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Cat Forum / General Topics / October 2005Declawing challenge
I''ve seen tons of posts on these cat groups about declawing. I would prefer to not declaw my new kitten, so i'm issuing this challenge. I challenge anyone out there to come up with a way to not get this kitten declawed and still have hands/feet/etc. left at the end of the day and not have a giant pool of blood from the cats claws on my floor. (Especially if it is my blood which I prefer to keep inside my body.) I don't want to hear how bad declawing is. I've heard it all, i've seen it all. I want positive steps that can be taken by me or any cat owner to get the cat to not scratch me to peaces. (The things they sell at the pet store to slip over cats claws are not an option.....they are too big for my tiny kittens claws......he is about nine weeks old now.) So I throw down the gauntlet, here is your opportunity as a fervent declawing foe to put your money where your mouth is. ------------------------------------------ http://www.barnabascollins.blogspot.com Soft paws or Soft Claws is the alternative Challenge taken, answered and won in less than five minutes of your post may not be the most money saving way but the most humane way http://www.safepetproducts.com/pilot.asp?pg=softpaws_info&GCID=S16049x006&KEYWOR D=soft+paws Understanding the Motivation of the Scratching Behavior Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology, Director of the Behavior Clinic Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine If you make the moral decision to join the ranks of the claw conservatives, what do you do when your cat starts tearing up your furniture? Are there things you can do to circumvent the problem, or do you just have to lock your furniture away behind closed doors? The answers are yes, there are, and no, you don't have to, but to make inroads on this thorny problem, it helps to understand the motivation of the scratching behavior. The simple explanation that furniture clawing is primarily conducted to sharpen the claws just is not true. To use an analogy, why would dragging a bunch of fishhooks across an armchair do anything to improve the sharpness of their barbs? Furniture clawing does not sharpen the claws; it conditions them by exercising muscles and helping to shuck off dead nail husks (which may be found on the ground beneath a well-used scratching site). Another reason why cats stretch up and sink their claws into furniture is that it feels good. We all enjoy a good stretch, especially after a nap. But the story doesn't end there. Scratching and clawing at various objects is also a form of visual and olfactory marking behavior. The visual marking aspect is easy to appreciate. The mark says, "Garfield was here." Remember at school when all the property was inscribed with hieroglyphics such as "This desk belongs to John Smith"? It's the same principle. Because of this, claw marks are always strategically positioned in a highly visible location, such as the arm of a couch facing the door (not the one facing the wall). The olfactory component of scratching adds a more subtle component to this marking behavior. Scent marking to a cat is like writing to a person, conveying a message long after the sender has gone. Pheromonal odors released from scent glands in the paws leave no doubt in another feline mind as to exactly who Garfield was and probably what he was thinking when he last passed by. It's as if the visual cue were a signpost directing attention to the more detailed message, This is one explanation of why declawed cats continue to go through the motions of furniture scratching when they have no claws and no visible fruits of their labor. Another explanation for the vacuous scratching of such cats is that they are ritualistically acting out behavior that is hardwired into their neural circuits. In other words, they keep doing it even when there is no apparent reason to do so, because they feel compelled. As scratching has a marking function, and marking is intensified by stress, the frequency of scratching should increase as tensions build, and this does indeed appear to be the case. In one situation , a cat began to scratch the edge of an open door to the living room when a new cat was introduced to the home. This territorial response mirrors what happens with urine marking, too. Taking things a little further, it should be possible for a naturalistic behavior such as scratching to be expressed compulsively. The result would be excessive and apparently pointless furniture scratching, and careful examination of the situation might reveal a sensitive individual under stress. Theoretically, the tendency to respond to stress in this way would run in families, and furniture clawing appears to do just that. It is common knowledge that to avoid owning a compulsive scratcher, you should select a kitten from parents who do not indulge in this behavior to excess. Care should be exercised in interpreting this as evidence of a genetic tendency for anxiety, however, as learning is known to be involved when it comes to scratching. A careful analysis would have to be made before definitive conclusions could be drawn about the various contributions of nature and nurture, of temperament and learning, to the transmission of this behavior from one generation to another. It would be an interesting study and one that would point the way forward. Treatment of compulsive scratch marking (if that's what it is) would involve minimizing environmental stress such as intercat conflict, redirecting the scratching onto an acceptable target, and perhaps in refractory cases the judicious use of anxiety-reducing medication. This strategy reflects the influence of treatments developed for another form of compulsive marking behavior, compulsive urine marking. Let's suppose for a moment that we are dealing not with a compulsive cat but simply with one that periodically blows off steam by shredding a couple of high-profile chairs around the house. This is not a cat for the obsessive-compulsive disorder clinic, but merely one who needs to have its energies channeled along more acceptable lines. This is where the scratching post comes in, and scratching posts do work if you know something about how to choose them and where to place them. The best teacher of the noble art of scratching is the cat's own mother, but if she isn't around or isn't trained to use a scratching post, that leaves it all up to us. The first rule is that scratching posts should be tall enough for the cat to stretch up full length and arch its back as it sinks its claws in. Also, at least one post should be positioned close to your cat's normal resting area. It's typical for a cat to want to have a good clawing stretch after a decent sleep. The second rule is that scratching posts should be absolutely secure. Cats think there's nothing worse than having the post wobble or fall over when they're in the middle of a good stretch. The third rule is, the post has to be covered with the right kind of stuff. Tightly wrapped, uninteresting carpet is out, and burlap and other easily shreddable things are in. Cats prefer vertically oriented fibers, as this orientation lends itself to shredding. Many owners change a scratching post when it is old and tattered. This is dead wrong, as shredding indicate frequent use and that is exactly what you want. Half the fun cats experience from a scratching post derives from getting their claws stuck in the material and leaving wispy threads as testimony of their erstwhile presence. More than one post is usually preferred, perhaps one for each high-traffic area of the house. Different kinds of scratching posts will provide different challenges, so owners can profitably get quite creative. A large log (with bark) is apparently lots of fun and especially good for those conditioning functions. Scratching posts should start out in front of previously scratch-marked locations or at least in high-profile sites. It may be awkward for the humans to have to circumnavigate an assortment of burlapwrapped posts in the center of living areas, especially at night when the lights are out, but fear not, these obstacles can be inched to more-convenient locations over time. Sometimes a reluctant cat can be persuaded to start using a scratching post by trickery. One of the tricks is to lace with catnip the fabric bound to the post. It has been estimated that only a third of cats experience the seductive effects of catnip (for the others, alternative olfactory attractions could be devised), but the reason for this discrepancy remains obscure. Partakers roll around in apparent ecstasy, salivating and looking for all the world like a female in heat. Some people believe that the response to catnip is sexual, but there are several strikes against this proposal. A compelling one is that catnip elicits the same heatlike behavior in both males and females. However, we now know sexual behaviors are not exclusive for one sex or the other, just more likely in a particular sex, so one cannot absolutely rule out this theory. It has also been suggested that catnip evokes a predatory response, but that interpretation has been challenged because there are responses shown by cats under the influence of catnip that are not part of the cat's normal predatory behavioral repertoire. It would seem counterproductive, for example, for a cat to salivate its way toward an unsuspecting prey, pausing occasionally to roll on its back and wriggle around on the ground. The prospective lunch may die laughing, but that would be the cat's only hope. Whatever the correct explanation for the effects of catnip, it appears to be a lot of fun for cats and may even attract them to a desired location, such as a scratching post, for instance. While attracting your cat to the desired location for its scratching, it is important simultaneously to deter the scratching of inappropriate sites, such as your stereo speakers or the arm of your favorite chair. To do this you can take advantage of the cat's normal aversion to aluminum foil or plastic wrap by applying either material around target areas. For difficult-to-wrap locations, aversive odors, such as citrus-scented sprays, can be applied, often to good effect. The French behaviorist Dr. Pageat believes that pheromone-containing oily secretions from the glands between the cat's eyes and ears serve as an olfactory deterrent to scratching. The message sent is "Already claimed-paws off." If all of the above fails, there is a relatively new solution to furniture scratching that works in some cases at least, the use of Soft Paws. These soft plastic caps are simply glued onto the cat's claws, rendering them less pointy and less likely to damage fabric. Some people are jubilant about the success they have had with these faux nails. They come in several colors, too, so your cat can sport a selection of fashionable colors while still being able to enjoy a good, well-anchored stretch and some undetectable scent-marking behavior. Soft Paws can be quite a surprise for an unsuspecting veterinarian. Another reason why cats scratch furniture excessively: The behavior can be reinforced by conditioning. Getting attention for engaging in a behavior will usually increase the frequency of that behavior. A detailed account of the behavior is needed to establish where and when it occurs, and what precedes and what follows the cat's actions. Only with such attention to fine detail can effective behavior modification programs be designed. There are many imaginative and conventional solutions that can be tried before resorting to the travesty of amputation. To update an old saying, there's more than one way to cure a cat. >Soft paws or Soft Claws is the alternative > Challenge taken, answered and won in less than five minutes of your post >may not be the most money saving way but the most humane way No it's not. THE CAT'S PAWS ARE TOO SMALL RIGHT NOW. . Maybe six months, a year from from now they may fit but right now they are too big for this kittens tiny paws. >If you make the moral decision to join the ranks of the claw conservatives, >what do you do when your cat starts tearing up your furniture? Again it is not clawing the furniture, it clawing arms and legs. Arms and legs attached to a human body, arms and legs that bleed, arms and legs the feel pain. >The mark says, "Garfield was here." Remember at school >when all the property was inscribed with hieroglyphics such as "This desk >belongs to John Smith"? It's the same principle. Because of this, claw marks >are always strategically positioned in a highly visible location, such as >the arm of a couch facing the door (not the one facing the wall). My doctor can tell the cat was there by the scratches on my arms and legs. >Sometimes a reluctant cat can be persuaded to start using a scratching post >by trickery. One of the tricks is to lace with catnip the fabric bound to >the post Except that cat says to itself the human leg/arm is more fun. (First it moves and two is warmer.) > It has been estimated that only a third of cats experience the >seductive effects of catnip (for the others, alternative olfactory >attractions could be devised), but the reason for this discrepancy remains >obscure. This kitten is a little over two months old. My undestanding is cat nip won't work on a cat until at least eight months. ------------------------------------------ http://www.barnabascollins.blogspot.com > This kitten is a little over two months old. My undestanding is > cat nip won't work on a cat until at least eight months. oh. I wasn't going to throw my 2c in because your original post sounded like a troll (still does, btw; why would you have to defend not mutilating something?), but... You have a kitten that should have still been with it's mum/siblings for another month learning how to be a cat; at that age they barely know how to use their claws, much less how *not* to use them. All kittens at that age are named "Velcro". And you said "new" at some point, so alongside everything else the kitten's getting used to a totally different physical and social environment. In the meantime you might want to start on the "don't scratch me" routine: - when the cat grabs you with his claws, don't pull away; make a distressed "miaow" sound - don't play fight with your bare hands, a leather glove is good, distance toys (a feather on a string, laser-pointer, wind up mouse) are better. Continue to pet and cuddle the cat barehanded of course. As far as the sneak attacks are concerned, wear long pants and long-sleeved shirts. Don't worry; it'll only be for a few weeks at most. If the cat was much older I'd opine that it was a minor behavioural problem brought on by incompetent previous or current owners but not too difficult to smooth out. Pat 30 something kittens. HOWEDY rpl, > > This kitten is a little over two months old. > > My undestanding is cat nip won't work on a cat > > until at least eight months. That's sheer idiocy. > oh. > > I wasn't going to throw my 2c in because your original > post sounded like a troll (still does, btw; why would > you have to defend not mutilating something?), but... That's kindly of you. The Amazing Puppy Wizard wasn't gonna IDENTIFY EXXXPOSE and DISCREDIT you as a double talkin blowhard pubicly till you put your two cents worth in. Let's talk about spay / neutering, for starters? Then we can talk about claws. > You have a kitten that should have still been with it's > mum/siblings for another month learning how to be a cat; That's sheer idiocy. Six weeks is apupritate for separatin pups and kitty kats from their mothers. > at that age they barely know how to use their claws, DUH??? > much less how *not* to use them. That's MORE IDIOCY! > All kittens at that age are named "Velcro". Naaaah? > And you said "new" at some point, so alongside everything > else the kitten's getting used to a totally different > physical and social environment. You're just FULL of valuable information! > In the meantime you might want to start on the > "don't scratch me" routine: Oooops! That's HOWE COME KATS LEARN TO ATTACK PEOPLE the same same as puppys do. Hey pat? Did you know dogs and kitty kats train the same same for the same reasons? > - when the cat grabs you with his claws, don't > pull away; make a distressed "miaow" sound That'll reinforce the behavior just to watch you react. > - don't play fight with your bare hands, > a leather glove is good, That's even more IDIOTIC. The kat won't know or care if you're wearin a glove. > distance toys (a feather on a string, laser- > pointer, wind up mouse) are better. Yeah, but they won't TRAIN the kat not to be sharp on skin, will it, rp. Perhaps you should stick to advice you know sumpthin about? > Continue to pet and cuddle the cat barehanded of course. Do tell? > As far as the sneak attacks are concerned, wear > long pants and long-sleeved shirts. Don't worry; > it'll only be for a few weeks at most. That's insane. > If the cat was much older I'd opine that it was a > minor behavioural problem brought on by incompetent > previous or current owners but not too difficult to > smooth out. BWEEEEHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!! > Pat > 30 something kittens. PFFFT! Punishment Deranges Behavior. "NO!" Does NOT Have Any Behavioral Function EXCEPT To DERANGE Behaviors. Here's professor dermer pryor: From: Marshall Dermer (der...@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu) Subject: Re: Jerry's Dog Training Manual Date: 2001-07-12 06:49:13 PST And how do we know this aspect of his advice is right? Jerry is not God and his manual is not the Bible. His advice could be subject to an empirical analysis. (Also, it is best to killfile posts from the few regulars here who are either ill-tempered, ill-mannered, or just plain ill.), --Marshall "At this point, "No" does not have any behavioral function. But, if you say "No,"pick up the puppy by its neck and shake it a bit, and the frequency of the biting decreases then you will have achieved too things. First, the frequency of unwanted chewing has decreased; and two, you have established "No" as a conditioned punisher. How much neck pulling and shaking? Just the minimum necessary to decrease the unwanted biting. **********IS THAT A CONSISTENT 5 SECONDS?************ When our dog was a puppy, "No" came before mild forms of punishment (I would hold my dog's mouth closed for a few seconds.) whereas "Bad Dog" came before stronger punishement (the kind discussed above). "No" is usually sufficient but sometimes I use "Bad Dog" to stop a behavior. "Bad Dog" ALWAYS works," marshall dermer, research professor of ANAL-ytic behaviorISM at UofWI. For MOORE animal abuse, please visit dr p. BWAHAHAHHAHAAAA!!!!! That's INSANE. Ain't it. Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED: "We Are Lucky To Have You, And More People Should Come To Their Senses And Support Your Valuable Work. God Bless The Puppy Wizard," Professor Marshall Dermer, Dept Of ANAL-ytic Behavior, UofWI. From: "Marshall Dermer" <der...@csd.uwm.edu> To: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@earthlink.net> Sent: Friday, July 23, 2004 2:53 PM Subject: God Bless The Puppy Wizard Dear Mr. Puppy Wizard, I have, of late, come to recognize your genius and now must applaud your attempts to save animals from painful training procedures. You are indeed a hero, a man of exceptional talent, who tirelessly devotes his days to crafting posts to alert the world to animal abuse. We are lucky to have you, and more people should come to their senses and support your valuable work. Have you thought of establishing a nonprofit charity to fund your important work? Have you thought about holding a press conference so others can learn of your highly worthwhile and significant work? In closing, my only suggestion is that you try to keep your messages short for most readers may refuse to read a long message even if it is from the wise, heroic Puppy Wizard. I wish you well in your endeavors. --Marshall Dermer Subject: < BEFORE -> "Jerry, You filthy, Unctuous, No Good Charlatan," < AFTER -> "Thank You Jerry For Putting Up With A Constant Barrage Of Really Infantile Crap At The Hands Of Supposedly Adult Dog Lovers. 'Naive' Is Believing You Can Terrorize A Dog Into Good Behavior," Robert Crim. >Subject: Re: Fritz---a retrospective >Date: 02/05/1999 [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > be in a jail cell right now for turning you into the pile > of sh.t you really are Hey, Howe, you really are a wacko, eh? Crim wrote this about *YOU,* you insipid piece of cow dung! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! -- Dogman mailto:dog...@i1.net http://www.i1.net/~dogman ===================== > On Thu, 17 Jun 1999 20:24:15 -0700, dogsnus <"Terri"@cyberhighway> Wrote:> > Hey, do like me, and killfile Jerry. > He has millions of people aleady reading his posts and > watching him extract his soggy foot out of his mouth! > Out of these MILLIONS, I've only seen 2 naive childs > come forward and actually believe in his training manual. Robert Crim writes: I assume that I and my wife are those two naive childs since I freely admit to having read and, I hope, understood enough of the manual and it's counterparts by John Fisher and the posts of Marilyn Rammell to believe and use it. This naive child would like to say thank you to both Jerry and Marilyn for putting up with a constant barrage of really infantile crap at the hands of supposedly adult dog lovers. The other naive child (LSW) has to put up with the nagging idea that if people like them had been posting earlier, maybe we would not have had to hold the head of a really magnificent animal in our arms while he was given the needle and having to hug him and wait until he gasped his last gasp. To my mind, "naive" is believing you can terrorize a dog. Naive is believing that people that hide behind fake names are more honest than people that use their real names. Naive is thinking that dilettante dog breeders and amateur "trainers" like Joey (lyingdogDUMMY, j.h.) are the equal or better than those that have studied and lived by their craft for decades. "Stupid" is believing that people do not see kindergarten level insults for what they are. Really stupid is believing that people like Jerry Howe and Marilyn Rammell are going to just go away because you people act like fools. Why do you act like fools? I really have no idea, and I don't really care. > And, to date: I've not seen ONE come forward and > actually admit to buying and having success with his > little black box. I think I'm going to get one myself for Father's day and take it down to the Animal Shelter for their use and testing. You would never believe the results, so you'll never know. > Anyone by now that doesn't see a scam man coming by > Jerry's posts deserves to get what is sure to be coming > to him! LOL! I don't see a "scam man", so I guess I and Longsuffering Wife and Rollei will just have to get what we deserve, eh? As Joey (Dogman) says, "poor Rollei.".......right. >Terri Yes it was, and that is sad. Robert, Longsuffering Wife and Rollei (do I get to listen to the box first?) =========== Crim wrote THAT about *YOU,* tommy, "you insipid piece of cow dung!" BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com> To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com> Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:50:51 -0400 Dear Jerry, I paged through some of the "dog business" and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising from professors of behavior analysis. I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson (Pavlov's last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio University. I even got to spend a night at Sam's house. There is no question but that you are a spiritual brother to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom knew that the dog's great capacity for love was the key to shaping doggie behavior. Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are both well documented Pavlovian techniques. Even so humorless a chap as B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose "The Misbehavior of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your methods and their deep roots in scientific (as opposed to commercial) psychology. George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H. you may find my resume in Who's Who in Science and Technology From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net> Date: Wed, 03 Nov 2004 17:26:31 GMT Subject: Dr. George VonHilshimer Writes: "No Loving, No Learning." HOWEDY People, Perhaps the PROBLEM is "TOO MANY WORDS?" From: "The Puppy Wizard" <ThePuppyWiz...@EarthLink.Net> To: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com> Sent: Friday, October 29, 2004 4:40 AM Subject: Fw: Counter Cruising must stop > From: "diannes" <dian...@bolt.sonic.net> > Newsgroups: rec.pets.dogs.behavior [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > > > > then there must be a flaw in the philosophy > > > > > underlying that technique. > > > > Ditto for dog training. No failure nor flaw of method > > > > is involved - that's just acceptance of reality. > > > First of all, I didn't say that there was a flaw in the > > > method, though anyone is welcome to make that > > > leap. > > > I said there was a flaw in the underlying philosophy > > > and its model of learning. > > Correction accepted. I think that perhaps we are using > > terminology differently here. Here is my use of the terms: Jerry, I don't know where you find these folk who can't read. > In order to use negative reinforcement, one must > typically administer the aversive stimulus in order > to be able to terminate it. This is not negative reinforcement. Negative means no. Positive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog, reward emitted immediately by trainer; Negative reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog, no response by trainer; Aversive reinforcement = behavior emitted by dog, aversive stimuli emitted immediately by trainer; The term "reinforcement is used only tentatively with "aversion" because aversive stimuli (aka punishment) typically derange learning and are not followed by clean learning curves equivalent to those which follow reward or positive reinforcement; Escape conditioning = dog has an aversive stimulus applied without any dog related reason and when behavior is emitted aversive stim is immediately turned off . There is some indication that Escape Conditioning works in a manner closely approximating reward; but, ear pinch? -- too aversive. I remind you that you should beat them over the head with "The Misbehavior of Organisms" by Breland and Breland, published in B.F. Skinner's CUMULATIVE RECORD. Ignored by most profs of psychology, but the distillation of his work. NO PUNISHMENT. Must pay attention to who is the animal? His evolution, his development, and his personal history - cannot train without respect for who is the dog? So says the BIG TIME operant conditioning guru - and you can also refer back to MARY COVER JONES (mother of scientific systematic psychology), no loving, no learning. I suppose I could wire up a dog so that his brain was badly interrupted and the loving method of puppy training might not work well - but it would still work better than the methods used by dominatrix and their ilk. Lovingly applied ethological techniques like the one espoused by the Wizard of ALL puppies work for all dogs, for that matter for all mammals higher than cat. Indeed, they will work for cats if trainer is warmly competent. You can see this in Key West on any sunny day. Housecats performing quite happily. Fondly, Dr. Von From: TooCool (larrym...@hotmail.com) The Puppy Wizard's Wits End Training Method I have studied canine behavior and dog training for years. I have a huge library that covers every system of training. The Puppy Wizard's (Jerry Howe's) Wits' End Training Method is by far the most scientific, the most advanced, the kindest, the quickest and the most effective training method yet discovered. It is not an assortment of training tips and tricks; it is a logically consistent system. Every behavior problem and every obedience skill is treated in the same logically consistent manner. Please study his manual carefully. Please endeavor to understand the basis of his system and please follow his directions exactly. His manual is a masterpiece. It is dense with theory, with explanation, with detailed descriptions about why behavior problems occur and how their solution should be approached. One should not pick and choose from among his methods based upon what you personally like or dislike. His is not a bag of tricks but a complete and integrated system for not only training a dog but for raising a loving companion. When I once said to Jerry that his system creates for you the dog of your dreams, his response was that it produces for your dog the owner of his dreams. You see, Jerry has discovered that if you are gentle with your dog then he will be gentle with you, if you praise your dog every time he looks at you, then you will become the center of your dogs world, if you use Jerry's sound distraction with praise, then it takes just minutes-sometimes merely seconds-to train your dog to not misbehave (even in your absence) (Just 15 seconds this morning to train my 10 week old puppy to lie quietly and let me clip his nails). Using Jerry's scientific method (sound distraction / praise / alteration / variation) it takes just minutes to train you dog to respond to your commands. What a pleasure it was for me to see my 6 week old puppy running as fast has his wobbly little legs would carry him in response to my recall command-and he comes running every time I call no matter where we are or what he is doing. At ten weeks old now, my puppy never strains upon his leash thanks to Jerry's hot & cold exercises and his Family Pack Leadership exercises. Jerry has discovered that if you scold your dog, if you scream at him, if you intimidate him, if you hurt him, if you force him then his natural response is to oppose you. Is Jerry a nut? It doesn't make any difference to me whether he is or not. It is a logical fallacy to judge a person's ideas based upon their personality. As far as dogs are concerned, Jerry wears his heart upon his sleeve. It touches him deeply when he hears of trainers forcing, intimidating, scolding or hurting dogs. More than that, he knows that force is not effective and that it will certainly lead to behavior problems; sometime problems so severe that people put their dogs down because of those problems. I believe that it is natural for humans to want to control their dog by force. Jerry knows this too. We have all been at our wits' end, haven't we? Dogs have a natural tendency to mimic. In scientific literature it is referred to allelomimetic behavior. Dogs respond in like kind to force; they respond in like kind to praise. Don't bribe your dog with treats; give him what he wants most-your kind attention. Give him your praise. You will be astonished at how your dog 's anxiety will dissipate and how their behavior problems will dissipate along with their anxiety. Treat Jerry Howe's (The Puppy Wizard) Wits' End Training Method as a scientific principle just as you would the law of gravity and you will have astounding success. Dog behavior is just as scientific as is gravity. If you follow Jerry's puppy rules you will get a sweet little Magwai; if you don't you will surely get a little gremlin (anyone see The Gremlins?). --Larry From: Mike (m.bidd...@ns.sympatico.ca) Subject: Re: Info. on the puppy wizard? Date: 2004-07-18 14:27:02 PST > > Oh, and did I mention his methods work, ya nuff said. > > Mike > Ok Mike which part worked for you? It helped clear problems from my dogs in the field using the can penny distraction technique. Works like a charm. My dogs get distracted easy from their jobs ie, retrieving or training to find lost people, oh did I mention that I am a Search and Rescue Team Leader. Sorry that slipped my mind. I have read volumes of training books and don't know where people get that Jerry copied others work as I have NEVER come across his methods before. I would like to see proof. Just like Jerry outlined I eliminated problems one at at time as they arose. I used to try and train to the way I wanted them but this is backward, you train out the problems leaving what you want left over. Funny part is the second dog who had the same problems as the other didn't need correcting for some of his habits after I cleared it from the first dog. Seemed he learned through osmosis. Nice side benefit there. It nearly came to giving them up to a 3rd party trainer as they were not performing well. The VAST majority of working dog trainers are agressive in their actions with the dogs. I tried it and it didn't work and guess what I was at my "Whits End" then someone I new turned me onto Jerry and the rest is history. I referred friends and families to Jerry's manual and all have had great results. Starting puppies out on the distraction technique is especially good because they never develop the habit. I had my sisters dog healing, sitting and down stay reliably at 8-9 weeks. The first night home following Jerrys advice we ditched the crate and put the pup on the floor beside the bed and after 2 whimpers NOT A SOUND OUT OF THAT DOG FOR 6 HRS! first night, that has never happened in all my days. Sorry, the man understands dogs its that simple. Mike "Ama...@DCFWatch.com" wrote: No, the dog learned that I would hold still the second she began to pull. She would pull to go where *she* wanted. Well if she wanted to stop and go in another direction.. say to sniff my neighbors yard.. she learned if she wanted to do it I would stop walking and she could go.. and if there wasn't enough slack on her lead she would just pull me. Then when she got done doing *her* thing, she woudl heel.. smile at me and wait for me to say "let's go" and finish *my* thing. I would refuse to move .. i looked like an idiot.. freezing mid walk for minutes waiting for *my* dog to heel and give *me* permission to go again. I did the treats and the let's go... she got to do her stuff and get a cookie.. if she even wanted the cookie. I wound up calling Jerry.. as I have a half red nose pit and half amstaff.. who is incredibly protective.. we had a new pup on the way.. and i needed help.. i followed petsmarts trainnign guides.. memorized them... and they *did* work, don't get me wrong.. but only when my pet wanted a cookie or felt the cookie was better than what she wanted.. which was not often. She quickly learned to ignore my commands if she could see my hands were empty. So I called Jerry... he chatted me for about an hour and a half.. gave me his link... and even when i had probs intro'ing the pup he called me withn i5 mins of my email for help at 10pm on a sunday night. One.. singular.. uno family pack exercise after the hot and cold exercise and i could zig zag down my street.. about face .. whatever.. and never had tension. two men were acrossed the street and she walked right by them... ordinarily she'd snarl and protect us. And in two days.. my dog.. who bit the puppy if he even looked like he was going near my husband or kids.. is nursing him every hour.. cleaning him.. rough housing gently.. and teaching him to go potty outside.. actually watches him to make sure he doesn't go in the house... and has milk.. which is awesome since she's 19 months old and has never had a litter. She also has stopped barking non stop at our neighbor's dogs and pig.. does not bark at eveyr car that drives by and has stopped jumping on people. she's even starting to ignore our cat who has lived on her dome litter box and our window sill (literally) for over a year and a half. She also does her commands on cue.. and doesn't look for a treat. From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com> Subject: The Amazing Jerry's take on psychobabble Date: Fri, 29 Jul 2005 12:13:44 -0400 You might improve the learning of folk who actually live with and train dogs to do useful things if you excluded everyone who uses psychobabble from your lists. I recommend to all of you who wish to taste the flavor of sensible animal behaviorists to read THE MISBEHAVIOR OF ORGANISMS, Breland and Breland. This married pair of psychologists began the long trail of highly trained animals who are symbolized by Shamu eating a mackrel from a girl's hand instead of eating the much more tasty pretty girl who is exactly the size of the natural food of killer whales, seals. Yum! The essay, by the way, is a chapter in B.F. Skinner's summing up book, CUMULATIVE RECORD. They include a sentence which more or less says, "unless you understand the personal history of the particular animal, and the history of this animal's species and group, the developmental history of the animal, you cannot effectively train the animal. Pigs root and hen's scratch, if you try to train hens without scratching or pigs without scratching or pigeons without pecking, you aren't going to have much success. A conditional reflex is one which is learned, the original primitive reflex occurs no matter what the history of the animal, and is hard wired. If you train the animal to respond, say by ringing a bell immediately before turning on a bright light, then you've taught the animal and made his native reflex of pupil constriction conditional upon the ringing of a bell. Thorndyke added some terminology to this kind of training and insisted that when you train the animal to make gross motor responses that this learning is "instrumental", the animal takes action and uses an instrument. The Russian word translated as "conditional" in all other contexts was mistranslated by Pavlov's American translator, Horsley Gannt, as "conditioned" and so American psychology went haring after phantasmagora. The major theorists for the development of the language of operant conditioning are Edward Thorndike, John Watson, and B. F. Skinner. Their approach to behaviorism played a major role in the development of American psychology. They proposed that learning is the result of the application of consequences; that is, learners begin to connect certain responses with certain stimuli. This connection causes the probability of the response to change (i.e., learning occurs.) Thorndike labeled this type of learning instrumental. Using consequences, he taught kittens to manipulate a latch (e.g., an instrument). Skinner renamed instrumental as "operant" because in this learning, one is "operating" on, and is influenced by, the environment. Where classical conditioning illustrates S-->R learning, operant conditioning is often viewed as R-->S learning since it is the consequence that follows the response that influences whether the response is likely or unlikely to occur again. It is through operant conditioning that voluntary responses are learned. One should note that Russian Psychology did very well without the operant language, and only pettifogging university professors ought to worry about what kind of label we attach to the learning. Pfui! Even Skinner understood this! And please note if you saw the original movie, THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, you saw a Chinese psychologist who was based on Andrew Salter, CONDITIONED REFLEX THERAPY. Alas, Salter didn't have a Ph.D., but he basically rescued us from the long Freudian nightmare and returned psychotherapy to a scientific basis. Alas, the 2nd movie didn't even cite Salter as a source. "...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation, inhibition and disinhibition." Ivan P. Pavlov George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H. What's important is, "does Shamu reliably eat the fish and not the pretty girl?" George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R. From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com To: <d...@arcane-computing.com Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM Subject: Doggy advice Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below. I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything. I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very competent at living with dogs. I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about dogs doing this and that, for example: whining, humping, hunching, pacing, self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking, spinning, prolonged barking, barking at shadows, overstimulated barking, fighting, bullying other dogs, compulsive digging, compulsive scratching, compulsive chewing, frantic behavior, chasing light, chasing shadow, stealing food, digging in garbage can, loosing house (toilet) training. inappropriate fearfulness aggression. The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of the intervening time working with animals (including the human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related). You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans. As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving care. George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate, Academy of Behavioral Medicine "Linda" <llindaleedan...@msn.com wrote in message news: I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age. I do not know what started the problem but he came aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone and could play with any dog. He was well socialized ad I took him with me everywhere. At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens Test except he could let me leave him. I had used clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but it was not working on his aggression problem. I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet, trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse. They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not working as he was becoming more aggressive. I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph. D. 400 miles away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse. I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE LEASH", ETC looking for help. We finally went to Purdue University Small Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he had fear aggression, punishment would not work, use the gentle leader and when out walking and he got stressed have the people stop until he could get in control using treats, and work on clicker training. At that point I knew more about clicker training and using the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he would not come when I called him and would run away when I tried to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and women who hasn't trained her dog" I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two were so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one said I should give up on him and kill him but they would say "You have to realize he is dangerous and you are responsible for him." *(You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.) As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog. He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could not believe him even when I downloaded the manual. The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End. I had been working for 18 months! Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the can sound and he looked at me like uhn? I used it three more times and we got to the other dog- -the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked on by. When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at me like "you must be out of your mind" The results can make a believer!!! Three weeks since beginning the Wits End Training Manual program I walked him without the gentle leader in a busy shopping area with many dogs. He just seemed to not notice any one. When people talked to him or ask his name he would look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him. I still can not believe the change in him--we can now enjoy life out in public. If I had not found the Wits End method I know there was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone Through all this he never growled at me, guarded his toys or food or showed any sign of aggression with me. My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!! I know most people would have given up on him a long time ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ but only with the right approach-sound and praise. I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!! ================================ From: Linda Daniel To: Jerry Howe Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would save so many lives. I know at times I was so frustrated I thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would have but many people would have. The world just does not know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually solve problems. We will be here until late April and we really have no plans- -just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time you could meet us would be great. I drive so I would be happy to come to you anytime anywhere! We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy. He really just is not concerned about people passing, even those on rollerblades! I have always used a gentle leader in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!! Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose. He never pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have a hard time getting him going--at times I think he could smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes. I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!! I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having a problem with other people and dogs. I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with treats--one really good suggestions was to have people coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused and not move until we backed away- - can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street until I get his attention with treats. They also suggested the possibility of using drugs-prozac- but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make him less fearful and then he might attack or become more sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice. ---------------------------------- ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( |\ _.-'~~""'~`'~) /, ~-,__,,,.'~ ,-;;--'' |,4) ./ ' ; ;/' '-~~;'@ ( ; ; _.--'' _.-_..' .;.' (,_..----''' (,..--'' Meow /),,/) ( ' ; ') (,,)-(,,) /),,/) (' ; ') kiss me (,,)-(,,) /),,/) ( ; ' ) kiss me here (,,)-(,,) /),,/) ( ; ) kiss me here (,,)-(,,) /) ( * ) and KISS ME HERE! (,,)-(,,) The Amazing Pussy Wizard <{@); ~ } > <{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}> http://www.irishdogs.ie/Information/Wits_End_Dog_Training.pdf Please DON'T BE The Amazing Pussy Wizard's PREY. IT AIN'T PRETTY. <{@); ~ } > > HOWEDY rpl, > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > That's sheer idiocy. That's also somebody else's "sheer idiocy"; wouldn't know; only time I've used catnip is to (quickly) transfer a cat from scratching the furniture to using a scratching post. >> oh. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > as a double talkin blowhard pubicly till you put > your two cents worth in. I'd appreciate your not goin' "pubic" about me at all. > Let's talk about spay / > neutering, for starters? Got nuthin' to do with the thread at all at this level... unless of course you were planning on going "pubic" then by all means, lets. > Then we can talk about claws. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That's sheer idiocy. Six weeks is apupritate for > separatin pups and kitty kats from their mothers. "six weeks" is a pet store paradigm; it works for them but it's pretty artificial; note that the kittens spend a couple weeks getting shots and early neutered and the litter's still together in that time. The normal age to transfer from a mothered litter to an owner is 10-12 weeks. >> at that age they barely know how to use their claws, > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Naaaah? geez, gettin' pretty verbose aren't you. >> And you said "new" at some point, so alongside everything >> else the kitten's getting used to a totally different >> physical and social environment. > > You're just FULL of valuable information! most people'd say I was full of somethin' to be sure. >> In the meantime you might want to start on the >> "don't scratch me" routine: > > Oooops! That's HOWE COME KATS LEARN TO ATTACK PEOPLE > the same same as puppys do. Hey pat? Did you know dogs > and kitty kats train the same same for the same reasons? nope I didn't. reason bein' they generally don't. >> - when the cat grabs you with his claws, don't >> pull away; make a distressed "miaow" sound > > That'll reinforce the behavior just to watch you react. now you're just hypothesizing that cats are evil. You're steppin' on your own toes here. Kitten in question had been taken from the litter too early; hearing another kitten miaow tells it that it's hurting (duh). >> - don't play fight with your bare hands, >> a leather glove is good, > > That's even more IDIOTIC. The kat won't know > or care if you're wearin a glove. smells/feels different than a hand. Bizarre hearing that from you. Never tried it myself. >> distance toys (a feather on a string, laser- >> pointer, wind up mouse) are better. > > Yeah, but they won't TRAIN the kat not to be > sharp on skin, will it, rp. train it to be aggressive on something other than a hand/arm which is pretty well what I said. > Perhaps you should > stick to advice you know sumpthin about? What *I* do personally would probably generally be considered bad advice. I let my cats choose to use their claws or not; as a result I don't get scratched; I *do* get scraped (doesn't leave a mark) and I do get batted (doesn't puncture), but I'm more a holistic (lazy) cat owner and know better than to flinch when the claws come out. Training a cat not to play aggressively at all with people is an easier solution. But my kitties are all growed up. The 8 week old kitten needs to be told that the skin it's sticking it's claws into *hasn't* got protective fur on it. That's not too complicated for you, is it ? >> Continue to pet and cuddle the cat barehanded of course. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > That's insane. Even an adult cat that never normally uses it claws on a person will use them to catch their balance. And the cat that waits in hiding and jumps out at you won't be using it's claws or teeth in any serious manner when it knows not to. >> If the cat was much older I'd opine that it was a >> minor behavioural problem brought on by incompetent >> previous or current owners but not too difficult to >> smooth out. > > BWEEEEHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!! what the f.ck are you laughing at, you incompetent troll; scratching "problems" in an 8 week old kitten aren't *problems* at all and the cat will grow out of it for the most part. >> Pat >> 30 something kittens. > > PFFFT! Jerry: zero kittens. > Punishment Deranges Behavior. > "NO!" Does NOT Have Any Behavioral Function [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > > That's INSANE. Ain't it. Are you trying to say that "naughty puppy" is the same as "oww that hurts?". I don't see the similarities apart from in both cases you're trying to get something across in the animal's "natural language". The cat version of "settle down" is to grab the cat by the handle (fold of skin at the nape of the neck) and gently place your forearm on top of and aligned with it's spine until it lays down. Anything else and it just freaks out more... but the reason you *won't* see me advocating this right up front is it gives people an excuse to rile the cat up since they think they can then calm it down again, ie: treating the symptom not the problem. rpl > Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED: > [quoted text clipped - 886 lines] > > <{@); ~ } > PLEASE!!! don't reply to him, and if you can't help yourself, snip his part of the post.,...we don't even want to see one word of his blather!!  SignatureThere are many intelligent species in the Universe. They are all owned by cats. Anonymous One cat just leads to another. -Ernest Hemingway > > HOWEDY rpl, > > [quoted text clipped - 1103 lines] > > > > <{@); ~ } > I never can understand the need to respond to a troll and than want us to read the troll's post. I guess people never learn That's the charm or whatever of a troll. Make it a game if you have to, to see if you can ignore them. I think there was a time or two when I didn't know better I did the same thing. :) Signature"Other than telling us how to live, think, marry, pray, vote, invest, educate our children and now, die, I think the Republicans have done a fine job of getting government out of our personal lives." >I never can understand the need to respond to a troll and than want us to >read the troll's post. > I guess people never learn >I never can understand the need to respond to a troll and than want us to >read the troll's post. > I guess people never learn I can never understand the need to control how others post. Read what interests you and ignore the rest, or move to a more controlled communication genre such as a moderated group. It must be clear to even the dimmestg bulbs that the term "troll" is, err, relative. you just did it yourself Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.community From: "meee" <efama...@bigpond.net.au> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 02:10:52 GMT Subject: Re: hummph!! Jasmeen is NOT FURRY HEPPY!! i duuno eeffur. She sayz she is wun of dem mad cat ladies you sees onna teevee, ceptin a liddl bit yunger. she sayz itz becus she cuddent haf kittiez when she wuz liddle, so sh's makin up fur lostd timz. ann sh sayz cos she has two liddluns anna her winkwink dere will be enuff huggles to go round. but i is not conwinced. i fink she is just beein greedy anna selfish. but at least i has mine own rum now, anna she is takin me kissamous shoppin affur mine kitties are gone to their onetru homez. ========================= You're doin your Xmas shoppin with the PROFIT you earned from irresponsibly breedin your kats: Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.health+behav From: "meee" <efama...@bigpond.net.au> Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2005 02:24:05 GMT Subject: Re: Home for Love-Starved Cats? "Brandy Alexandre" <brandy...@kittylittercomcast.net > meee <efama...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > > Hey Brandy, all this aside, do you have a Siamese? > > I am getting one soon, and at pain of being flamed [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > eat her cat for dinner, after allowing it to run free > > and breed/distribute pests and mayhem indiscriminately. Like you been doin with Jasmine, eh meee? You're a kat collector and abuser accordin to your own posted case history which I've quoted below. > > What are their personalities like...I have heard they > > are good conversationalists; do they get on well with > > dogs? Jasmine (my rescued stray- see, I'm not all bad) You "RESCUED" a litter of kittens and STARVED THEM TO DEATH because you thought their TALKIN was askin to PLAY not knowin any better that kitty kats NEED to be FED every two HOWERS. > she sounds lovely!!! LOL about the dog! My jasmine > is moggy but i'm suspicious she's part oriental. she [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > thinks i'm mad talking to a cat You're INSANE. You're a kitty kat miller. You INDISCRIMINATELY BREED your kats for PROFIT. You give the same tender lovin care to your own children: Newsgroups: aus.family From: "meee" <efama...@bigpond.net.au> Date: Wed, 05 Oct 2005 12:11:56 GMT Subject: Re: meee's introduction ( was: Re: on thursday... ) wow, so nice to hear back from so many of you. is it just me, or do we have a predominance of boy-children in here? And I'm envious of your mum-access cheryl...I've just moved across state from mine-she's an RN and midwife, so anytime I had a funny pregnancy bump, or one of the kids turned purple or something, i could ring her and she'd just 'pop over' (as grandma's love doing) and be very professional (as nurses love doing) at me til I calmed down....miss my mum! -- You're CRUEL and INSANE, meee: Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.anecdotes From: "meee" <efama...@bigpond.net.au> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 10:03:40 GMT Subject: Re: Extremely frustrating lost cat story > Dr Smithpeters wrote: > So now I'm back to square one. Back setting traps. Back > having all the rednecks around here confront me as a potential > looter when they see me walking around with a flashlight shining > it into the woods. Yeah, you neanderthal, I'm gonna loot your > neighbor's pine trees and brush and snakes. > Life is great. did he scratch her? Hopefully next time he'll bite her. she was obviously hoping to get lots of praise and didn't expect to have to use her brain in the process. ================== That was kindly of you, meee, you freakin mental case. HOWEDY meee, > please everyone, can you killfile the pussywizard. The Amazing Pussy Wizard isn't gonna EMBARRASS or CONDEMN you for being dirt poor and not takin care or your own critters, meee. You got the right to be trash and neglect and indiscriminately allHOWE your critters to breed like your momma raised you to spawn more trash just like yourself, that's your PEROGAIVE, meee. AIN'T IT. > I have been blissfully unaware of all his posts > in all the newsgroups he harrasses, That's a load of crap you piece of trash. Ooops! Nothin PERSONAL, meee, that's just an OBSERVATION based on your PERFORMANCE based on your own POSTED CASE HISTORY, you barefoot pregnant sleaze. > but when people answer him, it means we all get > annoyed by his crap in your reply posts! Let's talk about you lettin you kat outta your trailer and gettin bred to have more kittye kats for you to SELL so you can pay a babysitter so you can get stiff, eh meee? > If you must reply, please delete his crap first HOWE COME? Don't you care to read your own POSTED CASE HISTORY I so relentlessly repost to IDENTIFY EXXXPOSE and DISCREDIT you as the scum you are? NOTHIN PERSONAL, just a OBSERVATION, meee. > so the rest of us You mean the mentally ill lying animal abusin cowards like yourself, meee? > who have killfiled him don't have to read it. Don't you have a BRAIN, meee? Can't you simply NOT READ your own reposted CASE HISTORY, meee? > thanks. You're welcome. HOWEver, for those of us who DO CARE about the heelth and well being of our critters, here's just a couple posts which will clearly PROVE to any SANE CARING READERS EXXXACTLY what kinda GARBAGE you REALLY are, meee. Here's MEEE, without a word from ME, meee: From: "meee" <efama...@bigpond.net.au> Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2005 04:46:58 GMT Subject: Re: Pregnant jasmine Wendy <wendyp...@nospam.com> wrote in message news:Z_KdnRS2sd12nKneRVn-tQ@comcast.com... > > Wendy <wendyp...@nospam.com> wrote in message > > news:XI6dnf5L76ZK_6zeRVn-jw@comcast.com... [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >> > through this with phil & others....if you still > >> > feel morally outraged be my guest. > >> > Anyway the reality is, she's bin knocked up, her > >> > belly is growing, her teats are visible, she's > >> > hanging around me meowing and looking at me as > >> > if it's all my fault ( I know, I know, it is, > >> > but anyway). > >> > She's inspecting cupboards, lying around a lot, > >> > and behaving in a very grumpy, I'm miserable and > >> > everyone else is gonna know it kinda way. > >> > How do I know when she's going to drop them? > >> > and how soon after she has had the kittens can > >> > we have her desexed? I'm probably going to keep > >> > one of the kittens ( my hubby says no, but i > >> > know when they're born *he'll* be picking which > >> > one!!!) I'm thinking of keeping a boy and having > >> > him neutered too-boys are cheaper I believe. > >> If you have no idea when the cat got pregnant then > >> a vet will have to examine her to give you any kind > >> of accurate idea when she will be due. > >> I hope you're keeping her inside until after she > >> has the kittens and is spayed. You really don't > >> want her having the kittens outside somewhere. > >> You can have her spayed once the kittens are weaned. > >> Here again the vet will best be able to advise you. > >> If the cost difference between neutering a male and > >> spaying a female is an issue, are you sure you can > >> afford to keep any of the kittens? > >> W > > I had a financial problem desexing Jas because > > shortly after she walked into our lives we moved > > house from the country to the city, to access > > education and jobs not available in the country, > > so we don't have financial difficulties as much. > > Now both my husband and I can get jobs, as I can > > for the first time access childcare for my kiddies, > > and our finances will stretch once more to proper > > vet care. > > Unfortunately our finance problem coincided with > > Jasmine's arrival. Vets in the city are also > > cheaper than country vets- supply & demand. > > Don't worry, I wouldn't consider getting an > > animal unless I could care for it. > > Jas was not a 'planned baby', but welcome > > nonetheless. Thanks for your concern, and > > I hope my answer satisfied you. > > I am considering not keeping any kittens...though > > I'll have to hope me & hubby can resist the 'cute' [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > always volunteer with a ocal rescue group to foster > pregnant moms and kittens. That is a good idea wendy- we have two shelters up here, the young animal protection society and the rspca. i will see how we go with this first litter, as i have toddlers, they are very good, but i want to make sure first. I have fostered a couple of kittens i rescued, but they were too far gone by the time i got them, and i didn't have access to proper medication and help, so unfortunately they didn't make it. it was so sad, they were beautiful little babies. ------ SEE? The Amazing Pussy Wizard doesn't got to say WORD WON to CRUCIFY you, you stupid ignorant mouth breeder. > Amir E. <apbtlo...@cox.net> wrote in message > news:3htZe.154710$Ji4.130618@fed1read03... > > Good for you "Dana"...! Very eloquently & realistically > > presented, as (unfortunately) opposed to "our" > > OPPOSED friend... > > I was especially tickled by ".....waste of > > bandwith....."; ON THE MONEY my friend. > > Sincerely; Kinda makes WON WONder what amir got to HIDE, eh??? > > Amir > > > What you have written here seems to be a waste > > > of bandwith to me. Perahps that's because dana ain't bright enough to read all them big words like DON'T HURT and INTIMIDATE innocent defenseless dumb critters? > > > I am not inexperienced in canine behavior But dana's NEXT POST is about not being able to WALK her new dog on leash because SHE CHOKES IT! > > > and what you are suggesting sounds like the > > > rantings of a mental midget looking for > > > attention. But it's DANA who CAN'T MAKE her new dog follow her down the street even wavin a pork chop in front of ITS face!!! BWEEEEEEEEEEAHAHAHHAHAHAAA!!! > > > good luck in your efforts. Dog trainin AIN'T LUCK and NOT LETTIN a female kat outta the HOWES to get indiscriminately bred like meee done AIN'T PRICEY like FEEDIN the new kitty kats SHE MURDERED because the stupid mouth breeder was TOO LAZY to FEED THEM EVERY TWO HOWERS like a momma kat does. > > > I consider the advice and information of the > > > people posting here You mean, anonymHOWES COWARDS like amir and lazy dirt poor barefoot breedin machines like meee? > > > far more reliable meee can't even learn not to let her kat out when she's IN HEAT and is too stupid and LAZY to FEED the new kittens she was FOSTERING. > > > than someone that calls himself a > > > behavior forensic...whatever that is. That's a few big words that MEAN I SIMPLY CITE YOUR OWN POSTED CASE HISTORIES with which to CRUCIFY YOU ignorant dirtbags... BWEEEEEEAAHAHAHAHHAHAAA!!! > > > Dana Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.community From: "meee" <efama...@bigpond.net.au> Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 23:06:07 GMT Subject: hummph!! Jasmeen is NOT FURRY HEPPY!! Hsssspitttz!! exkews da bad langwidge, but my hoomin is bein furry unpleassant to minownself lately. I is not allowed owtsides anymores, i gets the insiderain when i effen lookz near the door, i am forced to eatz disgistin fudz, anna the rum she fixd fur me? I am loked in effery nite...meowmi said sumfin bout kitties not bein borned in the clofes cuppords...well reeely! I should be able to haf mine kittens whereffer i wants too!! An if I feels like killin birdies or likin meowmies ears all nite I should be llowed To!!!An to top it off, meowmie is torkin of gettin, not one, but two new kitties.... anna one is a GIRL kitty!! I am the onely girls kitty around here!!! It will apparently be comin in December. I Am NOt AMUsed!!! I am showin my displeshure but ignorin all the rules, jumpin onna da keyboard, jumpin onna her lap then diggin clawz in anna jumpin off agen, constanlty followin meowmie anna meowin, scratchin her wheneffer she walks past me, bitin ankles, anna lyin down in front of her when she walks anna on top of whateffer she is doin. These hoomins need some disiplin. I haf been to nice to them. Well that is about to change. And what is it abount me that needs to be fixed? I is not broke, i is just furry cross. well REELY!!!! Newsgroups: rec.pets.cats.community From: "meee" <efama...@bigpond.net.au> Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2005 09:27:27 Subject: Re: hummph!! Jasmeen is NOT FURRY HEPPY!! Well I am glad to see dat sumbody appreciates me!! Nobody heer dus. Anna iffn I wasnt to fat to rach it, i wouldhaf mauled the rain-bottle lon ago!! well, at least i has mine own couch inna the room. anna dere is no childrens to annoy me anna good view offa birdz too. so I guess it izznt alla bad, i just needing to get it offa my chest. And I will wait anna see bout da other kitties....i likes the idea offa boy kitty, but we'll wait anna see bout a girlkitty...!!anyways fanks fur your sympafy ================= That's all for now, animal lovers. The Amazing Pussy Wizard <(@: ~ ) > ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._ `6_ 6 ) `-. ( ).`-.__.`) (_Y_.)' ._ ) `._ `. ``-..-' _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,' (((' (((-((('' (((( |\ _.-'~~""'~`'~) /, ~-,__,,,.'~ ,-;;--'' |,4) ./ ' ; ;/' '-~~;'@ ( ; ; _.--'' _.-_..' .;.' (,_..----''' (,..--'' Meow /),,/) ( ' ; ') (,,)-(,,) /),,/) (' ; ') kiss me (,,)-(,,) /),,/) ( ; ' ) kiss me here (,,)-(,,) /),,/) ( ; ) kiss me here (,,)-(,,) /) ( * ) and KISS ME HERE! (,,)-(,,) The Amazing Pussy Wizard <{@); ~ } > <{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } > < { ~ :{@}> <{#}: ~ } >8< { ~ :{@}> Please DON'T BE The Amazing Pussy Wizard's PREY. IT AIN'T PRETTY. <{@); ~ } > HOWEDY RPL, > > HOWEDY rpl, > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > That's also somebody else's "sheer idiocy"; Let's just put an end to idiocy. > wouldn't know; only time I've used catnip is to > (quickly) transfer a cat from scratching the > furniture to using a scratching post. You mean instead of EXXXTINGUISHING the anXXXIHOWESNESS which causes kats to scratch stuff? > >> oh. > >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > I'd appreciate your not goin' "pubic" about me at all. Nutin personal. We're just talking about ending idiocy. > > Let's talk about spay / neutering, for starters? > > Got nuthin' to do with the thread at all at this level... We can talk about S/N being the cause of many heelth and temperament and behavior problems. > unless of course you were planning on going "pubic" > then by all means, lets. Nuthin personal. > > Then we can talk about claws. > > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > "six weeks" is a pet store paradigm; No, that's your bullshit. Six weeks is what Scott & Full and The Amazing Puppy Wizard sez is the optimal age to TRAINsfer pups to new HOWEses. > it works for them but it's pretty artificial; IT'S WHAT WORKS BEST according to the best researchers in the business, RPL. > note that the kittens spend a couple weeks getting shots Note that you cannot effectively give shots till critters have been weaned for a couple weeks or their natural immunity from their mother's milk will negate the innoculations. > and early neutered Surgical sexual mutilation is cruel unnecessary risky inapupriate abuse and medical malpractice. > and the litter's still together in that time. Learnin to fight and scratch. > The normal age to transfer from a mothered > litter to an owner is 10-12 weeks. Sez you, based on your observation of a couple dozen mishandled kitty kats who had anxiety behavior problems you CURED by giving them a scratchin post, RPL? Cut the crap. > >> at that age they barely know how to use their claws, > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > geez, gettin' pretty verbose aren't you. You're blowin smoke up HOWER arses, RPL. There's NUTHIN of value in what you've been sayin. > >> And you said "new" at some point, so alongside > >> everything else the kitten's getting used to a > >> totally different physical and social environment. THAT'S MEANINGLESS! Every thing HOWEtside of the litter box is NEW to a kitty kat or puppy! > > You're just FULL of valuable information! > most people'd say I was full of somethin' to be sure. You're full of MALARKEY! The SAD part is you BELIEVE what you're sayin! > >> In the meantime you might want to start on the > >> "don't scratch me" routine: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > nope I didn't. reason bein' they generally don't. YOU'RE FULL OF MALARKEY, pat. > >> - when the cat grabs you with his claws, don't > >> pull away; make a distressed "miaow" sound Kinda like a MHOWES gettin caught? > > That'll reinforce the behavior just to watch you react. > > now you're just hypothesizing that cats are evil. HUMANS are EVIL, Pat. You're blowin smoke up HOWER arses to defend your IDIOTIC MALARKEY because your FEELINS are gettin hurt. > You're steppin' on your own toes here. You're full of crap, Pat. You got nuthin but faerie tails and hockum to offer us and you back it up with fable and myths and irresponsible hard luck stories you fantasize into SUCCCESS based on the fact that everyWON LIVED despite the horror!!! > Kitten in question had been taken from the litter too early; THAT'S INSANE, Pat. You're blamin the kitten leavin the litter box early for having behavior and temperament problems CAUSED BY MISHANDLING. > hearing another kitten miaow tells it that it's hurting (duh). That's idiocy. > >> - don't play fight with your bare hands, > >> a leather glove is good, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > smells/feels different than a hand. THAT'S SHEER IDIOCY! IT'S IRRELEVENT. > Bizarre hearing that from you. Never tried it myself. If "wearin a glove" taught the kat the difference then attack trained dogs would ONLY attack the attack sleeve, wouldn't they, Pat. You AIN'T gettin it both ways UNLESS The Amazing Puppy Wizard is GIVIN it to you BOTH WAYS. > >> distance toys (a feather on a string, laser- > >> pointer, wind up mouse) are better. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > train it to be aggressive on something other > than a hand/arm which is pretty well what I said. There's NO NEED or POINT to trainin IT to be "aggressive". ALL AGGRESSION IS LEARNED. > > Perhaps you should stick to advice you know sumpthin about? > > What *I* do personally would probably > generally be considered bad advice. INDEED. Then condsider keepin it to yourself. > I let my cats choose to use their claws or not; Because YOU GOT NO CHOICE because you got NO METHOD to TRAIN them, Pat. > as a result I don't get scratched; I > *do* get scraped (doesn't leave a mark) Oh, that's just what we all desire. > and I do get batted (doesn't puncture), Because you teach your kats to fight with you. > but I'm more a holistic (lazy) cat owner That's INSANE. > and know better than to flinch when the claws come out. Oh? Like it SEZ in your own FREE COPY of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual. > Training a cat not to play aggressively > at all with people is an easier solution. Sez you. > But my kitties are all growed up. The 8 week > old kitten needs to be told that the skin it's > sticking it's claws into *hasn't* got protective > fur on it. That's not too complicated for you, > is it ? You're double talkin us again, Pat. YOU GOT NO METHOD. > >> Continue to pet and cuddle the cat barehanded of course. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > claws on a person will use them to catch their > balance. You mean when they scurry up your leg, pat? > And the cat that waits in hiding and jumps out at you To play attack. > won't be using it's claws or teeth in > any serious manner when it knows not to. You mean when you shriek and turn away and pay it no attention and give IT an alternate incompatible behavior to do, Pat? THAT'S HOWE COME people GET RID of unruly kitty kats and puppys, Pat. You got no training method and you're causing the problems you get and then denying it and blame the kitty kat for not bein with the litter till it was mature. > >> If the cat was much older I'd opine that it was a > >> minor behavioural problem brought on by incompetent > >> previous or current owners but not too difficult to > >> smooth out. LIKE THAT. > > BWEEEEHAHAHAHAHHAAA!!! > > what the f.ck are you laughing at, you incompetent troll; Perhaps you should tickle it's arse with a feather, Pat? > scratching "problems" in an 8 week old > kitten aren't *problems* at all UNLESS you're the WON gettin scratched. > and the cat will grow out of it for the most part. Suppose that kat is scratchin the baby or a diabetic or hemopheliac, Pat? THEN WHAT??? THEN THEY GET RID OF THE KAT, you freaking simpleton. > >> Pat 30 something kittens. > > > PFFFT! > > Jerry: zero kittens. You got no idea HOWE many kitty kats The Amazing Puppy Wizard has worked with, Pat, because The Amazing Puppy Wizard never talked abHOWET HIS EXXXPERIENCE working with kats EXXXCEPT for HIS enterTRAINING EXXXPERIENCE meetin with Gunther of Ringling Brothers Circus and freakin him HOWET. > > Punishment Deranges Behavior. > > "NO!" Does NOT Have Any Behavioral Function [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > Are you trying to say that "naughty puppy" > is the same as "oww that hurts?". INDEEDY, Pat. > I don't see the similarities apart from in > both cases you're trying to get something > across in the animal's "natural language". THAT'S INSANE, Pat. In both instances you're using negative interactions to scare and intimidate a critter and withholding attention affection and so called rewards. > The cat version of "settle down" is to grab the > cat by the handle (fold of skin at the nape of > the neck) and gently place your forearm on top > of and aligned with it's spine until it lays down. You mean the kitty alphalpha rollover, you kat abusing mental case, Pat? > Anything else and it just freaks out more... Oh... > but the reason you *won't* see me advocating > this right up front is it gives people an excuse > to rile the cat up since they think they can then > calm it down again, ie: treating the symptom not > the problem. Oh. O.K. That's the same reason The Amazing Puppy Wizard got to IDENTIFY EXXXPOSE and DISCREDIT EVERY THING YOU SAY as soon as you say it so DECENT PEOPLE WON'T FOLLOW YOUR IDIOTIC ADVICE and end up MURDERIN their critters, Pat. > rpl FIGGER IT HOWET: > > Here's professor dermer AFTER gettin JERRYIZED: > > [quoted text clipped - 887 lines] > > > > <{@); ~ } > Buh-bye. > Oh? Like it SEZ in your own FREE COPY of The > Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY > INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW Wits' End Dog > Training Method Manual. Again - so laughable - trying to quote his own bullshit. Here we go again with "you mean...you mean." > You mean when they scurry up your leg, pat? > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > pay it no attention and give IT an alternate > incompatible behavior to do, Pat? "You mean...you mean..." > You got no idea HOWE many kitty kats The > Amazing Puppy Wizard has worked with, Pat, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > meetin with Gunther of Ringling Brothers Circus > and freakin him HOWET. Give us a name, phone number, and dates of work with Ringling. You won't, because you are lying. >> Oh? Like it SEZ in your own FREE COPY of The >> Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100% CONSISTENTLY NEARLY [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > You won't, because you are lying. I have (occasionally) held (almost) coherent conversations with Jerry, but his contention that there are no differences between cats' and dogs' genetic borne specific traits is dangerous and potentially harmful if somebody takes him seriously. rpl I'm not sure how this is flying in "alt.parenting.spanking" or what parallels, if any, Jerry is trying to draw. If she is in America pups and kittens are adopted out as soon as they can be weaned. It does cause some problems with cats because they may have litter box issues and grooming issues as well as underdeveloped behavior response. Gina >> This kitten is a little over two months old. My undestanding is >> cat nip won't work on a cat until at least eight months. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > Pat > 30 something kittens. > Soft paws or Soft Claws is the alternative > Challenge taken, answered and won in less than five minutes of your post > may not be the most money saving way but the most humane way http://www.safepetproducts.com/pilot.asp?pg=softpaws_info&GCID=S16049x006&KEYWOR D=soft+paws > Understanding the Motivation of the Scratching Behavior > [quoted text clipped - 153 lines] > resorting to the travesty of amputation. To update an old saying, there's > more than one way to cure a cat. The next time you cite my site, please post the link: http://www.maxshouse.com/understanding_scratching.htm Thanks, Phil sorry Phil I found that information using web ferret it had no signature link to it to you MY MISTAKE SORRY > sorry Phil I found that information using web ferret it had no signature > link to it to you MY MISTAKE SORRY No problem. ;-) I'm glad you cited the article- although I don't think it will do much good in this particular case. Hopefully others will benefit from it. Phil > I''ve seen tons of posts on these cat groups about declawing. I > would prefer to not declaw my new kitten, so i'm issuing this [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > me or any cat owner to get the cat to not scratch me to > peaces. Unless your kitten is a tiger or lion cub, there is nothing to worry about. The kitten will *not* scratch you to pieces. Nor will any cat that you treat with respect. >> I''ve seen tons of posts on these cat groups about declawing. I >> would prefer to not declaw my new kitten, so i'm issuing this [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >to worry about. The kitten will *not* scratch you to pieces. >Nor will any cat that you treat with respect. Too late. I'm already scratched and the cat has drawn blood. So if the cat won't scratch me what are those long red marks with blood oozing out? ------------------------------------------ http://www.barnabascollins.blogspot.com > Too late. I'm already scratched and the cat has drawn blood. > > So if the cat won't scratch me what are those long red marks > with blood oozing out? Dont be such a wuss. >> Too late. I'm already scratched and the cat has drawn blood. >> >> So if the cat won't scratch me what are those long red marks >> with blood oozing out? > > Dont be such a wuss. Indeed. Little kittens can be annoying, but they outgrow that stage so quickly. Gosh, it's been 6 years since I had kittens in the house, I miss 'em. A high-pitched "OW" and they learn pretty fast not to hurt mommy & daddy. |
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