Cat Forum / General Topics / October 2004
Disturbing Incident.
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Kalyahna - 17 Sep 2004 05:00 GMT This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me.
The short version: In mid August, at a Menard's store in Marshfield, Wisconsin (pop: 20,000), a wounded kitten was bludgeoned to death by a store employee at the direction of his manager, a man named Dave Hoak.
The police have done nothing except say that in future situations, the ordinance officers should be called. The local news herald took a month to publish anything at all about this horrible situation and didn't offer anything better.
The long version: "In mid August 2004, a store patron saw a bleeding cat lying in the parking lot at Menards. This person reported to teh service desk that a cat was in the parking lot, obviously injured. She asked that help be sought for the frightened animal, and expressed her concern for it. The store manager was contacted and directed two young male employees to take a lawn edger out to the parking lot and beat the cat to death. The young men did what they were told to do by their manager. This extremely violent act was witnessed by other store patrons moving through the parking lot. One of these patrons went to the same service desk to report what was happening to the cat and was told that they were aware of what was going on outside.
A local veterinary office was called about the incident, as was the local police department. A third person called the manager at Menards to question him about the incident. The caller was told it was, "just like hunting, sir." At this time, the manager is still employed by Menards." -- This from the only eyewitness to come forward.
This is the news herald article that attempts to cover what happened. The author's contact info is available at the bottom of the screen. http://www.wisinfo.com/newsherald/mnhlocal/281452133135965.shtml
My sister is the "friend" at Marshfield Veterinary Service. Her response to his article follows. It is abridged slightly to keep to the topic at hand: "Mr. Gneiser,
I am deeply disappointed in your article regarding the death of the kitten in Menard's parking lot. I'm afraid that from the very beginning of your article, there are obvious problems with this story.
First, you did not mention that this animal was a kitten and lead readers to believe that it was an adult cat.
Second, you state repeatedly that this animal was "critically injured". I would like to know who is qualified to make that judgment. Are the employees at Menard's trained in veterinary medicine? After working over 5 years in the field of veterinary medicine, I have learned a few things about injury and trauma. Shock can often set in and cause the animal to go into a coma-like state. With treatment, shock can often be overcome, and depending on the extent of other injuries, many animals can recover. I guess we will never know the state of that animal because the employee took it upon himself to make that call. The police can make no judgment on the extent of the injury because no one in their department has even seen the animal, even though they keep saying it was "critically injured". Perhaps you should seek the opinion of a veterinarian to include in any future stories like this.
Third, you do not mention that what the eye witness, Mrs. Albers, saw varies from the account given to the police by the Menard's employee. According to her, the kitten was struck repeatedly and was flailing it's legs and tail during the beating. I have a hard time believing this to be "mercy".
Finally, I find some of the comments made by Joe Stroik to be disturbing at best. Whether the employee did or did not know about ordinance control is beside the point. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for inappropriate behavior. The question over whether the kitten was stray or not should have nothing to do with how the animal was treated. Are not all the animals found running at large considered stray until they are claimed by an owner? The fact that no owner has come forward now, a month later, has nothing to do with how that kitten was treated on that day, at that time. They were not and could not have been certain that it was a stray at the time that it was killed. Whether the kitten would have been euthanized after being collected by ordinance control is an assumption - again - of the animal being "critically injured", we have no proof of that being so.
I certainly hope that you will print a follow-up story correcting the false impression you have left on the public that this was a minor issue being questioned by a group of crazy animal lovers and that no real crime has been committed. I also hope that you include the ridiculous and unprofessional response by Ray at Menard's headquarters when my friend Gina Knetter informed him of this act being committed."
Ray's response, by the way, was, "This is total bull."
Ray can be reached at guest@menard-inc.com or 1-800-menards.
The chief of police quoted in the article above was spoken to by the eye witness and informed of many things of which he was unaware... due to the ineptitude of the officer on the scene. The eye witness writes, "I did talk with cheif Stroik today. We actually had a nice talk about it all. I voiced my concerns about the fact that there didn't seem to be an official report and that there were some misrepresentations in the newspaper article. For one, the kitten was not beaten to death - it was pinned to the ground with a lawn edger on its neck. My husband saw the final "push", I couldn't see anymore because my eyes were so filled with tears! Cheif Stroik had me email him my letter to the press and also describe in detail what I saw & how officer Rice handled the situation. He was actually surprised at what I had to say - Officer Rice never put my name in the report and also she didn't file it right away either. I think that after talking with me & once he reads all the facts I typed for him, he will have a different view on the whole situation. I did ask him if he tried to get the surveillance tapes for the parking lot (which I am sure Menards would have or DID have). He said no, but he would look into it. cross your fingers!"
The local news has been informed of the incident, and it sounds as though the local CBS affiliate will be running a story on it sometime this next week. After that airs (if it does, let's hope so), there may be more public outcry, but we can always use a few extra phone calls or e-mails to let Menards know that such things are not acceptable and ARE in fact, a violation of law (my sister has contacted the animal legal defense fund and they've verified that it was illegal).
For those of you that have waded through all of this, thank you for your time.
For those of you that call or write to express your anger and disgust, thank you VERY much.
~K
Karen Chuplis - 17 Sep 2004 05:16 GMT > This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me. I invite you all to contact Menards:
http://www.menards.com/menards?mm_dest=%2Fcontactus.jsp
I have, I assure you.
Jodie - 17 Sep 2004 05:57 GMT > I invite you all to contact Menards: > > http://www.menards.com/menards?mm_dest=%2Fcontactus.jsp > > I have, I assure you. Thank you, so have I. I am appalled by the whole thing. I let them know I am up here in Canada, and the story is making the rounds here!
CatNipped - 17 Sep 2004 15:07 GMT Thanks for the link, I too have expressed by horror and disgust at the incident.
Hugs,
CatNipped
>> This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I have, I assure you. buglady - 17 Sep 2004 13:37 GMT > "In mid August 2004, a store patron saw a bleeding cat lying in the parking > lot at Menards. This person reported to teh service desk that a cat was in > the parking lot, obviously injured. She asked that help be sought for the > frightened animal, and expressed her concern for it. .......so she was concerned about the animal, but since she didn't want to do anything herself, tried to make someone else do something then complains about the result? All could have been avoided if she had taken the kitten to the vet herself. But then that would have cost money and her shopping would have been interrupted I guess. Phooey on people like this.
buglady take out the dog before replying
Kalyahna - 19 Sep 2004 00:54 GMT > > "In mid August 2004, a store patron saw a bleeding cat lying in the > parking [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > buglady > take out the dog before replying I didn't witness the event. I didn't see the cat. I have no idea how badly the kitten was injured. Most of us are sensible enough not to move an animal with what looks to be serious injuries unless you're a vet or trained in animal medical care. Perhaps she didn't realize there was animal ordinance (it's a small town, remember - those of us that work at shelters even in large cities know just how many people are completely unaware of our existence or our purpose in the community), perhaps she panicked. Perhaps she just isn't perfect, and evidently you are.
buglady - 19 Sep 2004 11:10 GMT >I didn't witness the event. I didn't see the cat. I have no idea how badly >the kitten was injured. Most of us are sensible enough not to move an animal [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >large cities know just how many people are completely unaware of our >existence or our purpose in the community), ........Oh please - you think there's a pet ambulance with life support capabilities that you can call to transport injured animals? If your cat gets hit by a car you would call someone and wait for something to happen? You got a vet in your town that would rush to your injured animal? Your shelter would rush a vet to the scene to take care of the animal? Or send people out as fast as possible to get this cat some vet care? As for not knowing what to do, the police are always a good place to start. They could either make the call themselves or tell you who to call.
Cats are easy because they're small. All you'd need is a stiff piece of cardboard you could slip under the cat. Wouldn't have to move them much to do it either. Ought to be plenty of cardboard at Menards. It's not rocket science, it's just common sense. If they're so badly injured that gently moving them will kill them, they aren't going to make it waiting around for someone *trained* to show up either.
The world is full of people who want someone else to do something about something or other. If you think people don't know that a shelter would perform the service of administering to injured animals, then perhaps the take home lesson should be education in your community on an event like this - what to do, who to call and your function in the community. Seems to me this would go a lot further in preventing anything like this happening again than boycotting a store.
buglady take out the dog before replying
Sherry - 19 Sep 2004 14:10 GMT >Cats are easy because they're small. All you'd need is a stiff piece of >cardboard you could slip under the cat. Wouldn't have to move them much to >do it either. Ought to be plenty of cardboard at Menards. It's not rocket >science, it's just common sense. If they're so badly injured that gently >moving them will kill them, they aren't going to make it waiting around for >someone *trained* to show up either. All true, but another part of being sensible about moving an injured animal is protecting yourself from being bitten or scratched. For a while it seemed like I was running onto so many animals, I started carrying a cardboard carrier, a towel, gloves and a leash inthe trunk of the car. The leash can also be fashioned to work as a muzzle for an injured dog before trying to pick it up. Sherry
Mary - 19 Sep 2004 17:45 GMT > Cats are easy because they're small. All you'd need is a stiff piece of > cardboard you could slip under the cat. Wouldn't have to move them much to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > me this would go a lot further in preventing anything like this happening > again than boycotting a store. I agree with you, Buglady. And I know I would not have been able to stop myself from taking that cat to be cared for. I (and others) may not know how I might react to an emergency such as the flood being discussed in another thread, but I know how I react to injured animals. I wouldn't be able to bear leaving him, and I think most other animal people would be the same way. For those who would be afraid to take an injured animal to the vet due to the expense (not having the money is what I mean)--I doubt that most vet would refuse to treat an animal in pain, whether it meant fixing the injury of euthanizing the cat if it is too bad. The place for an injured animal is at the vet's.
Sherry - 20 Sep 2004 01:43 GMT > For those who would be afraid to >take an injured animal to the vet due to the expense (not having >the money is what I mean)--I doubt that most vet would refuse to >treat an animal in pain, whether it meant fixing the injury of >euthanizing the cat if it is too bad. That's always been true from my experiences. The vets here charge plenty to their patients, but god love them, I"ve used four different ones for injured animals picked up and never been charged for euthanasia. Two were in the city and I didn't even know them. They even rushed us in, in front of the other patients. I've always been sure to send a card and once a cookie basket just to show appreciation. Sherry
Sherry
Kalyahna - 21 Sep 2004 01:39 GMT > If your cat > gets hit by a car you would call someone and wait for something to happen? Depends on the extent of the injuries. I might well have to call someone to drive me, if I were panicking.
> You got a vet in your town that would rush to your injured animal? Your > shelter would rush a vet to the scene to take care of the animal? Or send > people out as fast as possible to get this cat some vet care? We have trained humane agents to pick up and transport sick or injured or aggressive animals either to the shelter or to the emergency clinic during off hours.
As for not
> knowing what to do, the police are always a good place to start. They could > either make the call themselves or tell you who to call. Surprise. The police were called eventually. The officer that showed up didn't bother to file a report on what happened.
> Cats are easy because they're small. All you'd need is a stiff piece of > cardboard you could slip under the cat. Wouldn't have to move them much to > do it either. Ought to be plenty of cardboard at Menards. It's not rocket > science, it's just common sense. If they're so badly injured that gently > moving them will kill them, they aren't going to make it waiting around for > someone *trained* to show up either. It's common sense to people who deal routinely with injured animals on roadsides and in parking lots. It's not common sense to the majority of people.
> The world is full of people who want someone else to do something about > something or other. Evidently, you're psychic and know exactly why the witness did what she did instead of doing what you would have done in her shoes. I'm sure you're perfect.
> If you think people don't know that a shelter would > perform the service of administering to injured animals, then perhaps the > take home lesson should be education in your community on an event like > this - what to do, who to call and your function in the community. Seems to > me this would go a lot further in preventing anything like this happening > again than boycotting a store. Public education doesn't change individual irresponsibility or general stupidity. Calls and letters to HQ are intended to see that the man responsible for that kitten's death is punished for that irresponsibility and stupidity. If it takes threats to boycott or following through on those threats, so be it. Publicity on something like this will bring animal cruelty into newspapers or possibly even onto televised media - shelters, on the other hand, have a hard time getting any of the former, and a hell of a time getting the latter. Make any of that positive media attention, and it's very close to a snowball's chance in hell.
> buglady formerly known as 'cat arranger' - 21 Sep 2004 17:36 GMT : >I didn't witness the event. I didn't see the cat. I have no idea how badly : >the kitten was injured. [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] : buglady : take out the dog before replying The lady not taking the cat herself is a separate issue from the store manager instructing that the kitten be beat to death, if that is what happened. I would like to hear what Menard's has to say, and I will call them. If the account is accurate then what should be done? Does PETA respond to such things?
Bluesman - 21 Sep 2004 19:48 GMT > > "In mid August 2004, a store patron saw a bleeding cat lying in the > parking [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > buglady > take out the dog before replying I have had pets all my life but I am no PETA member. Nonetheless, if I had see a couple of $3/hour jerk offs in the process of killing a kitten in a parking lot in broad daylight, I would consider it carte blanche to lay a beat down of my own, then take the cat with me. If it dies, at least it would die with me. Who's husband was watching this in the story and did nothing? What an a.shole.
Later,
Bluesman
graphics - 17 Sep 2004 14:18 GMT K, This message brought tears to my eyes. WHAT A DESPICABLE THING. Dave Hoak, you should be ashamed of yourself!!! Kalyahna, should consider a boycott of this establishment, possibly even organize a demonstration in front of his business. This should get you more media coverage. Make signs and post them around your community, announcing this man's unconscionable behavior!
Kalyahna, I recommend that you document your charges and contact P.E.T.A. http://www.peta.org/ or your state ASPCA. http://www.aspca.org/site/PageServer?JServSessionIdr005=v35pcpedm1.app28b
graphics
Sherry - 17 Sep 2004 16:14 GMT >This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me. > >The short version: >In mid August, at a Menard's store in Marshfield, Wisconsin (pop: 20,000), a >wounded kitten This is a horrible story, and the action taken by the store disturbs me in so many ways I can't even separate them all. Geez, why wasn't animal control called? But, reading the story from my POV, I don't know why the lady told the store manager in the first place. I"ve picked up many injured cats, and one dying dog, and I've always taken them to whatever vet I could find. I've never been charged a dime for it, either, BTW, for a humane euthanasia I mean. It's just taking responsibility when there's nobody else to do it. I never felt like I had a choice to pawn it off on anybody else. Either do it myself or leave the animal writhing on the side of the road. No contest. Sherry
Agua Girl - 17 Sep 2004 16:35 GMT > >This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me. > > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I had a choice to pawn it off on anybody else. Either do it myself or leave the > animal writhing on the side of the road. No contest. I thought the same thing. While it's easy to get up an arms against that horrible big company....it would never occur to me to go to them to begin with. I am surprised more people aren't upset with the woman for not doing more than just demanding someone else be responsible.
AG
Jodie - 17 Sep 2004 19:25 GMT this was all they had to say!
my letter:
I just finished reading about the cat-bludgeoning incident in the parking lot of your Marshfield location.
I am horrified and appalled, especially to know that the manager who ordered the beating, Dave Hoak, is still working at Menards.
Here I am, up in Canada, and the story is making the rounds. I really hope you do something about the employees involved, before it's out in the media, and everyone knows you failed to do anything. How does that make you look?
Sincerely,
Jodie
reply:
Jodie,
We have disciplined those involved and I am sure this will not happen again. I have a cat and 2 dogs and love them dearly.
Thank you, Ray
-- ___________________ Jodie jodie75@sympatico.ca
> > >This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me. > > > [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > > AG Amy Gray - 17 Sep 2004 23:03 GMT >I am horrified and appalled, especially to know that the manager who >ordered >the beating, Dave Hoak, is still working at Menards. Has someone tried contacting corporation headquarters/the CEO/ the union for the employees?
Maybe one the best things to do is picket the store to draw attention to the abuse or place an ad in the newspaper that the store advertises in?
Sherry - 18 Sep 2004 02:09 GMT >I thought the same thing. While it's easy to get up an arms against >that horrible big company....it would never occur to me to go to >them to begin with. Me neither, not in a million years. For example, if I found an injured kitten on Walmart parking lot, it would honestly never occur to me to go into the store and tell them. I don't mean to say that I'm a one-woman death squad for injured animals. But the ones I"ve found were in awful shape, all had been run over, and the dog had been shot.
Sherry
Agua Girl - 18 Sep 2004 02:23 GMT > >I thought the same thing. While it's easy to get up an arms against > >that horrible big company....it would never occur to me to go to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the ones I"ve found were in awful shape, all had been run over, and the dog had > been shot. Ohh that's bad. I've been lucky. All the animals I picked up were ok..just "loose". While back I picked up two little datsun/min pin mixes. They were dirty and had fleas but they were the fattest damn strays ya ever saw. I thought for sure someone would claim them. Luckily a rescue group was able to step in. The worst case was a dog who had been hit by a car. Happened right in front of us and the dog was mostly just clipped and in shock. The girl who hit him was too freaked out. She stopped but didn't want to go near him (German Shepherd..big guy). We took him to the nearest vet..turned out the vet knew the dog and the dogs owner. Hows that for coincidence?
I'm glad there are people like you who just do what's needed without thinking about who's job it should be. If we all took the initiative can you imagine what a better world it would be. (not all us here, most of us already do..but everyone every where)
AG
formerly known as 'cat arranger' - 22 Sep 2004 17:11 GMT : >This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me. : > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] : animal writhing on the side of the road. No contest. : Sherry It is impossible to know the actions or state of mind of the lady. Maybe she trusted the store or people in general and wasn't near a pay phone or didn't have a cell phone. But even if she is a pathetic people pleaser who can't think ahead, even in the case of protecting helpless animals, it doesn't mitigate the responsibility of the manager and employees.
Good point about moving injured animals and they're sometimes biting or scratching.
It seems a good thing to be careful about the adjectives we use too. Whether the store manager said "Go beat the f---ing cat to death." or "Go do what you have to do to put it out of it's misery." isn't known. And whether the cat was writhing in pain, dazed and able to recover, or already dead, we don't know. This sounds like a cop out for the perpetrators, but it is something that I have to force myself to think about. It would be the same if a cat were accused scratching someone's baby. Was the baby scratched by a family member and the cat being blamed to cover for a mean child or a careless babysitter... We just don't know because we weren't there.
Reply - 17 Sep 2004 21:50 GMT >This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >The long version: <snip>
I sent this entire post to the e-mail address given in the article for Menards. The following is the entire text, with no changes, deletions or additions, that I received from Menards. I sent my e-mail today, September 17, 2004 and received the reply within hours.
In the interest of fairness, I will not post any personal comments with this particular post. The reply from Menards stands by itself.
Full, unabriged reply from Menards, only the header showing my e-mail address has been removed:
<start of Menards reply>
All of us here at Menards are deeply saddened by this event. Many of us own and we all love animals. We are in the process of determining what disciplines and terminations should occur as a result of this and how to implement procedures to prevent this from happening in the future. In my many, many years as an employee of Menards, I have never ever heard of a similar occurrence and I hope to never hear of another.
Thank you, Ray
<End of Menards reply
Karen - 17 Sep 2004 22:55 GMT > >This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me. > > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > <End of Menards reply> Well that's interesting. I got THIS reply today:
Karen,
We have disciplined those involved and I'm sure this will not happen again. I have a cat and 2 dogs and I love them both dearly.
Thank you, Ray
<end of my Menards reply> Hmmmm. The two don't quite match up now, do they >:(
formerly known as 'cat arranger' - 21 Sep 2004 17:39 GMT : > >This is sort of a long story, so please bear with me. : > > [quoted text clipped - 50 lines] : <end of my Menards reply> : Hmmmm. The two don't quite match up now, do they >:( What is the appropriate discipline for bludgeoning a kitten to death... Maybe several months or years in a mental hospital for the criminally insane.
FussyKatie - 25 Sep 2004 04:28 GMT I'd prefer that they get sentenced to a few months pounding rocks all day and eating worms for dinner.
Katie
> What is the appropriate discipline for bludgeoning a kitten to death... > Maybe several months or years in a mental hospital for the criminally > insane. Fan - 17 Sep 2004 22:15 GMT Like almost all of us, I was sickened at this story. It will be interesting to see if there are any legal prosecutions or employee actions taken because of this incident.
Also, when you are considering making a purchase at Menards, don't forget the series of arrests that were attributed to Menards a few years ago. These were for the horrible crime of shoplifting a few pennies worth of products, literally pennies.
One "theft" was when a physician purchased a bolt and nut together. The clerk failed to charge him for the nut and only charged for the bolt. It was around 35 cents. Although the clerk made the mistake of not charging for the attached nut, the doctor was grabbed by security and was threatened with being sent to jail.
In another incident, a black man was required to open his back pack to prove that he had not shoplifted anything. Although there was no evidence to suggest that he had shoplifted, he was told he had to open the back pack. No one had seen anything, he had done nothing suspicious. His complaint was that white people were not required to open their back packs.
In another incident, a police officer was leaving the Menards lot with a shoplifting suspect. The officer had been called to the store to make the arrest. When leaving, the officer was told that he MUST open the trunk of his car so the security guard could see if the officer, himself, had shoplifted. The officer refused, but the security guard would not relent.
Now, ask yourself, do you really want to do business with a company like this?
AC - 18 Sep 2004 01:01 GMT Although it's a very sad situation, and the person responsible should be held responsible for their actions, why are people targetting the shop? No company can assume full responsibility for all of its employees actions.
There are even legal limitations on liability in this case. The state should fine the company/or the employee or both under whatever animal protection legislation is in place.
Forget the banner waving & boycotts at the store - they will not do a thing to increase the level of protection for animals, or change the obviously marginal respect for animal welfare of the perpetrator. You'd be better off down at city hall with those banners...
> Like almost all of us, I was sickened at this story. It will be > interesting to see if there are any legal prosecutions or employee [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Now, ask yourself, do you really want to do business with a company > like this? Although it's a very sad situation, and the person responsible should be held responsible for their actions, why are people targetting the shop? No company can assume full responsibility for all of its employees actions.
There are even legal limitations on liability in this case. The state should fine the company/or the employee or both under whatever animal protection legislation is in place.
Forget the banner waving & boycotts at the store - they will not do a thing to increase the level of protection for animals, or change the obviously marginal respect for animal welfare of the perpetrator. You'd be better off down at city hall with those banners...
> Like almost all of us, I was sickened at this story. It will be > interesting to see if there are any legal prosecutions or employee [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Now, ask yourself, do you really want to do business with a company > like this? Kalyahna - 19 Sep 2004 00:49 GMT > Although it's a very sad situation, and the person responsible should be > held responsible for their actions, why are people targetting the shop? No [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > marginal respect for animal welfare of the perpetrator. You'd be better off > down at city hall with those banners... The point is not to punish the company, but to hold responsible the man who ordered his employees to beat this kitten to death. If it comes down to boycotting the store to see any results, so be it.
Bluesman - 21 Sep 2004 19:55 GMT > > Although it's a very sad situation, and the person responsible should be > > held responsible for their actions, why are people targetting the shop? No [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > ordered his employees to beat this kitten to death. If it comes down to > boycotting the store to see any results, so be it. The man who ordered it? What about the morons who did it? This isn't military "following orders" crap - these are moron clerks who got their rocks off with permission from the head moron.
All of them deserve to get worked over with a bat.
Bluesman
AC - 18 Oct 2004 22:49 GMT Is that fighting "fire with fire", a "pre-emptive strike", revenge, teaching morals, or perhaps simply lowering yourself to (or maybe below) the level of an obvious moron?
I think the latter...
> > > Although it's a very sad situation, and the person responsible should be > > > held responsible for their actions, why are people targetting the shop? No [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Bluesman r5 - 19 Sep 2004 10:39 GMT <qqq@dewy.com.au> wrote:
> There are even legal limitations on liability in this case. The state should > fine the company/or the employee or both under whatever animal protection Actually, US corporations can and are held liable for the illegal acts committed by their employees, especially when said employees are on duty and even from the ranks of management as in this case.
AC - 18 Oct 2004 22:46 GMT I know that IS the law, but that's rarely got much to do with common sense, which should prevail here...
> <qqq@dewy.com.au> wrote: > > There are even legal limitations on liability in this case. The state should [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > acts committed by their employees, especially when said employees > are on duty and even from the ranks of management as in this case.
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