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Cat Forum / General Topics / May 2006Purina DM
Hi, My diabetic cat has been using Purina DM for about a year now. I am amazed that it controls her diabetes but am concerned that it gets so dry. My vet only sells the 12 lb bags which take about 3 months to go through. Sooner or later, the food gets drier and I hear her crunching on it as if it were rocks she was chewing. I know Purina makes a wet/canned version of DM but I prefer dry food for a few reasons. Does anyone else notice how dry the dry version gets? I've written and called Purina and they aren't too concerned. I am afraid that sooner or later she will crack a tooth. (Then I think it is fair to consider legal action.) I've also told my vet of my concerns but they haven't decided to stock the smaller bags, which I think would be the best solution short of Purina changing their formula so that it isn't so dry. I do close the bags after use (and actually have them wrapped in another plastic bag to keep the foraging ants from rediscovering it). Would putting them in the refrigerator help? I've also added water to it sometimes but it falls apart and looks terrible though the cat will eat it when she's hungry enough. Cheers, Lipwak >legal action.) I've also told my vet of my concerns but they haven't >decided to stock the smaller bags, which I think would be the best If your vet won't stock the smaller bags (very strange) ask them to order you a smaller bag when they do their order. The other option is to call other vets in town; if you find one who carries the smaller bags, buy it there. >>legal action.) I've also told my vet of my concerns but they haven't >>decided to stock the smaller bags, which I think would be the best > >If your vet won't stock the smaller bags (very strange) ask them to order you >a smaller bag when they do their order. The other option is to call other >vets in town; if you find one who carries the smaller bags, buy it there. The OP may not have that option. DM is prescription food. The vet may insist it be gotten through their office. Also check the price. My vet sells it at cost. I tried other sources and they were significantly higher (and this was before shipping.) BTW, how much are you feeding them. I get the large bag, it lasts less than a month. This is the large bag. And this is under vet orders to feed her 1/3 less than the quantity specified on the bag. Yes, the vet has prescribed it so want to keep using it but wouldn't mind buying it elsewhere if I could get the smaller bag. I feed her 1/3 of a cup whenever she runs out but no more than twice a day. The vet recommended 1/4 cup, twice a day. They say it is more substantial than normal food, thus the lower quantity. She's a little heavier than I'd like but within a range that the vet approves and certainly not an overweight cat. I don't know how your large bag lasts only a month where mine lasts three... Cheers, Lipwak I've asked them ad so far they haven't done it but I will keep asking. I should ask other vets to see if they sell the smaller size. Cheers, Lipwak >Does anyone else notice how dry the dry version gets? I've written and >called Purina and they aren't too concerned. I am afraid that sooner or >later she will crack a tooth. (Then I think it is fair to consider >legal action.) I've also told my vet of my concerns but they haven't Whoops, I wasn't done. If the company isn't giving you good service, there is also Hill's m/d if your vet carries that one in a smaller bag. >>Does anyone else notice how dry the dry version gets? I've written and >>called Purina and they aren't too concerned. I am afraid that sooner or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Whoops, I wasn't done. If the company isn't giving you good service, there >is also Hill's m/d if your vet carries that one in a smaller bag. Again that is prescription food too. : My vet only sells the 12 lb bags which take about 3 months to go : through. Sooner or later, the food gets drier... Try the following. Buy good quality ziplock bags large enough to contain a few days worth of food. When you get a new 12 bag, divide it into ziplocks. Put one bag outside, 2-3 in the refrigerator, and the rest in the freezer (these could go inside a large tightly sealed bag). Now you have an assembly line going from freezer to refrigerator to outside to food bowl. :) Hope this works. That's probably the way to go. I'll look into it. Putting it in the refrig doesn't encourage bacterial growth or mold? That'd be my only concern about doing that. Keeping it there for 3 months worries me.(Yes, I know refrigerators retard spoilage but leaving things in there for that long?) Cheers, Lipwak >That's probably the way to go. I'll look into it. Putting it in the >refrig doesn't encourage bacterial growth or mold? That'd be my only >concern about doing that. Keeping it there for 3 months worries >me.(Yes, I know refrigerators retard spoilage but leaving things in >there for that long?) I doubt that it needs to be refrigerated or frozen - that would encourage condensation within the bag from the trapped air. Keeping it tightly sealed in fairly small containers in a cool dry place should work well. I would use something sturdier than plastic bags - probably food storage containers or glass jars with good sealing lids. I actually store my cat food in buckets with snap-on lids (used litter buckets), but with twelve cats and who knows how many ferals and vermin eating it, I go through a ten-pound bucket in a few days. It seems that the food starts becoming less attractive to the cats once the bucket is mostly air.  SignatureT.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu) SPAM filter: Messages to this address *must* contain "T.E.D." somewhere in the body or they will be automatically rejected. >That's probably the way to go. I'll look into it. Putting it in the >refrig doesn't encourage bacterial growth or mold? That'd be my only >concern about doing that. Keeping it there for 3 months worries >me.(Yes, I know refrigerators retard spoilage but leaving things in >there for that long?) If you have a vacuum sealer, you can use that. : Putting it in the refrig doesn't encourage bacterial growth or mold? : Keeping it there for 3 months worries me.(Yes, I know refrigerators : retard spoilage but leaving things in there for that long?) To clarify, long term storage is in the freezer. Food is air-sealed and double bagged. Trust me, this will keep fresh longer than sitting outside. You can skip the refrigerator stage if you wish. To make sure you always have some food properly thawed to room temperature, have two bags out at any time. Serve from one and when it finishes, start the other one and bring one out of the freezer. Make sure ziplock bags are decent quality, so they would indeed be air and moisture tight. I hope I've responded to all the threads. The posting order is out of whack for some reason and I can't straighten it out... Thanks all. Lipwak Hi! I have a 16 yr old diabetic. She recently had some unrelated health issues, and I stumbled upon felinediabetes.com This is an extremely helpful website. Just so you know, you do NOT need to feed Purina DM. In fact, most people who have done the research on it will tell you that it is very low quality food, and not the best thing to be feeding. The reason vets recommend DM is because it is low carbs. The reason they recommend Purina / science diet / etc is because that is what they are trained with by the companies themselves. Very few vets actually study pet nutrition. There are TONS of OTC low carb foods available. None of them are dry though. Dry food by definition has to be high in carbs. Ditch the dry, get them on wet, you might even be able to control your cats BGs enough to stop using insulin all together (see the message board on felinediabetes.com for a huge number of cats that are diet controlled) I have six cats. Two with urinary issues (blocked with crystals) and a diabetic. I switched to a raw diet, and everyone did amazing on it. My diabetic's need for insulin went from 7 units BID (on dry food) to less than 1 BID. Probably could have gotten her diet controlled, but she stopped eating the raw. Don't know why, but she's old, and she's diabetic, and she can have what she wants in my opinion. She's currently eating Evo canned, and her insulin needs are somewhere between 1 and 2 units BID. She was on Fancy Feast (no wheat gluten) Turkey and Giblets, but I hated opening 6 cans a day for her. For a great list of canned foods that are low in carbs check out http://www.felinediabetes.com/diabetic-cat-diets.htm and just so everyone who reads this post knows, they are tying a dry food diet into more and more health problems with cats. Those that are doing the research are recommending wet food. Dry has no redeeming value (it does NOT clean teeth) and is pretty much equivalent to feeding McDonalds - although slightly worse, as dry food can have a tendency to leave a cat dehydrated since cats do not have a high thirst drive. > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Lipwak >There are TONS of OTC low carb foods available. None of them are dry >though. That eliminates my Calico. She doesn't do moist food. She is on the DM and only eats dry food. At 17 years old she has never tolerated moist food. >and just so everyone who reads this post knows, they are tying a dry food >diet into more and more health problems with cats. You have a source for this? : >and just so everyone who reads this post knows, they are tying a dry food : >diet into more and more health problems with cats. : You have a source for this? <http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=whyc atsneedcannedfood> "Why Cats Need Canned Food" http://catnutrition.org/obesity.html : "even the worst canned food is better than dry food, because it will invariably be lower in carbohydrates and have much more moisture in it. The water in canned food is not a wasted, useless, filler that's only there to take up space. It's insurance that a cat is getting her moisture with her food, as nature intended. A cat eating dry food, even if she is drinking supplemental water, still has roughly only half the water intake of a cat eating canned food." http://catinfo.org/ "We Are Feeding Cats Too Many Carbohydrates" "Try various brands and flavors of canned foods - no matter how low in quality. You can worry about feeding a higher quality canned food later. The initial goal is just to get your cat used to eating canned food and not dry kibble." http://www.catinfo.org/commercialcannedfoods.htm : "On a favorable note, no matter which category you choose from, when comparing even the lowest quality canned food to a dry food, most canned products at least cover the three most important issues: 1. Canned food contains the appropriate amount of water for a species with a very low thirst drive and will result in an optimally hydrated cat. 2. Canned food derives most, if not all, of its protein from animal sources - not plant sources. 3. Canned food is lower in carbohydrates than dry food." ----------------------------------------------------------------------- However, if your cat is addicted to dry, she may resist eating canned food. You must switch her gently and diplomatically. Your cat MUST eat at least once a day. If that means feeding her a little dry, then so be it. Read the above sites thoroughly. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- ><http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=whyc >http://catnutrition.org/obesity.html : >http://catinfo.org/ >http://www.catinfo.org/commercialcannedfoods.htm : Every one of these articles are written by "holistic" veterinarinas. Do you have any other sources from conventional animal nutritionists? : ><http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=whyc : >http://catnutrition.org/obesity.html : [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] : Every one of these articles are written by "holistic" veterinarinas. Do you : have any other sources from conventional animal nutritionists? I had no idea about this specialty of vets or that something is wrong with it. Are there "conventional" studies that find kibble superior? >I had no idea about this specialty of vets or that something is wrong >with it. Are there "conventional" studies that find kibble superior? Nope, nothing wrong with them, they just have different points of view than conventional vets. They seem to think more things are toxic, dangerous, etc. Conventional vets say dry or canned is fine although some are trying more canned now for weight loss and diabetes. Actually, it is Animal Nutritionists who are much more schooled and knowledgable in what animals need nutrition-wise. That's why it's a good idea to use pet food from companies that employ AN's, not just vets. Personally, I use a mixture of both - some dry kibble set out for the day, some canned in the morning, and now a bit in the evening too (I never used to feed it twice a day but the little guys look up at me so sweetly, I can't resist). One thing I do have to disagree about though - a lousy made canned food isn't better than a great made dry food. I would be concerned that the crappy canned food had too much phosphorus, calcium, magnesium, etc. in it. : Nope, nothing wrong with them, they just have different points of view than : conventional vets. They seem to think more things are toxic, dangerous, etc. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : made dry food. I would be concerned that the crappy canned food had too much : phosphorus, calcium, magnesium, etc. in it. We should of course avoid trashy food of any kind. However, we can get pretty inexpensive canned food which is acceptable in these minerals. OTOH, even the best kibble has very high % of carbs, typically 10-15 TIMES what cat's bodies can process, which can lead to obesity, diabetes, and more. Are there any studies that find kibble to be the better food in a positive sense, rather than just acceptable or "not proven harmful" etc? What possible advantage could be there in feeding basically meat-flavored cereal to your cat? Price might be a legitimate advantage, but if you buy quality dry food, even that difference is likely to be insignificant. >Are there any studies that find kibble to be the better food in a >positive sense, rather than just acceptable or "not proven harmful" >What possible advantage could be there in feeding basically >meat-flavored cereal to your cat? Price might be a legitimate >advantage, but if you buy quality dry food, even that difference is >likely to be insignificant. Here's a really good site I found that's run by Animal Nutritionists. If you don't find what you're looking for in the FAQ section, you can click on Contact Us and ask them any question you want: http://www.petdiets.com/default.asp?Menu=FAQs&PageName=/faqs/default.asp : http://www.petdiets.com/default.asp?Menu=FAQs&PageName=/faqs/default.asp I am happy to accept that others have a different viewpoint. However, according to Phil (another thread) their calories calculator <http://www.petdiets.com/default.asp?Menu=Nutrition&Submenu=DER&PageName =/calculate/der.asp> is based on outdated information and gives numbers that are 50% too high (155 Kcal/day instead of 100 for a 5 lb neutered adult). So I would be cautious about the rest of advice as well. Thios is not to suggest that everything there is wrong or you should not believe what you have double-checked from other sources. On canned v dry, we would just have to agree to disagree. I appreciate your input and look forward to it again on other issues. Thanks all. I'm reading these and getting some good info. Thanks! John L NanCe via CatKB.com wrote:> Kiran wrote:> ><http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=whyc> >http://catnutrition.org/obesity.html : > >http://catinfo.org/> >http://www.catinfo.org/commercialcannedfoods.htm :> > Every one of these articles are written by "holistic" veterinarinas. You say that like it somehow makes them less credible. FYI they have the same schooling and same qualifications as conventional veterinarians, along with even more education in holistic health care.>Do you have any other sources from conventional>animal nutritionists?Would Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins suffice? She's worked for both Hill's and Purina, developed the Purina D/M canned diet and sold the patent to them. The fact that she recommends against their dry version of the D/M diet is quite telling. There is an excellent article she wrote that *all* cat owners should read here: http://www.catnutrition.org/diabetes.htmShe says that NO cat should eat dry food. She has a new website for owners of diabetic cats that is very much against dry food diets and should also be read by *all* cat owners:http://www.yourdiabeticcat.comPeople need to wake up and quit sacrificing their cats' health for the sake of convenience. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that you shouldn't be feeding an obligate carnivore like it's a cow. NanCe via CatKB.com wrote:> Kiran wrote:> ><http://www.littlebigcat.com/index.php?action=library&act=show&item=whyc> >http://catnutrition.org/obesity.html : > >http://catinfo.org/> >http://www.catinfo.org/commercialcannedfoods.htm :> > Every one of these articles are written by "holistic" veterinarinas. You say that like it somehow makes them less credible. FYI they have the same schooling and same qualifications as conventional veterinarians, along with even more education in holistic health care.>Do you> have any other sources from conventional animal nutritionists?> Would Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins suffice? She's worked for both Hill's and Purina, developed the Purina D/M canned diet and sold the patent to them. The fact that she recommends against their dry version of the D/M diet is quite telling. There is an excellent article she wrote that *all* cat owners should read here: http://www.catnutrition.org/diabetes.htmShe says that NO cat should eat dry food. She has a new website for owners of diabetic cats that is very much against dry food diets and should also be read by *all* cat owners: http://www.yourdiabeticcat.comPeople need to wake up and quit sacrificing their cats' health for the sake of convenience. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that you shouldn't be feeding an obligate carnivore like it's a cow. > Hi! I have a 16 yr old diabetic. She recently had some unrelated health > issues, and I stumbled upon felinediabetes.com This is an extremely helpful [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > who have done the research on it will tell you that it is very low quality > food, and not the best thing to be feeding. D/M comes canned as well. It's actually fairly high protein and meat is the main ingredient. -L. I use hairball kibble and buy it in 12 lb bags so as soon as I get home, I open the bag and divide it up into smaller Ziploc bags. I store all the bags in a cool dry place like the hall closet and they seem to do alright. The kibble stays moist enough to do it's job and the cats act like they're getting a fresh new bag of cat food. Of course, removing as much air from the Ziplocs before I close them really helps. Maybe putting smaller amounts in Ziplocs, 4lbs or 3lbs each, will help you. If you want to add moisture to the food in her bowl, would adding tuna juice, or mixing in a teaspoon or so of wet cat food be okay for her? Surely your vet could help with some suggestions. If your vet won't help with this issue, call someone else. I would want my vet to care about how my cat was eating and whether or not she was enjoying meal time. Maybe do some research on the internet or by speaking with several different vet's about this issue will help. Surely there is a solution out there, surely there are ways to improve her food and make sure her health needs are met. Eating rocks doesn't sound enjoyable. Good luck and I wish you and your cat well :) > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Lipwak |
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