Cat Forum / General Topics / January 2004
Call it what it is: killed NOT euthanized
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Joe Pitt - 04 Dec 2003 14:05 GMT I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and dogs) in animal control facilities. He emphasised that you euthanize an animal that is SICK. What is happening in shelters all over is they are KILLING perfectly fine animals because they are unwanted, often due to the failure to spay and neuter their parents. The general public sees 'euthanized' and it softens what is happening in their minds.
I see postings that say you adopted the day before the animal was due to be euthanized. Tell people you adopted just before the animal was due to be KILLED.
It may seem a small thing, but when you talk to people it may help their awareness of the problem.
Every day 10,000 human babies are born 70,000 kittens and puppies are born If every infant when home with a kitten or puppy there would still be 60,000 left to find homes. Most of them never will.
 Signature Joe http://www.jwpitt.com/cats.htm Cat Rescue http://www.animalrescuefoundation.com God created the cat so man could have the pleasure of petting the tiger
Mary - 04 Dec 2003 15:18 GMT > I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and dogs) in > animal control facilities. He emphasised that you euthanize an animal that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > left to find homes. > Most of them never will. Thank you, Joe. You are absolutely right. I used the term out of habit, not stopping to think about the distinction you note.
Mr Nangla - 04 Dec 2003 18:44 GMT Hey Joe,
This is very true, I find myself stumped sometimes when explaining to my little cousins why my cat can't have babies because of all the 'unwanted' cats and dogs that are 'euthanized'. It's funny how the kids can see through all the crap and ask 'but why'.
Regards,
Sonny London, England
> > I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and > dogs) in [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Thank you, Joe. You are absolutely right. I used the term out of > habit, not stopping to think about the distinction you note. Sherry - 04 Dec 2003 20:06 GMT >I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and dogs) in >animal control facilities. He emphasised that you euthanize an animal that [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >It may seem a small thing, but when you talk to people it may help their >awareness of the problem. Very true. I use the term mostly out of habit, when I also know it's a misuse of the word. I think it wouldn't hurt to start using "kill" in front of John Q. Public. It's not a pretty word, but it's the bald truth and just might jolt somebody into the reality of the situation. Sherry
-L. - 05 Dec 2003 04:58 GMT > I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and dogs) in > animal control facilities. He emphasised that you euthanize an animal that > is SICK. What is happening in shelters all over is they are KILLING > perfectly fine animals because they are unwanted, often due to the failure > to spay and neuter their parents. The general public sees 'euthanized' and > it softens what is happening in their minds. It's not good and it's not right, and I certainly wish it never had to happen. But death by lethal injection is more *humane* than death on the streets, death by prolonged disease, death by dog or other predator, being hit by cars, or shot or maimed by a human. It is even preferrable to prolonged life in a cage. No, it isn't euthanasia, in the proper meaning of the word, but it is better than the alternatives.
-L.
Sherry - 05 Dec 2003 05:05 GMT >It's not good and it's not right, and I certainly wish it never had to >happen. But death by lethal injection is more *humane* than death on [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >-L. Absolutely. There are worse things than a sodium pentobarbitol injection. Starving on the streets, or dying from injury is certainly worse.
Sherry
Wendy - 05 Dec 2003 12:15 GMT > I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and dogs) in > animal control facilities. He emphasised that you euthanize an animal that > is SICK. What is happening in shelters all over is they are KILLING > perfectly fine animals because they are unwanted, often due to the failure > to spay and neuter their parents. The general public sees 'euthanized' and > it softens what is happening in their minds. It's not good and it's not right, and I certainly wish it never had to happen. But death by lethal injection is more *humane* than death on the streets, death by prolonged disease, death by dog or other predator, being hit by cars, or shot or maimed by a human. It is even preferrable to prolonged life in a cage. No, it isn't euthanasia, in the proper meaning of the word, but it is better than the alternatives.
-L.
That should read the possibility of death on the streets etc.
The cat may not agree with you but it makes people feel better.
-L. - 05 Dec 2003 23:27 GMT > > I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and dogs) in > > animal control facilities. He emphasised that you euthanize an animal that [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > That should read the possibility of death on the streets etc. Cats on the streets die sooner or later. Most of them sooner.
-L.
Rona Yuthasastrakosol - 06 Dec 2003 00:14 GMT > Cats on the streets die sooner or later. Most of them sooner. > > -L. Last I heard, cats in homes die sooner or later, too. Come to think of it, humans do, too :-)!
rona
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Phil P. - 05 Dec 2003 12:00 GMT > I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and dogs) in > animal control facilities. He emphasised that you euthanize an animal that [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > It may seem a small thing, but when you talk to people it may help their > awareness of the problem. Maybe if everyone used the correct terms that describes exactly what it is, more people would be outraged and sickened enough to force legislation to eliminate it -- like mandatory neuter before adoption or sale (health permiting) and subsidize vets or give them a tax deduction for neutering all animals in their care regardless of the owners' consent or ability to pay.
I use the terms "excecute", "put to death", "slaughter"... because they stick in peoples' throats and are much harder to swallow than "put to sleep" or euthanize" or "put down".
Meghan Noecker - 06 Dec 2003 09:11 GMT >Maybe if everyone used the correct terms that describes exactly what it is, >more people would be outraged and sickened enough to force legislation to >eliminate it -- like mandatory neuter before adoption or sale (health >permiting) and subsidize vets or give them a tax deduction for neutering all >animals in their care regardless of the owners' consent or ability to pay. It would be great to get help with vet costs for altering pets, but no vet would ever go along with mandatory altering without owners' consent. If they altered a champion dog that was part of a breeding program, there would be a major lawsuit. So, so they will not go for that. But it would be wonderful to make the procedure lower in cost to help encourage it.
One very easy way to pay for this is to increase the legal limit of pets in most areas. In my city, the legal limit is only 3, which is quite common. A lot of people have more than the legal amount. I cannot imagine only having 3 (maybe for me personally, but there are 3 other animal lovers in the house too). So, in our case, only 3 have licenses. The dogs, who have to wear al license when we go out.
If the legal limit were higher, then more pets would be licensed. And tha money could help to lower the costs of altering. Also, more animals could be rescued. I can pick up a stray off the street, but I cannot legally adopt a pet from a shelter or breed rescue since I already have 3 licensed pets in my home. Such a shame, when all of them are altered, the yard is fenced, the cats are indoor only, and everybody is well cared for.
Now, you can get a license for a catery, but you have to pay for a special license every year in addition to all the individual licenses. You get punished for quantity rather than a discount. And that is for the purpose of creating more animals! Why not offer a multiple discount if *all* pets are altered?
Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com
Phil P. - 08 Dec 2003 12:07 GMT > >Maybe if everyone used the correct terms that describes exactly what it is, > >more people would be outraged and sickened enough to force legislation to > >eliminate it -- like mandatory neuter before adoption or sale (health > >permitting) and subsidize vets or give them a tax deduction for neutering all
> >animals in their care regardless of the owners' consent or ability to pay. > > > It would be great to get help with vet costs for altering pets, but no > vet would ever go along with mandatory altering without owners' > consent. If mandatory neutering was the law, vets would have no choice.... (health permitting).
If they altered a champion dog that was part of a breeding
> program, there would be a major lawsuit. Vets would be protected by the law.... Btw, breeders are not very high on my list of priorities.... In fact, they're not even on it....
Phil
Kalyahna - 08 Dec 2003 18:11 GMT > > It would be great to get help with vet costs for altering pets, but no > > vet would ever go along with mandatory altering without owners' > > consent. There are low income assistance programs available at some shelters, and we've had some success in getting landlords to require spay/neuter instead of declaw on resident cats.
Btw, I think most (if not all) large shelters DO alter before an animal is made available for adoption, or at the very least before they go home. I know a few middle-of-nowhere shelters that do this as well, even though the animals have to be transported an hour each way to get the surgery done. We're lucky enough to have a fantastic vet school in town, and some of the students come in and even spay and neuter rats for us, now and then.
Phil P. - 09 Dec 2003 10:31 GMT > > > It would be great to get help with vet costs for altering pets, but no > > > vet would ever go along with mandatory altering without owners' [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > we've had some success in getting landlords to require spay/neuter instead > of declaw on resident cats. Before we finalize an adoption to renters, we check with the landlord to make sure pets are allowed and if there are any conditions. We won't approve an adoption if the cat must be declawed.
I've sent my declaw brochure to a few landlords who allowed only declawed and neutered cats... After reading the brochure, a few have changed their policies
http://maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm
http://maxshouse.com/Declaw_Brochure-2.pdf
Print the fronts (page 1), tumble the paper and print the backs. Trim 1/4 in. off the long ends (landscape) - Its a triple-fold brochure that fits into #10 envelopes and plastic (credit card) application holders.
> Btw, I think most (if not all) large shelters DO alter before an animal is > made available for adoption, or at the very least before they go home. With early-age neutering becoming more popular with vets, kittens can now be neutered by the time they're ready for adoption.
Phil
M.C. Mullen - 09 Dec 2003 10:34 GMT | Btw, I think most (if not all) large shelters DO alter before an animal is | made available for adoption, or at the very least before they go home. I | know a few middle-of-nowhere shelters that do this as well, even though the | animals have to be transported an hour each way to get the surgery done. | We're lucky enough to have a fantastic vet school in town, and some of the | students come in and even spay and neuter rats for us, now and then. When I got our new cat at the shelter I was surprised to learn that the cats available were injected and wormed, yes, but only the males were neutered. Females and males were the same price though. Strange isn't it?
Carola
lakinapook - 10 Dec 2003 00:34 GMT I know the non profit no kill shelters will spay or neuter the animal before adoption if possible, if not, then you can bring the animal in at a later time and have them altered for no additional adoption fee. I believe that our local Humane Society has the same policy. A friend of mine adopted from there and brought her cat back to be spayed.
> | Btw, I think most (if not all) large shelters DO alter before an animal is > | made available for adoption, or at the very least before they go home. I [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Carola Joe Pitt - 10 Dec 2003 18:00 GMT The SPCA in my area, Central Florida, stopped doing that. They found that although there was no additional cost they animals weren't being altered. Then people brought in the kittens (and puppies) from the animal they were supposed to get altered. Now EVERYTHING is altered before going out the door. You pick out your new friend and come back in a day or two to pick them up.
 Signature Joe http://www.jwpitt.com/cats.htm Cat Rescue http://www.animalrescuefoundation.com God created the cat so man could have the pleasure of petting the tiger
> I know the non profit no kill shelters will spay or neuter the animal > before adoption if possible, if not, then you can bring the animal in [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > > Carola Sharon Talbert - 16 Dec 2003 23:33 GMT Same with the City of Seattle shelter. They gave up the "prepaid" spay a couple of decades ago and moved to "early" sterilization, with kittens and puppies done by 8 weeks. (Younger animals are fostered until they are adoption age.)
Sharon Talbert Friends of Campus Cats
> The SPCA in my area, Central Florida, stopped doing that. They found that > although there was no additional cost they animals weren't being altered. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > > > > > Carola dkar - 12 Dec 2003 04:08 GMT I couldn't agree more, Phil. Society likes to come up with words to hide what they don't want to think about.
...like "pro choice" instead of "killing".
> > I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and dogs) in > > animal control facilities. He emphasised that you euthanize an animal that [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > stick in peoples' throats and are much harder to swallow than "put to sleep" > or euthanize" or "put down". Ray Ban - 19 Dec 2003 22:48 GMT > > I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and dogs) in > > animal control facilities. He emphasised that you euthanize an animal that [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > permiting) and subsidize vets or give them a tax deduction for neutering all > animals in their care regardless of the owners' consent or ability to pay. If you talk about tax deduction, that means either cut money from some other program to pay for this proposed program or increase taxes. That would be fine if you can only increase taxes for those who really care. My suggestion is to establish a fund or charity. Then those who can't stand killing of cats can give to that charity. It would be nice also if said charity is one of the charities listed on tax forms.
Cheryl - 19 Dec 2003 22:56 GMT Dec 2003:
> My suggestion is to establish a fund or charity. Then those who > can't stand killing of cats can give to that charity. It would be nice > also if said charity is one of the charities listed on tax forms. Many animal welfare charities are tax deductable. HS and most local SPCA donations are. There is a huge one, Petsmart Charities. They do amazing things for rescue groups. Grants, etc. Whenever you see the fundraiser at the local Petsmart store asking for a couple of dollars, this is where most of it goes to. :) From my research on them, they are especially interested spay/neuter programs. When I go to stock up on the stuff I can only get at Petsmart, I add a few dollars to my total bill for their charities. Spay/neuter programs are directly related to how many cats are killed by animal control programs.
 Signature Cheryl
"I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do." - Helen Keller
Cheryl - 19 Dec 2003 23:06 GMT > Spay/neuter programs are directly related to how many > cats are killed by animal control programs. Oh, and as an afterthought. Grants from charities such as Petsmart Charities and others should be praised for their part in low cost spay/neuter events hosted by local SPCA and other rescue groups. Donations directly to them go a long way, but grants from these companies literally pay the bills. Want to know who the other biggies are? Google "animal welfare grant". Add "spay neuter" for more.
 Signature Cheryl
"I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do." - Helen Keller
Kalyahna - 06 Dec 2003 04:29 GMT > I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and dogs) in > animal control facilities. He emphasised that you euthanize an animal that > is SICK. It's still ending their life before the natural bodily functions would have stopped on their own. It's killing, either way. The point is the prevention of further suffering, and this DOES include aggressive animals that would otherwise sit in a kennel.
What is happening in shelters all over is they are KILLING
> perfectly fine animals because they are unwanted, often due to the failure > to spay and neuter their parents. Yes, a large part of it has to do with the lack of spaying and neutering. But damned near as much of it has to do with irresponsible people who dump their pets on overcrowded shelters for trivial reasons (moving, new baby, too big, no time, etc).
A lot of shelters apparently have a reputation for euthanizing strays as soon as their legal holding period is over. NOT every shelter does this.
> The general public sees 'euthanized' and > it softens what is happening in their minds. > > I see postings that say you adopted the day before the animal was due to be > euthanized. Tell people you adopted just before the animal was due to be > KILLED. And continue to let people think that killing animals is the sole purpose of shelters and humane societies. One of my coworkers was out a month or so ago, and someone struck up a conversation with her, asking what she did for a living. When she replied that she worked for the humane society, he asked, "Oh, so you kill animals for a living?" THAT --IS-- the general attitude of the public.
By the way, not every shelter still uses the time-limit criteria for euthanasia.
On a more personal note (which explains why this subject is so intensely irritating), as a certified euthanasia tech, I helped with my first euth today. Four of them, actually. A pit who had attacked two cats, an ancient husky with severe handling issues, an absolutely petrified pit, and a chow/gsd mix that leaned on ME when he got woozy. See, I'd played ball with him in the play-yards on several occasions. I liked that dog a great deal, despite his issues. But he HAD those issues, and we cannot put a dog up for adoption that will bite if someone reaches toward his food dish, or distrusts men completely and barely trusts women. And he was euthanized. Not killed. You know why there's that difference in wording for the people who actually work in this field, Joe? Because frankly, if we look at it as killing, slaughtering, whatever you'd like to call it, it would be impossible for us to do. But if we call it euthanasia, we remember that we put them to sleep, end their suffering, and prevent injury to other animals and other people. We take on that emotional burden and the extra heartbreak that already fills a very emotionally difficult line of work. YOU try to settle it in your mind when a terrified dog trusts you in his last moments with knowing that this dog won't injure anyone, and he won't have to sit in a kennel for another day, just waiting on someone else to do it. YOU try to be grateful that at least in his last moments, someone was with him who cared and cried for him.
And if this was all about animal control facilities that don't adopt out? Tell your presenter to cough up the money to build a shelter in that area, then. And pay the staff that takes care of the animals, or the vets that perform the spays and neuters. Because there's no goddamned room in any existing shelter for those 60,000 kittens and puppies of which you spoke. Ask him how many foster animals he's housed in the last six months. It's very easy to preach, much more difficult to practice.
Now I'm done ranting, because I've had a long day. It's time to finish a book and be comforted by my cats.
~Kal.
Sherry - 06 Dec 2003 05:01 GMT >> I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and dogs) in >> animal control facilities. He emphasised that you euthanize an animal that [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >of further suffering, and this DOES include aggressive animals that would >otherwise sit in a kennel. I think the OP is referring to the literal definition of the word, which means a merciful death for a hopelessly ill or injured animal. The unpleasant truth is, with some shelters the killing isn't all that merciful. Some still use gas chambers, and some give cardiac injections without a pre-sedative. We passed a state law requiriing a pre-sedative three years ago, and I am grateful for that. Whether the animal is being killed or euthanized, the importance of a merciful death, at the hands of a compassionate tech, can't be stressed enough. And I still believe the public, many of whom have this fairy-tale notion that the animals, (and litters) they dump at a shelter is going to a wonderful new home, needs a reality jolt. There's no need to sugar-coat words to ease their conscience. The shelter workers aren't killing animals. They are. Sherry
MaryL - 06 Dec 2003 22:35 GMT > > I attended a presentation about stopping the killing of cats (and dogs) in > > animal control facilities. He emphasised that you euthanize an animal that > > is SICK. > > A lot of shelters apparently have a reputation for euthanizing strays as > soon as their legal holding period is over. NOT every shelter does this. Yes, this is true. I saw Duffy's picture and description on Petfinders, and it was clear that the picture had been there for some time. The description also said that animals were kept at that shelter for 14 days before being euthanized. I was fairly sure that it was too late, but I called anyway. Duffy was still alive! He had been at the shelter for 3 months, and shelter staff were doing everything possible to keep him (literally, to "shelter" him) until a home could be found. That turned out to be one of the best days of my life because I was able to adopt Duffy (and, I hope, one of the best days of *his* life). That animal shelter is going to receive a donation from me at Christmas in Duffy's honor.
> By the way, not every shelter still uses the time-limit criteria for > euthanasia. > > On a more personal note (which explains why this subject is so intensely > irritating), as a certified euthanasia tech, I helped with my first euth > today. But he HAD those issues, and we cannot put a dog up for
> adoption that will bite if someone reaches toward his food dish, or > distrusts men completely and barely trusts women. And he was euthanized. Not [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and other people. We take on that emotional burden and the extra heartbreak > that already fills a very emotionally difficult line of work. This is an excellent point. I once did inspections of our local animal shelter for the Humane Society, and I witnessed the process you just described. I was very impressed with the love and care I saw there. It was clearly painful to the staff when animals were euthanized, but the alternative would have been even worse.
> ~Kal. Ray Ban - 19 Dec 2003 22:53 GMT > Yes, a large part of it has to do with the lack of spaying and neutering. > But damned near as much of it has to do with irresponsible people who dump > their pets on overcrowded shelters for trivial reasons (moving, new baby, > too big, no time, etc). I disagree that having a new baby is a trivial thing. For cat lover zealots here who don't have human children, do you treat having a new kitty a trivial thing?
Tracy - 20 Dec 2003 02:44 GMT > I disagree that having a new baby is a trivial thing. For cat lover > zealots here who don't have human children, do you treat having a new > kitty a trivial thing? I don't think people (most people anyway) are saying that having a new baby is a trivial thing. What they are saying is that using that as an excuse to abandon their responsbility to a cat, especially an older one that will gave extreme difficulty finding a new home, is lame. It is quite possible, as millions of families will attest, to have both a cat and a child simmultaneously. It just takes a little bit of thought about how to accomodate everyone's needs. But a lot of people just don't want to make that little bit of effort. That is thoughtless. Especially when, as is often true, the life or death of a living being is concerned.
Ray Ban - 20 Dec 2003 09:41 GMT > > I disagree that having a new baby is a trivial thing. For cat lover > > zealots here who don't have human children, do you treat having a new [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Especially when, as is often true, the life or death of a living being > is concerned. Well, it's not that simple. Suppose I have a cat. Now a baby arrives. I can't afford to feed and care for both. Who should go? In some cases, it takes much more than just a little bit of thought and a little bit of effort. Of course, zealots will make you believe that everytime a cat is given up over a baby, that it could just have taken a little bit of this and a little bit of that to keep the cat. If the cat is killed/murdered in the shelter, then so be it. Thousands, perhaps millions of animals are killed everyday anyway, cats included. Get real.
Agua Girl - 20 Dec 2003 09:57 GMT > > > I disagree that having a new baby is a trivial thing. For cat lover > > > zealots here who don't have human children, do you treat having a new [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > perhaps millions of animals are killed everyday anyway, cats included. > Get real. Reality bites :-) Just because something is "real" doesn't make it ideal... and certainly doesn't mean it can't change. Yes, thousands of animals are killed every day ...unnecessarily. As a civilized people there are things we can do to change that. We can spay and neuter our pets unless we are conscientious breeders. We can honor our commitments to our pets by providing a home for the life of the animal. And if for some reason we can not live up to that commitment we can take it upon ourselves to find it another loving home. I know people live on the edge but I shudder to think about someone who would have to choose between feeding a new baby and feeding a cat. Sounds like someone who isn't going to be able to afford to take care of the child properly. Cats are not expensive to feed (unless you have 9 ) BTW...do you distinguish between a "zealot" and an animal lover? I wouldn't swerve into a park bench full of kids to avoid hitting a cat..but I would mourn hitting that cat as if it were a living being...ohh wait...that's right, it is. There is nothing wrong in caring for life even if that life is just a cats.
AG
Tracy - 20 Dec 2003 17:53 GMT > > Well, it's not that simple. Suppose I have a cat. Now a baby arrives. > > I can't afford to feed and care for both. Wow. Average cost of feeding one cat is maybe $15 a week. You telling me that you're gonna bring a human life into this world and try to take care of it for 18 years when you can't spare bus fare for a week?
> In some cases, it takes much more than just a little bit of thought and a > little bit of effort. It takes a little bit of thought and a little bit of effort to take care of both human children and cats. You shouldn't do either if you're not going to put any thought or effort into it.
Ray Ban - 20 Dec 2003 18:55 GMT > > twrl2001@yahoo.com (Tracy) wrote in message > news:<77b975cf.0312191844.19832b99@posting.google.com>... [quoted text clipped - 45 lines] > > AG Everything is cheap or expensive, depending on your situation. Let's see: a can of high quality cat food is about 80-90 cents where I live. Twice a day that's $1.70 on the average -- around $50/month. Just for food. Treats are extra. Some cats have ongoing problems so they need prescriptions. Toys. Vet visits. It could add up. You could easily spend $100/month average on a single cat. I'm sure a lot of people spend more than that on their cats. For some people that's not cheap. And you can minimize expenses by feeding your cat junk food (e.g., Friskies, 9-Lives), cut down on treats and vet visits, cut down on medicine and just let it suffer a bit some days (anyway, they're good at hiding pain).
Just deal with it. We don't live in an ideal world. We will alays murder cats, dogs, cows, pigs, lamb, people, unborn human children everyday. We will never be able to have all the money to pay vets so they can alter each and every cat that have to be altered. In the end, it's all about money. You can yap about it all day long if you want, but without money, nothing is going to get done.
Tracy - 21 Dec 2003 02:23 GMT > Everything is cheap or expensive, depending on your situation. Let's > see: a can of high quality cat food is about 80-90 cents where I live. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > medicine and just let it suffer a bit some days (anyway, they're good > at hiding pain). Let's see ... indeed. My take on it: If it's a question of abandoning an older cat to a kill-shelter situation (and I volunteer at a no-kill and frankly, if a cat is over a year and a half old, it generally will take a month or more to find an adoptive home - some are there for several months - it's only the kittens that are easily placed), then I could care less if someone feeds it Friskies or 9-lives for it's entire existence. Kids grow up on crap too - in poor families. Love is more important than organic produce.
Treats? Sure it's nice, but it isn't necessary for existence.
Toys? After buying all sorts of contraptions, I now understand that my two cats far prefer milk rings to anything else - and they're FREE. And a wood shelf bolted by a window with an old sweater on it IS a cat perch.
Vet visits? Low-cost vet clinics are very present in most communities and most cats really don't require anything more than a few booster shots from time to time. I suppose some cats do develop complicated medical situations, but not most and not all of the time.
Of course, it's nice to coddle both cats and children if you can afford to do it, but if you can't, love and caring and emotional generosity go a long way.
Ray Ban - 21 Dec 2003 07:14 GMT > > Everything is cheap or expensive, depending on your situation. Let's > > see: a can of high quality cat food is about 80-90 cents where I live. [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > afford to do it, but if you can't, love and caring and emotional > generosity go a long way. So your take on it is that it's impossible for anyone not to be able to afford raising children and cats. We'll just have to disagree. I guess you'd prefer to feed both your children and cats crap. While I would prefer to feed my children, and if possible my cats, high quality food. Yes, fresh vegetables and fruits are more expensive than a happy meal, but I would want my children to haev fresh fruit and vegetables. I also would want to be able to pay for medical insurance should my children need medical care. Anyway, we'll just have to disagree at this point.
Tracy - 22 Dec 2003 18:41 GMT > I guess you'd prefer to feed both your children and cats crap. While I > would prefer to feed my children, and if possible my cats, high [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > should my children need medical care. Anyway, we'll just have to > disagree at this point. Are you being accidentally obtuse or doing this on purpose?
Of course, I don't prefer to feed my two cats junk (and I don't). But what is this "death before Friskies" cry? You really think that if someone is so unfortunate as to genuinely need the $20/month difference between good and bad food for a while, they should think, "oh no, what horror - much better to tear the cat from it's home, put it through the terror and trauma of being locked in a cage, and then a trip to the gas chamber - rather than having one morsel of that junk hit it's precious lips".
At the point that thought goes through one's head, it is probably best to see a psychiatrist.
And not that it matters much, but here where I live, fresh fruits and vegetables from a Farmer's Market are much cheaper than Happy Meals and health insurance is available to all young children from the state at very low-cost throught the Healthy Families Program.
Ray Ban - 29 Dec 2003 18:51 GMT > > I guess you'd prefer to feed both your children and cats crap. While I > > would prefer to feed my children, and if possible my cats, high [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > trip to the gas chamber - rather than having one morsel of that junk > hit it's precious lips". Actually, the difference in crap food (.30/can) and premium food (.90/can) is about $40/month FOR EACH CAT. Yes, better they go to other homes where they can get good food rather than poison/crap food. As Sting said, if you love somebody, set them free. Don't try to keep them for your own selfish reasons at the expense of their health.
> At the point that thought goes through one's head, it is probably best > to see a psychiatrist. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and health insurance is available to all young children from the state > at very low-cost throught the Healthy Families Program. There are no cheap farmer's market and cheap insurance where I live. Please do us a favor and tell us where you live.
M.C. Mullen - 30 Dec 2003 05:29 GMT | > Of course, I don't prefer to feed my two cats junk (and I don't). But | > what is this "death before Friskies" cry? You really think that if [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] | As Sting said, if you love somebody, set them free. Don't try to keep | them for your own selfish reasons at the expense of their health. My vet says - and he is a capacity around here - that as far as wet food is concerned it doesn't matter what you feed. I myself have noticed that a lot of tinned cat food contains sugar and I try and avoid that. (Of course cat likes the sugary ones better...) But with dry food there *is* a difference, and it matters what we feed the pets.
Carola
Sherry - 30 Dec 2003 18:38 GMT >My vet says - and he is a capacity around here - that as far as wet food is >concerned it doesn't matter what you feed. I myself have noticed that a lot [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Carola I'd have to disagree with your vet, though I'm no expert. But it just stands to reason, for me anyway, that there's a difference in the ultra-cheap canned food. It just stinks way too bad. (Although our cats probably appreciate this as "aromatic".)
Sherry
Tracy - 31 Dec 2003 09:01 GMT "There are no cheap farmer's market and cheap insurance where I live. Please do us a favor and tell us where you live".
Northern California. Wonderful, inexpensive produce year-round and Healthy Families insurance coverage for young children. Great place to live.
M.C. Mullen - 21 Dec 2003 14:53 GMT | Everything is cheap or expensive, depending on your situation. Let's | see: a can of high quality cat food is about 80-90 cents where I live. | Twice a day that's $1.70 on the average -- around $50/month. Just for | food. Treats are extra. Some cats have ongoing problems so they need | prescriptions. Toys. Vet visits. It could add up. You could easily | spend $100/month average on a single cat. I don't even spend that in a year and the cat is being looked after well... I mix premium food and good quality supermarket food half and half. The cat cushion I sewed myself from leftover material. With 8$ a month I can even buy some treats. (Vet visits are excluded.)
Carola
Ray Ban - 22 Dec 2003 19:46 GMT > | Everything is cheap or expensive, depending on your situation. Let's > | see: a can of high quality cat food is about 80-90 cents where I live. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > With 8$ a month I can even buy some treats. > (Vet visits are excluded.) You don't spend $100 a year to care for your cat? I live in the US and there's no way you can spend less. Consider yourself lucky.
tigressnospam@gtf.org - 04 Jan 2004 23:25 GMT In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Ray Ban <ray2003092003@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Everything is cheap or expensive, depending on your situation. Let's > see: a can of high quality cat food is about 80-90 cents where I live. > Twice a day that's $1.70 on the average -- around $50/month. Just for Guess what? I feed my cat's Nutro dry food. Not cheapo food. It costs me at most 30 dollars for *2* months.
Seriously, even with the costs you are saying, if the baby makes your money that tight, you cannot afford the baby. 50 dollars can easily be eaten up if your baby ends up having even a common health problem. Shoot, it probably can easily be taken up just by the added health insurance (if you can even afford it... most are more expensive for one person than 50 dollars a month) the baby will give you.
once again, I state that if you are in the position you hypothosize, you should have had some forethought and used birth control!
Alice
 Signature The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev |\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tigressnospam@gtf.org '---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
tigressnospam@gtf.org - 04 Jan 2004 23:27 GMT In rec.pets.cats.health+behav tigressnospam@gtf.org wrote:
> Guess what? I feed my cat's Nutro dry food. Not cheapo food. It costs me er cats, not cat's (that is a quote for two of them).
Aliec
 Signature The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev |\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tigressnospam@gtf.org '---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Ray Ban - 05 Jan 2004 08:02 GMT > In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Ray Ban <ray2003092003@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Everything is cheap or expensive, depending on your situation. Let's [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Guess what? I feed my cat's Nutro dry food. Not cheapo food. It costs me > at most 30 dollars for *2* months. Right. But you can't get cheap WET premium food.
> Seriously, even with the costs you are saying, if the baby makes your > money that tight, you cannot afford the baby. 50 dollars can easily be > eaten up if your baby ends up having even a common health problem. Shoot, > it probably can easily be taken up just by the added health insurance (if > you can even afford it... most are more expensive for one person than 50 > dollars a month) the baby will give you. For some people, the arrival of a baby brings about many changes such as "belt-tightening" in many places, including getting rid of a cat or cats.
> once again, I state that if you are in the position you hypothosize, you > should have had some forethought and used birth control! > > Alice Why? So I could keep the cat? If the only way I could have a child is to dump the cat, then so be it.
M.C. Mullen - 05 Jan 2004 12:00 GMT | > > see: a can of high quality cat food is about 80-90 cents where I live. | > > Twice a day that's $1.70 on the average -- around $50/month. Just for [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] | as "belt-tightening" in many places, including getting rid of a cat or | cats. There must be a spelling mistake - it's: car or cars :-)
Carola
Linda Terrell - 05 Jan 2004 13:39 GMT > Why? So I could keep the cat? If the only way I could have a child is > to dump the cat, then so be it. Then why take in an animal and NOT commit to it? The animal has bvonded with you by now. Has committed to YOU, but now you think it's fine to just dump it.
I think that is cruel.
Cats don't need wet food. Feed it Meow mix if you have to. It'll survive on that until you're financially better off.
LT
Ray Ban - 05 Jan 2004 19:59 GMT > > Why? So I could keep the cat? If the only way I could have a child is > > to dump the cat, then so be it. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > committed to YOU, but now you think it's fine to > just dump it. In my hypothetical situation, the cat came first.
> I think that is cruel. I think not.
> Cats don't need wet food. Feed it Meow mix if you have to. > It'll survive on that until you're financially better off. I don't want the cat to just survive.
tigressnospam@gtf.org - 05 Jan 2004 16:43 GMT In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Ray Ban <ray2003092003@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Right. But you can't get cheap WET premium food. And if worse comes to worse, you don't have to feed it. And, yes, I know it's hypothecial situation, but it's a stupid one and I was pointing out why I'd still have no sympathy for you if you found out that you were having a baby and that left you no money for a cat.
> For some people, the arrival of a baby brings about many changes such > as "belt-tightening" in many places, including getting rid of a cat or > cats. And they shouldn't have had a baby then! They shoudl have used birth control until they didn't have to do such tight belt tightening. Sorry, but that's the truth. Just cuase they were irresponsible (to both cat and kid) dosen't mean I'm going to sympathize with them.
> Why? So I could keep the cat? If the only way I could have a child is > to dump the cat, then so be it. Because as I said, if having the baby meant you had so litlte money you had to get rid of the cat, then you really couldn't have afforded the baby anyways! Getting rid of the cat isn't even going to give you enough money for the health insurance. And forget getting any medical care if you couldn't afford the health insurance. Even a dr's exam is expensive (90 dollars just for a sick exam at the place near me and for a full checkup, it can run in the hundreds). I know, I'm without health insurance.
Alice
 Signature The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev |\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tigressnospam@gtf.org '---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Ray Ban - 06 Jan 2004 14:42 GMT > In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Ray Ban <ray2003092003@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Right. But you can't get cheap WET premium food. [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Alice If the only way to be able to afford having the baby is to get rid of the cat, then it's perfectly OK to get rid of the cat. That's my opinion because a cat no matter what is just an animal.
Barb - 06 Jan 2004 17:17 GMT No one should have a baby if they can't afford it. (With their own, not tax-payer money.) You are quite right. I didn't see the start of this thread but what I have seen makes me wonder...if you can't afford to keep your cat because you have a baby, what happens if you have another baby? Do you get rid of the first baby?
-- Barb I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
Ray Ban - 06 Jan 2004 22:38 GMT > No one should have a baby if they can't afford it. (With their own, not > tax-payer money.) You are quite right. I didn't see the start of this > thread but what I have seen makes me wonder...if you can't afford to keep > your cat because you have a baby, what happens if you have another baby? Do > you get rid of the first baby? No, you get rid of your spouse :-> I don't know how the best way to handle this situation because I've never been in this situation. I suppose you can: - borrow money from relatives, friends, credit card companies, home equity loan, etc. - get a grant from the government -- i.e., get money that other tax-payers worked for - etc.
Again, my position is I'd do infinitely more for my child/ren than for my cat/s.
tigressnospam@gtf.org - 04 Jan 2004 23:22 GMT In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Ray Ban <ray2003092003@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Well, it's not that simple. Suppose I have a cat. Now a baby arrives. > I can't afford to feed and care for both. Who should go? In some > cases, it takes much more than just a little bit of thought and a If you were that tight on money, why the hell did you have a baby in the first place?!!!!! Honestly... if having a baby makes it so you can't even afford to feed the cat, you really don't have enough money to have the baby anyways beccause you don't have enough money for even the slightest thing to go wrong. Babies (and health problems and whatnot) are a lot more expensive than a cat.
I'd say if you were int hat position, you werne't a responsible person and I feel sorry for both baby and cat that they were in such an irresponsible person's care that they couldn't wait until they truly could afford the baby.
Alice
 Signature The root cause of problems is simple overpopulation. People just aren't worth very much any more, and they know it. Makes 'em testy. ...Bev |\ _,,,---,,_ Tigress /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,_ http://havoc.gtf.gatech.edu/tigress |,4- ) )-,_..;\ ( `'-' tigressnospam@gtf.org '---''(_/--' `-'\_) Cat by Felix Lee.
Ray Ban - 05 Jan 2004 07:55 GMT > In rec.pets.cats.health+behav Ray Ban <ray2003092003@yahoo.com> wrote: > > Well, it's not that simple. Suppose I have a cat. Now a baby arrives. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Alice Alice, if you followed the thread, I stated clearly that it was a hypothetical situation.
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