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Cat Forum / General Topics / October 2004Join PetRights.org
PetRights.org is a non-profit San Diego, CA, based organization that advocates compassionate alternatives to spaying and neutering. We are not connected to any businesses that provide products or services for animals or pets. While we recognize that stray animal overpopulation is a legitimate concern, we do not believe that it is in the best interests of pets to have their reproductive organs amputated simply because it is convenient for their human guardians. Position Statements 1. PetRights.org does not support local laws requiring spaying and neutering of pets to control overpopulation. 2. PetRights.org does not support the positions held by some animal rights groups that spaying and neutering is a humane way to prevent pet overpopulation. We also believe that it is unethical to try to control pet behavior by amputating their reproductive organs. 3. PetRights.org is opposed to other forms of pet mutilation such as declawing, debarking, ear cropping, and tail docking, and we also oppose the "euthanization" (killing) of unwanted pets that occurs in animal shelters because of lack of space and funding. 4. PetRights.org supports laws protecting household pets that would forbid spaying, neutering, declawing, debarking, ear cropping, tail docking, and other forms of mutilation, except in cases of medical necessity. We also support "no kill" laws for animal shelters, along with increased funding to provide additional space and recreational opportunities in those shelters, and to build new ones. 5. As compassionate and practical alternatives to spaying and neutering, and until better and safer methods become available, PetRights.org does not object to tubal ligation and vasectomy for purposes of controlling pet overpopulation. Further, we call on drug companies to develop pet versions of implantable, injectable, and oral contraceptives so that tubal ligation and vasectomy may someday become unnecessary. >5. As compassionate and practical alternatives to spaying and neutering, and >until better and safer methods become available, PetRights.org does not >object to tubal ligation and vasectomy for purposes of controlling pet >overpopulation. Further, we call on drug companies to develop pet versions >of implantable, injectable, and oral contraceptives so that tubal ligation >and vasectomy may someday become unnecessary. So let me get this straight. You're group opposes spaying and neutering but you have no objection to tubal ligation and vasectomy. Isn't that a tad contradictory? <buncha stuff most of which I agree with wholeheartedly, but...> In a perfect world, Mother Nature would realize that pet cats are in abundance and the females would stop having cycles and/or the males would stop being quite so testosterone-hopped. In reality it doesn't work quite that way and pet shelters are usually crowded. Without spaying/neutering they'd become even more so (obviously). I like the idea of tubal-ligation/whatever, but that might be for more "serious" pet-owners than I; it takes time to train an intact male not to spray (and he will anyways if he gets upset), and a female in heat is *not* an indoors-only cat by any means. (I know this from experience). Glad to hear all your kittens have found homes. If I may be so bold though, you'll probably want to get her fixed (in some manner or another) before you run out of friends/relatives who will make good cat owners and before having so many litters close together runs your queen ragged. (Also from experience) pat rpl wrote in message ... ><buncha stuff most of which I agree with wholeheartedly, but...> > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >work quite that way and pet shelters are usually crowded. Without >spaying/neutering they'd become even more so (obviously). But it doesn't sound like you have much faith in the cycle of life. I ask you to remember that cats managed to live according to the laws of nature WAY before man even fantasized of the <choke> benefit </choke> of sterilization. Now why is that? >I like the idea of tubal-ligation/whatever, but that might be for more >"serious" pet-owners than I; it takes time to train an intact male not >to spray (and he will anyways if he gets upset), and a female in heat is >*not* an indoors-only cat by any means. (I know this from experience). So do I. And that's part of the problem with psuedo cat owners. I call them "psuedo" because by the time their vet gets done with the cats - they're not cats at all! They are rather - some man-made manipulation of a breathing furry thing. Personally, I do *not* believe in any surgery what-so-ever. If humans are too lazy to train a male, or secure an area for a female in heat, they have no business WITH a cat! All of this "cat manipulation" is done for no other benefit than the human's laziness and convenience. Surely you will agree that some cats don't even WANT an owner... But how do you explain that to the fat retard running to the vet because the cat won't let her pet him? How do you get through to these overgrown apes that cats do not need to be pumped up with drugs because the damn things want to pee wherever the hell it wants! Something is wrong with the cat?!? Something is wrong with an animal that does what it was naturally born to do????? Disgusting! >Glad to hear all your kittens have found homes. If I may be so bold >though, you'll probably want to get her fixed (in some manner or >another) before you run out of friends/relatives who will make good cat >owners and before having so many litters close together runs your queen >ragged. (Also from experience) I'd like to hear more about a queen becoming "ragged." >pat > rpl wrote in message ... >> In reality it doesn't >>work quite that way and pet shelters are usually crowded. Without >>spaying/neutering they'd become even more so (obviously). > > But it doesn't sound like you have much faith in the cycle of life. I ask > you to remember that cats managed to live according to the laws of nature You seem to be confused as to the subject matter; the '.cats' in the newsgroup titles refer to *domestic* cats, ie: the furry parasite/symbiote found in some households; these have been outbred from several real wild cat species by circumstance over the last 10,000 years or so to co-exist with humans; the "laws of nature" they exist under is quite non-existent or severely warped. My little darlins'd be royally screwed if they had to fend for themselves; the cat species that *does* fit successfully into the environment 'round here can be found by googling for "canadian lynx". Look like a housecat to you ? At the other end of the scale, google for "australia" and "cat"; cats gone feral fit into the ecosystem a little too well down there from what I've heard. > If > humans are too lazy to train a male, or secure an area for a female in heat, > they have no business WITH a cat! You're not going to be able to train them not to mate; best you can do is teach them (males) not to go 'round marking territory all the time, and for females, I'm not entirely sure but I think if you pen them in they'll stay in heat or something like that, which isn't healthy for the cat. > All of this "cat manipulation" is done for > no other benefit than the human's laziness and convenience. That's my opinion on declawing, but if the choice for a prospective cat-owner is taking a previously declawed cat from a shelter or not taking a cat at all, what would you prefer to have happen ? > Surely you will agree that some cats don't even WANT an owner... But how do > you explain that to the fat retard running to the vet because the cat won't > let her pet him? Never heard that one. Couple of mine aren't "pettin' cats" though they're quite social apart from that; maybe they feel grooming is something that should remain a cats-only thing or that being petted is too kittenish behaviour. > How do you get through to these overgrown apes that cats do > not need to be pumped up with drugs because the damn things want to pee > wherever the hell it wants! Something is wrong with the cat?!? The thread that I think you're referring to: "peeing in the bathtub" could even be the cat sees you peeing in the bathroom and decides that that's proper behaviour. In that (and only that) case, your "bleach in the tub" solution would be a viable solution, though moving the litterbox into the bathroom probably a more effective one. But it's just as likely if not moreso that the cat's upset about something and lacking human language skills, that's just him/her working it out and, just like wimmen, it's up to you to figure out what the problem is and rectify it if possible. If the something the cat's upset about is a health issue, vets are usually more qualified to find that out and a trip to the vet for a quick once-over isn't that expensive. <snip> > I'd like to hear more about a queen becoming "ragged." Too many kittens in too little time (5 or 6 litters within a couple of years; and yes, all were homed successfully without having to resort to newspaper adverts even... I got lucky); her health was failing and she wasn't taking care of herself. Retrospectively I'm not entirely sure that, given a choice I would have had her spayed earlier; the kittens all went to heretofore catless homes and hopefully they will all need companions (or sadly, replacements) in upcoming years; that's where the shelters come in. Read this as a reason or a piss-poor excuse whichever way you want, but potential flamers be notified that we've gone over this before. However I'm afraid that's where my experience ends; I have some, but not much experience with intact males and females and their behaviour patterns; perhaps some of the (professional) breeders who post here will share. rpl wrote in message ... >> rpl wrote in message ... > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >or so to co-exist with humans; the "laws of nature" they exist under is >quite non-existent or severely warped. I disagree - and I get a real kick out of seeing the primped and preened cat decorated with shiny light blue ribbons pounce on a mouse! Or catch a bird in mid-air, only to rip it apart and chow down. That's Nature. That's Real. That's Life. **All** cats claw, bite, scratch, kill, eat other animals, and fight each other. >My little darlins'd be royally screwed if they had to fend for >themselves; the cat species that *does* fit successfully into the >environment 'round here can be found by googling for "canadian lynx". >Look like a housecat to you ? Uh... no. But isn't that why it's called a "lynx?" >At the other end of the scale, google for "australia" and "cat"; cats >gone feral fit into the ecosystem a little too well down there from what [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >You're not going to be able to train them not to mate; No - I meant training of the spraying. Personally I've never trained male cats not to spray, and am currently going through such a thing right now. But it's not a problem. A person may as well suggest I take my husband to get his anus cut off cause he stinks up the house with his farts! We simply wash whatever he sprayed, frown and shake our finger at him, then cart him off to the litter box. (The Cat - not the husband!) >best you can do >is teach them (males) not to go 'round marking territory all the time, >and for females, I'm not entirely sure but I think if you pen them in >they'll stay in heat or something like that, which isn't healthy for the >cat. I once had two sister cats who came in heat at the same time. We never let them outside and just "put up" with their hootin' and hollerin. One day - they just shut up! Then months later, they started hootin' and hollerin again. Then one day, they just shut up! One sister was given away - and the other snuck out my window at night - became the "grandma" of our new kittens! The cycle of life took grandma away a while back in the form of a pit bull on the loose. One of those kittens was given away and I kept the remaining two kittens: now 'Momma and Uncle'. >> All of this "cat manipulation" is done for >> no other benefit than the human's laziness and convenience. > >That's my opinion on declawing, but if the choice for a prospective >cat-owner is taking a previously declawed cat from a shelter or not >taking a cat at all, what would you prefer to have happen ? I honestly don't care! I don't **have** to care about that. And my **caring** won't affect the outcome of those sheltered cats one way or another! >> Surely you will agree that some cats don't even WANT an owner... But how do >> you explain that to the fat retard running to the vet because the cat won't >> let her pet him? > >Never heard that one. Sure you have! Vets issue "distemperment shots" to cats of fussy owners who refuse to accept nature. >Couple of mine aren't "pettin' cats" though >they're quite social apart from that; maybe they feel grooming is >something that should remain a cats-only thing or that being petted is >too kittenish behaviour. Well at least you attempt to place your mind into the life of a cat. Kudos to you for doing that. Few do! >> How do you get through to these overgrown apes that cats do >> not need to be pumped up with drugs because the damn things want to pee [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >newspaper adverts even... I got lucky); her health was failing and she >wasn't taking care of herself. Thanks for the warning. Sorry to hear about your "lady." >Retrospectively I'm not entirely sure that, given a choice I would have >had her spayed earlier; the kittens all went to heretofore catless homes [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >patterns; perhaps some of the (professional) breeders who post here will >share. Well I surely thank you and those who have helped me calm down over "Uncle's" sudden involvement with our kittens! I can't help but to be fascinated with them. They make me dizzy with their apparent stupid behavior - and then spurious moments of genius. This male adopting thing has got me jumping with joy! Their newest thing (momma and uncle, that is) "cooing" to each other. But not in a love -way. It has something to do with the kittens. It's like Uncle is telling Momma something about her children - and she'll respond in the same way. After a little of that, they'll go looking for the kittens, sit down in front of them, and then continue their conversation. Man! What the hell are they saying?!?! LOL > rpl wrote in message ... > I disagree - and I get a real kick out of seeing the primped and preened cat > decorated with shiny light blue ribbons pounce on a mouse! Or catch a bird > in mid-air, only to rip it apart and chow down. Does it hurt when you laugh ? > That's Nature. > That's Real. > That's Life. That's Cute. > **All** cats claw, bite, scratch, kill, eat other animals, and fight each > other. So do people. Get over it. <<snip>> > Personally I've never trained male > cats not to spray, and am currently going through such a thing right now. > But it's not a problem. A person may as well suggest I take my husband to > get his anus cut off cause he stinks up the house with his farts! We simply > wash whatever he sprayed, frown and shake our finger at him, then cart him > off to the litter box. (The Cat - not the husband!) :) I had to read that a couple times. In both cases a sharp "NO" when you see a cheek being lifted can stop or distract your "student"... if ignored on a per-incident basis, throwing things can work. Of course if you have a female in heat, your place will smell pretty rank regardless of any behaviour modification you've employed. >>>Surely you will agree that some cats don't even WANT an owner... But how Sure, and intact males tend to wander away regardless. > Sure you have! Vets issue "distemperment shots" to cats of fussy owners who > refuse to accept nature. Might want to read up a little on cat diseases & viruses. You could be thinking of a commercial product that calms cats down; never used it personally though I don't think it has harmful side-effects, unlike human medication of that genre. <snip> >>Couple of mine aren't "pettin' cats" though >>they're quite social apart from that; maybe they feel grooming is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Well at least you attempt to place your mind into the life of a cat. Kudos > to you for doing that. Few do! <shrug> could just as easily be "Ewwwww, hairless-ape cooties... ick, ick, ick" or "stay with your own species, perv!!!"... "I just wanna be friends" or "Hey, you ain't put a diamond on my collar yet!!" <<snip>> >>Too many kittens in too little time (5 or 6 litters within a couple of >>years; and yes, all were homed successfully without having to resort to >>newspaper adverts even... I got lucky); her health was failing and she >>wasn't taking care of herself. > > Thanks for the warning. Sorry to hear about your "lady." Mother nature's a bitch ain't she. <<snip>> > Well I surely thank you and those who have helped me calm down over > "Uncle's" sudden involvement with our kittens! It's not normal cat behaviour that. Most adult cats that I've noticed tend to ward off kittens that aren't their own (or who don't belong to a female that they're interested in). I'm just guessing that the male cat is bored and wants to play with the female (who is busy with her kittens); a babysitter is no substitute for a mother, of course. Maybe he's gay. I hope the cats don't get testicular cancer. You are probably ready to die defending the cats right to get cancer. > How do you get through to these overgrown apes that cats do >not need to be pumped up with drugs because the damn things want to pee >wherever the hell it wants! Something is wrong with the cat?!? Something is >wrong with an animal that does what it was naturally born to do????? Oh, now I get it........you came here to this ng because you're lonely and pissed that none of your friends come over to visit you anymore, on account of your house stinks so bad. Were you born in a barn? -bonbon >> How do you get through to these overgrown apes that cats do >>not need to be pumped up with drugs because the damn things want to pee [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >Were you born in a barn? If you would simply drill a large hole in the side of your head, you'd actually have an excuse for saying the stupid sh.t that you say! <PLONK> > -bonbon > <PLONK> To everyone but the electric idiot: piss EN off enough to plonk you. As soon as they do then kill file them. Shortly EN will be talking to themselves. > PetRights.org is a non-profit San Diego, CA, based organization that ...are a bunch of ignorant morons - here's why: PetRights.org does not > object to tubal ligation and vasectomy for purposes of controlling pet > overpopulation. Wow! You really are one ignorant moron! ROTFL! With either procedure the hormones are *still* produced. When the endometrium is repeatedly exposed to high concentrations of estrogen --> followed by high concentrations of progesterone - without pregnancy - cystic endometrial hyperplasia develops ---> followed by secondary pyometra --> which can lead to septicemia, shock, and *death*. Vasectomized males *still* retain aggressive territorial behavior, *still* spray urine and *still* can develop prostatic adenocarcinomas - which are nasty *malignant tumors* that also cause enlargement of the prostrate gland --> which can cause life-threatening urinary tract blockages. These tumors are particularly nasty because they spread to areas inside the pelvis and even other organs. And, no, there is *no* cure - although neutering might slow the growth of the tumor and might provide some temporary relief. Neutering *prevents* these tumors. Actually, I'm very happy you're posting all this ignorant nonsense! It gives me the opportunity to clear up any misconceptions some people may have. So, thanks, moron! |
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