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Disturbing Incident.

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Kalyahna - 17 Sep 2004 05:00 GMT
This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me.

The short version:
In mid August, at a Menard's store in Marshfield, Wisconsin (pop: 20,000), a
wounded kitten was bludgeoned to death by a store employee at the direction
of his manager, a man named Dave Hoak.

The police have done nothing except say that in future situations, the
ordinance officers should be called. The local news herald took a month to
publish anything at all about this horrible situation and didn't offer
anything better.

The long version:
"In mid August 2004, a store patron saw a bleeding cat lying in the parking
lot at Menards. This person reported to teh service desk that a cat was in
the parking lot, obviously injured. She asked that help be sought for the
frightened animal, and expressed her concern for it. The store manager was
contacted and directed two young male employees to take a lawn edger out to
the parking lot and beat the cat to death. The young men did what they were
told to do by their manager. This extremely violent act was witnessed by
other store patrons moving through the parking lot. One of these patrons
went to the same service desk to report what was happening to the cat and
was told that they were aware of what was going on outside.

A local veterinary office was called about the incident, as was the local
police department. A third person called the manager at Menards to question
him about the incident. The caller was told it was, "just like hunting,
sir." At this time, the manager is still employed by Menards."
-- This from the only eyewitness to come forward.

This is the news herald article that attempts to cover what happened. The
author's contact info is available at the bottom of the screen.
http://www.wisinfo.com/newsherald/mnhlocal/281452133135965.shtml

My sister is the "friend" at Marshfield Veterinary Service. Her response to
his article follows. It is abridged slightly to keep to the topic at hand:
"Mr. Gneiser,

I am deeply disappointed in your article regarding the death of the kitten
in Menard's parking lot.  I'm afraid that from the very beginning of your
article, there are obvious problems with this story.

First, you did not mention that this animal was a kitten and lead readers
to believe that it was an adult cat.

Second, you state repeatedly that this animal was "critically injured".  I
would like to know who is qualified to make that judgment.  Are the
employees at Menard's trained in veterinary medicine? After working over 5
years in the field of veterinary medicine, I have learned a few things about
injury and trauma.  Shock can often set in and cause the animal to go into a
coma-like state. With treatment, shock can often be overcome, and depending
on the extent of other injuries, many animals can recover.  I guess we will
never know the state of that animal because the employee took it upon
himself to make that call.  The police can make no judgment on the extent of
the injury because no one in their department has even seen the animal, even
though they keep saying it was "critically injured". Perhaps you should seek
the opinion of a veterinarian to include in any future stories like this.

Third, you do not mention that what the eye witness, Mrs. Albers, saw varies
from the account given to the police by the Menard's employee.  According to
her, the kitten was struck repeatedly and was flailing it's legs and tail
during the beating. I have a hard time believing this to be "mercy".

Finally, I find some of the comments made by Joe Stroik to be disturbing at
best.  Whether the employee did or did not know about ordinance control is
beside the point.  Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for inappropriate
behavior.  The question over whether the kitten was stray or not should have
nothing to do with how the animal was treated.  Are not all the animals
found running at large considered stray until they are claimed by an owner?
The fact that no owner has come forward now, a month later, has nothing to
do with how that kitten was treated on that day, at that time.  They were
not and could not have been certain that it was a stray at the time that it
was killed.  Whether the kitten would have been euthanized after being
collected by ordinance control is an assumption - again - of the animal
being "critically injured", we have no proof of that being so.

I certainly hope that you will print a follow-up story correcting the false
impression you have left on the public that this was a minor issue being
questioned by a group of crazy animal lovers and that no real crime has been
committed. I also hope that you include the ridiculous and unprofessional
response by Ray at Menard's headquarters when my friend Gina Knetter
informed him of this act being committed."

Ray's response, by the way, was, "This is total bull."

Ray can be reached at guest@menard-inc.com or 1-800-menards.

The chief of police quoted in the article above was spoken to by the eye
witness and informed of many things of which he was unaware... due to the
ineptitude of the officer on the scene. The eye witness writes, "I did talk
with cheif Stroik today.  We actually had a nice talk about it all.  I
voiced my concerns about the fact that there didn't seem to be an official
report and that there were some misrepresentations in the newspaper article.
For one, the kitten was not beaten to death - it was pinned to the ground
with a lawn edger on its neck.  My husband saw the final "push", I couldn't
see anymore because my eyes were so filled with tears!  Cheif Stroik had me
email him my letter to the press and also describe in detail what I saw &
how officer Rice handled the situation.  He was actually surprised at what I
had to say - Officer Rice never put my name in the report and also she
didn't file it right away either.  I think that after talking with me & once
he reads all the facts I typed for him, he will have a different view on the
whole situation.  I did ask him if he tried to get the surveillance tapes
for the parking lot (which I am sure Menards would have or DID have).  He
said no, but he would look into it. cross your fingers!"

The local news has been informed of the incident, and it sounds as though
the local CBS affiliate will be running a story on it sometime this next
week. After that airs (if it does, let's hope so), there may be more public
outcry, but we can always use a few extra phone calls or e-mails to let
Menards know that such things are not acceptable and ARE in fact, a
violation of law (my sister has contacted the animal legal defense fund and
they've verified that it was illegal).

For those of you that have waded through all of this, thank you for your
time.

For those of you that call or write to express your anger and disgust, thank
you VERY much.

~K
Karen Chuplis - 17 Sep 2004 05:16 GMT
> This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me.

I invite you all to contact Menards:

http://www.menards.com/menards?mm_dest=%2Fcontactus.jsp

I have, I assure you.
Jodie - 17 Sep 2004 05:57 GMT
> I invite you all to contact Menards:
>
> http://www.menards.com/menards?mm_dest=%2Fcontactus.jsp
>
> I have, I assure you.

Thank you, so have I.  I am appalled by the whole thing.  I let them know I
am up here in Canada, and the story is making the rounds here!
CatNipped - 17 Sep 2004 15:07 GMT
Thanks for the link, I too have expressed by horror and disgust at the
incident.

Hugs,

CatNipped

>> This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> I have, I assure you.
buglady - 17 Sep 2004 13:37 GMT
> "In mid August 2004, a store patron saw a bleeding cat lying in the parking
> lot at Menards. This person reported to teh service desk that a cat was in
> the parking lot, obviously injured. She asked that help be sought for the
> frightened animal, and expressed her concern for it.

.......so she was concerned about the animal, but since she didn't want to
do anything herself, tried to make someone else do something then complains
about the result?  All could have been avoided if she had taken the kitten
to the vet herself.  But then that would have cost money and her shopping
would have been interrupted I guess.  Phooey on people like this.

buglady
take out the dog before replying
Kalyahna - 19 Sep 2004 00:54 GMT
> > "In mid August 2004, a store patron saw a bleeding cat lying in the
> parking
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> buglady
> take out the dog before replying

I didn't witness the event. I didn't see the cat. I have no idea how badly
the kitten was injured. Most of us are sensible enough not to move an animal
with what looks to be serious injuries unless you're a vet or trained in
animal medical care. Perhaps she didn't realize there was animal ordinance
(it's a small town, remember - those of us that work at shelters even in
large cities know just how many people are completely unaware of our
existence or our purpose in the community), perhaps she panicked. Perhaps
she just isn't perfect, and evidently you are.
buglady - 19 Sep 2004 11:10 GMT
>I didn't witness the event. I didn't see the cat. I have no idea how badly
>the kitten was injured. Most of us are sensible enough not to move an animal
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>large cities know just how many people are completely unaware of our
>existence or our purpose in the community),
........Oh please - you think there's a pet ambulance with life support
capabilities that you can call to transport injured animals?  If your cat
gets hit by a car you would call someone and wait for something to happen?
You got a vet in your town that would rush to your injured animal?  Your
shelter would rush a vet to the scene to take care of the animal?  Or send
people out as fast as possible to get this cat some vet care?  As for not
knowing what to do, the police are always a good place to start.  They could
either make the call themselves or tell you who to call.

Cats are easy because they're small.  All you'd need is a stiff piece of
cardboard you could slip under the cat.  Wouldn't have to move them much to
do it either.  Ought to be plenty of cardboard at Menards.  It's not rocket
science, it's just common sense.  If they're so badly injured that gently
moving them will kill them, they aren't going to make it waiting around for
someone *trained* to show up either.

The world is full of people who want someone else to do something about
something or other.  If you think people don't know that a shelter would
perform the service of administering to injured animals, then perhaps the
take home lesson should be education in your community on an event like
this - what to do, who to call and your function in the community.  Seems to
me this would go a lot further in preventing anything like this happening
again than boycotting a store.

buglady
take out the dog before replying
Sherry - 19 Sep 2004 14:10 GMT
>Cats are easy because they're small.  All you'd need is a stiff piece of
>cardboard you could slip under the cat.  Wouldn't have to move them much to
>do it either.  Ought to be plenty of cardboard at Menards.  It's not rocket
>science, it's just common sense.  If they're so badly injured that gently
>moving them will kill them, they aren't going to make it waiting around for
>someone *trained* to show up either.

All true, but another part of being sensible about moving an injured animal is
protecting yourself from being bitten or scratched.  For a while it seemed like
I was running onto so many animals, I started carrying a cardboard carrier, a
towel, gloves and a leash inthe trunk of the car. The leash can also be
fashioned to work as a muzzle for an injured dog before trying to pick it up.
Sherry
Mary - 19 Sep 2004 17:45 GMT
> Cats are easy because they're small.  All you'd need is a stiff piece of
> cardboard you could slip under the cat.  Wouldn't have to move them much to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> me this would go a lot further in preventing anything like this happening
> again than boycotting a store.

I agree with you, Buglady. And I know I would not have been able
to stop myself from taking that cat to be cared for. I (and others) may
not know how I might react to an emergency such as the flood being
discussed in another thread, but I know how I react to injured animals.
I wouldn't be able to bear leaving him, and I think most other animal
people would be the same way. For those who would be afraid to
take an injured animal to the vet due to the expense (not having
the money is what I mean)--I doubt that most vet would refuse to
treat an animal in pain, whether it meant fixing the injury of
euthanizing the cat if it is too bad. The place for an injured
animal is at the vet's.
Sherry - 20 Sep 2004 01:43 GMT
> For those who would be afraid to
>take an injured animal to the vet due to the expense (not having
>the money is what I mean)--I doubt that most vet would refuse to
>treat an animal in pain, whether it meant fixing the injury of
>euthanizing the cat if it is too bad.

That's always been true from my experiences. The vets here charge plenty to
their patients, but god love them, I"ve used four different ones for injured
animals picked up and never been charged for euthanasia.  Two were in the city
and I didn't even know them. They even rushed us in, in front of the other
patients.
I've always been sure to send a card and once a cookie basket just to show
appreciation.
Sherry

Sherry
Kalyahna - 21 Sep 2004 01:39 GMT
> If your cat
> gets hit by a car you would call someone and wait for something to happen?

Depends on the extent of the injuries. I might well have to call someone to
drive me, if I were panicking.

> You got a vet in your town that would rush to your injured animal?  Your
> shelter would rush a vet to the scene to take care of the animal?  Or send
> people out as fast as possible to get this cat some vet care?

We have trained humane agents to pick up and transport sick or injured or
aggressive animals either to the shelter or to the emergency clinic during
off hours.

As for not
> knowing what to do, the police are always a good place to start.  They could
> either make the call themselves or tell you who to call.

Surprise. The police were called eventually. The officer that showed up
didn't bother to file a report on what happened.

> Cats are easy because they're small.  All you'd need is a stiff piece of
> cardboard you could slip under the cat.  Wouldn't have to move them much to
> do it either.  Ought to be plenty of cardboard at Menards.  It's not rocket
> science, it's just common sense.  If they're so badly injured that gently
> moving them will kill them, they aren't going to make it waiting around for
> someone *trained* to show up either.

It's common sense to people who deal routinely with injured animals on
roadsides and in parking lots. It's not common sense to the majority of
people.

> The world is full of people who want someone else to do something about
> something or other.

Evidently, you're psychic and know exactly why the witness did what she did
instead of doing what you would have done in her shoes. I'm sure you're
perfect.

> If you think people don't know that a shelter would
> perform the service of administering to injured animals, then perhaps the
> take home lesson should be education in your community on an event like
> this - what to do, who to call and your function in the community.  Seems to
> me this would go a lot further in preventing anything like this happening
> again than boycotting a store.

Public education doesn't change individual irresponsibility or general
stupidity. Calls and letters to HQ are intended to see that the man
responsible for that kitten's death is punished for that irresponsibility
and stupidity. If it takes threats to boycott or following through on those
threats, so be it. Publicity on something like this will bring animal
cruelty into newspapers or possibly even onto televised media - shelters, on
the other hand, have a hard time getting any of the former, and a hell of a
time getting the latter. Make any of that positive media attention, and it's
very close to a snowball's chance in hell.

> buglady
formerly known as 'cat arranger' - 21 Sep 2004 17:36 GMT
: >I didn't witness the event. I didn't see the cat. I have no idea how badly
: >the kitten was injured.
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
: buglady
: take out the dog before replying

The lady not taking the cat herself is a separate issue
from the store manager instructing that the kitten be
beat to death, if that is what happened. I would like
to hear what Menard's has to say, and I will call them.
If the account is accurate then what should be done?
Does PETA respond to such things?
Bluesman - 21 Sep 2004 19:48 GMT
> > "In mid August 2004, a store patron saw a bleeding cat lying in the
>  parking
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> buglady
> take out the dog before replying

I have had pets all my life but I am no PETA member.  Nonetheless, if
I had see a couple of $3/hour jerk offs in the process of killing a
kitten in a parking lot in broad daylight, I would consider it carte
blanche to lay a beat down of my own, then take the cat with me.  If
it dies, at least it would die with me.  Who's husband was watching
this in the story and did nothing?  What an a.shole.

Later,

Bluesman
graphics - 17 Sep 2004 14:18 GMT
K,
    This message brought tears to my eyes.  WHAT A DESPICABLE THING.  Dave
Hoak, you should be ashamed of yourself!!!  Kalyahna,  should consider a
boycott of this establishment, possibly even organize a demonstration in
front of his business. This should get you more media coverage.  Make signs
and post them around your community, announcing this man's unconscionable
behavior!

Kalyahna,  I recommend that you document your charges and contact P.E.T.A.
http://www.peta.org/
or your state ASPCA.
http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?JServSessionIdr005=v35pcpedm1.app28b

graphics
Sherry - 17 Sep 2004 16:14 GMT
>This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me.
>
>The short version:
>In mid August, at a Menard's store in Marshfield, Wisconsin (pop: 20,000), a
>wounded kitten

This is a horrible story, and the action taken by the store disturbs me in so
many ways I can't even separate them all. Geez, why wasn't animal control
called? But, reading the story from my POV, I don't know why the lady told the
store manager in the first place. I"ve picked up many injured cats, and one
dying dog, and I've always taken them to whatever vet I could find. I've never
been charged a dime for it, either, BTW, for a humane euthanasia I mean. It's
just taking responsibility when there's nobody else to do it. I never felt like
I had a choice to pawn it off on anybody else. Either do it myself or leave the
animal writhing on the side of the road. No contest.
Sherry
Agua Girl - 17 Sep 2004 16:35 GMT
> >This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> I had a choice to pawn it off on anybody else. Either do it myself or leave the
> animal writhing on the side of the road. No contest.

I thought the same thing.  While it's easy to get up an arms against
that horrible big company....it would never occur to me to go to
them to begin with.  I am surprised more people aren't upset
with the woman for not doing more than just demanding someone
else be responsible.

AG
Jodie - 17 Sep 2004 19:25 GMT
this was all they had to say!

my letter:

I just finished reading about the cat-bludgeoning incident in the
parking
lot of your Marshfield location.

I am horrified and appalled, especially to know that the manager who
ordered
the beating, Dave Hoak, is still working at Menards.

Here I am, up in Canada, and the story is making the rounds.  I really
hope
you do something about the employees involved, before it's out in the
media,
and everyone knows you failed to do anything.  How does that make you
look?

Sincerely,

Jodie

reply:

Jodie,

We have disciplined those involved and I am sure this will not happen
again.
I have a cat and 2 dogs and love them dearly.

Thank you, Ray

--
___________________
Jodie
jodie75@sympatico.ca

> > >This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me.
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> AG
Amy Gray - 17 Sep 2004 23:03 GMT
>I am horrified and appalled, especially to know that the manager who
>ordered
>the beating, Dave Hoak, is still working at Menards.
Has someone tried contacting corporation headquarters/the CEO/
the union for the employees?  

Maybe one the best things to do is picket the store to draw attention
to the abuse or place an ad in the newspaper that the store advertises
in?
Sherry - 18 Sep 2004 02:09 GMT
>I thought the same thing.  While it's easy to get up an arms against
>that horrible big company....it would never occur to me to go to
>them to begin with.

Me neither, not in a million years. For example, if I found an injured kitten
on Walmart parking lot, it would honestly never occur to me to go into the
store and tell them.  
I don't mean to say that I'm a one-woman death squad for injured animals. But
the ones I"ve found were in awful shape, all had been run over, and the dog had
been shot.

Sherry
Agua Girl - 18 Sep 2004 02:23 GMT
> >I thought the same thing.  While it's easy to get up an arms against
> >that horrible big company....it would never occur to me to go to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> the ones I"ve found were in awful shape, all had been run over, and the dog had
> been shot.

Ohh that's bad.  I've been lucky.  All the animals I picked up were
ok..just "loose".  While back I picked up two little datsun/min pin
mixes.  They were dirty and had fleas but they were the fattest damn
strays ya ever saw.  I thought for sure someone would claim them.
Luckily a rescue group was able to step in.  The worst case was a dog
who had been hit by a car.  Happened right in front of us and the dog
was mostly just clipped and in shock.  The girl who hit him was too
freaked out.  She stopped but didn't want to go near him (German
Shepherd..big guy).  We took him to the nearest vet..turned out the
vet knew the dog and the dogs owner.  Hows that for coincidence?

I'm glad there are people like you who just do what's needed without
thinking about who's job it should be.   If we all took the initiative can
you imagine what a better world it would be.
(not all us here, most of us already do..but everyone every where)

AG
formerly known as 'cat arranger' - 22 Sep 2004 17:11 GMT
: >This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me.
: >
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
: animal writhing on the side of the road. No contest.
: Sherry

It is impossible to know the actions or state of mind of the
lady. Maybe she trusted the store or people in general and
wasn't near a pay phone or didn't have a cell phone. But
even if she is a pathetic people pleaser who can't think ahead,
even in the case of protecting helpless animals, it doesn't
mitigate the responsibility of the manager and employees.

Good point about moving injured animals and they're sometimes
biting or scratching.

It seems a good thing to be careful about the adjectives we use
too. Whether the store manager said "Go beat the f---ing  cat to death."
or "Go do what you have to do to put it out of it's misery." isn't
known. And whether the cat was writhing in pain, dazed and able
to recover, or already dead, we don't know. This sounds like a cop
out for the perpetrators, but it is something that I have to force
myself to think about. It would be the same if a cat were accused
scratching someone's baby. Was the baby scratched by a family
member and the cat being blamed to cover for a mean child or a
careless babysitter... We just don't know because we weren't there.
Reply - 17 Sep 2004 21:50 GMT
>This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me.
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>The long version:
<snip>

I sent this entire post to the e-mail address given in the article for
Menards. The following is the entire text, with no changes, deletions
or additions, that I received from Menards. I sent my e-mail today,
September 17, 2004 and received the reply within hours.

In the interest of fairness, I will not post any personal comments
with this particular post. The reply from Menards stands by itself.

Full, unabriged reply from Menards, only the header showing my e-mail
address has been removed:

<start of Menards reply>

All of us here at Menards are deeply saddened by this event.  Many of
us own and we all love animals.  We are in the process of determining
what disciplines and terminations should occur as a result of this and
how to implement procedures to prevent this from happening in the
future.  In my many, many years as an employee of Menards, I have
never ever heard of a similar occurrence and I hope to never hear of
another.



Thank you, Ray

<End of Menards reply
Karen - 17 Sep 2004 22:55 GMT
> >This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> <End of Menards reply>

Well  that's interesting. I got THIS reply today:

Karen,

We have disciplined those involved and I'm sure this will not happen again.
I have a cat and 2 dogs and I love them both dearly.

Thank you, Ray

<end of my Menards reply>
Hmmmm. The two don't quite match up now, do they >:(
formerly known as 'cat arranger' - 21 Sep 2004 17:39 GMT
: > >This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me.
: > >
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
: <end of my Menards reply>
: Hmmmm. The two don't quite match up now, do they >:(

What is the appropriate discipline for bludgeoning a kitten to death...
Maybe several months or years in a mental hospital for the criminally
insane.
FussyKatie - 25 Sep 2004 04:28 GMT
I'd prefer that they get sentenced to a few months pounding rocks all day
and eating worms for dinner.

Katie

> What is the appropriate discipline for bludgeoning a kitten to death...
> Maybe several months or years in a mental hospital for the criminally
> insane.
Fan - 17 Sep 2004 22:15 GMT
Like almost all of us, I was sickened at this story. It will be
interesting to see if there are any legal prosecutions or employee
actions taken because of this incident.

Also, when you are considering making a purchase at Menards, don't
forget the series of arrests that were attributed to Menards a few
years ago. These were for the horrible crime of shoplifting a few
pennies worth of products, literally pennies.

One "theft" was when a physician purchased a bolt and nut together.
The clerk failed to charge him for the nut and only charged for the
bolt. It was around 35 cents. Although the clerk made the mistake of
not charging for the attached nut, the doctor was grabbed by security
and was threatened with being sent to jail.

In another incident, a black man was required to open his back pack to
prove that he had not shoplifted anything. Although there was no
evidence to suggest that he had shoplifted, he was told he had to open
the back pack. No one had seen anything, he had done nothing
suspicious. His complaint was that white people were not required to
open their back packs.

In another incident, a police officer was leaving the Menards lot with
a shoplifting suspect. The officer had been called to the store to
make the arrest. When leaving, the officer was told that he MUST open
the trunk of his car so the security guard could see if the officer,
himself, had shoplifted. The officer refused, but the security guard
would not relent.

Now, ask yourself, do you really want to do business with a company
like this?
AC - 18 Sep 2004 01:01 GMT
Although it's a very sad situation, and the person responsible should be
held responsible for their actions, why are people targetting the shop? No
company can assume full responsibility for all of its employees actions.

There are even legal limitations on liability in this case. The state should
fine the company/or the employee or both under whatever animal protection
legislation is in place.

Forget the banner waving & boycotts at the store - they will not do a thing
to increase the level of protection for animals, or change the obviously
marginal respect for animal welfare of the perpetrator. You'd be better off
down at city hall with those banners...

> Like almost all of us, I was sickened at this story. It will be
> interesting to see if there are any legal prosecutions or employee
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Now, ask yourself, do you really want to do business with a company
> like this?
Although it's a very sad situation, and the person responsible should be
held responsible for their actions, why are people targetting the shop? No
company can assume full responsibility for all of its employees actions.

There are even legal limitations on liability in this case. The state should
fine the company/or the employee or both under whatever animal protection
legislation is in place.

Forget the banner waving & boycotts at the store - they will not do a thing
to increase the level of protection for animals, or change the obviously
marginal respect for animal welfare of the perpetrator. You'd be better off
down at city hall with those banners...

> Like almost all of us, I was sickened at this story. It will be
> interesting to see if there are any legal prosecutions or employee
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Now, ask yourself, do you really want to do business with a company
> like this?
Kalyahna - 19 Sep 2004 00:49 GMT
> Although it's a very sad situation, and the person responsible should be
> held responsible for their actions, why are people targetting the shop? No
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> marginal respect for animal welfare of the perpetrator. You'd be better off
> down at city hall with those banners...

The point is not to punish the company, but to hold responsible the man who
ordered his employees to beat this kitten to death. If it comes down to
boycotting the store to see any results, so be it.
Bluesman - 21 Sep 2004 19:55 GMT
> > Although it's a very sad situation, and the person responsible should be
> > held responsible for their actions, why are people targetting the shop? No
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> ordered his employees to beat this kitten to death. If it comes down to
> boycotting the store to see any results, so be it.

The man who ordered it?  What about the morons who did it?  This isn't
military "following orders" crap - these are moron clerks who got
their rocks off with permission from the head moron.

All of them deserve to get worked over with a bat.  

Bluesman
AC - 18 Oct 2004 22:49 GMT
Is that fighting "fire with fire", a "pre-emptive strike", revenge, teaching
morals, or perhaps simply lowering yourself to (or maybe below) the level of
an obvious moron?

I think the latter...

> > > Although it's a very sad situation, and the person responsible should be
> > > held responsible for their actions, why are people targetting the shop? No
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Bluesman
r5 - 19 Sep 2004 10:39 GMT
<qqq@dewy.com.au> wrote:
> There are even legal limitations on liability in this case. The state should
> fine the company/or the employee or both under whatever animal protection

Actually, US corporations can and are held liable for the illegal
acts committed by their employees, especially when said employees
are on duty and even from the ranks of management as in this case.
AC - 18 Oct 2004 22:46 GMT
I know that IS the law, but that's rarely got much to do with common sense,
which should prevail here...

> <qqq@dewy.com.au> wrote:
> > There are even legal limitations on liability in this case. The state should
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> acts committed by their employees, especially when said employees
> are on duty and even from the ranks of management as in this case.
 
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