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Cat Forum / General Topics / January 2004New to group, but have a question
I just started reading your posts a few days ago, so far I like what I see. I hope you all don't mind a question from someone who has never posted or been reading for that long, but this bothers me and no one has been able to help so far. Start with a little history of my boy: I have a 10 year old grey Tabby. He is my baby! He came into my life about 5 years ago. He was a stray, walked into my apartment one day ( I was not suppose to have animals), so I tried everything to get him to leave. I was not going to just totally shut him out though as I have never been able to live without a cat in my life. I am Blackfoot Indian, and my spirit guide is the big cat. I was unable to turn him away for long as he captured my heart. He was domesticated, not wild at all. He is very sweet and overly loveing, when I go to bed he does, he is by my side constantly when I am home. He IS my baby. Ok, here is what is going on: Tigger has been throwing up. Has been for a couple years now. He had an absesed tooth, that was taken care of, but caused a serious infection in his mouth. So the Vet took care of that also, and Tigger ended up loosing half his back teeth. Thats ok, I know cats, just like people, can live without. He is still vomiting though. The vet is unsure of what is causing it, as they thought it was the absess then the infection. He has neither now, and vomits at least twice a day right after he eats. I have not changed his food. Could it be the food though? I know that the shape of most cat foods (star shaped) can get caught up and choke them. Or could it be something worse the vet can't seem to find. Tigger isn't sick. It does not seem to affect him at all, cause he vomits, then goes back and eats and is fine the second time he eats. Any and all suggegstions would be very appriciated. He has seen 4 vets since this has started, so far no answers. Thank you very much in advance! Double Trouble <snippety snip> > Ok, here is what is going on: > Tigger has been throwing up. Has been for a couple years now. He had an [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Double Trouble The problem could be as a result of what he's being fed. I get the impression that he's being fed dry food. What are you feeding? Seeing that he's missing half of his back teeth, perhaps you should consider gradually switching him over to canned food. You say that he's been seen by 4 vets, but have any of those been specialists? If not, I'd suggest that you get a referral. Best wishes to you and Tigger! Judy & Matilda > <snippety snip> > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > The problem could be as a result of what he's being fed. I get the > impression that he's being fed dry food. What are you feeding? I feed him dry food, this is what he has always had. I feed him Purina Cat Chow. He is very picky and won't eat anything else (except canned). > Seeing that he's missing half of his back teeth, perhaps you should consider > gradually switching him over to canned food. > > You say that he's been seen by 4 vets, but have any of those been > specialists? They were Vets, animal doctors, what do you mean by specialists? > If not, I'd suggest that you get a referral. > > Best wishes to you and Tigger! > > Judy & Matilda Thanks! Me and Tigger > > <snippety snip> > > [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > They were Vets, animal doctors, what do you mean by specialists? Specialists are animal vets who specialize in a particular area of medicine. Vets are like general practitioners. If you had a heart problem that your gp wasn't able to deal with, he/she would send you to a heart specialist. When my vet diagnosed my previous cat with anemia, she tried her best to treat it, but when she hit a dead end, she referred me to someone who specialized in internal medicine. I hope this answers your question. > > If not, I'd suggest that you get a referral. > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Thanks! > Me and Tigger >The problem could be as a result of what he's being fed. I get the >impression that he's being fed dry food. What are you feeding? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >specialists? >If not, I'd suggest that you get a referral. My 19 year old male has had lots of teeth problems, I give only moist food now. He has had trouble keeping the dry food down, he apparently doesn't chew it. -------------------------------------------- "It took us 15 years to McGyver this thing." -------------------------Carter on Stargate To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address. Hi, I recently adopted a 6-7 year old lady who had problems w/digestion. She couldn't keep food down. My present & former cats ate Fancy Feast, but she wasn't able. She also had half her teeth pulled when she was younger & another one pulled when she came to me. I finally tried Iams and she kept it down..has kept it down for a month. Also, I have always been told to offer canned and dry food...dry food alone was unhealthy. Good luck. > Hi, > Also, I have always been told to offer canned and dry food...dry food alone was > unhealthy. Good luck. Where did you hear that dry food alone was unhealthy? Do you have any reference links I can check out? My previous cats always ate both but Sasha will only eat dry..and I have offered her EVERY type of canned cat food and even fresh prepared human food like salmon, chicken, tuna and turkey. My vet told me as long as I fed her a good dry with complete nutrition that it was fine. Just wondering why you believe dry alone is bad. AG "Agua Girl" uknown@spamblock.net asks >Where did you hear that dry food alone was unhealthy? Do >you have any reference links I can check out? "Unlike dogs, who can get along just fine on dry food only, cats need wet, or canned, food to stay healthy. The reason is that cats originated in the Middle East, in a very dry climate. Because there was so little water available, the cats extracted moisture from their food - mainly small game." Dr. Judy Stolz is a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine and a holistic practitioner. Her Desert Animal Wellness Center is located in Phoenix, Arizona > "Agua Girl" uknown@spamblock.net > asks [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > practitioner. > Her Desert Animal Wellness Center is located in Phoenix, Arizona You left out this part: "If owners must feed cats dry food, I recommend you use a high quality, organic dry food, like Flint River Ranch." Here's the link the you neglected to include. http://www.softrain.com/natpaws/drjudy2.htm Here's the link to her site. http://www.drstolz.com/ This gal is a homeopath, trying to earn a living. Do you not know that before domestication (being the key word) there were predatory canines living where ever, including the middle east, surviving the same way as felines? Both animals had to hunt for their food and find water in limited conditions. No doubt you'll be astonished to know that the "sister cats" of a friend of mine who have been eating dry food all of their lives - they are 14 now - are still alive and well. Another friend of mine fed her cat totally dry food until he died at the age of 19, and niether of them ever ate Flint River. I'm with Agua Girl - post some references, as in links. > > "Agua Girl" uknown@spamblock.net > > asks [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > I'm with Agua Girl - post some references, as in links. I went to the site and quickly saw what the intent was. Another vet hired by a pet food manufacturer. I will admit with my first two cats I was less informed so they ate Purina or fancy feast or whatever was available. Sher Khan was diagnosed with Feline Leukemia at age 13 and still lived another 3 years before he succombed, Nermal died at age 17. Sher Khan was a tad obese before he was diagnosed, Nermal put on a tiny bit of weight that last year just cause she slowed down. The only one with urinary infections was Nermal and she was the one who would hardly touch the dry, wanted only canned food. Through the years I have gotten pickier about what I feed my animals even if they weren't picky about what they ate. I know how to read a contents label and I know how to look up the nutritional requirements for felines. I don't listen to the marketing ploys..I read information from independent research...combine it with what I know about MY cat and what my vet has told me about the health of MY cat and go from there. I am certainly not concerned about the amount of water that cat gets... she drinks as much as I do (per body weight <g>) and I drink more than I need. Hence the nick :-) AG >she drinks as much as I do (per body weight <g>) and I drink more >than I need. Hence the nick :-) > >AG Shouldn't that be aQua then....?  Signature79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle. > >she drinks as much as I do (per body weight <g>) and I drink more > >than I need. Hence the nick :-) > > > >AG > > > Shouldn't that be aQua then....? It started when I wanted to change my nick to disassociate from an ex. A friend suggest Aqua babe..but babe is pretentious and the Aqua Girl sounds like a comic book side kick. Agua is spanish (or at least Mexico spanish) for water and although I am not from Mexico...we spent lots of time down there off roading and used agua to mean water a lot because of it. Long story longer...I choose Agua girl over Aqua babe <g> AG >Where did you hear that dry food alone >was unhealthy? Do you have any >reference links I can check out? Dry cat food is as far removed from a cat's natural diet as you can get, and is full of unnecessary carbohydrates that cats are physiologically ill-equipped to properly process. That's one reason why there is such a high percentage of obese cats, and we're seeing more and more diabetes. There is also the suspicion that a dry diet increases the risk of CRF. Dry food also increases the risk factor for urinary tract problems as a cat must drink 6x as much water as they would need when eating a canned diet, which they rarely do and stay in a constant state of dehydration. This results in less urine volume which sets the stage for sediment and crystals to build up and form urethral plugs and irritate the bladder lining. Kind of like the difference between flushing a toilet with one gallon of water instead of five. Feeding a cat a dry diet is equivalent to a human eating nothing but dry cereal day in and day out. I can't imagine anyone that would think that's healthy. Sure, there are vets that recommend a dry diet, but those that do are ignorant of a cat's true needs. Generally vets get very little training in nutrition, if any, and most of the time the training they do receive is from representatives of Hills pet food which is tantamount to letting the fox guard the henhouse! Here is a very good article about what's best to feed a cat: http://www.avma.org/convention/recap/news/tuesday16.asp Also check out the canned vs. dry section of this article: http://www.maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm The best you can do for your cats is to feed a high quality canned diet and vary flavors at each meal. My cats never get the same thing twice in one day. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >Where did you hear that dry food alone > >was unhealthy? Do you have any [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Megan The only thing I get out of all of this is that "most" dry foods do not contain all the nutrients a cat needs (but some higher quality brands do) and that "most" cats need canned food to get the needed amount of water. Perhaps the reason my vet is not concerned with the fact that Sasha won't eat canned food is that she isn't obese and drinks a lot of water. BTW.. it's not that I am feeding her only dry..it's that she will eat only dry. I have tried numerous brands...even resorted to trying stuff like Fancy Feast just to see if the artificial stuff might appeal. No go. So short of force feeding her something she doesn't want I am not sure how I can get her to eat something else. I've read the ingredients on her food and I am unconcerned. AG | > Here is a very good article about what's best to feed a cat: | > http://www.avma.org/convention/recap/news/tuesday16.asp [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] | | AG It all depends on the cat. Like humans cats show healthy preferences too which one should not ignore. Our last cat was a bad drinker and he wanted wet food only. The new cat wants dry food only and drinks a good amount during the day. So they both want what's good for them. What I like about dry food is that it cleans the teeth. And if I can make the cat happy that loves canned food, fine. But the OP who has a problem with his cat that has no more teeth would do well to feed his cat wet food as the dry swells up in the stomach. Throw a piece of dry food into water and watch how it gets huge after a while. Carola > Tigger has been throwing up. Has been for a couple years now. He had an > absesed tooth, that was taken care of, but caused a serious infection in his [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Double Trouble I would suggest that you try a premium quality canned food. Make the transition gradually -- don't try to force Tigger to go "cold turkey." I use canned Wellness and canned Felidae. The results with both of my cats have been excellent (beautiful fur, excellent health, steady weight), and it does not cost as much more as one would expect because they don't need as much of this food to maintain their weight. I feed approximately 1/3 can per day to each cat, 12 hours apart or as close to that as possible. This is for cats that are about 8 lbs. each. Also, you might want to add some furball control such as Laxatone if you have not already done that. In fact, some people use canned pumpkin for that purpose (2 teaspoons canned pumpkin mixed in a small jar of canned chicken or turkey baby food). Incidentally, if you use the baby food, be sure to get all-meat with no vegetables -- some mixes contain onion, and that can be toxic to cats. MaryL >Incidentally, if you use the baby food, be sure to get all-meat with no >vegetables -- some mixes contain onion, and that can be toxic to cats. It can? -------------------------------------------- "It took us 15 years to McGyver this thing." -------------------------Carter on Stargate To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address. > >Incidentally, if you use the baby food, be sure to get all-meat with no > >vegetables -- some mixes contain onion, and that can be toxic to cats. > > It can? Yes, it can, and you should also avoid other members of the onion family. Here are a couple of links that may interest you: http://www.monkeymaddness.com/articles/onions.html http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?cls=0&cat=1763&articleid=1108 And here is a link that indicates that it is safe to use garlic with dogs but not cats (something I can't guarantee because I don't have much knowledge of products that are safe for dogs): http://www.care2.com/channels/solutions/pets/816 MaryL (take out the litter to reply) Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'< http://tinyurl.com/8y54 (Introducing Duffy to Holly) http://tinyurl.com/8y56 (Duffy and Holly "settle in") I have a 10+ year old that had 13(!!!!) of her teeth pulled last March, and was on antibiotics for infection for 2 weeks after that. After having her bad teeth pulled, and her mouth not hurting all the time, she would gobble down the dry food so fast (feeding frenzy!) that she would urk it all back up in about a half hour (I think it swelled in her tummy), so we had her on canned until she got the 'rhythm of eating' down pat again, and she's now back on dry (Science Diet Adult Light, occasionally gets some kitten chow [she sneaks into my hand-reared Weeble's food dish, but knows she's not supposed to]). She only urks up now when she has a hairball. The vet that pulled her teeth said that she would be able to eat dry, since she's been swallowing it whole for a while, her teeth hurting that bad, but not to feed the kind that has shapes - to get the 'round' kibble. SignatureThe ONE and ONLY lefthanded-pathetic-paranoid-psychotic-sarcastic-wiseass-ditzy former-blonde in Bloomington! (And proud of it, too)? http://www.geocities.com/the_magic_mood_jeep/ http://community.webshots.com/user/mgcmdjeep > I just started reading your posts a few days ago, so far I like what I see. > I hope you all don't mind a question from someone who has never posted or [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > Double Trouble > I just started reading your posts a few days ago, so far I like what I see. > I hope you all don't mind a question from someone who has never posted or [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Thank you very much in advance! He's probably just eating too fast. Try feeding a small small portion, than when that's gone, another small small portion. I'd also try some canned rather than dry to see if it slows him down. If that doesn't help, ask your vet to send you to a vet that specializes in internal problems. AG >I just started reading your posts a few days ago, so far I like what I see. >I hope you all don't mind a question from someone who has never posted or [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] >second time he eats. Any and all suggegstions would be very appriciated. >He has seen 4 vets since this has started, so far no answers. Sounds alot like my 19 year old male. He would eat to fast and throw up. I solved the problem by taking the usual serviing and giving it to him in three sitings. He kept the food down. Problem solved. -------------------------------------------- "It took us 15 years to McGyver this thing." -------------------------Carter on Stargate To send me e-mail exorcise NO Spam from my e-mail address. Thank you for all the suggestions and comments! I will put them into good use. I did notice when I went home from work this morning (as Tigger wanted to snuggle closer to my face than usual) that his teeth are getting bad again. I am going to have to take him back to the vet anyway. In the mean time, I will be changing him slowely over to soft food. Thanks again for the wonderful responses, it was very appriciated! Me and Tigger >I just started reading your posts a few days ago, so far I like what I see. >I hope you all don't mind a question from someone who has never posted or [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > >Double Trouble If he is missing that many teeth he probably cannot eat the food properly (cats cannot chew anyway) so he could be taking in food that is giving him problems from being too large and/or dry etc. I'd mvoe to a wet food or one of the moist foods and see if that makes a difference. Signature79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle. > On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:06:14 -0500, "Double Trouble" > If he is missing that many teeth he probably cannot eat the food > properly (cats cannot chew anyway) That's a little mis-leading. They can't move their jaws to "chew" in the same way we do but they do use their teeth to break up their food...I know because I can hear and see my cat doing it. BTW... for all those wet vs dry food debates. I checked and my cats dry food is 39% protein, 10% crude fat and 10 % water (yes, there is water in dry food..odd as it seems). That means it can't possibly be 70% cereal and is not akin to eating dry breakfast cereal all the time. My big concern is the 9% ash versus about 2% in canned foods. Canned food averages 70% water, and only 9% protein. Seems to me that if you cat drinks water than there is nothing "better" for them about canned versus dry. Moot point for me since Sasha won't touch the stuff. AG >BTW... for all those wet vs dry food >debates. I checked and my cats dry food [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >be 70% cereal and is not akin to eating >dry breakfast cereal all the time. In terms of moisture content it is no different than feeding dry cereal, and in terms of canned vs. dry the *unnecessary* carbohydrate content in dry is incredibly high in comparison to canned. >My big concern is the 9% ash versus >about 2% in canned foods. Canned food >averages 70% water, and only 9% protein. >Seems to me that if you cat drinks water >than there is nothing "better" for them >about canned versus dry. That's because you're not doing the math correctly. Calculations of fat, protein, carbs, etc must be done on a dry matter basis. You also made it clear in your previous comments on what you gleaned from the information provided that you paid little attention and are choosing to just ignore much of the information and the sound reasons why a canned diet is healthier. You have to take into account where that water your cat drinks to make up for the water she *should* be getting in her food goes or how it affects health in the short and long term. Why feed a cat a diet that *forces* it to make up for lost moisture? We should be feeding cats a proper diet that meets *all* their needs rather than one that is convenient for us. You can get an overview of dry matter basis calculation, etc. here: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=FJDe5.4519%24Uo6.245661% 40bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray Agua Girl wrote: >BTW... for all those wet vs dry food >debates. I checked and my cats dry food [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >be 70% cereal and is not akin to eating >dry breakfast cereal all the time. In terms of moisture content it is no different than feeding dry cereal, and in terms of canned vs. dry the *unnecessary* carbohydrate content in dry is incredibly high in comparison to canned. Where are you getting the Carb calculations??? >My big concern is the 9% ash versus >about 2% in canned foods. Canned food >averages 70% water, and only 9% protein. >Seems to me that if you cat drinks water >than there is nothing "better" for them >about canned versus dry. >That's because you're not doing the math correctly. Calculations of fat, >protein, carbs, etc must be done on a dry matter basis. You also made it >clear in your previous comments on what you gleaned from the information >provided that you paid little attention and are choosing to just ignore >much of the information and the sound reasons why a canned diet is >healthier. That isn't true. I read the links...I also read as many links that state the opposite. Most of those vets are "promoting" one type of food over another because the so called research was paid for by a food manufacturer. My vet, the one that actually see's my cat..has nothing to gain by promoting one food over another. >You have to take into account where that water your cat >drinks to make up for the water she *should* be getting in her food goes >or how it affects health in the short and long term. I don't understand this. Why does it matter where the water comes from? and when they drink water, how do you figure it goes somewhere else than when they get it in their food? I realize their anatomy is different from a humans but we can "drink" water for hydration, why is it a cat can't? >Why feed a cat a >diet that *forces* it to make up for lost moisture? We should be feeding >cats a proper diet that meets *all* their needs rather than one that is <convenient for us. What the hell are you talking about? If you had been reading my posts you should know that I don't choose to feed my cat dry. Both of my previous cats got canned food, the cats I rescued got canned food... Sasha won't eat it. Not Iams, not Science Diet, not Nutro, not even Friskies or Fancy Feast. She also won't eat people food like tuna, Salmon or turkey. If I could cook for her I would...she wont' eat it. The only reason I started looking into a completely dry diet is because thats all she will eat. Understand? You can get an overview of dry matter basis calculation, etc. here: http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=FJDe5.4519%24Uo6.245661% 40bgtnsc07-news.ops.worldnet.att.net Not independent research...just another persons opinion. The fact that they present it logically does not make it a fact...besides..like I have said in the past..and again in the post...it's moot point..Sasha cant' read it and she is the one making the decision by refusing to eat anything else. AG >> On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:06:14 -0500, "Double Trouble" > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >to break up their food...I know because I can hear and >see my cat doing it. Chewing is a specific motion involving side to side action on the molars. Cats cannot chew in the technical but with sufficient teeth they can approximate it well enough as you say. Certainly my cats can reduce kibble to small bits very quickly with a full set of teeth. >BTW... for all those wet vs dry food debates. I checked >and my cats dry food is 39% protein, 10% crude fat and >10 % water (yes, there is water in dry food..odd as it seems). >That means it can't possibly be 70% cereal cereal contains fairly large amounts of proteins as I recall..... > and is not akin to >eating dry breakfast cereal all the time. My big concern is [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >AG Signature79.84% of all statistics are made up on the spot. The other 42% are made up later on. In Warwick - looking at flat fields and that includes the castle. > >> On Fri, 2 Jan 2004 00:06:14 -0500, "Double Trouble" > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > cereal contains fairly large amounts of proteins as I recall..... Most cereals contain between 19-25% protein, considerably less than the 39% . <snip> Here is a question: Why is it that we worry more about what content of this and that our babies are eating, but we don't do the same for ourselves. I certainly don't by the cheepest brnd cat food out there, nor will I ever, but come on, can't we let the animal be happy. They know our tensions as our own children do. My brothers cat was fed anything he wanted to by for her that week, and it was usually the store brad crap. She lived to be 21. We finally had to put her down, she could have probably lived another 5 years if we let her, but she got to where she couldn't remember who she was or what she did last, so our best choice was to put her to sleep. I say let the cat eat what it wants as long as it does not make it sick and let it be happy. That is coming from my feline side point of view. DD and Tigger > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > long as it does not make it sick and let it be happy. That is coming from > my feline side point of view. For the same reason you don't let them play in the street or go "unaltered". We are smarter. We are there care takers. I do worry about what I am eating as much as what my cat is eating. In order to live healthy, to have quality of life; it's important to eat healthy. Sasha can't go to the store and pick out her own food nor can she make the decision what is good for her so it's up to me. Of course she ultimately makes the decision but if your cat will eat anything, better to feed them well rather than just feed them. Of course there are always going to be cats that get sick even when they are fed the best and visa versa but your best odds are a healthy diet. AG |
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