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FAQ, sorry AFQ: Another Food Question

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tension_on_the_wire - 16 Sep 2006 01:18 GMT
On the topic of food, I have a dilemma which I am struggling with.
Luthien the Elder has been, for at least five or six years now, eating
dry Science Diet Senior with Hairball control.  She is a domestic
shorthair, but Zildjian the even Elder, who passed away a couple of
years ago was an extremely long-hair (Balinese silky type) Tortie &
White with severe hairball problems and this diet, along with weekly
malt petroleum did the trick for her.  They were free-range eaters, the
food there all the time, and there was no way to restrict them into two
different diets, nor was it really necessary.  I never changed the diet
after Zildjian died, on account of the fact that Luthien was doing fine
with it, and I don't like to rock the boat...if it ain't broke, don't
fix it.

But now circumstances have changed.  Luthien has been diagnosed with
severe (three times higher than normal) hyperthyroidism and I need to
pill her twice a day and it is medicine which should be accompanied by
food, so now she gets a Fancy Feast can immediately after the pill,
twice a day.  Her rate of eating the dry food has gone down, as
expected, and all is well there.  The problem is Muezza Glorio, the new
kitten who just arrived last week.  He is two months old, and he needs
kitten food.  He, too, gets a half-can with Luthien, otherwise how mean
would *that* be, though it will be kitten-can immediately after my next
shopping trip.  But he digs into the dry food all throughout the day as
well.  How do I separate two different diets in free-range cats?  Okay,
free-feeding, but I like free-range better.

The point is, I cannot stop little guy from digging into the dry food,
but I don't want to take it away from Luthien who, as an elder cat with
hyperthyroidism, is not a great candidate for anesthesia even for
something simple like teeth-cleaning (and I understand that wet food is
much more common a culprit for plaque and tartar production in the
teeth), and her teeth are not bad, for her age, but getting to the
point where she  might need a first-time cleaning in the foreseeable
future.

Any thoughts?

--tension (covering ears of Luthien & Muezza Glorio so they don't hear
the plan)
Andrea - 16 Sep 2006 17:54 GMT
Tension,
I do have a thought or two to share...
First, nice work so far, sounds like you've really been on the ball with
your cats.

Adult cat food is not "bad" for kittens, it just isn't enough.  When we have
clients with older cats and younger cats with different needs, the first
thing to do is look at what the older cat needs.  Is it detrimental to the
health of the kitten?  In your case, no, it isn't.  In fact, hairball food
tends to be more fattening that standard adult formulations.  If your adult
was on K/D or some other prescription diet, we would have a different
conversation.

In order to make sure kitten is getting enough of what he needs, I suggest
you simply give him his own yummy feeding 2 or 3 times per day with kitten
formulas.  If you take your choice of kitten kibble, add a tablespoon of
kitten canned, add water, and mix, you end up with a delicious concoction
that he will likely eat in one sitting.  He gets the crunch, the fiber, and
the perception of gravy all in one bowl.  Then you can pick up the kitten
bowl, Luthien doesn't get into it, and leave the adult kibble out.  It is
okay if the kitten snacks on that in addition to the kitten feedings, as
long as he gets a couple of kitten meals per day.

The only trouble with this plan is that you will spoil the little tyke...
but I doubt this is an actual problem in your house!

Regarding Luthien needing to take his pills with food, I think you can do
just what you are doing.  Some vets do believe a strictly canned food diet
is bad for the teeth, and others disagree.  But most of them seem to agree
at least that a mixed diet with both is good.  And since with the above
suggestion you don't have to pull the s.d. hairball free choice bowl, all
should be well!

God Bless your family and I hope Luthien finds the balance with his health.

Andrea

> On the topic of food, I have a dilemma which I am struggling with.
> Luthien the Elder has been, for at least five or six years now, eating
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> --tension (covering ears of Luthien & Muezza Glorio so they don't hear
> the plan)
tension_on_the_wire - 16 Sep 2006 20:54 GMT
> Tension,
> I do have a thought or two to share...
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Andrea

Thank you for your comments, Andrea.  We will probably go ahead with
that and supplement little Glorio a bit more and take it from there.
My next question, however, is a bit more complicated:

We both agreed (vet & I) that Luthien very likely was hyperthyroid for
some time given the fact that she had lost at least three pounds from
her recovery weight (she went through a terrible trauma when Zildjian
died two years ago as she discovered the dead body before anyone and
was so freaked out she ran away for five weeks, and came back home to
pretty much die, having lost five pounds....it was kitty intensive care
around here and took a good few months to get her back up from 7lbs to
about 9lbs which I call her recovery weight, she had been 12 lbs before
that)....at any rate, when she presented to the vet two weeks ago she
was down to 6.5 lbs, and had a wee kitty heart rate of 240 bpm which
our vet had never seen, and the assumption was that her blood pressure
was probably higher than normal as well.  Anyways, the reason I mention
this is that if the kidneys are exposed to high blood pressure for a
long time, there is a significant risk of renal damage and possibly
even a progression to CRF, even after the hyperthyroidism is treated.
In fact, the drop in blood pressure after treatment can reduce the
perfusion to the kidney on account of the fact that it was so used to
those higher pressures before.....so now...we have to consider the
protein load in her diet.

She is certainly not a candidate for protein restriction, and hopefully
won't become one, but on account of the risk, my big question
is....what do you do with a cachectic cat who desperately needs to make
up bulk and needs large amounts of protein for that since she should be
in an anabolic state by now if her treatment is successful?  Is it safe
to give extra protein to a cat who needs it, but whose kidneys might be
vulnerable?  Of course, we will be discussing this with vet at her one
month check to see if we have made any progress on the thyroid, at
which time we will do kidney labs, but I welcome any input from folks
who might have had similar quandries between skinny cats with renal
problems who need protein.

--tension
Andrea - 17 Sep 2006 05:09 GMT
Tension,

I am sorry to say that I don't think I will be of any help on this one.  The
answer really depends on those blood values.  But I would like to suggest
that you be prepared to discuss fish oils with your vet when they get those
labs back.  I have more to learn in precisely how the proteins and fats
affect the kidneys at the cellular level, and therefore don't feel qualified
to say much there.  I could give some words regarding what I have seen in
the clinic, but that would be irresponsible of me because I'm not sure I
have a strong grasp on the science behind it.

Sorry I couldn't do better on this one!

Andrea

>> Tension,
>> I do have a thought or two to share...
[quoted text clipped - 80 lines]
>
> --tension
~*Connie*~ - 16 Sep 2006 23:31 GMT
I belong to a group for diabetic cats.  One of the regulars is a vet.  She
runs the website http://www.catinfo.org  Very helpful website on cat
nutrition.

One of her favorite sayings about kitten food is it is not necessary when
feeding a species appropriate diet since there are no 'kitten mice"  in the
wild.

A species appropriate diet is one that is high in protein, low in carbs, and
has a high moisture content.  If you aren't open to feeding a raw food or
prey diet, then the closest thing to that is canned food.

Fancy Feast is one of the favorite get anywhere brands.  However, not all
varieties of FF are low in carb.  Check out
http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm for varieties that are.

If you feel you NEED to supplement your kittens, one thing I have done in
the past (for foster kittens) is make a box with a hole in it large enough
for the kitten to get in but not your older cat.  If your older cat can't
jump up on things, then leaving a bowl of food out in a higher location
might help too.

I am a huge fan of scheduled feedings when there is more than one cat in the
house.  If you leave food down all the time, it will take you longer to
notice when one cat is not eating well.  It is a little hard on the cat to
go from free fed, to scheduled feedings, but they get used to it pretty
quick.  Again, wild cats aren't free fed.  They have to chase their meal,
and will often end up going hungry because they miss.

The experts out there are doing more and more studies on the issue of dry
food.  They are coming to the conclusion that it is equivalent to mcdonalds
foods for kids.  It has nutrients, but it has so many fillers and by
products, that it is pretty hard on the cats.  It DOES NOT help with their
teeth (google dry cat food teeth and you'll see lots of explanations why)
Yes, lots of cats do just fine on dry food and live long happy lives, but
LOTS of cats end up with health issues because of it.

> On the topic of food, I have a dilemma which I am struggling with.
> Luthien the Elder has been, for at least five or six years now, eating
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> --tension (covering ears of Luthien & Muezza Glorio so they don't hear
> the plan)
Andrea - 17 Sep 2006 04:58 GMT
So many issues and feeding opinions among vets and nutritionists.  I will be
starting a nutrition segment in school shortly and I anticipate it to be
loaded with controversy.

I agree with Connie that the dry food does not normally help much with
tartar build up, although science diet has one called TD (tartar diet) that
is up for discussion.  But I completely and totally disagree about the
blanket statement that all dry foods are like mcdonalds.  Not all foods are
loaded with by-products, and even the ones that have by-products are not
necessarily as bad as a big mac.  That said, I have not gotten a masters in
nutrition, so what do I know besides what I've been able to study and
observe.  It is a controversial area.

Regarding feeding protocols that are designed to model wild cats, I disagree
with that method for two reasons.  1) The cats who own us are NOT wild.
They have been domesticated for thousands of years.  2) Even if they were,
cats in the wild don't live very long so how can we know that a sporadic
diet is healthy?

How healthy are stray cats compared to pet cats?

In addition, if we are to assume that the wild cat diet is the best way to
go, then we need to acknowledge that the wild cat eats most of its prey,
bones, by-products, and all.  Canned food does not mimic a prey diet.  The
only thing that mimics a prey diet is a prey diet.  But again, the genetic
pool of our genetic cats is far removed from that of the wild cats, anyway,
so the comparison is a little pointless.

On the other hand, I agree with Connie that scheduled feedings can be a very
good idea in a multi-cat household so you know how much everyone is eating,
but I also acknowledge that this isn't the perfect plan in every household
or for every cat.  We need flexibility.  Connies suggestion with the box is
a good one as long as the adult isn't pushy enough to scratch his way in and
as long as the adult is athletic enough to jump up (I have a preference for
the top of the washer).

>I belong to a group for diabetic cats.  One of the regulars is a vet.  She
>runs the website http://www.catinfo.org  Very helpful website on cat
[quoted text clipped - 73 lines]
>> --tension (covering ears of Luthien & Muezza Glorio so they don't hear
>> the plan)
 
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