I said, I may be perceiving it wrong, but the
short story seems to be that they do it,
because they can.

--tension (no really, I'm *not* biased!)
MaryL - 07 Nov 2006 01:26 GMT
>I provide data and hardware maintenance on a computer network
> at a vet clinic.  There have been no software upgrades since
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> It is equally amazing that we who pay these bills just roll over
> and let this happen, seemingly without noticing.

Heh!  That reminds me of a bill I received *for myself* from a local
hospital some years ago.  I tend to be a "detail" type of person, so I waded
through many pages of hospital bills even though my insurance paid most of
it.  Then I found the most ridiculous item (although admittedly a fairly
small amount) -- I was charged for *12 Fleet's enemas* and I had not had
*any.*  When I was questioned, the girl in the business office told me
"maybe I had just forgotten it."  I said there is *no* way *anyone* would
forget 12 enemas!!  They finally took it off the bill, but I have never
erased that episode from my memory.

MaryL
Roby - 07 Nov 2006 02:02 GMT

> Heh!  That reminds me of a bill I received *for myself* from a local
> hospital some years ago.  I tend to be a "detail" type of person, so I
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> MaryL

Me too!  I was billed for a mammogram ordered by a gyn.  I'm a guy.  I
didn't remember the mammogram or even the doc who ordered it.  Despite
phone calls and letters to the radiologist, the bills continued to
arrive.  Eventually, they turned my case over to a collection agency
which quietly stopped bothering me after one phone call.

Roby
tension_on_the_wire - 07 Nov 2006 07:12 GMT
> arrive.  Eventually, they turned my case over to a collection agency
> which quietly stopped bothering me after one phone call.
>
> Roby

Wow, that must be some kind of record.  I too made
history,once, when I managed to get the Los Angeles
Parking Authority to cancel a parking ticket
without going to court!  And the employees
were laughing at me when I walked in there,
but I was laughing on the way out!

--tension
LMadigan@hhnt.nhs.uk - 08 Nov 2006 00:18 GMT
-- I was charged for *12 Fleet's enemas* and I had not had
> *any.*  When I was questioned, the girl in the business office told me
> "maybe I had just forgotten it."  I said there is *no* way *anyone* would
> forget 12 enemas!!

I don't believe anyone would forget one enema let alone 12!

LOL!!!

Lesley

Slave of the Fabulous Furballs
 
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