Cat Forum / General Topics / January 2004
Outdoor vs Indoor Cats - Again
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GovtLawyer - 04 Jan 2004 16:03 GMT I've followed this debate in many threads across several groups, and there is one point I have not seen raised.
30 years ago I was coming home from my night job at 4 AM and while walking in the street (NYC) a dozen blocks from my home, I came across a really friendly orange tabby. He kept coming up to me and I would walk away, and he would come back. He was most friendly, obviously people oriented, and in my opinion he was a housecat who for some reason had been displaced from his house. I took him home and named him ECO, or ECHO, Eco, short for economics, because I wasn't sure I could afford to keep him; and, ECHO, because he kept coming back.
Once at my home, Eco seemed restless and he often tried to go out the window to the fireescape. Once, he jumped across an open window to the windowsill across an open airshaft. He was stuck there on the ledge and I had to go to the building next door to bring him in. A couple of weeks later, on Thanksgiving, 1974, my younger brother brought me a kitten, which I named Turkey (after all it was Thanksgiving). Turkey and Eco lived together for one week before Eco managed to squeeze through a small opening in the fire escape window, and he disappeared.
Why am I telling you this? Well, I think Echo was someone's cat from a half mile away, and I, out of good nature, took him to my home. What was Eco's original owner thinking when he never returned as he usually did? Why did I take him if that is what I thought? Well, it is because I didn't know. Maybe Eco was lost, and needed someone to care for him, he certainly latched on to me. What happened to him? He certainly wasn't familiar with the new neighborhood he found himself in.
One of the main reasons I would never let my cat (MY PET, MY COMPANION) out, is because one day he may not return And, it might not be because he or she was a victim of a tragedy; perhaps someone like me took him for his own. I'd never know. I would be left with photos on handbills taped to lamppoles with a LOST CAT headline.
I think pet owners should understand the difference between wild, feral animals, and domesticated ones. Our pets need our protection more than they need to be allowed to roam around at will.
Just my two cents. If you want to see my most recent additions, follow this link to Mickey & Daisy.
http://hometown.aol.com/borninthebronx/index.html
DG511 - 04 Jan 2004 20:37 GMT I have tried to stay out of the indoor vs outdoor debate and still intend to, mostly. But when I got my cat, Priss, at the shelter 10 years ago, the previous owner left a long note with her. It said, among other things, that Priss, who was then 5, was an indoor-outdoor cat. It also described some of her many hunting activities.
Well, Priss has not even attempted to go outside once in the entire 10 years I've had her. She's had opportunities to go out into the fenced-in back yard when I've been gardening. She's had opportunities to go out the front door, although that would not have been with my sanction. And she has never shown any interest whatsoever in leaving the house. None, zero, zip, nada. She's a healthy, alert, active cat, too. So this is just her choice. My other cat slips out back occasionally, eats some grass, then goes back in. Elapsed time outside is usually 2 minutes or less (and yes, he has cat grass in the house).
My parents' cats have always been indoor-outdoor, and at some point the cats have gone mostly indoors, then entirely indoors.
So while this debate rages on into eternity, I will keep my voluntarily indoor cats indoors, where they apparently want to be. And I will scoff at the argument that being outside is something all cats desire. It is not.
Daria Timing is everything.
Rich - 05 Jan 2004 00:52 GMT I too usually stay out of the Indoor /v/ Outdoor thing with cats and WILL NOT get into it here other than to say our FIVE cats are strictly indoor. You couldn't push them through a door leading to the outside.
The main purpose of this post is to say that I enjoyed reading the two previous. Good points are/were made and hopefully to open the eyes of those letting their cats go free on their own.
Rich --
Alan Sandoval - 05 Jan 2004 02:00 GMT > I too usually stay out of the Indoor /v/ Outdoor thing with cats and WILL > NOT get into it here other than to say our FIVE cats are strictly indoor. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Rich All good posts, and I'd like to point out that there is technology available now to trace lost animals, microchips. Obviously not available in 1974.
Peter Wilkins - 05 Jan 2004 06:47 GMT >I too usually stay out of the Indoor /v/ Outdoor thing with cats and WILL >NOT get into it here other than to say our FIVE cats are strictly indoor. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >previous. Good points are/were made and hopefully to open the eyes of those >letting their cats go free on their own. Hi Rich,
Just shows how cats, like people, have different personalities.
We bought our Burmilla kitten as an indoor cat, and have no intention of ever letting her roam free outdoors - she's too young to fend for herself and too valuable anyway to let loose on her own. However, she does love going outside. We take her out into the garden for an hour or so most days on a longish lead and harness and she loves chasing moths and lizards and just sitting in the bushes.
If we don't take her out by around 10am she goes to the front door and miaows, then comes back to our feet and rubs up against us, meowing, then back to the door again. She gets quite put out if we don't take her out - eg if it is raining - and will sit on the windowsill gazing at the garden, giving us soulful looks every so often and plaintive little meows. It's heartrending!
She is quite good on a harness and lead, and follows along like a dog when we take her for a walk. She is a bit like a dog also in that she loves "fetching" and will chase a ball of rolled up paper and bring it back to drop it at my feet. She never gets tired of it - we give up first!
 Signature Regards, Peter Wilkins
GovtLawyer - 05 Jan 2004 15:22 GMT >We bought our Burmilla kitten as an indoor cat, and have no intention >of ever letting her roam free outdoors - she's too young to fend for >herself and too valuable anyway to let loose on her own. When I posted my original message on a related board, a responder called me cruel and selfish.
>However, she >does love going outside. We take her out into the garden for an hour [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >at the garden, giving us soulful looks every so often and plaintive >little meows. It's heartrending! There's the cruel part. Obviously, your cat would prefer it if you simply opened the door and let her out. As you can tell, she pines to be outside.
I think you are a very responsible and loving pet owner; you've figured out how to give her some of what she wants, without jeopardizing her safety and well-being in the process. She will live a long and happy life with you. Congratulations.
Peter Wilkins - 05 Jan 2004 21:49 GMT >When I posted my original message on a related board, a responder called me >cruel and selfish. It's easy for people to point the finger and feel virtuous about it, not so easy to actually determine and do what's best. Ignore them.
>There's the cruel part. Obviously, your cat would prefer it if you simply >opened the door and let her out. As you can tell, she pines to be outside. > >I think you are a very responsible and loving pet owner; you've figured out how >to give her some of what she wants, without jeopardizing her safety and >well-being in the process. Thanks for the pat on the back. We try to keep her happy and be responsible as well.
> She will live a long and happy life with you. If she is anything like our last cat, Brilla will out-live us! Our last cat Abba (actually Zimbawa Aba Pacis - a Burmese) was a wonderful companion for 22 years, but then we reluctantly had to have him put down as he developed bad arthritis and kidney problems and was in constant pain. Some people would say we were cruel to do that, but I prefer to think we were kind.
We did let Abba out on his own once he was around 15 - he made friends with every-one in the street and they all loved him, and we figured he was too old and slow to do much (if any) damage to the local bird and animal population.
When I get old, I would love to be able to haul myself off to the Doctors for a painless put-down if I was chronically sick and in constant pain - but unfortunately it's still illegal for humans.
 Signature Regards, Peter Wilkins
Chris Street - 07 Jan 2004 18:29 GMT >I too usually stay out of the Indoor /v/ Outdoor thing with cats and WILL >NOT get into it here other than to say our FIVE cats are strictly indoor. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >previous. Good points are/were made and hopefully to open the eyes of those >letting their cats go free on their own. Sounds like you are getting into the debate though with that last inflammatory statement. I tend not to get into it since I get accusations of abuse from self righteous Americans.
>Rich
 Signature 79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle.
Cheryl - 08 Jan 2004 01:22 GMT 2004:
> I tend not to get into it since I get > accusations of abuse from self righteous Americans. LOL Smart man. No one can "win" in these debates. It isn't a purrfect world.
 Signature Cheryl
I shall call him Squishy and he shall be mine. And he shall be my Squishy. Come here Squishy. Ow. Bad Squishy. - Dori
Sherry - 08 Jan 2004 05:01 GMT >Sounds like you are getting into the debate though with that last >inflammatory statement. I tend not to get into it since I get >accusations of abuse from self righteous Americans. Hey Chris! I resemble that remark :-) It does get tiresome when others presume to know what's best for everybody else's cat (and presume to know the risk factors involved from half a world away). There's no black and white answer.
Sherry
Chris Street - 09 Jan 2004 13:24 GMT >>Sounds like you are getting into the debate though with that last >>inflammatory statement. I tend not to get into it since I get [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sherry Note that I didn't say "all Americans" It's just that those who do say this are exclusively american - which speaks more about how the US tends to be cat indoors, and the UK indoor/outdoor. Different standards, but I'm not saying who is right or wrong.
M.C. Mullen - 09 Jan 2004 17:29 GMT | Note that I didn't say "all Americans" It's just that those who do say this | are exclusively american - which speaks more about how the US tends to be | cat indoors, and the UK indoor/outdoor. Different standards, but I'm not | saying who is right or wrong. There *is* no right or wrong!
a) Cats generally love to be outdoors, it's their nature. b) Not every environment is safe enough for that. c) Not every neighbour is fond of cats in his garden. d) Cats *can* live indoors only, but they need enough attention or a companion.
So what?
Carola
Sherry - 09 Jan 2004 20:16 GMT >There *is* no right or wrong! > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Carola Right. I just hate getting criticized (not in this thread, but it's happened before) for having indoor/outdoor cat, when the truth is, where I live it would be stupid to make them stay indoors. About the only risk would be a rogue coyote coming up in the daytime (not likely), or I'd run over them myself (not likely) or space debris would fall on their little heads. But if for some reason they *did* have to start staying indoors, I'd build an enclosure and they'd adjust. I suspect the cats are happy both ways -- it's us humans that argue about it!! :)
Sherry
Can't Spell - 07 Jan 2004 05:09 GMT govtlawyer@aol.com (GovtLawyer) wrote the following words of wisdom:
> I've followed this debate in many threads across several groups, and > there is one point I have not seen raised. <snip>
Well, here's our take on this issue. My wife (before she was my wife) has a son who brought in a cat (without asking). Since it seemed to be therapeutical to him, she let him keep him. Then her older son came back to live with her. He brought 4 kittens with him. The first cat got ticked and started peeing on every piece of furniture he could. Literally.
So, we got my soon to be step-son to move his kitties into his room where they all stayed cooped up for an truly abominadable period of time. Finally, about 5 months later, he moved back out again taking his 4 with him. I would say things settled back down again too, but the first cat was still royally po'd and still ocassionally peed on the furniture. We usually found out when one of the young girls sat down and went ewwww. Not to mention more cat hair than an asthmatic like me could handle. Cat hair all over the place. Floating thru the air to land on our steak dinners more than once (one of the more enterprising among you really should write a poem just about cat hair).
Then older step-son came back yet again. But, before he had, we purchased all new couch and love seat since the previous ones had been totally ruined. After he came back, he brought just one of the not so little anymore kittens with him. We had to buy him a new bed as he took his with him when he left and left it whereever when he came back. Uh-oh I bet you are saying. The first cat got even more po'd this time and did his dangdest to ruin the new furniture and the new mattress. We put up with his attempts about 6 times before my now wife finally had enough and said, "He is now an outside cat and if the other so much as looks crossways at my new couch and loveseat funny, he will be too". A week went by after that and the second cat peed on the loveseat and out he too went. So, now we have two outside cats. One without claws seems to have become a very versatile hunter. The other one almost sorta kinda. We think the first cat has found another home, cause we hardly ever see him. Good for him we think.
I know, there are those among you who think we must be heartless to make a poor cat become an outside cat after he had destroyed over a $1000 bucks worth of furniture and was on his way to trying to duplicate it yet a second time. Oh well. We decided our stuff was of more importance than that of a tempermental cat. It is up to yall however to make a decision concerning your own cat. We had a breaking point and once it was crossed, we made our decision.
Good luck.
Wendy - 07 Jan 2004 13:15 GMT govtlawyer@aol.com (GovtLawyer) wrote the following words of wisdom:
> I've followed this debate in many threads across several groups, and > there is one point I have not seen raised. <snip>
Well, here's our take on this issue. My wife (before she was my wife) has a son who brought in a cat (without asking). Since it seemed to be therapeutical to him, she let him keep him. Then her older son came back to live with her. He brought 4 kittens with him. The first cat got ticked and started peeing on every piece of furniture he could. Literally.
So, we got my soon to be step-son to move his kitties into his room where they all stayed cooped up for an truly abominadable period of time. Finally, about 5 months later, he moved back out again taking his 4 with him. I would say things settled back down again too, but the first cat was still royally po'd and still ocassionally peed on the furniture. We usually found out when one of the young girls sat down and went ewwww. Not to mention more cat hair than an asthmatic like me could handle. Cat hair all over the place. Floating thru the air to land on our steak dinners more than once (one of the more enterprising among you really should write a poem just about cat hair).
Then older step-son came back yet again. But, before he had, we purchased all new couch and love seat since the previous ones had been totally ruined. After he came back, he brought just one of the not so little anymore kittens with him. We had to buy him a new bed as he took his with him when he left and left it whereever when he came back. Uh-oh I bet you are saying. The first cat got even more po'd this time and did his dangdest to ruin the new furniture and the new mattress. We put up with his attempts about 6 times before my now wife finally had enough and said, "He is now an outside cat and if the other so much as looks crossways at my new couch and loveseat funny, he will be too". A week went by after that and the second cat peed on the loveseat and out he too went. So, now we have two outside cats. One without claws seems to have become a very versatile hunter. The other one almost sorta kinda. We think the first cat has found another home, cause we hardly ever see him. Good for him we think.
I know, there are those among you who think we must be heartless to make a poor cat become an outside cat after he had destroyed over a $1000 bucks worth of furniture and was on his way to trying to duplicate it yet a second time. Oh well. We decided our stuff was of more importance than that of a tempermental cat. It is up to yall however to make a decision concerning your own cat. We had a breaking point and once it was crossed, we made our decision.
Good luck.
I'm not about to do the "oh you're horrible" thing. Nobody wants their animals ruining their belongings. It isn't always a bad thing for the cat to be allowed outside if the environment is safe.
I will ask if you tried anything (various sprays etc.) to discourage the cat from using the furniture? Did you try any enzyme cleaners to get the smell out? Were the new cats introduced gradually or did they just move in end of story?
For future reference (not that your about to get another cat in a hurry) this isn't unusual when a new cat(s) are introduced if they aren't introduced gradually. The resident cat feels threatened and marks it's territory. They need a gradual introduction before the new cat(s) have free run in the resident cat's territory. Also cats will continue to use a spot as long as the smell of their previous indescretion remains. Regular combings can greatly reduce the amount of fur found laying around the house.
There are quite a few things you could have tried before taking the action of dumping them outside. If you're ever interested I'm sure many people would be more than happy to offer suggestions.
I also hope the cat that was declawed finds another inside home soon as it is really at a disadvantage if it meets up with another outside cat. Have you considered finding a new home for the kitty where it can be the only cat?
I only bother commenting for the benefit of OP reading this who may have similar problems. There are things to be done that can solve this problem before the furniture/carpeting is ruined without having to ban the cat from the house.
Can't Spell - 07 Jan 2004 14:32 GMT > I'm not about to do the "oh you're horrible" thing. Nobody wants their > animals ruining their belongings. It isn't always a bad thing for the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > smell out? Were the new cats introduced gradually or did they just move > in end of story? Yup, tried all of that. The smell never came out. Tried the sprays too. Too little too late. They got moved in end of story over the protests of my then soon to be wife. Her son needed a place to stay (22 yrs old and he's back for yet a third time now....sighhh) and brought them with him and didn't tell her for a week.
> For future reference (not that your about to get another cat in a hurry) > this isn't unusual when a new cat(s) are introduced if they aren't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Regular combings can greatly reduce the amount of fur found laying > around the house. Figures as much. Neither one of the boys cares enough about their pets to put forth any real effort at having a pet. The second time around when it was just two cats battling it out for supremacy, the first cat's owner (I'll call him B (age 18) and the other one I'll call C (age22))had to be asked on more than one ocassion to change the litter box. And at that I mean he had tobe asked several times for each ocassion. Meaning several days would go by before that happy-for-all event occured. Meanwhile, C let his cat start using the first cta's litter box. And we couldn't get C to empty it either. I wasn't going to do it. They weren't my cats. I made no secret of the fact that I don't like cats. Never have and never will. I know, some of yall ain't gonna be happy to have a cat hater in your midst, but I ain't gonna hide my feelings. Part of it has to do with my asthma. Most of it has to do with the way my Dad raised me. He hated them so I hated them. Now he has one, damn traitor that he is...lol.
> There are quite a few things you could have tried before taking the > action of dumping them outside. If you're ever interested I'm sure many > people would be more than happy to offer suggestions. My wife put up with several hundred dollars worth of damages and serious talks with her boys to no avail. This was a definite last resort for us. Even for me, not liking cats as I do, didn't want to do this.
> I also hope the cat that was declawed finds another inside home soon as > it is really at a disadvantage if it meets up with another outside cat. > Have you considered finding a new home for the kitty where it can be the > only cat? Nobody wanted it. And B, the cats owner didn't want to give it up. Damn cat abuser is what he is. He rarely sees the cat now and doesn't seem to really give a damn. He is 19 yrs old now and thinks he's the superior of most adults he meets because of his higher than normal IQ. I don't think it is all that high, but he does and that makes him special. Plays video games all night, sleeps during the day. Wears pajamas everywhere he goes. And I mean everywhere. He wore them to our wedding. Pissed me off too. Superior my a.s. Life is going to do what it does best one of these days and bite him on the a.s. I hope he survives.
> I only bother commenting for the benefit of OP reading this who may have > similar problems. There are things to be done that can solve this > problem before the furniture/carpeting is ruined without having to ban > the cat from the house. Well, tell some of those ways so that they can benefit then. It's too late for our situation, but they might wanna know. As for us, I think a major portion of the problem were the cats owners thinking only of themselves and putting themselves before their cats welfare.
M.C. Mullen - 07 Jan 2004 18:24 GMT | They weren't my cats. I made no | secret of the fact that I don't like cats. Never have and never will. I | know, some of yall ain't gonna be happy to have a cat hater in your midst, | but I ain't gonna hide my feelings. Part of it has to do with my asthma. | Most of it has to do with the way my Dad raised me. He hated them so I | hated them. Now he has one, damn traitor that he is...lol. Sorry about hearing you have problems with cats, and I think it's part of the job raising teenagers to make them be responsible, so you were right there. Thanks for *trying* to put up with the cats and for trying to understand them. Go and do some further 'catwatching' at your father's :-)
| > I only bother commenting for the benefit of OP reading this who may have | > similar problems. There are things to be done that can solve this [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] | portion of the problem were the cats owners thinking only of themselves and | putting themselves before their cats welfare. Yes, I have to agree with you, but how about giving the cats some thoughts behind their owners backs (I mean they can't help the situation) and maybe find a good solution for them?
Carola
Can't Spell - 08 Jan 2004 13:46 GMT > Sorry about hearing you have problems with cats, and I think it's part of > the job raising teenagers to make them be responsible, so you were right > there. Thanks for *trying* to put up with the cats and for trying to > understand them. Go and do some further 'catwatching' at your father's :-) Ewwww, why would I wanna do that? His cat took a huge chunk of meat out of my step-grandmothers leg. And no, she wasn't agitating either. She was giving the cat the same attention that up to that point the cat had seemed to beg for. As for putting up with the cats, my wife always said that I really did like cats, I was just all talk.
> Yes, I have to agree with you, but how about giving the cats some thoughts > behind their owners backs (I mean they can't help the situation) and maybe > find a good solution for them? > > Carola I did do a few things for them behind their back. I fed and watered them more often than not. I think that there were times when if it hadn't been for me, they would have starved. Don't tell anyone (my "I hate cats" image will go right out the window), but I even sat down and petted them quite often when no one was around to watch me debase myself like that. But, I drew the line at litter boxes. As for a "good solution", I thought of a few things. We couldn't give them away. Who wants a cat that has been proven to mark it's territory by peeing on everything in sight? We couldn't take them to the pound, because then the boys would have kicked up a major fuss. And if had made the suggestion in the first place, there would have been bad blood forever. Sighhh, that seemed like the only thing to do. It wasn't my idea mind you. It was my wife finally getting fed up with the status quo. Oh well, that decision was made some months ago and it is way too late to change it now. If the one keeps leaving dirty paw prints all over our new white van, I may shoot him. Ok, so I don't own a gun and if I did and tried that, I would probably put holes all in the van, but such is my frustration level.
Wendy - 08 Jan 2004 16:37 GMT > I'm not about to do the "oh you're horrible" thing. Nobody wants their > animals ruining their belongings. It isn't always a bad thing for the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > smell out? Were the new cats introduced gradually or did they just move > in end of story? Yup, tried all of that. The smell never came out. Tried the sprays too. Too little too late. They got moved in end of story over the protests of my then soon to be wife. Her son needed a place to stay (22 yrs old and he's back for yet a third time now....sighhh) and brought them with him and didn't tell her for a week.
> For future reference (not that your about to get another cat in a hurry) > this isn't unusual when a new cat(s) are introduced if they aren't [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Regular combings can greatly reduce the amount of fur found laying > around the house. Figures as much. Neither one of the boys cares enough about their pets to put forth any real effort at having a pet. The second time around when it was just two cats battling it out for supremacy, the first cat's owner (I'll call him B (age 18) and the other one I'll call C (age22))had to be asked on more than one ocassion to change the litter box. And at that I mean he had tobe asked several times for each ocassion. Meaning several days would go by before that happy-for-all event occured. Meanwhile, C let his cat start using the first cta's litter box. And we couldn't get C to empty it either. I wasn't going to do it. They weren't my cats. I made no secret of the fact that I don't like cats. Never have and never will. I know, some of yall ain't gonna be happy to have a cat hater in your midst, but I ain't gonna hide my feelings. Part of it has to do with my asthma. Most of it has to do with the way my Dad raised me. He hated them so I hated them. Now he has one, damn traitor that he is...lol.
> There are quite a few things you could have tried before taking the > action of dumping them outside. If you're ever interested I'm sure many > people would be more than happy to offer suggestions. My wife put up with several hundred dollars worth of damages and serious talks with her boys to no avail. This was a definite last resort for us. Even for me, not liking cats as I do, didn't want to do this.
> I also hope the cat that was declawed finds another inside home soon as > it is really at a disadvantage if it meets up with another outside cat. > Have you considered finding a new home for the kitty where it can be the > only cat? Nobody wanted it. And B, the cats owner didn't want to give it up. Damn cat abuser is what he is. He rarely sees the cat now and doesn't seem to really give a damn. He is 19 yrs old now and thinks he's the superior of most adults he meets because of his higher than normal IQ. I don't think it is all that high, but he does and that makes him special. Plays video games all night, sleeps during the day. Wears pajamas everywhere he goes. And I mean everywhere. He wore them to our wedding. Pissed me off too. Superior my a.s. Life is going to do what it does best one of these days and bite him on the a.s. I hope he survives.
> I only bother commenting for the benefit of OP reading this who may have > similar problems. There are things to be done that can solve this > problem before the furniture/carpeting is ruined without having to ban > the cat from the house. Well, tell some of those ways so that they can benefit then. It's too late for our situation, but they might wanna know. As for us, I think a major portion of the problem were the cats owners thinking only of themselves and putting themselves before their cats welfare.
I hadn't realized from your original post that all the cats mentioned weren't yours. Kinda sounds like you toyed with the idea of making the kids outside kids as well as the cats. ;o)
If you still have a problem with the odor anywhere and have tried enzyme cleaners you can try white vinegar. That finally did the trick on my carpet. The enzyme cleaners should remove all the stain tho.
Lots of luck with the kids. Teenagers are not always easy to deal with. Hang in there.
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