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Old George and Raw Food

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Marek Williams - 05 Nov 2003 06:37 GMT
I started Old George on canned Friskies, always the Senior or Special
Diet kinds. After reading in here about raw food, it occurred to me to
give it a try. Turns out he loves raw chicken and raw turkey,
especially the chicken. He also likes raw hamburger, but that's a bit
expensive. He seems to prefer the raw food over the canned food.

I can get ground raw turkey for about 98 cents a lb. I buy boneless,
skinless chicken thighs for myself for about $1.33 a lb. The canned
food was costing me about 30-35 cents a can, containing 5.5 ounces.
Doing a little math, the canned food was costing me about a dollar a
lb. In other words, the raw stuff isn't really much more expensive.

I have a couple questions --

1) If I feed him nothing but raw meat, is there anything else he needs
in his diet? I mean, this is what he was engineered to eat, so I
assume it has all the nutrients his furry little body needs, right?

2) Can anyone suggest other cheap meats besides chicken and turkey?

3) Considering that I watched him eat a mouse the other day, evidently
he likes them. Anyone know if there are any butchers where they sell
mouse? Safeway doesn't seem to carry it.

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.
Dennis Carr - 05 Nov 2003 06:42 GMT
> 2) Can anyone suggest other cheap meats besides chicken and turkey?

Chicken liver comes to mind.

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Dennis Carr - ke6isf@spamcop.net    | I may be out of my mind,
http://www.dennis.furtopia.org      | But I have more fun that way.
------------------------------------+-------------------------------

Ted Davis - 05 Nov 2003 13:35 GMT
>I started Old George on canned Friskies, always the Senior or Special
>Diet kinds. After reading in here about raw food, it occurred to me to
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>he likes them. Anyone know if there are any butchers where they sell
>mouse? Safeway doesn't seem to carry it.

Muscle meat is highly incomplete nutrition.  At a minimum, there
should be organ meat and some vegeatable supplements.  Natural cat
food is entire mouse, offal and last meal included.

T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu)
SPAM filter: Messages to this address *must* contain "T.E.D."
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Jon C - 05 Nov 2003 17:31 GMT
> 1) If I feed him nothing but raw meat, is there anything else he needs
> in his diet? I mean, this is what he was engineered to eat, so I
> assume it has all the nutrients his furry little body needs, right?

Wrong.  That's not what he was engineered to eat.  Cats do not eat the
muscles of an animal and then leave it.  There are an a.s ton of nutrients
in the heart, liver, intestines, stomach, etc of the animal.  That's what
kitty was designed to eat.
Marek Williams - 08 Nov 2003 05:05 GMT
>> 1) If I feed him nothing but raw meat, is there anything else he needs
>> in his diet? I mean, this is what he was engineered to eat, so I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>in the heart, liver, intestines, stomach, etc of the animal.  That's what
>kitty was designed to eat.

OK, so I need to get some chicken and turkey insides, too, right?

Seems to me I remember when my mother got a whole bird to roast she
always pulled a bunch of junk out of it. I think I've seen that stuff
in the meat department. I have to go by the Safeway tomorrow. I'll
stop and see if they have chicken or turkey guts.

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.
Dee - 08 Nov 2003 06:10 GMT
> >Wrong.  That's not what he was engineered to eat.  Cats do not eat the
> >muscles of an animal and then leave it.  There are an a.s ton of nutrients
> >in the heart, liver, intestines, stomach, etc of the animal.  That's what
> >kitty was designed to eat.

lol ..."a.s ton"

> OK, so I need to get some chicken and turkey insides, too, right?
>
> Seems to me I remember when my mother got a whole bird to roast she
> always pulled a bunch of junk out of it. I think I've seen that stuff
> in the meat department. I have to go by the Safeway tomorrow. I'll
> stop and see if they have chicken or turkey guts.

You should check on the web for some raw food recipes, there will be alot
of things that you could/should add.  Wheat or barley grass, liquid
concentrace, plain ole vitamin C, vitamin E, and Missing Link are a few
good things that I like to add.  You might want to mix it up with a good
quality all natural canned food.

Dee
Jon C - 08 Nov 2003 17:38 GMT
> >> 1) If I feed him nothing but raw meat, is there anything else he needs
> >> in his diet? I mean, this is what he was engineered to eat, so I
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> in the meat department. I have to go by the Safeway tomorrow. I'll
> stop and see if they have chicken or turkey guts.

Do you honestly just not get it, or are you trying to be stupid?
Joe Canuck - 05 Nov 2003 21:56 GMT
> I started Old George on canned Friskies, always the Senior or Special
> Diet kinds. After reading in here about raw food, it occurred to me to
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> --
> Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.

I won't get into the raw diet bashing here... but this point needs to be
raised:

Unless you have the raw diet you are providing analysed by laboratory
just how do you know your cat is getting all the recommended minimum
levels of nutrients as set out by AAFCO?

Those nutrients at those minimum levels are ESSENTIAL for feline life to
exist in a healthy manner.

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"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

Alison Perera - 06 Nov 2003 13:31 GMT
> I won't get into the raw diet bashing here... but this point needs to be
> raised:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Those nutrients at those minimum levels are ESSENTIAL for feline life to
> exist in a healthy manner.

Thank G*d humans came along when they did, or Felis sylvestris would
have continued to hobble along, a species doomed to failure without the
AAFCO to tell them what nutrients to consume.

My only thought is to pity the carnivores still confined to life in the
wild, getting along day to day without even a rough sketch of what kind
of protein % they should be getting, let alone an accurate Ca:P ratio.

I think we should liberate them all, sacrifice enough to obtain a nice
sample size, and study their carcasses to learn their physiology and
develop a precisely accurate table of nutrients for each species. Then
Mazuri can develop a complete and balanced diet, and they can all live
happily ever after.

Who's with me?

-Alison in OH
Ted Davis - 06 Nov 2003 13:50 GMT
>> I won't get into the raw diet bashing here... but this point needs to be
>> raised:
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
>Who's with me?

Nobody with any sense and an understanding of the differences between
wild animals and pets: wild animals are free to seek out supplemental
foods and minerals while pets have fewer opportunities and options -
indoor pets have essentially none.

T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu)
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Victor Martinez - 06 Nov 2003 14:00 GMT
> Nobody with any sense and an understanding of the differences between
> wild animals and pets: wild animals are free to seek out supplemental
> foods and minerals while pets have fewer opportunities and options -
> indoor pets have essentially none.

A lot of people also seem to miss the fact that "wild" cats live
significantly shorter lives than pet cats do. I bet nutrition has a lot
to do with it.

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Karen M. - 06 Nov 2003 18:06 GMT
I'd say predators and disease. Most don't get old enough to even *think*
of potential diabetes or CRF or arthritis, etc....

>> Nobody with any sense and an understanding of the differences between
>> wild animals and pets: wild animals are free to seek out supplemental
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> significantly shorter lives than pet cats do. I bet nutrition has a lot
> to do with it.
Joe Canuck - 06 Nov 2003 14:38 GMT
>>I won't get into the raw diet bashing here... but this point needs to be
>>raised:
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> have continued to hobble along, a species doomed to failure without the
> AAFCO to tell them what nutrients to consume.

Because of human "interference" the domestic cat is now living longer
than ever before in history.

Come to think of it, so are humans who no longer roam around with a big
stick looking for food.

> My only thought is to pity the carnivores still confined to life in the
> wild, getting along day to day without even a rough sketch of what kind
> of protein % they should be getting, let alone an accurate Ca:P ratio.

Wild animal vs domestic animal?  Thats comparing apples with oranges.

> I think we should liberate them all, sacrifice enough to obtain a nice
> sample size, and study their carcasses to learn their physiology and
> develop a precisely accurate table of nutrients for each species. Then
> Mazuri can develop a complete and balanced diet, and they can all live
> happily ever after.

As I said before, I won't get into a bashing of the raw diet. Every diet
has it's merits. Every owner or cat staff member has to decide for
themselves what they are happy with and more importantly what their cats
will be happy and healthy with.

My only point is that short of laboratory analysis I don't know how one
can ensure a homemade diet contains all the nutrients a feline requires.

Can you shed some light on that?

Signature

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

onebyone - 08 Nov 2003 05:30 GMT
Yes, you absolutely will need to add other things to the raw meat, in order
to make sure that George is getting all the vitamins and minerals that he
needs. Very shortly you will see him acting like a kitten again, on the raw
diet. Here are complete directions;
http://www.catfood.catnutrition.org/

> I started Old George on canned Friskies, always the Senior or Special
> Diet kinds. After reading in here about raw food, it occurred to me to
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> --
> Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.
Robert Casey - 09 Nov 2003 01:38 GMT
>Yes, you absolutely will need to add other things to the raw meat, in order
>to make sure that George is getting all the vitamins and minerals that he
>needs.

Alternate the raw food with canned cat food often, that way he won't
miss out
on the stuff not in the raw muscle meat.
Joe Canuck - 09 Nov 2003 02:41 GMT
> Yes, you absolutely will need to add other things to the raw meat, in order
> to make sure that George is getting all the vitamins and minerals that he
> needs. Very shortly you will see him acting like a kitten again, on the raw
> diet. Here are complete directions;
> http://www.catfood.catnutrition.org/

Someone has certainly put a lot of work into creating that site. That
domain of that site is owned by Anne Jablonski. From browsing it, I
don't see any qualifications mentioned. So I assume all this advice she
is offering is from her own research through the Internet or library.

The instructions at the site suggest grinding up whole chicken thighs /
drumsticks including the bone portion. Since when do cats consume *that*
much bone, there is way more bone material in one chicken thigh or
drumstick than 1 mouse.

Signature

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

Cheryl - 10 Nov 2003 03:39 GMT
>> Yes, you absolutely will need to add other things to the raw meat,
>> in order to make sure that George is getting all the vitamins and
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> chicken thigh or
> drumstick than 1 mouse.

She is extremely qualified.  Subscribe to felineIBD on Yahoo! and
you'll know.
Joe Canuck - 10 Nov 2003 06:13 GMT
>>>Yes, you absolutely will need to add other things to the raw meat,
>>>in order to make sure that George is getting all the vitamins and
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> She is extremely qualified.  Subscribe to felineIBD on Yahoo! and
> you'll know.

Ok, thank you.

Signature

"Its the bugs that keep it running."
                                     -Joe Canuck

Marek Williams - 11 Nov 2003 07:48 GMT
Thanks to all who responded. Several made points that seem logical and
I have added them to my own thoughts, e.g., not feeding just muscle
meat but organs as well. I was going to stop by the Safeway the other
day but that hasn't happened yet. When I do go I intend to look for
chicken and turkey guts.

As for analyzing his diet, forget that. As one person mentioned, she
has never had her own diet analyzed and she felt she was doing fine.
Ditto for me. Of course, we have to realize that we humans are able to
open refrigerator and freezer doors to select what we feel like
eating, and we have a vast variety available to us. Old George won't
have as many choices, so I have to spend a bit more time feeding him
stuff that is good for him. At the same time, I don't intend to be a
nut about it. He probably doesn't have a year left to live, even if he
gets the very best possible nutrition. He's old, arthritic and
approaching the end of his life. I know that. He has never had a home
and I just wanted him to have a real place with someone to take care
of him for what time he has left. Right now it's cold out and he's
curled up in a chair by the fire. His arthritis is so bad that he has
a hard time laying down on his side, probably from years being
outdoors all winter long. At least now he can be comfortable.

I do more or less follow the logic of what an animal would eat in the
wild. Nevertheless, that isn't necessarily what is good for them. For
example, our human taste buds respond very well to sweets, fats and
salt. That is because during our evolution those were hard to come by
and having a desire for them was a positive survival point. In today's
world we have to use our intellect to curb our desire for those
things, as they can be fatal if consumed in the quantities our taste
buds want.

In addition, we humans develop eating habits, starting even in
childhood. If we develop bad habits as a child we can have serious
issues as we age. Old George has a similar problem. Frankly, he
prefers french fries and canned chili to cat food. He wants to eat
human food. That's because all his life he has survived on handouts
and what he could find in open garbage cans. That's what he thinks
food is supposed to taste like. He has horrible eating habits. He's
not going to get garbage like that from me, but I have to deal with
the fact that he frequently turns up his nose at food that is good for
him. And he's so skinny that if he likes chicken muscle meat and he'll
eat a lot of it, I'd sooner let him have it than try to force him to
eat something he doesn't like just because it's better for him.

So thanks for the suggestions. Some of you have given me some ideas
that will help.

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.
Mary - 11 Nov 2003 18:16 GMT
>He's old, arthritic and
> approaching the end of his life. I know that. He has never had a home
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a hard time laying down on his side, probably from years being
> outdoors all winter long. At least now he can be comfortable.

Bless you. I wish there were more people like you.
M.C. Mullen - 11 Nov 2003 18:30 GMT
| Frankly, he
| prefers french fries and canned chili to cat food. He wants to eat
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
| So thanks for the suggestions. Some of you have given me some ideas
| that will help.

I'm not against raw food at all, but what puts you off feeding him some high
quality wet or dry cat food which has ingredients to help him with his
arthritis?
Or what about combining raw food and cat food?
We got a dog from a shelter. She had been fed leftovers all her life. She
was fat and her coat was in poor condition. Our vet gave us some high
quality food for her (Technie Cal), and the coat became really shiny.

Carola
Marek Williams - 16 Nov 2003 05:32 GMT
>I'm not against raw food at all, but what puts you off feeding him some high
>quality wet or dry cat food which has ingredients to help him with his
>arthritis?
>Or what about combining raw food and cat food?

Actually, combining raw with canned (supermarket, always "senior" or
"special diet") is more or less what I am falling into. Figuring out
what to feed him is a work in progress still. I did finally get some
chicken guts. Livers, hearts, gizzards and stuff.

It's very difficult to feed him "correctly." I don't have very good
control. For example, he has been out all day, and for the past 24
hours he has eaten practically nothing at my house. That means he is
out panhandling again. I feel like a parent trying to get a teenager
to eat a balanced diet. Sometimes you just have to settle for what you
can do and stop worrying about perfection.

But do tell me more about "ingredients to help him with his
arthritis." I pointed out the arthritis to his vet and asked if there
was anything I could do. She said there wasn't really a lot except
pain pills, and that some seemed to benefit from glucosamine and
chondroitin. I know the latter are kind of hit or miss. I have a touch
of arthritis myself, but they did nothing at all for me. My neighbor,
on the other hand, says they really help. And the vet didn't really
say anything about dosage -- I assume if he weighs 1/20 as much as a
human, then 1/20 the usual human dose would be appropriate, but I
don't know if that is accurate. Of course, even if I figure out a
medication regime, getting it into him is another matter.

When my son left for the university I thought the parenthood chapter
of my life was finished. Hah!

--
Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.
Karen - 16 Nov 2003 05:58 GMT
>> I'm not against raw food at all, but what puts you off feeding him some high
>> quality wet or dry cat food which has ingredients to help him with his
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> --
> Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here.

Pearl has bad arthritis in her left knee. She used to walk around shaking it
quite a bit. While I can tell it is still not great, after several months of
Cosequin, she rarely does this anymore, so it must be helping. It's pretty
cheap. I just open the capsule and sprinkle it on her food.

Karen
M.C. Mullen - 16 Nov 2003 16:10 GMT
| >I'm not against raw food at all, but what puts you off feeding him some high
| >quality wet or dry cat food which has ingredients to help him with his
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
| to eat a balanced diet. Sometimes you just have to settle for what you
| can do and stop worrying about perfection.

I know. It took me nearly a year to find the 'perfect' diet for the cat
(good quality, good ingredients, tasty).
Now we have a new cat, and I can start all over again because he doesn't
like the stuff I feed him.

| But do tell me more about "ingredients to help him with his
| arthritis."

From what I know about Arthritis you cannot cure it with food, only
medication can. But you can prevent it from getting worse:
Avoiding overweight with senior or light stuff, getting good quality stuff
and - that's important - stuff that the cat loves in order to stop him from
going out for his meals. Oh, and give him a gentle massage from time to
time...

I pointed out the arthritis to his vet and asked if there
| was anything I could do. She said there wasn't really a lot except
| pain pills, and that some seemed to benefit from glucosamine and
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
| don't know if that is accurate. Of course, even if I figure out a
| medication regime, getting it into him is another matter.

You might as well try it out.

| When my son left for the university I thought the parenthood chapter
| of my life was finished. Hah!

18 year old daughter asked me what I wanted a cat for. I replied that I need
*someone* to bother me when she leaves ;-)

Carola
Robert Casey - 18 Nov 2003 01:57 GMT
>It's very difficult to feed him "correctly." I don't have very good
>control. For example, he has been out all day, and for the past 24
>hours he has eaten practically nothing at my house. That means he is
>out panhandling again.

With all that effort and love you've invested in Old George, I wouldn't
let him outside.
Though that may not be a realistic option.  I hope that you're not near any
busy roads or other hazards to cats where you live (IIRC you said that
you're
not).  Anyway, he wouldn't be a cat if he were not finicky.....

It's a great thing you're doing for this cat!
 
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