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Cat Forum / General Topics / January 2005My Siamese
In Febuary of this year I rescued a Siamese (she is not purebreed but the vet says she is really, really close)When I got Pheniox she was 4 months old and very mal nurioshed etc, so my vet advised against spaying her untill she was back on her feet, to make a long story short Pheniox had an apointment at the vet on Dec 3 to be fixed and guess what happens she turns up missing, apparently miss thing decided to go on a road trip and not come back for 3 days! To this day I have no idea how she got out, she had never been out before. Well as we all can guess she did not make it to the vet, and now is pregnant. I refuse to have her spayed while she is pregnant so she will have them and we will find them homes. My question is my husband also has a 4 month old kitten named Sasha, her and pheniox are best pals. When it comes time for the kittens to be born, should I try and keep sasha away (she is very nosy and very dependent on pheniox, Sasha cried everyday that pheniox was gone) or will pheniox lay down the ground rules for her. my other question is this I had a problem with Sasha trying to nurse on Pheniox (pheniox would let her) when we first got Sasha, i have finally broken her of that, do you think this will start again. This will be my first litter of grand"kittens", I can use any pointers. Maybe you should have thought about all of this before you let her out! > Maybe you should have thought about all of this before you let her out! Cindy.....if you had read the original post, you would have read that Holly DIDN'T KNOW how her cat got out. PLEASE know what you are talking about BEFORE you post such drival. >> Maybe you should have thought about all of this before you let her out! >> >Cindy.....if you had read the original post, you would have read that >Holly DIDN'T KNOW how her cat got out. PLEASE know what you are talking >about BEFORE you post such drival. Holly *knew* she was responsible for ensuring her unspayed cat did not escape. It is NOT rocket science to ensure a cat is confined, and it doesn't take a genius to figure out the cat was probably pregnant when she got it back. She should have immediately taken the cat in to be spayed. Carelessness and excuses are the reasons we are killing healthy kittens by the thousands in this country every day. Sherry >>>Maybe you should have thought about all of this before you let her out! >> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Sherry Sherry, Do you know the circumstances which occured regarding the "escape" of Pheonix? If not, then who are you to judge? She could very well have not had any control over her cat getting out of the house. Heck, she might not have even been home when the escape occured. So, you think that getting a cat spayed even though it is pregnant is okay? That's just murder, plain and simple. It may be acceptable where you are, but I know that in a lot of cases here in Ontario Canada, vets will NOT spay a pregnant cat. They will however help you to try to find good responsible homes for the kittens, with the agreement that whomever "adopts" them brings them in to be spayed or neutered. >So, you think that getting a cat spayed even though it is pregnant is >okay? That's just murder, plain and simple. It may be acceptable where >you are, but I know that in a lot of cases here in Ontario Canada, vets >will NOT spay a pregnant cat. Well, now, that's funny. Want to clue me in on her excuse for waiting another two weeks after the cat returned? She couldn't have possibly had the "pregnant" excuse THEN. So what was it? They will however help you to try to find >good responsible homes for the kittens, with the agreement that whomever >"adopts" them brings them in to be spayed or neutered. Total, utter, and complete bullshit. It takes more than an "agreement", honey. Sherry >>So, you think that getting a cat spayed even though it is pregnant is >>okay? That's just murder, plain and simple. It may be acceptable where [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Sherry Since we don't know the complete circumstances of the incident, I feel that we should let Holly do whatever she can to remedy her situation. Since you don't know me well enough to call me a "liar", I think that we had better end this useless bantering between us. Have a Merry Christmas Sherry, and may God bless you and yours. >Since we don't know the complete circumstances of the incident, I feel >that we should let Holly do whatever she can to remedy her situation. >Since you don't know me well enough to call me a "liar", I think that we >had better end this useless bantering between us. >Have a Merry Christmas Sherry, and may God bless you and yours. And you too. And on a final note, *someone* must accept responsibility to ensure that kittens adopted are neutered. "Finding good homes" is not enough. I do not think you're a liar. But I do believe you are very naive and have no clue just how many unwanted cats are born from simply "finding good homes" and not ensuring that cat is neutered. Sherry please read the post where i said i would have them fixed. I am 51 years old I really hope I past nieve a long time ago. you have a merry christmas okay. I am off to see if I can find a forum to answer my question for me. But i hope that you will consider the fact that I have over 20 cats in my life time, either mine or fostering and pheniox is the first one to ever get pregnant. >please read the post where i said i would have them fixed. I am 51 years old >I really hope I past nieve a long time ago. you have a merry christmas okay. >I am off to see if I can find a forum to answer my question for me. Rec.pets.cats.health+behav is a good group, with a lot of knowledgeable people. Sherry > >Since we don't know the complete circumstances of the incident, I feel > >that we should let Holly do whatever she can to remedy her situation. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > clue just how many unwanted cats are born from simply "finding good homes" and > not ensuring that cat is neutered. Oh FFS give it a rest, you have made your point. There's no need to hound Holly like you are doing like she's the subject of some sort of a witch hunt.  SignatureI.P.Freely >Oh FFS give it a rest, you have made your point. There's no need to hound >Holly like you are doing like she's the subject of some sort of a witch >hunt. Do you have anything useful to contribute on the subject of breeding/overpopulation? Sherry > >Oh FFS give it a rest, you have made your point. There's no need to hound > >Holly like you are doing like she's the subject of some sort of a witch > >hunt. > > Do you have anything useful to contribute on the subject of > breeding/overpopulation? Not really, you seem to say it all ... repeatedly. Do you have anything useful to contribute to the original questions asked by Holly? SignatureI.P.Freely >Do you have anything useful to contribute to the original questions asked by >Holly? Oh yeah, her "questions." 1. Do we think Sasha will start to nurse on Phoenix when the kittens are born. Does it really matter *what* we think? How the hell are we supposed to know? ESP? 2. What to do with existing cat. Now, this one takes a rocket scientist. Isolate the new mother and kittens. After the kittens are a few weeks old, see how the cat behaves *under supervised conditions". D'oh. Sherry I am glad you are so smart maybe if you would go back and read some of your own post you would see how bitter you are. Thanks for making someone feel dumb sherry. > I am glad you are so smart maybe if you would go back and read some of your own post you would see how bitter you are. Thanks for making someone feel dumb sherry. Get over your martyr routine, toots. You are in the wrong, and those who defend you are even worse. Your "rental agent" let the cat out? Why didn't you inform her about the cat, or shut the cat somewhere where she could not get out? Better yet, why didn't you spay her? You know damned well she was strong enough for months before she got pregnant. Mary apparently you did not read my post correctly. I said my vet did not clear Pheniox for spaying untill November, I made an appointment for Dec there first availability. As far as her getting out I did nt know my rental agent was coming in to the property so I had no control over her getting out. >>Do you have anything useful to contribute to the original questions asked by >>Holly? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Does it really matter *what* we think? How the hell are we supposed to know? > ESP? There might just possibly be some people who could say based on their experiences with cats. You apparently trusted your "ESP" to wildy guess at the circumstances of the cat getting pregnant in the first place > 2. What to do with existing cat. Now, this one takes a rocket scientist. > Isolate the new mother and kittens. After the kittens are a few weeks old, see > how the cat behaves *under supervised conditions". D'oh. Maybe you'd like to share some of your experiences... aint' got any? Shut up then. Kthxbye. Holly, It would of course depend on the cats, but by the time the preggers one drops, the kitten will be old enough not to feel the need to nurse. Will they get along? Doesn't really matter. I've seen older kittens who hiss at newborns/kittens and some that ignore them and a couple that help with babysitting. Either way there's not much real danger. Mamacat is more than capable of telling the little cat "NO" if need be. pat > Sherry >Maybe you'd like to share some of your experiences... aint' got any? >Shut up then. Kthxbye. Just the kind of reply I'd expect from rpl (Pat). From a previous post: "I wasn't going to get them fixed; I had (with extreme effort I may add) almost completely trained them not to spray inside the house (male cat spray is easily the most offensive substance in the universe), then both of them dragged their a.ses back home with only 6 working legs between them one night and bled *profusely* all over the place; well one of them did, the other one only got as far as next door and collapsed; he turned out to have a separated hip (or whatever they call it) as well as the lacerations. That one eventually went to some people down the street who had an older cat that needed company; and I watched (somewhat sadly) while one of my boys gradually lost the jowls and extreme muscle tone after I got them both fixed. The girls on the other hand; the "grandma" had had over 30 kittens and was in a sorry state, and we had run out of catless friends/relatives and were down to people who couldn't really take care of them." I see you have *lots* of experience letting cats breed. Sherry >>Maybe you'd like to share some of your experiences... aint' got any? >>Shut up then. Kthxbye. <snip an old post> > I see you have *lots* of experience letting cats breed. > > Sherry I guess so; I've actually managed to answer Holly's post as best I could a bit further downstream in this thread with some advice; I also mentioned in that post that I had had experience with cats and litters so this last post of yours was superflous, but I appreciate the vote of confidence. pat On an update note, both "boys" have moved in down the road now.... sadly they seem to have displaced the original cat who's been missing for a while now <sigh> stupid cats. > >Do you have anything useful to contribute to the original questions asked > >by [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > see > how the cat behaves *under supervised conditions". D'oh. Plonk >>Since we don't know the complete circumstances of the incident, I feel >>that we should let Holly do whatever she can to remedy her situation. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Sherry Being a vet assistant, I know exactly how many cats/kittens, dogs/puppies are born from these situations. I also know that things like this do happen and it is not up to us to judge anyone. > They will however help you to try to find > >good responsible homes for the kittens, with the agreement that > whomever >"adopts" them brings them in to be spayed or neutered. > > Total, utter, and complete bullshit. It takes more than an "agreement", > honey. Vets generally won't spay / neuter a kitten under 5-6 months in the UK, and it's therefore rare to acquire a "fixed" animal. And we don't have a massive unwanted kitten problem here either. Amanda <snip> > Carelessness and excuses are the reasons we are killing healthy kittens by > the > thousands in this country every day. > > Sherry Who is killing thousands of kittens every day, and why? Justin >In Febuary of this year I rescued a Siamese (she is not purebreed but the vet >says she is really, really close)When I got Pheniox she was 4 months old and [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >broken her of that, do you think this will start again. This will be my >first litter of grand"kittens", I can use any pointers. I don't mean to sound harsh, but please make sure those kittens are spayed/neutered before you release them. It was your responsibility to *make sure* your cat did not reproduce, and you are now responsible for ensuring that that it *stops* with the kittens. If not, you could be singularly responsible for dozens, maybe even hundreds of future offspring. You should have immediately had her spayed after she returned. Why didn't you? Sherry >>In Febuary of this year I rescued a Siamese (she is not purebreed but the vet >>says she is really, really close)When I got Pheniox she was 4 months old and [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Sherry Sherry, I believe in Holly's post, that she stated that she had an appointment with the vet to have her cat spayed, and then before the appointment could be kept, the cat got out on her and managed to become pregnant. In my humble opinion, she was taking responsibility for getting her cat spayed. Unfortunately she couldn't predict that her cat would get out and disappear for a few days. These things do happen however unfortunate they may be. At least she is going to try to find good responsible homes for the kittens. At that point, it is up to the new owners/slaves, to make sure that they spay or neuter their cats. I don't understand how people can be so judgemental about an obvious and unfortunate turn of events. What would you have Holly do, abort the kittens by allowing the vet to spay Pheonix? I think that she is showing that she is being a responsible pet owner despite the unfortunate circumstances. >>>In Febuary of this year I rescued a Siamese (she is not purebreed but the >vet [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] >appointment could be kept, the cat got out on her and managed to become >pregnant. The cat was rescued eleven months ago. She is now well over a year old. She should have been spayed *months ago* in the first place. It does NOT take eleven months to rehabilitate an emaciated cat sufficiently for spaying. Unfortunately she couldn't predict that her cat >would get out and disappear for a few days. No, but she should have *immediately* made another appointment to have her spayed as soon as she got her back. These things do happen >however unfortunate they may be. Yes. They happen all the time. And we are killing healthy kittens in our shelters by the thousands because of it. At least she is going to try to find >good responsible homes for the kittens. At that point, it is up to the >new owners/slaves, to make sure that they spay or neuter their cats. No it isn't. It is Holly's responsibility. She is responsible for the birth of the litter in the first place, and if she *doesn't* ensure they're spayed/neutered, she could be responsible for the birth of hundreds more kittens. >I don't understand how people can be so judgemental about an obvious and >unfortunate turn of events. What would you have Holly do, abort the >kittens by allowing the vet to spay Pheonix? What would you suggest shelters do with the surplus of kittens we have already, with not enough homes? And, if the cat returned home on Dec. 6, and today is Dec. 22, that would make the cat sixteen-days-pregnant. How does she know the cat's pregnant? Has it seen a vet? If that's the case, I find it extremely ironic she couldn't manage to get the cat in for spaying. I think that she is showing >that she is being a responsible pet owner despite the unfortunate >circumstances. And how is that? By waiting eleven months to spay a cat? Letting the cat escape, then blowing off making another appointment immediately? Giving away whole kittens? Exactly how does that constitute "responsible pet ownership" in your book? Sherry >>>>In Febuary of this year I rescued a Siamese (she is not purebreed but >>>>the [quoted text clipped - 100 lines] > > Sherry Sherry, you do sound hash. I think you are on of the very few on this group that thinks Holly has acted unresponsible. When Holly got Pheniox she was 4 months old and very mal nurioshed etc, so the vet advised against spaying her until she was back on her feet, right? Ok, she may have been back on her feet in 2-3 months time, but how do you know that it didn't take longer? And Sasha IS an indoor cat, and I didnt understand how my siamese got out either before I found out that he had learned to open doors. It isn't always easy to get an new apointment at the vet at once. Shouldnt we try to help Holly with her questions instead, and let the accusations be saved to somone that really deserves it? Best regards Gunnar S. Paulsen well i join a new forum and get badhed I can say that is a first. Thanks alot. As far as pheniox is concerned, when i rescued this cat she was a very sick little girl, her old owners son beat on her as a way to take out his anger. She was 4 months old and only weight 1.9 lbs. it was not untill november when she went for her check up that the vet felt it was okay to have her fixed. so i made an appointment. I was at work when Pheniox got out and my husband and I drove a 20 block radius in either direction looking for her. As far as the new kittens go they will be fixed before they ever leave my home Sherry. I came here thinking someone would answer my questions for me but all I get is judged. I am really sorry that I intruded on yalls group Have a wonderful holiday! Sorry spelled "BASHED" wrong I am sorry I have one more thing to add, Pheniox was taken to the vet the very same day that she returned home as a matter of fact it was on Sunday night when she returned and my vet came into the office to see her right away. Pheniox hadd a cut on her paw that need to be looked at, My vet does surgery only on thursday and friday, I made appointment to have her fixed thqat following Friday, but when the vet called me at work and sai Phniox was pregnant I refused to have her fixed. So now that I wont murder an inoccent life I am unresponsible. If I am so unresponsible then why is SASHA who is only 4 months old now been spayed for almost 8 weeks. If anyone is willing to answer my please email me at htunnell[AT]mwcarchitects[DOT]com Holly I would like to appolizie to you for my comment, I was having a bad day and should not have taken it out on you. I am sorry. This is a great forum I hope that you will change your mind and stay. How is Pheniox doing with her pregnancy? I think that you should just let Sasha be, Pheniox will let her know when and if it is okay to check out the grand"kitties" as you call them. My vet does >surgery only on thursday and friday, I made appointment to have her fixed >thqat following Friday, but when the vet called me at work and sai Phniox was >pregnant I refused to have her fixed. How did your vet detect pregnancy at 6 days after mating? Sherry > well i join a new forum and get badhed I can say that is a first. Thanks alot. As far as pheniox is concerned, when i rescued this cat she was a very sick little girl, her old owners son beat on her as a way to take out his anger. She was 4 months old and only weight 1.9 lbs. it was not untill november when she went for her check up that the vet felt it was okay to have her fixed. so i made an appointment. I was at work when Pheniox got out and my husband and I drove a 20 block radius in either direction looking for her. As far as the new kittens go they will be fixed before they ever leave my home Sherry. I came here thinking someone would answer my questions for me but all I get is judged. I am really sorry that I intruded on yalls group > Have a wonderful holiday! Holly, Please don't leave the group because of one or two people. It by no means reflects how the rest of us feel. I really think that you could benefit from this group, and I am sure that once the kittens are born that you will have some funny stories to tell about them. Please stay and enjoy this group of fellow cat lovers. Merry Christmas to you and yours, CAT. Thank you, I did not intentionally let her out, but i feel like that is what is thought. I hope you have a great Holiday. > Thank you, I did not intentionally let her out, but i feel like that is what is thought. I hope you have a great Holiday. Since you actually said you didn't let her out intentionally, I don't see where anybody (with the odd slightly insane exception or two) would think otherwise. > > well i join a new forum and get badhed I can say that is a first. Thanks alot. As far as pheniox is concerned, when i rescued this cat she was a very sick little girl, her old owners son beat on her as a way to take out his anger. She was 4 months old and only weight 1.9 lbs. it was not untill november when she went for her check up that the vet felt it was okay to have her fixed. so i made an appointment. I was at work when Pheniox got out and my husband and I drove a 20 block radius in either direction looking for her. As far as the new kittens go they will be fixed before they ever leave my home Sherry. I came here thinking someone would answer my questions for me but all I get is judged. I am really sorry that I intruded on yalls group > > Have a wonderful holiday! > > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that you will have some funny stories to tell about them. > Please stay and enjoy this group of fellow cat lovers. Seconded, if you stick around you will quickly see there are a few members here who go ballistic at the thought of anyone's cats having kittens and instead of just politely making a point once they repeat it ad-nauseum throughout the thread and any related thread contributed to by the person they have an issue with. These are the sort of people you just roll your eyes at and are thankful are not your neighbour. SignatureI.P.Freely I.P. Freely, do you have any suggestions as to my original post? I dont want them to hurt each other. > I.P. Freely, do you have any suggestions as to my original post? I dont want them to hurt each other. I would let them sort it out. You will probably find Pheniox will be extremely protective and may not even allow you near the kits when they are born never mind another cat. If she growls at you, don't push it - let her have her space. Sasha will also quickly get the message. It should also answer your quesry about Sasha tring to nurse - she probably won't be allowed! I'd get Sasha loads of toys to play with & keep her occupied and away from the nest. SignatureI.P.Freely thanks I. P. Freely I appreciate the answer, have a happy holiday. >>I.P. Freely, do you have any suggestions as to my original post? I dont > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I'd get Sasha loads of toys to play with & keep her occupied and away from > the nest. I agree with IPFreely. Sasha will either be welcomed by Pheonix, or she will be "told" to back off. Either way, do not worry about it Holly, they have been sorting out these kinds of things in the wild for years. > well i join a new forum and get badhed I can say that is a first. Is English your second language? Yes it is I am sorry I dont spell all the words correctly > Yes it is I am sorry I dont spell all the words correctly Who are you replying to? > > Yes it is I am sorry I dont spell all the words correctly > Who are you replying to? Obviously not to anyone with any brain! So you! What is the matter with you Mary? Did you get up on the wrong side of the bed? What kind of questioning is this?"Is English your second language?" WHO CARES!!!!!! Does it really matter! Geez, sorry not everybody in this world is born in USA! "who are you replying to" You are such a waste of time! Help with the problem if you know how,and if you don't then shuddup! I hate bl##dy trolls! > > > Yes it is I am sorry I dont spell all the words correctly > > > Who are you replying to? > > Obviously not to anyone with any brain! So you! Well, if the price I must pay for teaching you to include a snippet of the post to which you are replying is your verbal abuse (sob!) then so be it. If I have saved Usenetizens an ounce of annoyance, it is worth it. > What is the matter with you Mary? Did you get up on the wrong side of the > bed? What kind of questioning is this?"Is English your second language?" WHO [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > I hate bl##dy trolls! Do you? I hate idiots like you who call anyone whose post they do not like a troll. And as if that does not make you attractive enough, you may also count yourself among the ranks of the aggressively stupid. A clue: the best defense is not always a good offense. HTH. :) Holly, I think that you should be commended on taking her in and making sure she got the vet attention that she needed. Poor little girl what happened to her? Is she well now? I think that people who abuse animals should be jailed but it does not seem to be a big issue for people now days just the fact that all animals should be spayed or neutered. >Sherry, you do sound hash. I realize that. It is not on a personal level towards Holly. I have worked in animal rescue for years, and sit on the Board of Directors for our local Humane Society. I have also been the person who goes to the municipal shelter to rescue as many adoptable cats as we can from euthanasia, and decides who lives and who dies. And I have heard *hundreds* of times..."We were going to get her spayed, BUT...." Insert excuse. I'm not in the business of making posters feel good about producing more kittens. If that is offensive, I apologize. My concern is not whether the kittens are socially accepted by her existing cat. (Who, by the way, I hope is being spayed/neutered soon). It's whether she will do the right thing and ensure those kittens do not reproduce themselves. Sherry I think you are on of the very few on this group >that thinks Holly has acted unresponsible. When Holly got Pheniox she was 4 >months old and very mal nurioshed etc, so the vet advised against spaying [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Best regards >Gunnar S. Paulsen Sherry, If you read my post closley you will see that the kitten is fixed. I tryied to have pheniox fixed but unfortunate things happen and I am not killing a kitten, even if it is un born. It may be that when they are born we will keep them all. who knows. I am a great animal lover and this is the first animal I have had that was not fixed immediatly. My husband and I just recently payed to have our neighbors tom fixed because he always wants to come over and visit, and I wanted to keep a pregnancy from happening. My concern is not that they be socially accepted by the other cat either, my concern is sashas saftey when pheniox delivers her kittens, I dont want pheniox to hurt her just because she is noisy. I reaaly hope that no one judges you the way you judge others. i would like to post a pic of my kitties how do i do that? I have no idea, he said she was pregnant, and she is it has been over 3 weeks now and she is showing (eats like a horse). I told him when I droped her off if he could check her to see if she was pregnant and he did, I did not ask how, i did not ask. All I know is that Pheniox and Sasha are the closest things I will ever have to children and I would never do anything to deliberatly hurt either of them. I would but myself in harms way before either of them. >I have no idea, he said she was pregnant, and she is it has been over 3 weeks >now and she is showing (eats like a horse). I told him when I droped her off >if he could check her to see if she was pregnant and he did, I did not ask >how, i did not ask. >either of them. There is no test to verify a 6-day pregnancy in a cat. Pregnancy at 1 week can not be detected by palpation, by ultrasound, or by radiograph. The embryos do not even attach until after 12 days. Enjoy your litter. Sherry Sherry I feel as if you are calling me a lyer. All I know is what vet told me. I am truley sorry I ever posted here >Sherry I feel as if you are calling me a lyer. All I know is what vet told >me. I am truley sorry I ever posted here No, I am not calling you a liar. But the fact is, there's no way your vet could have diagnosed pregnancy in your cat after a week. That's just a fact. Your vet either lied to you, or your cat was bred earlier than you think it was. Sherry well if the vet did lie i am glad he did because i would not be able to live with myself if i thought for a minute that he had fixed her and I killed the kittens. All I know is she left on December 3rd cme back on dcember 5th vet said on Dec 17th that she was pregnant. The best way to send a picture would be uploading it to any free Web site (for example http://00server.com/) or photo gallery and sending here the image URL. >i would like to post a pic of my kitties how do i do that? thank you Mike > >Sherry, you do sound hash. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > reproduce themselves. > Sherry I do think I will killfile you. I'm so tired of seeing you bash people over and over and over and over again. You need to get over yourself. You are not the internet god of spaying and neutering. You have probably made many a person leave this newsgroup. Heck, I know a couple personally that have left cause of you. So you have done nothing but make people leave, and then they don't ever hear any more words of advice. Oh, and I do let my cats breed. I live on a farm and need lots of cats to kill all the mice that come with having grain bins full of corn and soy beans in my backyard. And my vet won't spay a pregnant cat either and will test to make sure. He states there is a much higher chance of bleeding and death when you spay a pregnant cat > > >Sherry, you do sound hash. > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > I do think I will killfile you. Just do it then, asswipe, instead of announcing it. Nobody give's a rat's a.s whether your read them or not. And for God's sake put me in there too. What is the general IQ in this group, 30? This is USENET not nursery school. Now get over YOURself you simpering, slobbering idiot. >> > >Sherry, you do sound hash. >> > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > This is USENET not nursery school. Now get over YOURself > you simpering, slobbering idiot. Do you feel better about yourself now after posting this? Justin >> >Sherry, you do sound hash. >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > >I do think I will killfile you. <snip> >So you have done nothing but make people leave, and then they don't ever >hear any more words of advice. >Oh, and I do let my cats breed. WTF???? You talk about a. killfiling Sherry b. people coming here for advice c. letting your cats breed all in the same paragraph. You been hittin' the booze Brand? -bonbon >I live on a farm and need lots of cats to >kill all the mice that come with having grain bins full of corn and soy >beans in my backyard. >And my vet won't spay a pregnant cat either and will test to make sure. He >states there is a much higher chance of bleeding and death when you spay a >pregnant cat > do think I will killfile you. >I'm so tired of seeing you bash people over and over and over and over >again. You are welcome to killfile me. You don't have to announce it; I certainly won't argue with you. What I have done is not bash anyone. I have expressed my opinion that, in this country, the overpopulation problem is critical. I do not euthanize cats. The shelter I am affiliated does not euthanize cats. We rescue cats from the municipal pound, who DO euthanize, and take in strays and relinqushed animals. It has been proven over the years, that euthanasia is NOT effective population control. The only way to stop it is for people to stop breeding cats. Period. If anyone on this newsgroup has LEFT because of the opinions I expressed, they really have no business on a cat-lovers newsgroup anyway. I fail to see the relevance of the bit you threw in about your vet's abortion policies. I haven't expressed an opinion one way or another regarding abortion. I suspect you're trolling for an argument. Sherry Sherry >> do think I will killfile you. >>I'm so tired of seeing you bash people over and over and over and over [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Sherry Sherry, Sorry about previous posts, I did not understand the problem, or your position on things. You should make posts like this to educate people instead of yelling at them. Justin >Sherry, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Justin No apology necessary, Justin. I probably did not articulate well. In reference to the questions you had; I did not ignore them, I actually was looking for a website that would explain things better than I can, since sometimes I *don't* articulate well, especially on a subject I am so passionate about, but here goes. You asked about why cats are euthanized as opposed to turning them loose on their own. Feral (never tamed) cats can survive on thier own, usually. However, the majority of pet cats dumped by their owners just don't. They eventually suffer greatly and die a slow, lingering death from starvation, the elements, bad people, disease, or are hit by cars. If a cat isn't taught by its mother as a kitten to hunt, it doesn't have the skills to catch its own food. Living rural between two lake roads, we are in a prime animal dumping-area. Some are too far gone to save. Most I end up with are in bad shape. Here's an example of just two I've had recently: http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/kitten.jpg Here he is after I had him a few months; http://members.aol.com/gladyss5/jack2.jpg And another... http://members.aol.com/jjrich0523/calico.jpg After: http://members.aol.com/jjrich0523/bikkie.jpg It took several hundred dollars in vet bills, and a great deal of time and nutrition to save those cats. Both were someone's pet cats deliberately dumped. Both were severely malnourished; the calico was badly dehydrated and the tabby almost lost his left eye. Long story, but that's basically why it's just not feasible to turn cats out to survive on thier own. I hate euthanasia as bad as anyone, but it is a kinder death than these two would have experienced. Sherry > You asked about why cats are euthanized as opposed to turning them loose on > their own. Feral (never tamed) cats can survive on thier own, usually. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Sherry You are a wonderful person for saving these two kitties. Both are just beautiful now and appear to be happy and confident. Did you keep them or rehome them? >You are a wonderful person for saving these two kitties. Both are just >beautiful now and appear to be happy and confident. Did you keep them >or rehome them? We kept those two. We still have Biskit, but Jacky went into respiratory failurea nd died suddenly in July. An autopsy showed his lungs full of fluid and infection, and they said it was likely FIP. So, even though he looked and acted healthy, he really never was. He was a great cat though, and I am glad we had him for the short time we did. Sherry > >You are a wonderful person for saving these two kitties. Both are just > >beautiful now and appear to be happy and confident. Did you keep them [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > acted healthy, he really never was. He was a great cat though, and I am glad we > had him for the short time we did. Oh my God, Jackie was so beautiful. That would have killed me. I am a sucker for pale gray tabbies. >Oh my God, Jackie was so beautiful. That would have killed me. I am >a sucker for pale gray tabbies. It was awful. One minute he was fine and the next he was panting for air. In retrospect, I always thought I should have seen it coming, but I swear the only indication I had that cat was ill was that his breath smelled bad and he was less active. I thought he maybe had dental problems and intended to take him in for a dental. And I thought he was just growing up, and that's why he was less active. It was also a reminder why I love my DH like I do. I can't think of another man who would drive 55 miles into the city at 1 a.m. to take a dead cat for necropsy. We were just so stunned we wanted to make sure he hadn't gotten into some kind of poison somehow. When we got back, he buried him for me in the back yard next to Cherokee. Sherry >> You are welcome to killfile me. You don't have to announce it; I >> certainly [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >> >> Sherry It is posts like that one that actually get your point across much better than when you start ranting about it. The above post makes me see your point of view much more than some you have posted. What you call expressing your opinion, many call bashing. A difference of opinion, and both can be correct. I also put in the point about my vets abortion policy for the original poster and her pregnant cat. Just wanted her to know that some vets won't spay a pregnant cat. It came out really badly. Between being way to tireddue to all the family dinners and such over the weekend. and not the most well spoken person around, my post probably didn't make much sence. I'm not trying to troll for an argument. I'm a lurker who came out of lurkdom, and probably should have just stayed in lurkdom. So I'm going back there now. > Sherry, you do sound hash. I think you are on of the very few on this group > that thinks Holly has acted unresponsible. Along with me. When Holly got Pheniox she was 4 > months old and very mal nurioshed etc, so the vet advised against spaying > her until she [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > found out that he had learned to open doors. It isn't always easy to get an > new apointment at the vet at once. This is all just a mess of rationalizations for an irresponsible act. She should have had the cat spayed long ago and if she didn't, make damned sure the cat stayed in the house. It is just not that hard to do either of these things, or both for that matter. > Shouldnt we try to help Holly with her questions instead, and let the > accusations be saved to somone that really deserves it? I think we should do exactly what we each feel and think we should do. sherry, mary, please give it a rest. should have, would have, could have but didnt. waah. shes learning the errors of her ways. why dont you 2 quit being retarded imbeciles and contribute something useful instead of childish name calling and asinine childish acts? Holly, have fun with the new kittens! lord knows id foster a litter if i had the space, but my 2 behemoths and Vlad take up my apt :) -agent smith SignatureBe sure to check out http://home.satx.rr.com/satxcichlids for information on my fishies! also, sign up for a *FREE* ipod here: http://www.freeiPods.com/default.aspx?referer=9570045 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daewootech/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daewoolanos/ http://www.geocities.com/daewoolanoshatchback/ contact info: agentsmith@UNDIES.the-c0re.tk agentsmith2011@UNDIES.punkass.com remove UNDIES to reply :D >sherry, mary, please give it a rest. should have, would have, could have but >didnt. waah. shes learning the errors of her ways. why dont you 2 quit being >retarded imbeciles and contribute something useful instead of childish name >calling and asinine childish acts? Usenet is not for the thin-skinned and users of KBcat should know that. Anything thrown out is subject to opinion and debate. Killfiles are a wonderful tool for people who only want "feely-good" replies. Sherry > sherry, mary, please give it a rest. should have, would have, could have but > didnt. waah. shes learning the errors of her ways. why dont you 2 quit being [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -agent smith You mushmouthed, apologist piece of sh.t. "Have fun with the new kittens," indeed. There is a special place in hell for you. nice post from roadrunner. i think i know a few people that work there still. i wonder if that comment could be considered OT... *giggles* -agent smith SignatureBe sure to check out http://home.satx.rr.com/satxcichlids for information on my fishies! also, sign up for a *FREE* ipod here: http://www.freeiPods.com/default.aspx?referer=9570045 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daewootech/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/daewoolanos/ http://www.geocities.com/daewoolanoshatchback/ contact info: agentsmith@UNDIES.the-c0re.tk agentsmith2011@UNDIES.punkass.com remove UNDIES to reply :D Mary, Pheniox has not been healthy enough to fix. She was going to vet every month because she was not well. She waqs in this condition because of what someone else did to her. I could have found any old vet to fix her before now but she was sick and I wasn't going to take the chance of her dying. And I refuse to kill the kittens.I am sorry if you feel i was making excuses > Mary, > Pheniox has not been healthy enough to fix. She was going to vet every month because she was not well. She waqs in this condition because of what someone else did to her. I could have found any old vet to fix her before now but she was sick and I wasn't going to take the chance of her dying. And I refuse to kill the kittens.I am sorry if you feel i was making excuses I read your original post. She has not been "unwell" for as long as you have taken NOT to spay her. Your fuckup was a major one that is going to result in scores if not hundreds of cats suffering and/or dying. Take responsibility for it. Now that the damage is done, what' are you going to do--not TRY to do, wah wah wah--to make sure that the kittens that you allowed to come into a world already stuffed full of unwanted, needy cats--do not breed and make even more cats to suffer and die? I really don't care what your intentions were. I KNOW it doesn't take that much to keep a cat indoors, and I know that cat was well enough to spay for months. Those of you who go gaga over the widdle baby kittens need to see Phil's trashcans of dead kittens. Those of you rank, wrongheaded apologists for this miserably ineffectual human being who attack those who are simply telling the truth can f.ck off. Usenet is a global, unmoderated forum where everyone gets to have their say. I thought Sherry was way too gentle with Holly. > Those of you rank, wrongheaded apologists for this miserably ineffectual > human being who attack those who are simply telling the truth can f.ck [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I > thought Sherry was way too gentle with Holly. Sheesh, chill out Mary, have a joint or a drink or whatever it is that relaxes you. A big mug of egg nog maybe. Put some Christmas carols on, remember it's the season of *good*will. > > Those of you rank, wrongheaded apologists for this miserably ineffectual > > human being who attack those who are simply telling the truth can f.ck [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > relaxes you. A big mug of egg nog maybe. Put some Christmas carols on, > remember it's the season of *good*will. I try, but how can I with normally sane people like you blasting Sherry for simply speaking the truth because her heart aches for those cats? That just sucks. Bigtime. And what sucks still sucks at Christmas. > I try, but how can I with normally sane people like you blasting > Sherry for simply speaking the truth because her heart aches > for those cats? That just sucks. Bigtime. And what sucks still > sucks at Christmas. Mary, there is no harm in saying what one thinks. There can, however, be harm in *how* one says it. And there can also be significant harm in aggressively jumping on people asking for help, making them think you're such a total cow they'll never listen to a word you say again. That doesn't actually get your message across at all, it ensures, rather than those who might otherwise listen to it don't. That's what Sherry did. sh.t does happen, sometime, Mary. Cats that weren't meant to get pregnant do. Yeah, so their owner screwed up. Well, you know what, we all screw up sometimes. Sherry just has, big time. But sneering at people and belittling them for doing so doesn't actually help. Especially when those owners are now being responsible and trying to do the right thing. The sensible course is to *help* them do the right thing, and encourage them to listen to what you have to say - not beat them around the ears and make them avoid you. The original poster sounds like a responsible person who had taken in a cat that needed help, then things went awry. She's now trying to do the right thing by the cat and the kittens and is seeking advice on how to do so. Guess, if that's the reaction she gets, she might not be as willing to seek advice in the future, huh? And how helpful is that? Have a merry Christmas, Mary. >Your fuckup was a major one that is going to result in scores if not hundreds >of cats suffering and/or dying. Take responsibility for it....< ... and so on, and so forth. Man, you need to get laid. Lighten up. >>Your fuckup was a major one that is going to result in scores if not >>hundreds >>of cats suffering and/or dying. Take responsibility for it....< > > ... and so on, and so forth. Man, you need to get laid. Lighten up. Oh, I love it. Short, direct and to the point. Here, Here! :-) > Sherry, I believe in Holly's post, that she stated that she had an > appointment with the vet to have her cat spayed, and then before the > appointment could be kept, the cat got out on her and managed to become > pregnant. In my humble opinion, she was taking responsibility for > getting her cat spayed. Unfortunately she couldn't predict that her cat > would get out and disappear for a few days. Nonsense. Keeping a cat inside is just not that hard. this was the first time she got out and I have since found out my rental agent let her out. I did not post here to feel good about myself sherry. I posted to ask a question. I do not care that she is pregnant and I do not care if I have to keep all the kittens. I just wanted a little advise about what to do know not to get bashed over what should have been done. THis will be my last post and visit to this board. I hope yall rest well at night knowing you do everything so perfect. > this was the first time she got out and I have since found out my rental > agent let her out. I did not post here to feel good about myself sherry. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > THis will be my last post and visit to this board. I hope yall rest well > at night knowing you do everything so perfect. Holly, don't take any notice of her - if her attitude annoys you (as it does me) just killfile her so you don't have to read her and stay to enjoy what else you can about the group. > > this was the first time she got out and I have since found out my rental > > agent let her out. I did not post here to feel good about myself sherry. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > me) just killfile her so you don't have to read her and stay to enjoy what > else you can about the group. Ashley, people who feel the need to announce it when they killfile look like flaming idiots. I like you, so I just thought I'd point that out. Also, Sherry is entitled to her opinion, as I am to mine, as everyone else is to theirs. Here's another one for you: your heartfelt sympathy for Holly is misguided. Your sympathy should be with the animals that will suffer because of her abusive negligence. You DON'T slap LET *slap* them BREED. *slap* You can do it. You have the thumbs and the forebrain. So stop apologizing for irresponsible halfwits. And killfile THIS. >You > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >And killfile THIS. Amen. Because I refuse to namby-pampy r careless people who come on this group with half-baked excuses why they didn't prevent litters, I'm the one getting flamed. I"ve spent a great deal of *my* time, *my* money taking responsibility for the products of those careless people. We have the means to stop overpopulation. The people on this newsgroup are a *prime* example why we haven't. Here's something for you *all* to chew on for a while: a shelter sign which said "We Will No Long Be Responsible For Killing Your Mistakes." Sherry >>You >> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > Sherry And a Merry Christmas to you too Sherry. >>>You >>> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >> Sherry >And a Merry Christmas to you too Sherry. For God's sakes, learn to attribute. You've attributed Mary's post to me. Although I wholeheartedly agree, I did not author it. Sherry > >You >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > > Sherry I will ask again... Why do they kill them? Or better yet, what gives them the right to slaughter cats? Can't cats survive in the wild on their own? Raccoons and chipmunks and all the other wild animal get too, why not cats? Overpopulation? Who decides that? You? I think nature has a way of sorting all of that out without your help Justin >I will ask again... Why do they kill them? Or better yet, what gives them >the right to slaughter cats? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Justin I'd suggest you do some research. Here's a page to get you started: http://www.henricohumane.org/PetPop.htm Here are additional statistics from the Humane Society of the United States; Number of cats and dogs entering shelters each year: 6-8 million (HSUS estimate) Number of cats and dogs euthanized by shelters each year: 3-4 million (HSUS estimate) Number of cats and dogs adopted from shelters each year: 3-4 million (HSUS estimate) Number of cats and dogs reclaimed by owners from shelters each year: Between 600,000 and 750,000 -- 30% of dogs and 2-5% of cats entering shelters (HSUS estimate) Number of animal shelters in the United States: Between 4,000 and 6,000 (HSUS estimate) Average number of litters a fertile cat can produce in one year: 3 Average number of kittens in a feline litter: 4-6 In seven years, one female cat and her offspring can theoretically produce 420,000 cats. Sherry > >I will ask again... Why do they kill them? Or better yet, what gives them >>the right to slaughter cats? [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Sherry So, what are you afraid of? The cats taking over the planet or something? I am saying cats are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves, and do not need to be killed off for no good reason. Not having a human to "take care of them" does not qualify as a good reason. None of your links or facts proved me wrong, or even answered my questions. Justin >So, what are you afraid of? The cats taking over the planet or something? > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Justin Do some independent research about what happens to abandoned cats. Then get back to me and we'll debate. Sherry > >So, what are you afraid of? The cats taking over the planet or something? >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Sherry I know what happens to abandoned cats, they are killed. Why are they killed is the question. Why don't they get an equal shot in nature like the rest of the animals? I have a feeling its just the "accepted" practice, and you are just following along not really knowing why. Justin . > I know what happens to abandoned cats, they are killed. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I have a feeling its just the "accepted" practice, and you are > just following along not really knowing why. Because cats and dogs are not considered wildlife. They are domestic animals regardless of how feral some of them act. To some they are a nuisance, unneutered toms can smell up the place, and some people are actually afraid of cats and would kill them not so humanely if they aren't trapped and humanely killed at shelters because there simply aren't enough homes for them all. SignatureCheryl >some people are actually afraid of cats and would kill them not so humanely if they aren't trapped and humanely killed at shelters < Hmm... So, to prevent potential psychopaths who might illegally kill a few unwanted cats, the shelters are beating these psychopaths to the bunch by killing these cats en masse. Thanks for explaining! >>some people are actually afraid of cats and would kill them not so >>humanely if [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > unwanted cats, the shelters are beating these psychopaths to the bunch by > killing these cats en masse. Thanks for explaining! Gotta love the "logic" Justin >> I know what happens to abandoned cats, they are killed. >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > aren't trapped and humanely killed at shelters because there simply > aren't enough homes for them all. Thank you for the explanation. Do you agree with this thinking? Justin > >> I know what happens to abandoned cats, they are killed. > >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Justin My God but you are stupid. Are you actually allowed to operate a car? >> >> I know what happens to abandoned cats, they are killed. >> >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > My God but you are stupid. Are you actually allowed to operate > a car? Wow, insults, aren't we mature. What does me driving a car have to do with cats being murdered? When you have something to contribute to help me understand this, please feel free to do so. Justin > Wow, insults, aren't we mature. What does me driving a car have to do with > cats being murdered? In jest Justin, they probably think you might run over one. But hopefully an un-fixed, homeless, hungry and battered feline thereby easing their burden. ;-) Seems to me they are angry and antagonistic while using this issue as a channel to vent on those they see as most susceptible. Stone >> Wow, insults, aren't we mature. What does me driving a car have to do >> with cats being murdered? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Stone I suppose you are correct. If it makes them that angry though, why do it? Why take in more cats then they have homes/room for? Why not make the people that screw up and let them get pregnant take responsibly? Make them try to find homes, and if they can't make them pull the trigger or whatever they do. There has to be a better system is all I am saying. Nobody should have to kill off healthy cats. Justin >>>Wow, insults, aren't we mature. What does me driving a car have to do >>>with cats being murdered? [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Justin Justin, The problem with letting cats fend for themselves is this. If you take one female cat, and one male cat, and let them breed, they will have kittens. (I know, that's not rocket science.) However, now we have let's say 8 cats. The female cats of the litter will come into heat, so "dad" and "brothers" decide that they should breed with them. (That's not including "sons" mating with "mom"). Not only do you have more kittens to worry about, but you also have genetical problems starting to happen. So, now, more females and males are born, and now we have aunts, uncles, sisters, brothers, and cousins breeding with each other. Because their blood lines are so close to the original blood lines, the possibilities for abnormal kittens is at an even higher occurance. This not only produces unhealthy kittens, but usually dead kittens. Do you really want to see a bunch of dead kittens in your back yard, or under your back deck, or under your garden shed? The smell alone would be appalling. I am sure that you wouldn't think about mating with your sister(s), aunt(s), female cousins, etc. because you know that the possibility of having "mentally challenged" children would be at a higher risk. Just the thought of that is disgusting. The same goes for cats, dogs, and so on. I hope that this helps you to understand the possible problems with letting cats go wild and to fend for themselves. >>>>Wow, insults, aren't we mature. What does me driving a car have to do >>>>with cats being murdered? [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > hope that this helps you to understand the possible problems with letting > cats go wild and to fend for themselves. Thanks for another explanation. This site really helped me to understand as well http://www.feralcat.com/kelson.html Justin Good explanation, I was going to go with the mathematical aspects, but you cited a much better scenario. Thanks Stone >>>>Wow, insults, aren't we mature. What does me driving a car have to do >>>>with cats being murdered? [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > hope that this helps you to understand the possible problems with letting > cats go wild and to fend for themselves. > Thank you for the explanation. Do you agree with this thinking? Certainly in some environments - such as here in New Zealand - it is the only sensible way to think. If feral cats were left unchecked they would destroy almost all our native wildlife, which is almost entirely bird, lizard and insect, and much of which is ground based. To leave them to fend for themselves would be an environmental disaster. Sad, but true. >> Thank you for the explanation. Do you agree with this thinking? > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lizard and insect, and much of which is ground based. To leave them to > fend for themselves would be an environmental disaster. Sad, but true. Interesting explanation. Don't birds, lizards and insects breed? At lest you admit they CAN survive on their own. Justin >>> Thank you for the explanation. Do you agree with this thinking? >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] |
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