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Cat Forum / General Topics / March 2005Cat buyers are confusing the heck out of me. Please HELP!
I hope someone from this forum can give me some info ASAP. I run a small cattery and I recently sold a kitten to some people who came in from out of state (they put the kitten on reserve). Anyway, they came and took the kitten (under some additionally odd circumstances) and several days later they called wanting me address to send me payment. I called back and provided my address. Now, today, about a week later I hear from them again and they tell me that they took the kitten to the vet and it had the following problems: Ear mites, fleas, a resp infection, and worms and the vet told them it was only four weeks old. They also stated that the kitten refused to eat anything for the first couple or several days that they had it. Moreover, the vet reportedly told them that the kitten had never been vaccinated. They claimed that the vet gave the kitten a blood test, which confirmed that the kitten had never been vaccinated. Now I am really very confused. That kitten was seven weeks old -- I'm 100% positive. That kitten had been weaned for a week here and it had been eating Iams kitten chow like a little piglet -- no problems. That kitten received it's first basic 4-way vaccine. That kitten had been dewormed. What the heck is going on? I can buy the idea of ear mites and fleas as it's always possible that I messed up and missed that because a lot was going on when I sold that kitten and I had brought in some rescue puppies the week prior -- so although I did not see fleas or knowingly sell a kitten with fleas (of ear mites for that matter), it is possible (very possible as another litter mate apparently had fleas and ear mites). A resp infection could have been the result, possibly a combo result from the recent new vaccine that had been given and the move into a stressful home environment -- it now seems that these buyers are a little wacky. However, four weeks old, NO and a bloodtest which proves that no vaccine was given -- impossible, right? I don't get it. The full sister to this kitten went to another home and she too unfortunately had ear mites and fleas, but other than that the vet said she was healthy and there were no reports from those people of the kitten being only four weeks old or no vaccine having been given. I am definitely going to tighten my methods here to deal with any and all fleas and ear mites. I really have never had these kinds of problem or had anyone complain before. Anyhow, Does anyone on this forum have any information about the potential situation here? Has anyone ever heard of a similar story? I'm really pretty freaked out because I have always done the best that I could to keep my cats healthy and my clients satisfied and this episode is something right out ot the Twilight Zone to me. Welcome to retailing! Why won't department stores take back party dresses who's tags have been removed? Why can't you use a third-party check at a gas station? Try this one the next time your local grocery store has a 2 for 1 sale: Buy 2 and lose the receipt. Then next week bring one back and say your spouse bought the wrong item and you just want your money back. Or, if you want a free cat just find a seller willing to allow you to take the cat home for a free trial. Just make sure your idea of a trial period is about 20 years.  SignatureJesus saves! at Citibank CHANGE THE .sig in 'Server Prefs'! LOL! Cute or obnoxious -- whatever. What can I say, I felt sorry for these two young women who had driven about five hours to get here and came in with babies on their hips and one of the babies had thrown up all the way out. I'm working on being more of a b*tch believe me. I also felt sorry for a number of very sweet senior citizens and gave them discount prices (those kittens/cats never had problems) and I felt empathy for a lady who was receiving cancer treatments so I donated a purebred Russian Blue kitten to her. By looking at some of the hate mail and vendetta hungry cat people and buyers I guess all I really need to do to stroke my b*tch potential to a razor's edge is keep reading this forum. See you've helped me already! Maybe if I read this forum enough I can even get to the point where I can lie about blood testing cats (that way I can run out and buy more queens and not bother to test them all this time) and vaccines and not care when the kittens die or when the client is unhappy! Yeeeeeeeehaw. No, I doubt I can get to that point. On Sat, 05 Mar 2005 04:46:08 -0000, John Doeu <john_does@nowhere.zzz.mmm> >Welcome to retailing! Why won't department stores take back party dresses who's tags have been removed? Why can't you use a third-party check at a gas station? Try this one the next time your local grocery store has a 2 for 1 sale: Buy 2 and lose the receipt. Then next week bring one back and say your spouse bought the wrong item and you just want your money back. Or, if you want a free cat just find a seller willing to allow you to take the cat home for a free trial. Just make sure your idea of a trial period is about 20 years. And stores always seem to want to get paid before you walk out the door with your purchase. Why do film developers say if they lose your film they will only replace your film--Not pay for a trip to China so you can take another picture of the Wall again. If I bought a sick cat from a breeder I would threaten to sue the breeder if it did not pay for all of the cat's vet bills. And since the breeder would be paying for the vet bills I would take it to the most expensive vet in town. Further, since the cat is sick it will most likely die should the breeder ever want to come and see how sick the cat is. SignatureJesus saves! at Citibank CHANGE THE .sig in 'Server Prefs'! > Why do film developers say if they lose your film they will >only replace your film--Not pay for a trip to China so you can >take another picture of the Wall again. That is one of the reasons Digital Cameras are becoming so popular. With my digital camera I can print the picture on the spot werever that is. That's nice. Have you ever paused to wonder that maybe the buyer is somewhat at fault for something here? Naw, you wouldn't ever want to go there! I won't say that I'm perfect in this situation and I do have a history of making things right and a zero death rate in the kittens and cats that I have placed. Still, I guess if you were this specific buyer you'd be happy with youself and all your greatness as you let the kitten go without eating for several days and not even bothered to call me or a vet because your vendetta against the seller (i.e. me) was far more important than the wefare of the kitten. Etc.Etc.Etc. Yes, this kitten might die, perhaps he is dead already, but a vendetta against me or any other seller really doesn't help matters. Hey, I've got a special idea just for you (the extra nasty nasty-gram artist)!!!!! I spent over $400 on medication to deal with any potential cat fleas and worms (just in case as if there are fleas the cats will lick their fur and ingest the eggs, which will cause worms, etc.) but I can hold back on a few kittens so you can buy one from me, proceed to let it go days without food while not contacting me or the vet and then it'll get really sick and you can sue me! Won't that be fun for you?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? It could make you feel so very superior and brilliant and all of that! And if you win that lawsuit you can get your share of nothing as all of my money goes into my cats and other animals! P.S. For everyone else, I've been digging through the hair on every cat I have for days now and I have not found one flea yet nor have I found flea dirt. I don't know what to think, but I'm treating them all anyway (with both external treatment and internal treatment) just in case. I get the meds from my vet. | I am definitely | going to tighten my methods here to deal with any and all fleas and ear [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | that I could to keep my cats healthy and my clients satisfied and this | episode is something right out ot the Twilight Zone to me. Yes, I was in the same position as a buyer, the cat was not well at all although they claimed that a vet had given a clean bill. My cat had a very bad infestation of ear mites and the digestion was not well. I had to pay a fortune afterwards. I believe that your buyers are overacting, but I have to ask: Is it not too early to give away a kitten with 7 weeks? I won't give mine away before they're 12 weeks old. Carola I don't know where to begin as there are sooooooooooo many nasty-grams here. I agree with the person who said it is rude to chew people out on web forums and that we all make mistakes. To begin with, within my state the vast majority of kittens are sold at 6 weeks to 8 weeks -- very many by six weeks and unfortunately this is what the buyers demand. The kittens full sister (same age == same litter == nearly the same size/ the cat whose buyer is acting like a wackadoodle was actually the more robust of the two in that litter) went to a vet and was not diagnosed as being sick or defective or ready to die. Though the kittens full sister did have fleas and ear mites the sister was otherwise very healthy and was eating and doing fine in her new home. AS for checking the cats for fleas -- I do this daily and I saw no fleas on any of my other cats at the time of the sale. AS for checking for worms -- same thing. I routinely get my adult cats tested for worms by taking fresh poop to the vet. There have never been worms before this. There were no worms in the poop either. My adult cats are also ALL blood tested for kitty HIV and Feline Leukemia. Unlike literally ALL the other small and large cattery owners I know in the state I am the only one who has NEVER had a kitten or cat die in the new home. My success rate was perfect before this last week. Even the cattery owners in this state who never place kittens before 12 weeks have had some death rate and complications once kittens have been placed. I have not until this last week. When clients have had minor problems, and I must stress that this has been very rare, if I am contacted prior to them going crazy and in their lack of experience running up ridiculous bills and causing much panic, I go to my vet and purchase medication to deal with the kitten's trouble. There is no cost to the client. The vet is familiar with my cats and there is always accurate instruction on how to use the needed medication. Again I have had a zero death rate prior to whatever else is going to happen next in this situation. The first vaccine I get from my vet and I give it to the kittens myself. There is no logical need to pay the vet an additional $10.00 on top of the price of the vaccine so that the vet can stick the needle in. I learned how to give shots from my vet. I am thus capable of giving them. Some kittens do get a minor resp infection from that first vaccine and also sometimes from the stress of moving. This happens regardless of whether they are 7 weeks or 12 weeks. It happens no matter who gave the shot -- the vet or me. I have learned this through experience. I too have purchased cats, very expensive cats, and cats who passed a vet exam only to have those cats contract a minor resp infection within a week after the purchase. I did not go on a vendetta against the seller of the cat. When I began with cats I would contact my vet and also the seller to get help and advice. The sellers were always willing to give sound advice and it was helpful in many ways. I did not have to create a drama or a situation that might lead to the cat's death because I was ignorant or insane or not thinking straight. No cat that I ever purchased died and I'm sure my method of dealing with the problems that did arise helped in this area. The sellers who sold me my initial cats were not trying to screw me over. Sometimes things happen and a seller cannot always know it is coming. We do the very best that we can. When I began in the cats a number of sellers did warn me about crazy buyers and did tell me some nightmare stories. They weren't graphic enough I guess. Back to this kitten's age: This kitten was a large robust Mainecoon outcross. The kitten had already been weaned for a week and had shown no signs of health issues. The kitten ate extremely well and the stool specimens in the litter box were always normal and not full of worms or anything else alarming or unusual. This kitten had been bathed and I never saw any fleas and anyone who knows anything about major flea problems in any animal knows that fleas become aggitated when you wash the animal. Fleas do not hide and wait till the bath is over -- they hop and move and can be seen when an animal is washed. I did not see fleas in this kitten. Though I do not completely deny that the kitten had problems as I believe the problems have occured, I am wondering what the buyer did to the kitten. I am wondering what the buyer was doing for those several days when the kitten was not eating. They certainly were not calling me for help or advice or anything else. I would have been happy to send the buyer medication (for ear mites, fleas and the resp infection) from my vet's office. A huge vet bill was not needed and the buyer would have gotten help and medication faster from me than they did waiting apparently days while the kitten was not eating. I have done this before (though never with so many reported problems) and again there has been a ZERO death rate of cats that have been bought from me. My clients have always kept in touch, prior to this, so I'd hear all about it if there had been other horrible problems. Anyway, if the kitten left my place on death's door it certainly was the healthiest most robust bouncing playful fully weaned bundle of fluff ever to be on death's door so quickly. Moreover, I guess the full sister is quite special as she is not on death's door and she too saw a vet. Moreover, she was not as robust, though not frail either, as the one that is now reportedly in such poor shape. Regarding the rescue puppies. They were separated for a time, washed, vaccinated and dewormed. There was no obvious evidence of fleas on them. Still I somewhat suspect them as I can't see any other way the infestation could have happened. Regarding all the hate mail -- I've got to say the very nice and informative cattery owners that got me started were right on target. I really do have to put the smack down on you guys. I will from now on force all clients to sign a contract and moreover perhaps I shouldn't worry so darn much about paying through the nose to blood test and stool test all my adult cats and vaccinate regularly and offer so much help to clients when there is a problem. After all, there is such a sense of entitlement going on here and absolutely zero realization of exactly how much work and money is spent on these cats in a constant effort to offer healthy socialized kittens -- kittens without deadly diseases (until maybe now). There appears to be an expectation that I should literally be perfect and make no errors when the bottom line is everyone make an error sometimes and also sometimes a problem pops up that the seller is not aware of because there were no signs before the cat left. > I don't know where to begin as there are sooooooooooo many nasty-grams > here. You are malicious and hateful and no friend to cats. Here in alt.cats, people like cats, they do not exploit them for money. How exactly do you know that I exploit cats for money? I think your conclusion is both utterly illogical and wrong. > How exactly do you know that I exploit cats for money? I think your > conclusion is both utterly illogical and wrong. You are separating babies from their mothers too soon, for one thing. For another, with so many cats that need homes right now, you are contributing to the overpopulation problem. Shame on you. Hi Mary, What age do you suggest I wean large robust kittens that are 100% out of the nest, litter box trained, not nursing anymore and eating well on their own? I checked my records with some extra compulsion and must make a correction on the age that the kitten was place -- he was eight weeks, not seven weeks. This age error (stating he was a bit younger is not unusual for me due to the demand to sell kittens so young)when not papered I sometimes shave a week off the age making them one week younger and I approx the age for the client. Clients prefer to hear about seven weeks better than they like to hear eight weeks. With papered kittens I never do this because it isn't fair if the client wants to show the cat. Anyway, the kitten was four week on Feb/01/2005. Since the kitten was not placed until Feb/28/2005 that makes him eight weeks. > Hi Mary, > What age do you suggest I wean large robust kittens that are 100% out of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > kitten was four week on Feb/01/2005. Since the kitten was not placed until > Feb/28/2005 that makes him eight weeks. A kitten should never be separated from its mother before 8 weeks of age -- no matter what the buyers "demand." Ten to 12 weeks is preferable. MaryL > Hi Mary, > What age do you suggest I wean large robust kittens that are 100% out of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > kitten was four week on Feb/01/2005. Since the kitten was not placed until > Feb/28/2005 that makes him eight weeks. If you were a responsible registered breeder you would never sell a Maine Coon at 8 weeks. The MC breeders in my country (Australia) would not hear of such a thing (well the registered ones wouldn't, dunno about the backyarders because they are capable of all sorts of shonky behaviour!). Just because they look big doesn't mean they are mature. The biggest MC breeder here is actually advocating that they go at 14 weeks rather than 12 weeks as they are really not mature enough even at 12 weeks (large breeds take longer). Most breeders here will let the kittens wean themselves (may take mum out if they are now eating on their own), but not separate the kittens from their littermates until at least 12 weeks. The second 6 weeks gives them extremely important socialisation time. At what age do you place your kittens who have papers? Additionally, although sh*t can sometimes happen, most responsible breeders would be highly unlikely to have ongoing problems with ear mites and fleas (although this kitten could very well have picked up fleas at its new home). Treating regularly with a product like Revolution would eliminate this altogether. The reason this kitten has no antibodies is likely because he was vaccinated too early. He probably still had maternal immunity and therefore the first vaccine didn't work (the antibody response at that age is highly variable - some respond and some don't). If you were placing your kittens at 12 weeks or older, you could vaccinate them at 10-12 weeks and be much more assured of generating immunity to the vaccine. Also, your side effects profile will go down (ie they'll be much less likely to come down with respiratory symptoms after being vaccinated). You may find the response here isn't what you expect. Most posters on this group are concerned about the *major* cat overpopulation problem in the USA, and see breeders as contributing to this problem by causing people to buy their cats instead of shelter cats who are likely to die (and I reckon that's a fair take on the situation). Also, reading between the lines I get the impression you don't always breed purebreds (feel free to correct me if I have the wrong idea). This would put you off side with registered breeders as well. Additionally, why breed more cross-breeds when there are so many being abandoned for want of a home? The other thing is that if you place them at 12 weeks they can be desexed before leaving your home - that ensures no (other?) backyarders can repeat this cycle. Orchid also makes a good point about your testing programme, or lack thereof. It's my understanding that MC's at least should be sold with proof of testing for hip dysplasia and HCM (or proof that the parents have been tested at the appropriate age). If you're not even taking the kittens in for their first vax, when are you getting all this other stuff checked? And, if a kitten is going as a pet the responsible thing to do is to get them vet-checked with their first vax. Then this whole scenario would not have happened at all - your vet would have diagnosed the mites and fleas, and you could have treated them appropriately. Most breeders factor this sort of thing into the price anyway, which is why purebred cats aren't cheap! (And the price most times doesn't even cover the cost of all this stuff). Also, as a "registered, responsible breeder", are you showing your cats? Are you demonstrating that your cats are bred to a standard (of type and temperament)? (And it is telling that you can't enter a show cat until it is older than 12 weeks too). There are always going to be the "instant gratification" buyers who want a tiny baby cat that their kids can torment, but people who are serious about a purebred cat are prepared to wait until it is old enough. Perhaps you should be selling to people who understand that 12 weeks *is* still a baby, and that it benefits the cat to be placed later rather than sooner. And they are prepared to pay for them too, as they usually have some understanding of all the work needed to get their kitten to 12 weeks, healthy and free from genetic problems. And these sort of buyers notice you if you show your cats - they are usually looking about at cat shows. There is always going to be someone selling cats at 6-8 weeks, but just because it is being done doesn't make it right! When I read your first post I thought you couldn't be serious in what you were saying, as the distinct impression I gained was that of a backyard breeder out to make some $$$, and not prepared to go the extra miles. It didn't help that you didn't sound sure of the kitten's age that you sold. Your post sounded a little troll-like, to be honest. And that is why you have had the responses you have. Just some thoughts Cath There appears | to be an expectation that I should literally be perfect and make no errors | when the bottom line is everyone make an error sometimes and also sometimes | a problem pops up that the seller is not aware of because there were no | signs before the cat left. If I were you I'd offer to take the kitten back, i n s t a n t l y !! Then you see if they like it or not. If they give it back, then you've done the cat a favour too. Carola >There appears >| to be an expectation that I should literally be perfect and make no errors [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Carola I agree with this. I saw this post at lunchtime - and the feelings that have been niggling at me tend to make me wonder if the kitten is getting good treatment there. | >There appears | >| to be an expectation that I should literally be perfect and make no errors [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] | that have been niggling at me tend to make me wonder if the kitten is | getting good treatment there. I'd like to know of Sereena what she's going to do about the little kitten now. Carola This is some good advice. Hmmmm. You're definitely right and I should have/ would have already if the buyer hadn't been so crazy sounding and hostile. The buyer really intimidated me. Normally I would offer to take the kitten back and I've taken them back before over smaller complaints (i.e. the buyer's dog doesn't like the cat, the buyer's other cat doesn't like the new kitten, etc.). I should get my courage up in this situation and dive back in to call this mean sounding buyer and try to get the kitten back. Thanks. | This is some good advice. Hmmmm. You're definitely right and I should have/ | would have already if the buyer hadn't been so crazy sounding and hostile. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] | back in to call this mean sounding buyer and try to get the kitten back. | Thanks. It's appropriate in newsgroups to leave the original text or part of it if it's too long. So we know what you're talking about ... The original text should show on the screen if you reply, if not, then use copy and paste. Carola Yeah, you're a classic backyard breeder. Possibly a kitten miller but I'm not sure. You give the shots yourself to save ten bucks. Did it ever occur to you that if you'd blown the 10-spot, the vet would have found the ear mites? You don't vet-check your kittens to save money, right? And you're selling "Maincoon outcrosses". I hope you're educated more about the genetics of the Maine Coon than you are about spelling the name. I'm still waiting on you to address the issue of the proper age to give a 4-in-1 vaccine. Sherry Hi Sherri, According to my vet the proper age to give the initial four way vaccine is six weeks of age. I have taken kittens to the vet to get their vaccines and this is when my vet has given the vaccines. As I explained, it was the vet who taught me how to vaccinate a cat and/or kittens. Once my vet taught me how to vaccinate and I vaccinated my adult cats (with booster shots and whatnot) myself I thought that I had learned how to do it by myself. In regards to using services from my vet -- I do. However, I don't run to my vet for every little thing when I have been performing those things myself for a while now. Regarding the ear mites. Ear mites are bad but they usually do not kill a cat. I am treating my ear mite problem right now. Regarding the fleas, why don't any of my other cats have fleas? Why don't my dogs have fleas? Why didn't the two kittens that went to vets for wellness exams have fleas? I guess these particular fleas are special -- they only wanted to bite the outcross kittens that sold on that specific weekend. As for me being a kitty mill -- great joke. I didn't know kitty mills did as much for their cats as I have a long record of doing. I've read stories about puppy and kitty mills (thus far more about puppy mills because they're more available or easy to run into -- they're on the news all the time) and my place does not match with that profile at all. Maybe I should run a kitty mill -- it would sure be cheaper and you think I do anyway -- if I ran my place like a mill I'd have a lot less vet bills and cheaper food, less or no vaccine, no flipping blood tests on my parent cats, I wouldn't have to worry about my cat rooms/separating cats/avoiding overcrowding, I wouldn't have to furnish my cat rooms, I wouldn't need cat rooms because I could just stick them in little crowded cages outside (like the pics I've seen of puppy mills), I wouldn't have to treat my ear mites or fleas and worms that I don't see (worms in case there are fleas because cats will lick the flea eggs off of their hair and that causes worms and I don't want worms -- treatment as a preventative),I wouldn't have to take my adult cats or kittens to the vet when they do look like they have a problem, I wouldn't need to clean up after my cats all the time, etc.etc. -- heck I could go bonkers and make money instead of breaking even on a good season! Maybe, since you think this is a mill or you think I'm a horrid backyard breeder anyway I should just go for it? There was a nifty story about a kitty mill on the local news last year. This mill owner had Persians and she kept them in these tiny wire cages -- old nasty rabbit or chicken cages basically. Many of the cats had lost their feet because of the wire floor cages and all of the cats were 1/2 starved, sick, flea/worm/mite ridden, hair matted from never being groomed or shaved (the mill owner never even tried to groom or shave), etc. The Humane Society had to put a large number of the rescued cats down because they were in such poor shape that they couldn't be saved. Many other cats from that mill needed limbs amputated because they were so badly damaged from the wire cages and infection. There is another kitty mill owner in my state who I have heard also keeps Persians in chicken cages in her yard -- she keeps them in the chicken cages with wire floors and all year around, even in the scalding hot summers and she doesn't even care when they die in there. She doesn't even provide roofs for them to help them survive. I do not know where she is located at though. In regards to my spelling -- sorry but it has always been pretty bad though I made good grades in college. Yes seven weeks is usually a bit early. I base the age of placement on the individual cats in the individual litters. These were robust kittens who appeared to be very healthy here. Yet it is better to wait until the kittens are older. 12 weeks to 14 weeks is the ideal. > Yes seven weeks is usually a bit early. I base the age of placement on the > individual cats in the individual litters. These were robust kittens who > appeared to be very healthy here. Yet it is better to wait until the > kittens are older. 12 weeks to 14 weeks is the ideal. Can't you find a better way to make a living than exploiting wonderful creatures? Have you no abilities at all? Ah, I see. I think you are possibly reacting to my nasty-grams to the nasty- gram people who wrote to me? Hopefully I didn't accidentally put one of these mean replies in the wrong spot because I am not used to using a forum and I see that some of my replies seem to be in the wrong place. In any case, I don't believe that I am exploiting cats -- if I were I'd be making more money and have less vet bills from things like blood tests (to make sure my parent cats don't have certain diseases), vet checks, vaccines, grooming supplies, housing, helping out clients when a minor problem has cropped up (an occurance which has actually been very rare), etc. Moreover, if I were exploiting my cats I'm 100% sure that I'd have more litters of kittens because my cats are certainly willing to breed more often than I let them! > Ah, I see. I think you are possibly reacting to my nasty-grams to the nasty- > gram people who wrote to me? Hopefully I didn't accidentally put one of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > kittens because my cats are certainly willing to breed more often than I > let them! Who are you talking to? If you are talking to me, understand that breeding cats, particularly when you don't know what you're doing, is abusive and stupid. Those of us who love cats hate people who do what you do. Hi Mary, I was writing some nasty-grams to someone who was bashing me royally. Now I went to reply to a note from you on this forum and I had to sign in again so who knows where this is going to appear now. Anyway, in regards to, "who are you talking to..." above is the answer. Regading breeding cats when you don't know what you're doing as being stupid and whatnot -- I agree. However, I am not a person who totally doesn't know what I'm doing. I am a person who has had a good program, made a lot of clients very happy, made my vet a little richer (or maybe I've made my vet more than a little richer) and have done well but haven't made a lot of money until very recently. Recently, I made a mistake or two. Recently I messed up. What I've tried to explain repeatedly is that this hasn't happened to me before. That's why I posted to begin with -- I needed some help to figure this situation out and to do better. >>Yes seven weeks is usually a bit early. I base the age of placement on the >>individual cats in the individual litters. These were robust kittens who [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Can't you find a better way to make a living than exploiting > wonderful creatures? Have you no abilities at all? Mary......Picture this if you will. Your beloved cat companion has just died. You are longing for another cat companion. You look all around to find a beloved friend. There are none. The shelters have not had any for months, friends and acquaintences don't have any either. Where do you go now? Oh wait, you can't go anywhere to get a cat companion, because they have all been spayed or neutered, and have not been able to reproduce any kittens. I can understand that you think that spaying and neutering your pets is a good thing, and in most cases it is. However, remember that the people who breed cats and dogs are usually responsible/reputable breeders who know the ins and outs of the different breeds, and when and how often a cat/dog should be bred. I am aware that there are a lot of puppy/kittens mills out there, but not everyone who breed cats/dogs is one of them. Please don't condemn someone for what they do, after all, it takes all kinds of people to make this world go around. Jacquie, I'm going to disagree with about everything you said. I hope you take it in the spirit of usenet and not personally. No one, anywhere, in the United States, will fail to find a kitten if they're willing to check every shelter and rescue in a 50-mile radius. I can promise you this. This is still going to be true of our children, and maybe our grandchildren. It's going to take a long time to turn around the Titanic of our current overpopulation state. And even if kittens *did* become scarce, that's a good thing. Personally I would love to see every kitten such a precious and rare commodity that people had to get on waiting lists. We'd have no more dumped cats, far less abuse, less starving strays, and less euthanasia. And responsible breeders are the minority, not the majority. Kitten mills are alive and well, but even more so, the ordinary family who buys a "mommy cat" and a "daddy cat" and decides to make money having kittens. They don't have a clue what they're doing, they'll sell to anything with money in their hand, and they don't require spay/neuter contracts. And, yes, I condemn them. I have that right, because I am the one who spends a great deal of my time and my money trying to clean up the mess they're creating. Sherry > Jacquie, I'm going to disagree with about everything you said. I hope > you take it in the spirit of usenet and not personally. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > Sherry Sherry, I too see the results of unwanted, overbred, abused, and unloved cats. I too know the ramifications of the kitten/puppy mills. I simply was stating that not all breeders are like that. I also wish that we could have things such as waiting lists for cats, dogs, birds.....heck, all pets. Unfortunately, those waiting lists are for purebred, or pedigree animals only. I strongly feel that we do not have the right to condemn every person who is a breeder. Unless I know all of the circumstances, and have seen with my own eyes each individual breeders animals and facilities, I must give them the benefit of the doubt. This may be unfortunate, but true. Don't worry, you have not offended me in any way, and I have not taken what you stated personally in any way. Believe me, if I could personally watch over ever animal breeder world wide, I would. However, I am not a super human, and that is just not possible. All I can do is watch over the ones in my area, and pray that those who are doing it just for the almighty dollar, will in some way come to an untimely.......well, you know what I mean. Hope all is well with you and your furbaby(s). Jacquie. >I strongly feel that we do not have the >right to condemn every person who is a >breeder. Yes, we do. The very serious problem of overpopulation and the resulting killing of vast numbers of innocent animal KILLED every year for lack of homes is NOT A SECRET. Anybody, and I mean ANYBODY that adds even one more kitten to the equation should be condemned as they have created a situation which results in one less home for cats that already exist. NO breeder on the planet has earned nor deserves a special pass that absolves them from being responsible for the death of innocents. http://community.webtv.net/zuzu22/overpopulation Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray I am all for this statement, "I strongly feel that we do not have the right to condemn every person who is a breeder. Unless I know all of the circumstances, and have seen with my own eyes each individual breeders animals and facilities, I must give them the benefit of the doubt. This may be unfortunate, but true." I am especially for people SEEING the cats and facility before they bash any breeder. I am also a believer in trying to educate and help out before bashing others who are trying to do their best. For breeders who care education is something they will welcome. Everyone makes mistakes and everyone has to learn from their mistakes. Even the best breeders have made an occasional mess at some point in their lives as cat or dog or whatever animal breeder. In regards to show cat breeders their doo-doo stinks too. I obtained two top quality Persians from a breeder who shows both in the USA and in Europe. Her cats are some of the best in the world. Her house is a mansion and it is full of endless ribbons, trophies and other awards. She is a judge for show cats. Etc.Etc. I could probably write a book about how Godlike this woman is. Well, her cats are kept in individual cages and they are pretty much feral because of a lack of attention and TLC. They don't know what it's like to be held or pet or much of anything else. But she is one of the top (could NEVER be accused of being a backyard breeder) out there. Go figure. > I am all for this statement, "I strongly feel that we do not have the right > to condemn every person who is a breeder. Unless I know all of the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > one of the top (could NEVER be accused of being a backyard breeder) out > there. Go figure. I'm surprised by all the attacks on you. I'm sure you're a nice person. Somebody on this thread supplied a link that talked about Breeding quality, Show quality, and Pet quality. In my opinion, pet quality is what should be bred. The goal is to produce good pets, so they have to be pets first before they can be judged. Some people on this thread a concerned about pet overpopulation. Many of the cats breeding today are wild animals and wild animals die. Not just, cats, but any animal out in the forest is going to have a high death rate. You just have to accept the fact that for many animals, a high death rate is normal. I don't view that as a sufficient reason to not breed cats. If we spay all the pets and just let the feral ones breed, that may change the breed in ways we don't like. > I'm surprised by all the attacks on you. I'm sure you're a nice person. > Somebody on this thread supplied a link that talked about Breeding quality, > Show quality, and Pet quality. In my opinion, pet quality is what should be > bred. The goal is to produce good pets, so they have to be pets first > before they can be judged. Except "pet quality" animals are produced by the millions already. They are already in shelters waiting for a home. > Some people on this thread a concerned about pet overpopulation. Many of > the cats breeding today are wild animals and wild animals die. ONly a fraction of the cats brought to shelters by the general public are "wild", i.e. feral. The vast majority are simply the product of uncontrolled breeding. We're talking about healthy, adoptable kittens and cats of all ages. They are, for the majority, the offspring of abandoned pets and free-roaming, owned unneutered cats. Not just, > cats, but any animal out in the forest is going to have a high death rate. > You just have to accept the fact that for many animals, a high death rate is > normal. I don't view that as a sufficient reason to not breed cats. If we > spay all the pets and just let the feral ones breed, that may change the > breed in ways we don't like. Except they aren't dying naturally in the forest. They're dying with an injection of sodium pentobarbitol at the hands of employees paid by your tax dollars. If compassion and ethics aren't enough to convince someone that the breeding has got to stop, just think about the millions of taxpayer dollars spent each year on building and staffing shelters, abuse investigations, and "warehousing" and the 8-12 million (yes, that's MILLION) dogs and cats that enter shelters each year. Add to it the cost of euthanizing EIGHT MILLION of those 12 million dogs and cats. Sherry >>In my opinion, pet quality is what > should be [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Sherry Absolutely! Every one of my cats was "pet quality" (read: *not* purebred). No one could possibly have come up with finer cats, regardless of breeding practices. They have been beautiful to look at and even more beautiful in the ways that really count (behavior, personality, companionship, etc.). In my opinion, each of my cats has been perfect -- and there are uncounted numbers of others like them that will be euthanized simply because there are not enough homes for them. MaryL > Absolutely! Every one of my cats was "pet quality" (read: *not* purebred). > No one could possibly have come up with finer cats, regardless of breeding > practices. They have been beautiful to look at and even more beautiful in > the ways that really count (behavior, personality, companionship, etc.). In > my opinion, each of my cats has been perfect Aren't those the sort of cats that people should be breeding? >> Absolutely! Every one of my cats was "pet quality" (read: *not* > purebred). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Aren't those the sort of cats that people should be breeding? The point is (which I probably didn't make clear) is that none of my "pet quality" cat were purebred. They were wonderful, gorgeous cats -- but not what breeders are trying to achieve. They were happy accidents of nature, as are many millions of other cats. They were also cats that had homes precisely because I did *not* purchase purebred cats. MaryL | The point is (which I probably didn't make clear) is that none of my "pet | quality" cat were purebred. They were wonderful, gorgeous cats -- but not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] | | MaryL I'm being very serious: Aren't all cats gorgeous? And if they're not, then they have behavioural problems, mostly caused by humans? I even feel like going one step further: Wouldn't this just apply to all animals? And now I'm getting brave: Could it even be applied to humans too? Carola > | The point is (which I probably didn't make clear) is that none of my > "pet [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Carola Yes, I think almost every cat that is healthy and well-cared-for is beautiful -- in all meanings of the word. MaryL Sherry, I've got to tell you that you're quote of, "No one, anywhere, in the United States, will fail to find a kitten if they're willing to check every shelter and rescue in a 50-mile radius. I can promise you this..." is pretty much untrue in my area. I have clients who search in a 100 plus mile radius and they cannot find a kitten through a shelter/rescue or anywhere else unless they are willing to pay for and actually want to own a purebred show cat. My clients in general are well able to afford a purebred show kitten, but they are not interested in that. The average distance my clients drive to see me is between 50 to 200 miles one way. >>>Sherry, I've got to tell you that you're quote of, "No one, anywhere, in the United States, will fail to find a kitten if they're willing to check every shelter and rescue in a 50-mile radius. I can promise you this..." is pretty much untrue in my area. I have clients who search in a 100 plus mile radius and they cannot find a kitten through a shelter/rescue or anywhere else unless they are willing to pay for and actually want to own a purebred show cat. My clients in general are well able to afford a purebred show kitten, but they are not interested in that. The average distance my clients drive to see me is between 50 to 200 miles one way. <<< Bullshit. So what you're trying to tell me is, your clients aren't really interested in your "purebred show" kittens...they just can't find kittens, and you're providing this wonderful service. Yeah, right. Tell me where you live in the US, and I guarantee between shelters, municipal pounds, rescue groups, or "free kitten" ads in the paper, I'll find a kitten. We euthanize kittens by the *millions* in this country. There are *plenty* of kittens to go around, already born. Sherry What if you live in a county that dos not have an animal shelter or pound? Shadow Walker > >>>Sherry, > I've got to tell you that you're quote of, "No one, anywhere, in the [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Sherry > What if you live in a county that dos not have an animal shelter or pound? > > Shadow Walker I think most civilized countries do have rescue organizations of some kind. I assume you're asking this hypothetically. You live in Texas, right? Sherry | but even more so, the ordinary family who | buys a "mommy cat" and a "daddy cat" and decides to make money having [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] | | Sherry But if they do it to make money, they cannot calculate. If I add what I spend for food, worming, ear treatment, shots then the kitten is already expensive when it's 10 weeks old. It can only work out financially if you have purebreds where you can ask for a good price. But then again here if someone wants to afford a purebred he wants papers too, so backyard breeders don't have much of a chance. Right, we have discussed this before: In northern Europe we don't have much of a kitten problem. (Not in the south, there the cat colonies take over whole ancient cities!) I believe the reason is that everyone normally cares for the kittens, and the ones who adopt are usually aware of the fact that it is a lifetime commitment. We have so few cats and dogs in the shelters that we can 'import' from the south and the east, but that's another topic. Carola Carola wrote: >>>But if they do it to make money, they cannot calculate. If I add what I spend for food, worming, ear treatment, shots then the kitten is already expensive when it's 10 weeks old. It can only work out financially if you have purebreds where you can ask for a good price. But then again here if someone wants to afford a purebred he wants papers too, so backyard breeders don't have much of a chance. >>>> That's why the OP pracices do-it-yourself vet care. She's got a vet who provides medications without actually examining the cat. That's why she was strangely silent when asked about PKD and other testing. That's why she sells at 7-8 weeks--she gets her money faster and spends less per kitten. Most breeders claim a "love of the breed" is their reward, and stick with one breed they are extremely knowledgeable about per genetics. The OP has several different breeds --which gives more variety to sell. She's also selling outcross and non-papered kittens -- a responsible breeder would never DREAM of doing that. Think about this -- it's the most important aspect of this whole deal. She's selling non-papered and papered kittens and not requiring contracts. She has no control over whether those kittens go on to breed even more moggies.. <<<< <<In northern Europe we don't have much of a kitten problem. (Not in the south, there the cat colonies take over whole ancient cities!) I believe the reason is that everyone normally cares for the kittens, and the ones who adopt are usually aware of the fact that it is a lifetime commitment. I have heard that mentioned on the newsgroups many times, and it's always been curious to me. But, whatever the reason for it, it's wonderful that you all don't have the heartbreak associated with a critical overpopulation of healthy kittens. I hope you never do. And I hope you understand the reasons that some Americans get absolutely crazy at the mention of backyard breeding. At the thought of creating more kittens when beautiful, healthy kittens & adults are killed in this country by the millions. Worst of all, this OP's kittens aren't all purebreds, and aren't all papered, and she has no control over whether they're bred.. She's basically just cranking out more moggies. Sherry > Right, we have discussed this before: > In northern Europe we don't have much of a kitten problem. (Not in the > south, there the cat colonies take over whole ancient cities!) Shelters in the UK don't put down cats at all, unless it is medically necessary. It's pretty difficult to get kittens from shelters here, there aren't many available. A mate of mine recently adopted 3 cats, aged 13 years old, from a shelter, and she said you practically have to beg before they'll let you have a cat (-: Amanda Amanda wrote: >>>A mate of mine recently adopted 3 cats, aged 13 years old, from a shelter, and she said you practically have to beg before they'll let you have a cat (-: And that's the way it should be. Unfortunately, this OP has indicated that she's so desperate to sell kittens that she homes them at 6-8 weeks, just because that's what the "client wants." She's placing the opportunity to sell the kitten before what's actually *best* for the kitten, which is staying with their mum at least another three weeks. She says if she doesn't sell at that age, people will go elsewhere and spend their money. Sherry > And that's the way it should be. Unfortunately, this OP has indicated > that she's so desperate to sell kittens that she homes them at 6-8 > weeks, just because that's what the "client wants." That does seem very young. When I found the (now bigger) of our stray cat cubs, the vet estimated his age as about 8 weeks, away from his mother for about a week or so (from his condition) and said he shouldn't have left his family at that stage. Obviously as he was found tied up in a bin bag, the choice wasn't mine! He was tiny, and although he ate and used the litter tray properly, he was quite clingy for a while and didn't like being left alone at all for a while. When our cat had kittens when I was 13 or so, our vet recommended keeping them with their mother until they were at least 12-14 weeks old. One went to his new home at 12 weeks, one we kept for good (she's now 14), and the other two (who went to the same home) we kept until 17 weeks owing to the circumstances of the new family - they were moving house or something. By 14 weeks, Mama cat had just about had enough of 3 growing kittens bouncing around, and would retreat to the top of a cupboard from time to time to get some peace and quiet! She didn't seem sorry to see the pair of them leave together at 17 weeks, and settled down. They weren't any particular breed - just "cattus moggus", father unknown.... And before anyone gets upset, it wasn't the equivalent of kitten murder - in London a cat having one litter of kittens doesn't mean that a litter in a shelter dies. Amanda Why would you breed kittens when there are so many in shelters both kill & no-kill. You are a very selfish person. Take a walk through a shelter once and look around will ya! What did your vet say about all this? You *did* take the kittens for a vet check didn't you, at the time the kitten was dewormed and vaccinated? Sherry > What did your vet say about all this? > You *did* take the kittens for a vet check didn't you, at the time the > kitten was dewormed and vaccinated? Can you even believe this thing? Okay, who is "Can you believe this thing?" A penname will do or perhaps a more specific question so that I might try to answer it. > Okay, who is "Can you believe this thing?" A penname will do or perhaps a > more specific question so that I might try to answer it. Your posts are reaching Usenet, though you are posting from a web site. Do you know that Google is archiving your posts forever? And if you don't include a snippet of the post to which you are referring most people just think you're talking to yourself. Why do you have a name like a porn actress? I thought you bred cats for a living. Hi Mary, LOL! "A name like a pron actress," eh?!?!?! Alas, I'm afraid I'm not one of those. I do breed cats but I wouldn't go so far as to state that I breed cats for a living. As for my posts being stored and it looking like I'm talking to myself (even though I'm not) oh well. People generally think what they want anyway no matter any proof to the contrary. On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:56:35 -0500, "Mary" <marys@catlover.com> >> Okay, who is "Can you believe this thing?" A penname will do or perhaps a >> more specific question so that I might try to answer it. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Why do you have a name like a porn actress? I thought you bred cats >for a living. Sounds more Wiccan to me. http://www.botanical.com/botanical/mgmh/n/nighde05.html excerpt: "According to old legends, the plant belongs to the devil who goes about trimming and tending it in his leisure, and can only be diverted from its care on one night in the year, that is on Walpurgis, when he is preparing for the witches' sabbath. The apples of Sodom are held to be related to this plant, and the name Belladonna is said to record an old superstition that at certain times it takes the form of an enchantress of exceeding loveliness, whom it is dangerous to look upon, though a more generally accepted view is that the name was bestowed on it because its juice was used by the Italian ladies to give their eyes greater brilliancy, the smallest quantity having the effect of dilating the pupils of the eye." Although, Nightshade is also sometimes called Belladonna and wouldn't you know it, that is a pornstar's name: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0068643/ (Don't worry - no porn on that site, just a list of the 100+ movies she's appeared in over a 5 year period) > On Sun, 6 Mar 2005 00:56:35 -0500, "Mary" <marys@catlover.com> > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > (Don't worry - no porn on that site, just a list of the 100+ movies > she's appeared in over a 5 year period) Porn does not worry me. :) Thank you for the informative post! Did you know that Belladonna used to be used as a laxative about 100 years ago? | Porn does not worry me. :) Thank you for the informative post! | Did you know that Belladonna used to be used as a laxative | about 100 years ago? I have some Belladonna tablets in my cupboard which help ease tension (not on prescription either) - and they work!! Carola Out of the four kittens I sold on that particular weekend, the other three also went to the vet. Two for basic wellness exams and those two had no problems whatsoever even though they were kept in the same place as the kittens with reported fleas and also the one (one of the two Mainecoon outcross) with the reported death's door resp infection. What does my vet say about this? Well, since I did not hear about the reported problem in time to do anything with my vet yet I don't know. However, I am getting medication (described above) and external products to deal with any potential problem which may exist here. I would have liked to take the kitten (that is reportedly so ill) to my vet directly, but the kitten was far away and the buyer did not contact me to inform me of any potential or concrete problem prior. The kitten was not ill here so what can my vet say? None of my other cats appear ill and I've been looking at them very closely and hyper=compulsively for days now. I also have not been able to find a single flea or flea dirt on any of my cats and I've looked believe me. My vet has seen so much of my other cats and there has NEVER been a problem even remotely like this before. That's why I was so freaked out. If I had had a history of fleas and very sick cats and kittens and whatnot I would not have been freaked out. >confused. That kitten was seven weeks old -- I'm 100% positive. <snip> > Anyhow, Does anyone on this forum have any information >about the potential situation here? Has anyone ever heard of a similar >story? I'm really pretty freaked out because I have always done the best >that I could to keep my cats healthy and my clients satisfied and this >episode is something right out ot the Twilight Zone to me. Gods, where to start..... To begin with, I am *appalled* that you sold a seven week old kitten. Eight weeks is considered the absolute minimum age for a baby animal to leave Mom, and responsible breeders wait until kittens are 12-16 weeks old. You denied that kitten time to be naturally weaned, time to learn to use the litterbox from Mom, time to learn to use a scratching post from Mom, time to learn bite and claw inhibition from Mom and littermates. Honestly, I am not surprised that the kitten stopped eating -- it's a common reaction to stress in cats, and the stress that baby underwent is enormous. As for fleas and ear mites, *you* should have been checking your cats and kittens. Actually you should have had those rescue puppies in quarantine where they belonged until you could be sure they weren't carrying anything harmful to your cats. The puppies are also likely where the kitten got the worms -- you do know that baby animals with access to the outdoors or access to animals witrh access to the outdoors should be wormed at least once a month until they are six months old, right? As for the 'blood test', I am assuming that's a titre test, which is not always accurate in such a young kitten. Why didn't you send the kitten's shot records home with it? Responsible breeders keep a mini-medical record for each kitten, including the labels from the vaccines given. As for what you should do about this, only your own ethics can guide you. You did sell them a sick, too-young kitten -- those are absolute facts. Whether is was knowingly or not is of course the area that can't be proven one way or the other. I also think that you should read over the Guide linked to in my sig and see if you pass those standards. If not, you need to decide what kind of breeder you want to be -- responsible or not. Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid I too used to be appalled at the age of kittens being sold in this state. However, I learned the hard way -- six weeks old is the standard, period! I never sell a kitten at six weeks nor do I always sell kittens at seven or eight weeks. I base it on the individual kittens in the individual litter. Many kittens are not placed until they are indeed 12 weeks or older. My Persian kittens are NEVER placed before they are between 12 and 14 weeks. I prefer to place kittens when they are older even though it becomes difficult trying to convince the buyers that a nine or ten or eleven or twelve, etc. week old kitten truly is still a baby cat. In regards to your standards, I'd like to look at that list. However, I'd rather you not completely judge me by this last week or so. > I too used to be appalled at the age of kittens being sold in this state. > However, I learned the hard way -- six weeks old is the standard, period! What an a.s you are. I don't believe the question, "What kind of a*s are you?" is really a great question because you are not telling me what about me makes me an a*s in your book. I cannot determine if you're reacting the idea that I breed cats or if you're responding to the story of what happened with the recently sort-of sold kitten or if you're reacting to my nasty-grams to the nasty- grams I received, etc. If I am an a*s to replying to nasty-grams in the same nasty tone than you are right about me -- nobody likes to be kicked around, insulted, verbally abused or judged without a chance to answer direct open questions or defend themselves with any and all potential facts. There are facts in this case. Moreover, I never said that I was great or perfect. I have already admitted to fault. However, the bottom line remains what it is. The kitten was not ill when it left here, etc. > I don't believe the question, "What kind of a*s are you?" is really a great > question because you are not telling me what about me makes me an a*s in [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > great or perfect. I have already admitted to fault. However, the bottom > line remains what it is. The kitten was not ill when it left here, etc. You really are an a.s. Only a bigger a.s would disagree with this. Yes apparently she is insane. >I too used to be appalled at the age of kittens being sold in this state. >However, I learned the hard way -- six weeks old is the standard, period! What state is that? And how did you 'learn the hard way'? >I >never sell a kitten at six weeks nor do I always sell kittens at seven or >eight weeks. I base it on the individual kittens in the individual litter. >Many kittens are not placed until they are indeed 12 weeks or older. My >Persian kittens are NEVER placed before they are between 12 and 14 weeks. How many breeds do you have? I'd think that the cost of PKD testing, HCM testing, and FHD testing on the Persians alone would be extremely difficult to deal with? > In regards to your >standards, I'd like to look at that list. http:\\nik.ascendancy.net\orchid It's my guide for pet buyers who are looking for a healthy, responsibly-bred, well-bred kitten. Look at the breeder interview section and honestly consider what your answers to that hypothetical buyer would be and whether or not they'd be 'correct' answers. Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid I too used to be appalled at the age of kittens being sold in this state. >However, I learned the hard way -- six weeks old is the standard, period! What state is that? And how did you 'learn the hard way'? ************************************************************************ Considering how unpleasant so many people have been I don't think I want to say what state this is. I learned the hard way by looking at what others were doing (the age at which their kittens were typically sold) and not agreeing with it -- so I did not market any of my kittens until they were significantly older than the age at which others were selling and/or placing their kittens. I would place my kittens at between 12 and 14 weeks. The clients and/or buyers would then reward me by insisting that they wanted a kitten not a teenage or older cat. I would explain to them all that I have been told on this site and much more and the clients would not get it. I would refer my clients to my cats books and my vet for informatio and my clients did not care. They wanted a "kitten." The clients would then go elsewhere (buying kittens between the ages of 6-8 weeks) and my kittens were not being placed. Those 6-8 week old kittens would then receive dream homes while my kittens continued to wait for a family of their own. My friends and others I knew would update me on the dream homes their kittens were getting so I go the regular reports. After awhile I tried it myself -- placing kittens younger and it went great until just recently. I do not place 6 week olds though. ************************************************************************ >I >never sell a kitten at six weeks nor do I always sell kittens at seven or >eight weeks. I base it on the individual kittens in the individual litter. >Many kittens are not placed until they are indeed 12 weeks or older. My >Persian kittens are NEVER placed before they are between 12 and 14 weeks. How many breeds do you have? I'd think that the cost of PKD testing, HCM testing, and FHD testing on the Persians alone would be extremely difficult to deal with? *********************************************************************** The cost is difficult to deal with. It costs $30 per cat at my vet's office. No office fee for just the blood work. The blood test for $30.-- covers both Feline Leukemia and Kitty HIV (as I put it to clients so they will understand). I have a number of breeds but not that many cats per catagory. Specifically I have the following: Persian, Manx, Maincoon, Siamese, Russian Blue. (I have two RB total). A general vet visit is also $30 and I use that service pretty regularly but unfortunately not for the past month. A kitten litter exam is the same. Fort Dodge vaccine, the one I prefer, is about $8.00 per shot -- I usually buy in trays though because I have been known to vaccinate ranch cats at other's places and it's good to have a tray around. A poop exam for worms is $15.00 per cat -- a service I've also used a lot -- just to make sure there aren't any. ********************************************************************** > In regards to your >standards, I'd like to look at that list. http:\\nik.ascendancy.net\orchid It's my guide for pet buyers who are looking for a healthy, responsibly-bred, well-bred kitten. Look at the breeder interview section and honestly consider what your answers to that hypothetical buyer would be and whether or not they'd be 'correct' answers >I too used to be appalled at the age of kittens being sold in this state. >>However, I learned the hard way -- six weeks old is the standard, period! [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Considering how unpleasant so many people have been I don't think I want to >say what state this is. I was simply curious because I don't know of any states where it is *legal* to sell an animal before the age of 8 weeks old. Perhaps you could privately email me? >I learned the hard way by looking at what others >were doing (the age at which their kittens were typically sold) and not >agreeing with it -- so I did not market any of my kittens until they were >significantly older than the age at which others were selling and/or >placing their kittens. Why were you breeding litters without homes lined up? Every responsible breeder I know generally has waiting lists, not the other way around. > After awhile I tried it myself -- >placing kittens younger and it went great until just recently. I do not >place 6 week olds though. I would be inclined to say that if you can't place kittens at an appropriate age, you might want to reconsider the number of litters you are producing. Placing kittens at 8 weeks or below significantly impacts their chances of staying in one home for their whole lives -- there have been studies regarding this. > How many breeds do you have? I'd think that the cost of PKD >testing, HCM testing, and FHD testing on the Persians alone would be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >covers both Feline Leukemia and Kitty HIV (as I put it to clients so they >will understand). Yes, but what about testing for HCM, PKD, and FHD? Considering those are major genetic health problems in at least three of the breeds you list (and HCM is a problem that should be tested for in all breeding cats) you should be testing for them. Why aren't you? >I have a number of breeds but not that many cats per >catagory. Specifically I have the following: Persian, Manx, Maincoon, >Siamese, Russian Blue. (I have two RB total). Orchid See Orchid's Kitties! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Want a Purebred Cat? Read This! -- http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid Orchid, What's a "Maine Coon outcross" anyway? The outcross part I mean? Doesn't any else find it peculiar that she sells with no contract? Does this mean she sells whole kittens with no spay/neuter agreement? Or declaw provison? Do you find it peculiar that she's breeding and selling FIVE different breeds? The only breeders that could be called "responsible", or as close to that as I'm willing to compromise, claim they breed for the love of the breed. They're very well educated on their particular breed, and very knowledgeable about the genetics of the breed. Five different breeds just sounds to me like she's trying to make money off of selling kittens, period. Sherry Nightshade wroe: << I would place my kittens at between 12 and 14 weeks. The clients and/or buyers would then reward me by insisting that they wanted a kitten not a teenage or older cat. I would explain to them all that I have been told on this site and much more and the clients would not get it. I would refer my clients to my cats books and my vet for informatio and my clients did not care. They wanted a "kitten." The clients would then go elsewhere (buying kittens between the ages of 6-8 weeks) and my kittens were not being placed. << Clarification: You mean your kittens weren't being *sold*. And you let the almighty dollar dictate the age to sell them. That tells us your motives, not what's best for the kitten. As for the 'blood test', I am assuming that's a titre test, which is not always accurate in such a young kitten. Why didn't you send the kitten's shot records home with it? Responsible breeders keep a mini-medical record for each kitten, including the labels from the vaccines given. I did send the shot record with the kitten. The problem was that the buyer insisted their vet ran some kind of blood test on the kitten and stated that the kitten had not received any vaccine. The kitten had had his first shot at six weeks of age -- the eariest age, according to my vet, that a kitten can get a first shot. It really freaked me out that the buyer's vet made so many statements about the kitten that were not true -- the kitten was seven weeks old and the kitten had received a first vaccine. I was totally confused about how on earth a vet could make the drastically inaccurate statements the buyer said their vet made. I have never in my life experienced anything like this. okay..where to begin....I think it is rude and arrogant to chew people out on web forums...we all make mistakes and have to learn from them. At one time or another all breeders had to start their cattery and make there own mistakes. My advice is that you write this kitten off as a mistake. Write up a sales contract and use it for all future sales. email me and I can give you an example of a great contract (collardak@charter.net) Get all your payments in full before the kitten is allowed to leave. I know you said this was a crazy time for you and weird circumstance but try to get payment or you never will. Keep vet records on ALL animals. Take an evening...get online and really research what having a cattery requires. You may learn its not for you, you dont have the time or how you can improve your cattery. I wish you all the luck in your endeavors. I breed sphynx cats and while we have had a few learning mistakes along the way we learn from them and move on. Hi there, I will be using a contract from now on believe me! However, thanks for the offer to let me see one of yours. I'll email you as soon as I figure out how to get that information off of this forum. As for basically writing this kitten off (i.e. in regards to the payment) -- I know, that's what I plan to do. I was just really freaked out when I wrote my initial post because I've never had a problem like this. Moreover, I've never let a kitten go without full payment before and I never will again. About receiving info on how to better run my little cattery, that sounds good to me! Though I've been at this for a number of years now (I've spent a ton of money on blood tests and other related health care -- stool tests on adult cats just to make sure there were no worms, medications, xrays, etc.) and have already learned a ton from the cattery owners who got me started and from my vet. Still I'm sure some more education would be a truly wonderful thing! > okay..where to begin....I think it is rude and arrogant to chew people out > on web forums...we all make mistakes and have to learn from them. At one [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > sphynx cats and while we have had a few learning mistakes along the way we > learn from them and move on. You are going directly to hell when you die. You will not get to pass Go. You will not get to collect your $200. May your life be hellish too. Breeding is evil. If breeding from tested stock is always totally evil and everyone who does it goes to Hell then there will certainly be a lot of people in Hell. If breeding is always evil and every cat on the planet is altered and never produces a litter then there will eventually be no more cats. If you believe that I was going to collect $200 from the above discussed kitten then you are incorrect. > If breeding from tested stock is always totally evil and everyone who does > it goes to Hell then there will certainly be a lot of people in Hell. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If you believe that I was going to collect $200 from the above discussed > kitten then you are incorrect. What goes around comes around. Surely you have some skills with which you might make a living instead of abusing helpless animals. You already have a great name for a porn actress. Maybe that is your calling. Think about it. Mary, regarding your post: "What goes around comes around. Surely you have some skills with which you might make a living instead of abusing helpless animals. You already have a great name for a porn actress. Maybe that is your calling. Think about it." That's a pretty lame and uninformed comment, don't you think? After all, you don't even know me. You have not seen me or my animals. You haven't seen anything whatsoever except for what is on this site, which cannot be considered a full dose of any reality. In any case, if what comes around goes around there is a Hell storm waiting for a ton of people and you are probably one of them. Hmmm, something about glass houses and how it isn't wise to throw stones comes to mind. I'm sure you're not perfect. What's in your closet that you'd never admit to anyone? Or are you just in denial? |
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