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Cat Forum / General Topics / September 2004Rutherford, at it again!
Hi All: Another update on Rutherford the Brave, the floor-pissing and wall-spraying cat... Last night I caught him squatting RIGHT after I cleaned the litter box (about two hours after) in the 4 foot area that he has destroyed in our living room with his urine. I feel that he MUST have known he was in the wrong here, because I had to chase him around for about 15 minutes before I caught him to toss his naughty little a.s into the bathroom with food and water and his litterbox for the night. I placed his food (dry bowl), his breakfast (canned food) and his water DIRECTLY on the "stink zone" as we like to call it. He hasn't touched it yet, but I am worried about him now finding another place to piss. I can't deal with much more of this, and if he finds another place to urinate in the house, I'm gonna flip. I'll be making a doctor's appointment in a few days to see if we can get a medical opinion. the only problem I have with the vet the last time (and first time) we took him in was that she didn't have any real answers - she just kept pushing her favorite flea and worm meds. Frustrated and sick of smelling the pee, Jimmy  Signature"...that simple light may rise out of complex darkness." and don't forget to run like an antelope. http://www.jimhutchison.com http://music.jimhutchison.com Not sure what all steps you have taken (I know you got a lot of responses from your previous post). It sounds like you are experiencing the same thing we went through - no medical problem but just a nasty habit you have to break. Here are the steps I found to work: - clean area again with some type of cleaner (it will smell worse when it is re-hydrated). Blot up as much moisture as you can. Cover the area - actually larger than the 'affected' area with sheets of cardboard, plywood, whatever you may have. Use soup cans or plastic bowls to keep them up off the floor so air can flow through. Keep a fan or two on the area - blowing under the cardboard/plywood for many days until the area dries. In fact, after a day or two, pull up the cardboard and start spraying the area with Febreeze every day. Keep the fans on to make sure it all keeps drying (you need to get the padding and sub-floor dry). I have found that the Febreeze really works to get the old urine smell out when the Natures Miracle or other products can't get it out. - After it is dry, remove the fan, but keep the cardboard in place to keep kitty away from that area. It isn't pretty, but just tell your company you are having moisture/drainage issues. - After kitty has stayed away, and you are SURE carpet is dry - purchase some carpet runner material (~$1.50 a foot) and put that down with pointing things up. Kitty won't be able to step on them. Make sure you have a big area covered. You can easily roll this up if it gets in the way when company comes and put it right back down. I have had no problems for the past two weeks with all the carpet runner in place. Also - ask Vet to -check for urinary tract infection - xray kidneys to check for kidney failure (we went to 3 vets before the last one did this) - prescribe amiltryiptilene (sp?) or prozac to help kitty break this habit. Hope this helps. > Hi All: > Another update on Rutherford the Brave, the floor-pissing and wall-spraying [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Frustrated and sick of smelling the pee, > Jimmy also after you have cleaned and dried the area, you could simply put double-sided taped criss-crossing the area. Cats hate to step on that stuff! > Hi All: > Another update on Rutherford the Brave, the floor-pissing and wall-spraying [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Frustrated and sick of smelling the pee, > Jimmy Perhaps a new Vet would be a good idea. MLB > Hi All: > Another update on Rutherford the Brave, the floor-pissing and wall-spraying [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Frustrated and sick of smelling the pee, > Jimmy Can't you just put the litterbox on the piss spot? Bluesman > > Hi All: > > Another update on Rutherford the Brave, the floor-pissing and wall-spraying [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Bluesman Wow. What breathtaking simplicity. I assume the OP does not want to put the litter box there? > Can't you just put the litterbox on the piss spot? > > > > Bluesman > > Wow. What breathtaking simplicity. I assume the OP does not want to put the > litter box there? I'm not sure what this means - I don't want to teach him that the spot he uses is the toilet, I want to teach him that he's not f.cking supposed to piss there. Placing his litter box on the spot seems to me to be a bad judgement. Jimmy > > Can't you just put the litterbox on the piss spot? > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Jimmy Why? Because you don't think a litter box should GO there? I can understand that it might not look nice there, but with the battle you are having with Rutherford and the fact that you claim to love him so much, it seems to be a great compromise. A bad judgement? Um, you'd have a cat going IN THE LITTER BOX instead of on the floor, wall, etc. You could slowly over time inch it in the direction you want it. Did someone suggest to you that cats are the kinds of animals you can completely bend to your will? If so, not true. Rutherford may be missing his literal cojones but he's got nine more sets and they are all issuing opinions. I don't know who started this thread but flea and worm meds just can't be all the vet could offer. What about urine and blood tests? Maybe another vet. -- Barb Of course I don't look busy, I did it right the first time. To add insult to injury, I woke up this morning, let Rutherford out of the bedroom to feed him, and discovered that he had pissed all over and in his water dish that I had placed on his favorite non-litterbox spot. NOW he's just being an a.shole. Come ON, Rutherford. Have you all used up your suggestions? Jimmy > Hi All: > Another update on Rutherford the Brave, the floor-pissing and wall-spraying [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Frustrated and sick of smelling the pee, > Jimmy >To add insult to injury, I woke up this >morning, let Rutherford out of the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >NOW he's just being an a.shole. >Come ON, Rutherford. I know this is frustrating for you, but you have to understand that cats don't exhibit this kind of behavior to intentionally make us mad. There's something seriously wrong here and you need to get Rutherford to a vet ASAP and rule out a medical problem. You should have a urinalysis done, and also an x ray to make sure he doesn't have bladder stones. I would also recommend bloodwork just to make sure there isn't diabetes or something going on and make sure the vet does a thorough check of his teeth. If he is free of medical issues, then your next step at this point is probably going to have to be to put him on medication. The drug of choice for innappropriate elimination is Prozac, and has a much higher effectiveness rate than any of the other meds used for this sort of problem, so that would be the best thing to try first. I have to underline here though that you MUST rule out health issues first. I want to add one more thing. I just went and looked for previous posts about Rutherford and see that he was declawed. Innappropriate elmination is a common behavior of declawed cats that happens because, after what is an amputation of the first joint of each toe, their paws are SO painful that when they dig in the litterbox and it hurts, they associate that pain with the box and seek out other places to go that don't "hurt." While you're at the vet you should also have his paws checked to make sure there isn't something going on in that area as well. If you are responsible for having Rutherford declawed, find a different vet to go to to check these things out as, if the declaw surgery was done incorrectly and is behind this issue, I wouldn't trust the vet that inflicted this on him to fess up that he screwed up which might result in Rutherford not getting his paws fixed if that is the problem. Rutherford is trying to communicate something to you, either it be that he is ill and/or in pain, or stressed by something. Please don't be angry with him. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray | >NOW he's just being an a.shole. | >Come ON, Rutherford. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] | | Megan Very well answered, Megan Carola > To add insult to injury, I woke up this morning, let Rutherford out of the > bedroom to feed him, and discovered that he had pissed all over and in his [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Frustrated and sick of smelling the pee, > > Jimmy Am I to understand that you have not taken him to the vet?? > Am I to understand that you have not taken him > to the vet?? No: You are to understand that Rutherford has been to the vet, and he checks out. I have tried EVERY suggestion I have been given (with the exception of the Prozac) and nothing has worked. I am considering the cat box thing, but I wonder if he's going to think that since I moved the toilet from where it is currently located (in the master bathroom shower) to the living room that it's perfectly okay to continue to piss where he likes - especially since I will have catered to him by making it easier to go on the carpet by moving the box. JImmy > > Am I to understand that you have not taken him > > to the vet?? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > JImmy I would give it a try. If nothing else it will give you some clues as to what the problem is. If he shuns the box for the carpet when it is right there where he has been going then I'd look to the type of litter you are using and have his paws checked to make sure they are healed properly from the de-claw. My niece adopted an already de-clawed cat and he was fine with the litter box for a while. Then suddenly he started peeing in her son's room on the carpeting. It turns out he was having problems with his paw (bone chips or infection I don't remember which) and needed more surgery. OTOH if he uses the box when it is in his favorite spot you can leave it there for a while until he gets used to using a litter box exclusively again and then gradually try moving it to a spot you prefer more. Once you have him reliably using a box in any location you can decide what to do with the carpet/padding to totally eliminate the odor so he won't be as likely to go right back to that spot when/if you start moving the box. I'm not sure if you've tried covering his box (if open) or taking the cover off (if covered) to see if he has a preference. W > > Am I to understand that you have not taken him > > to the vet?? > > No: > You are to understand that Rutherford has been to the vet, and he checks out. > I have tried EVERY suggestion I have been given (with the exception of the > Prozac) and nothing has worked. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > piss where he likes - especially since I will have catered to him by making > it easier to go on the carpet by moving the box. Forgive the pun, but this is not a pissing contest. It isn't "Rutherford will win or Jimmy will win." Move the box and see what happens. I think he has either an undiagnosed medical problem or a behavioral problem caused by something else you are doing. Cats that do this either have medical issues OR they are trying to tell you something is making them very uncomfortable. There is no mystery to it, and there is no "being an a.shole" about it. Cats don't think like people. > Forgive the pun, but this is not a pissing contest. It isn't "Rutherford > will win or Jimmy will win." Move the box and see what happens. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > there is no "being an a.shole" about it. Cats don't think > like people. This reminded me of a funny incident when I was a child. My grandmother came for a visit for the weekend, and every time Taffy came near her, she glared at him, and said, "I don't like cats." That evening, she unpacked her small zippered suitcase, and put the empty suitcase, with the zipper flap open, on the floor in front of the dresser. Taffy strolled in, squatted in the suitcase while staring at my grandmother, and peed. That was the only time Taffy *ever* peed outside the litterbox his whole life, and I'm pretty sure he was being an a.shole, in retaliation. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." > > Forgive the pun, but this is not a pissing contest. It isn't "Rutherford > > will win or Jimmy will win." Move the box and see what happens. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > grandmother came for a visit for the weekend, and every time Taffy > came near her, she glared at him, and said, "I don't like cats." With all due respect to grandmother, who was the a.shole first? :) > That evening, she unpacked her small zippered suitcase, and put the > empty suitcase, with the zipper flap open, on the floor in front of [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > his whole life, and I'm pretty sure he was being an a.shole, > in retaliation. I do agree that they send messages with inappropriate elimination. But I don't think Jimmy's cat is all determined to pee whereever he wants. There is a problem, and speaking of a.sholes, it started with the a.sholes who declawed Rutherford then gave him up. While I'd agree that cats aren't responsible for some of the bull#$%# that humans participate in, they do seek revenge, and they definitely DO have personalities that have been shaped by their previous experiences mixed with the genetics of their basic personality. The permutations of those parameters suggest that there are many possibilities for errant behaviour. Cats can express themselves in only limited ways, so claws, noise & bodily fluids are usually the options. To correct this, (and before you ask, I have corrected 2 adult cats of my own - adopted at full grown) you need to think just like a cat, and only then will you understand that no amount of Dr Phil's "find out it's currency" will work with cats (although it does with dogs!) - they are simply too free-willed to be shaped with treats, affection/withdrawal. The main point here, is that in bringing what is obviously a free-ranging, semi-wild cat indoors, you are pushing it uphill thinking that it will respond in the desired human way. Just put yourself in the converse situation - how hard would it be for you if someone said "stop using the toilet, I want you to pee in the garden, especially when other animals are around - because that signifies that you are the boss here"??? It's going to take time & persistance. The absolute ideal situation considering no medical problems I would suggest, is building a run outside (if poss) to ease the transition. This way, it will begin to understand that it doesn't get punished for this behaviour outside, but does inside. It's all about understanding and catering to its natural instincts, and giving the cat hints on what's acceptable, where. And you definitely need to keep up on the negative reinforcement (water pistol & loud noise, preferably human). The cat will respond slowly, but don't expect miracles overnight. > "jimmy the LD" <jim.hutchison@gmailrunlikeanantelope.com> wrote in message > news:2qtn2vF13mc0kU1@uni-berlin.de... > > > Am I to understand that you have not taken him [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > there is no "being an a.shole" about it. Cats don't think > like people. [...] > The main point here, is that in bringing what is obviously a free-ranging, > semi-wild cat indoors, you are pushing it uphill thinking that it will > respond in the desired human way. Just put yourself in the converse > situation - how hard would it be for you if someone said "stop using the > toilet, I want you to pee in the garden, especially when other animals are > around - because that signifies that you are the boss here"??? I don't buy this. I have seen too many ferals and primarily outdoor cats take to the litter box. > It's going to take time & persistance. The absolute ideal situation > considering no medical problems I would suggest, is building a run outside [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > up on the negative reinforcement (water pistol & loud noise, preferably > human). The cat will respond slowly, but don't expect miracles overnight. Hey Jimmy, is it safe for Rutherford to go outside? > [...] > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Hey Jimmy, is it safe for Rutherford to go outside? We had a declawed cat who used to use our son's carpet instead of the litter box. We didn't have him declawed, his previous owner was made to get rid of him by her homeowner's association (usual petty dictators). I think that there is a definite possibility that being declawed means he doesn't like stepping on cat litter. Unfortunately we never figured that out at the time, but it makes sense. Do try the special cat litter that someone suggested. We did let this cat out, even though he was declawed, but he still came in and used the carpet, which I think shows the importance of breaking bad habits ASAP. > > Hey Jimmy, is it safe for Rutherford to go outside? > > > We had a declawed cat who used to use our son's carpet instead of the litter box. We didn't have him declawed, his previous owner was made to get rid of him by her homeowner's association (usual petty dictators). > I think that there is a definite possibility that being declawed means he doesn't like stepping on cat litter. Unfortunately we never figured that out at the time, but it makes sense. Do try the special cat litter that > someone suggested. I agree--I had a cat that was declawed--I actually had it done before I realized what it really was, no excuse, I know--and she didn't like to handle the litter either, so she would not cover her poo. I eventually trained her to by taking her paws and gently covering her mess. But I do think her mutilated paws had something to do with why she wouldn't cover it up. Have you considered getting the gel pearls type of cat litter? My cat had a paw pad infection and the vet said it was because of the clumping cat litter. In fact, when I stepped on it, it cut my foot too. (My cat gets her litter all over the place). Anyway, I bought this new type of litter and it seems to be kind to her paws. ~Melanie > No: > You are to understand that Rutherford has been to the vet, and he checks > out. > I have tried EVERY suggestion I have been given (with the exception of the > Prozac) and nothing has worked. I didn't see this thread before I answered your POLL thread. It does sound like his declawed paws could be an issue. Signaturejamie (jamiemck@newsguy.com) "There's a seeker born every minute." I'm sorry, but that sounds like illness to me. Desparate illness at that. I would bet anything he is ill. > To add insult to injury, I woke up this morning, let Rutherford out of the > bedroom to feed him, and discovered that he had pissed all over and in his [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Frustrated and sick of smelling the pee, > > Jimmy > I'm sorry, but that sounds like illness to me. Desparate illness at that. I > would bet anything he is ill. He's not lethargic or anything, and the vet says he's fine. > > I'm sorry, but that sounds like illness to me. Desparate illness at that. > I > > would bet anything he is ill. > > He's not lethargic or anything, and the vet says he's fine. I think you need a different vet. I'm sorry, but peeing in the water dish is NOT just behavioural. THERE IS SOMETHING PHYSICALLY WRONG WITH THIS CAT. Whether or not you want to believe it, there is. I also agree with Megan he may have a botched declaw job and if the vet you are taking him to did the surgery, you can BET he is going to say "Oh, there is nothing physically wrong". My current vet didn't perform the declawing surgery. I stated this several times before. We got Rutherford as a stray, and he had been neutered and declawed. Next? Jimmy, I reread your original post and it's clear you haven't brought Rutherford back to the vet since you posted the day before yesterday. I also got the impression that the vet you use is not a good one and that you yourself are unhappy with her. If you could post the city you're located in maybe one of us in the groups will know of a good vet you could take Rutherford to that's more interested in investigating, finding and fixing the cause of his problem, rather than selling you product. We really want to help you and Rutherford so you can relax and work this out. I know vet bills are a PITA, but if spending a few bucks results in you having the time to tell us cute stories about Rutherford because you aren't spending all hours of the day cleaning up cat pee, and he's feeling better too, don't you think that's worthwhile and in both your best interests? I know you have a good and caring heart from reading how you saved a starving and emaciated Rutherford and gave him a chance at a good life after someone else threw him away like so much garbage. Please listen to what we are saying. Many of us have been down the same road and have had to take the same steps we're recommending to you to find a solution. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > My current vet didn't perform the declawing surgery. > I stated this several times before. > > We got Rutherford as a stray, and he had been neutered and declawed. > > Next? Get the vet to examine his paws. Get a better vet. THERE IS SOMETHING PHYSICALLY WRONG WITH THIS CAT. | My current vet didn't perform the declawing surgery. | I stated this several times before. | | We got Rutherford as a stray, and he had been neutered and declawed. | | Next? Right, I take up the challenge, not without telling you though that I feel for you and your cat. Last desperate attempt, if everything so far has not worked: I'd give up the carpet for the sake of the cat - and pray for wisdom (not joking). Something is not right here, but I can't see what. Keep trying, please. Have you checked if there's blood in the urine yet (reddish colour)? A friend just stated this week that kidney failure is the most common cause for death with domestic cats. Good luck. Carola Peeing in the water dish may be the best thing yet. Cats learn in funny ways. A friend of mine once had a cat that learned to pee in THE TOILET! from humans. So funny, people used to bring their friends to watch it. The water dish doesn't correspond to cats to what humans think of as "eating spot - keep that clean" at all. Cats have no concept of germs, or other society-taught manners, only instinct shaped by experience. An experiment I woud try also is placing several "water dishes" around the house. If he starts going there, slowly decrease the amount of water in the dish, then introduce litter to the bowls. Once you have this association, you could build a "water bowl litterbox". Think slow change, just like the frog in water. > > > I'm sorry, but that sounds like illness to me. Desparate illness at > that. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > surgery, you can BET he is going to say "Oh, there is nothing physically > wrong". >He's not lethargic or anything, and the >vet says he's fine. A cat with bladder issue such as stones or Interstitial Cystitis, or regrowth or damage in the paws due to a butcher job, will not act lethargic. As of a few days ago you hadn't taken Rutherford to the vet. If you haven't taken him since then, you still need to do that. Problems can crop up quickly between vet visits, and if he has been to the vet and none of the tests I mentioned in my previous post to you have been done, it's impossible to know if Rutherford is "fine." Again, it is important to cover every possibility of a medical cause behind this behavior and rule these things out first. If you focus only on treating the behavior when the cause is actually a physical one, you're not going to make any progress. Unfortunately Rutherford can't sit down with you and tell you what his troubles are so you have to be a detective, so to speak , and discover the cause of his problem using the process of elimination...no pun intended :-) Again, I know this is a very frustrating and aggravating problem to have to deal with and I understand your feeling as though you're at the end of your rope, but please understand that Rutherford is truly pleading for your help in the only way he knows how. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > I'm sorry, but that sounds like illness to me. Desparate illness at that. I > would bet anything he is ill. I agree. The only time I ever saw this kind of overt urinating was a cat I took care of while his owner was away. He began peeing on wooden furniture in rooms with wood floors, right in front of me and right in front of his owner. I don't know if he ever took him to the vet, but several weeks later he found the cat dead in his storage shed, no visible injuries. | To add insult to injury, I woke up this morning, let Rutherford out of the | bedroom to feed him, and discovered that he had pissed all over and in his [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] | | Jimmy Yes! - Either you treat him very badly, - or this cat has a serious problem! I presume it's #2, so you need: - a lot of creativity and imagination to figure it out (it could well be a natural problem like that your carpet 'stinks') - a vet - a cat behaviourist. Well, to conclude: Your problem is not easy to solve - and - I feel and sympathise with you! Carola > To add insult to injury, I woke up this morning, let Rutherford out of the > bedroom to feed him, and discovered that he had pissed all over and in his [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Frustrated and sick of smelling the pee, > > Jimmy This is a funny cat. It seems you have a couple of choices. Put the litterbox on the piss spot, put a big piece of furniture on the piss spot, or electricute the piss spot. (kidding, kidding...) I suggest the litter box. You could of course, buy another house... Bluesman ummm, it doesn't sound to me like you've implemented all of our suggestions, yet. Perhaps you need to read through them all and make a list of things you should try (#1 - taking Rutherford back to the vets). > To add insult to injury, I woke up this morning, let Rutherford out of the > bedroom to feed him, and discovered that he had pissed all over and in his [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > Frustrated and sick of smelling the pee, > > Jimmy >Hi All: >Another update on Rutherford the Brave, the floor-pissing and wall-spraying >cat... (snip) >Frustrated and sick of smelling the pee, >Jimmy Jimmy, I just joined, so forgive me if I'm posting with info you've already received. Perhaps he wants a larger litter box. If it's an open box, try one of those enclosed types. Try a different type of litter. If it's an open box, and up against a wall, try moving it 8-12 inches away from the wall. (that solved the prob. with my floor pisser) Is he an only cat? If so, get him a companion from the shelter. Once they've gotten acquainted, maybe the new guy will show him the correct place to piss. Again, sorry if I'm just repeating what you've already heard - I'm supposed to be getting ready for work, and didn't have time to read all of the previous posts. I know first hand how frustrating and maddening it is when you have a floor pisser, because you love the little fart. Good luck. -bonbon > >Hi All: > >Another update on Rutherford the Brave, the floor-pissing and wall-spraying [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > > -bonbon My friend had a similiar problem...she ended up having to put her cat outside on a leash for about twenty minutes once every couple of hours. See if it works. Oh the reason she had to do that was because he was "too clean" of a cat to put his paws in the "dirty" litter. It didn't matter how often she changed the litter. HTH Sara |
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