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Update on Rutherford, my floor-pissing cat

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jimmy the LD - 07 Sep 2004 03:38 GMT
Okay, here's what I have experienced thus far:
We found a spot where Rutherford (my ever-so-pissing-on-the-floor cat) had
been spraying and squatting over and over, and we got some of that "Nature's
Miracle" stuff.  We wasted our money on that stuff - it didn't work at all.

Tonight, after spending a good amount of Sunday evening cleaning the carpet
where we found the piss, Rutherford trotted into the living room.  I walked
right with him, and he found a spot where I cleaned, he walked around it for
a few seconds, lifted his tail, and then sprayed the wall RIGHT IN FRONT OF
ME.

I am up in arms.  I have no idea what else to do.
We even bought some of that "NO-MARK" stuff and sprayed it.  It was
absolutely no deterrent.  He uses his litterbox regularly, and it is cleaned
regularly.

Any new suggestions?  I can't take this much longer.

Jimmy
http://music.jimhutchison.com/myrutherford.htm

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"...that simple light may rise out of complex darkness."
and don't forget to run like an antelope.

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Mary - 07 Sep 2004 04:03 GMT
> Tonight, after spending a good amount of Sunday evening cleaning the
carpet ...
>Rutherford trotted into the living room.  I walked
> right with him, and he found a spot where I cleaned, he walked around it for
> a few seconds, lifted his tail, and then sprayed the wall RIGHT IN FRONT OF
> ME.

This is a neutered cat, right?
Agua Girl - 07 Sep 2004 04:06 GMT
> Okay, here's what I have experienced thus far:
> We found a spot where Rutherford (my ever-so-pissing-on-the-floor cat) had
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Any new suggestions?  I can't take this much longer.

I'd try putting a liter box right on that spot.  Even if it's in
the middle of the room...just temporarily.  It seems he has
adopted it..what you need to do is physically prevent him
from being able to use it long enough for him to "un-adopt" it.

I'm not sure why he would be doing this.  Doesn't seem like
it's stress if he did it calmly right in front of you.  I have to
assume he is altered and that you have ruled out a medical
problem.

Do you have other cats?  Were they near the liter box
when he sprayed?

AG
jimmy the LD - 07 Sep 2004 04:22 GMT
> Do you have other cats?  Were they near the liter box
> when he sprayed?

Nope - no other cats, and only a 15 year old toy poodle, about the size of a
mini-soccerball.  He also uses his litterbox frequently, which completely
stuns me.  It just seems as though he has adopted this one 4X4 area of our
living room.

> It seems he has adopted it..what you need to do is physically prevent him
> from being able to use it long enough for him to "un-adopt" it

We're not really sure what you mean here; do you mean to say that we want
him to understand that it's NOT okay for him to piss on the wall and floor
there by adding his litterbox as a deterrent, or do you mean we should have
more than one litterbox...?

We'll try the litterbox-in-the-spot thing tomorrow.
Any other suggestions?  We're considering shelling out the mega moolah for
the Feliway...

To all:  Rutherford is a neutered, declawed hobo-kitty that we found on a
jobsite and adopted.  He's been to the vet, and he checks out.  No
infections, no Leukemia.

He's a cute bastard, which is why this is so difficult.
Check him out (I know I posted this before...):
http://music.jimhutchison.com/myrutherford.htm

Please keep the suggestions coming.
Jimmy and Emily
Dik F. Liu - 07 Sep 2004 04:36 GMT
>Nope - no other cats, and only a 15 year old toy poodle, about the size of a
>mini-soccerball.  He also uses his litterbox frequently, which completely
>stuns me.  It just seems as though he has adopted this one 4X4 area of our
>living room.

By now, he probably doesn't know this area from his litter box. Why don't you
place a rubber mat on top of the area until he gets pass the habit of peeing on
it? Cats are creatures of habits, you know.

Are you by chance using an ammonia based cleaning product?

Dik
jimmy the LD - 07 Sep 2004 04:54 GMT
> By now, he probably doesn't know this area from his litter box. Why don't you
> place a rubber mat on top of the area until he gets pass the habit of peeing on
> it? Cats are creatures of habits, you know.
>
> Are you by chance using an ammonia based cleaning product?

We were using an enzyme based cleaning product - or at least we THOUGHT it
was an enzyme based cleaner...
It's called "Nature's Miracle."  It left our carpet smelling worse of cat
urine than it was before (except now it smells MORE like ammonia/alcohol),
and we followed every direction to the letter.

SHOULD I be using an ammonia based cleaner?
I would assume that ammonia would attract him.

What about vinegar?  Isn't vinegar a good canine urine cleaner?

Jimmy
Gail - 07 Sep 2004 05:01 GMT
White vinegar is a good remover for urine.
Gail
>> By now, he probably doesn't know this area from his litter box. Why don't
> you
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Jimmy
Mike - 07 Sep 2004 05:06 GMT
That's the way it works. When you first moisturize the urine it will smell
worse. The enzymes in the product will dissolve the urine and turn it into,
as I recall, carbon dioxide and water.

You may have a saturated situation that requires carpet replacement but like
I said, I'd give Nature's Miracle a try for a few weeks. Let it saturate and
dry. Don't use anything else. Repeat as needed. Give it a few weeks. That's
how it worked for me.

Mike in Illinois

> We were using an enzyme based cleaning product - or at least we THOUGHT it
> was an enzyme based cleaner...
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Jimmy
Dik F. Liu - 07 Sep 2004 05:12 GMT
>SHOULD I be using an ammonia based cleaner?
>I would assume that ammonia would attract him.

Ammonia would make the entire room smell like giant litter box.

Dik
spamtrap - 07 Sep 2004 05:29 GMT
>>By now, he probably doesn't know this area from his litter box. Why don't
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> Jimmy

In addition to the other excellent suggestions you have got in this
thread - maybe having the carpet commercially cleaned might help? If you
haven't done this already that is.
Gail - 07 Sep 2004 04:59 GMT
He can be placed on antidepressant or anti-anxiety meds to eliminate
spraying.
Gail
>> Do you have other cats?  Were they near the liter box
>> when he sprayed?
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> Please keep the suggestions coming.
> Jimmy and Emily
Agua Girl - 07 Sep 2004 05:37 GMT
> > Do you have other cats?  Were they near the liter box
> > when he sprayed?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> there by adding his litterbox as a deterrent, or do you mean we should have
> more than one litterbox...?

More than one litter box may help but if you clean the one he
has daily than it probably isn't the problem.  The idea was to get
him to use a litter box INSTEAD of the carpet area.  I know he
does use it some but he also thinks the carpet is ok..it's like another
box for him.  I know when I am trying to convince Sasha not to scratch
something I put one of her cardboard scratch pads in front of it...but on
second thought the litter box would probably just reinforce the spot
as a potty area.  It would still help to block it off somehow.  A big
plastic mat or some thing that prevents him access.

> We'll try the litterbox-in-the-spot thing tomorrow.
> Any other suggestions?  We're considering shelling out the mega moolah for
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> jobsite and adopted.  He's been to the vet, and he checks out.  No
> infections, no Leukemia.

Feliway may not work.  It's basically a mood alterer like an
anti-depressant.
It doesn't seem to an emotional or stress issue...more like a bad habit that
needs to be unlearned.

> He's a cute bastard, which is why this is so difficult.
> Check him out (I know I posted this before...):
> http://music.jimhutchison.com/myrutherford.htm
>
> Please keep the suggestions coming.
> Jimmy and Emily

He is a cutie.  I'm sure you guys will work it out.  I can understand
the difficulty in dealing with a spraying cat.  It makes it physically
difficult to share living quarters with them :-) but you don't sound
like your giving up yet.

AG
Enfilade - 08 Sep 2004 13:32 GMT
Cats will not piss where they eat.  Put a bowl of food in the area
where he has been pissing.  Right now, the fact that he keeps using
this area shows that he sees it as a toilet.  With the presence of
food he will be forced to see it as a dinnertable.

Also use cleaning products to try to remove the piss smell, and maybe
put out another litterbox somewhere--he may think it's too far to walk
to the other one and just wants a potty closer to that location.
Especially at his age.  A more convenient second litterbox may be a
more appealing alternative than pissing at the "new table".

--Fil
rinn - 08 Sep 2004 16:40 GMT
I put food down where my cats were peeing and they practically peed right in
the food bowls!!!!

> Cats will not piss where they eat.  Put a bowl of food in the area
> where he has been pissing.  Right now, the fact that he keeps using
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> --Fil
Trish - 08 Sep 2004 23:59 GMT
haha, my cat uses my dog's bowl as a litter.  well ok, the dog drives the
cat nuts so maybe its justifiable revenge!

> I put food down where my cats were peeing and they practically peed right in
> the food bowls!!!!
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> >
> > --Fil
Wendy - 07 Sep 2004 12:34 GMT
> > Do you have other cats?  Were they near the liter box
> > when he sprayed?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Any other suggestions?  We're considering shelling out the mega moolah for
> the Feliway...

This is the cheapest I've found Feliway. http://www.biovets.com/ Someone
else might know a cheaper site but I haven't found it.

> To all:  Rutherford is a neutered, declawed hobo-kitty that we found on a
> jobsite and adopted.  He's been to the vet, and he checks out.  No
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Please keep the suggestions coming.
> Jimmy and Emily

I've found Nature's Miracle to be a waste of money as well. Someone else
posted the following:

From an old post:

"I recommend ODOKLEEN to remove any urine or feces (it
requires lots of rinsing, though - a wet vac works wonders for this),
and then treating the area with ODOKILL or NODOR to remove the odor.
I have yet to find an odor which is not removed using NODOR.  ODOKLEEN
and ODOKILL are available through pet supply stores.  NODOR is made by
Nu-Scents in Knoxville, TN, USA.  They are a very small company and do
not ship outside of NA.   Their product can be ordered in the US by
credit card by calling 1*(800)*262*9366.  They ship via UPS. They are
very nice people.  NODOR will kill male spray smell."

HTH,

--

OTOH it might be easier and cheaper in the long run to have the carpet
professionally done by a firm that deals with pet odors. It might be
necessary to replace a section of the padding to completely get rid of the
odor.

I also remember someone suggesting getting one of those plastic carpet
runners that have the nubs on the underside and putting it on the spot
upside down. The cat isn't supposed to like walking on the nubs.

I'd set up another litter box anyway. Some cats don't like using a box if it
already has poop in it and lets face it short of following them around 24/7
the box is going to be dirty (by their definition) at some point until you
have a chance to clean it.

W
B&S - 09 Sep 2004 15:03 GMT
>> > Do you have other cats?  Were they near the liter box
>> > when he sprayed?
>
> I've found Nature's Miracle to be a waste of money as well.

(SNIP)

We also found Nature's Miracle to be a waste of money.  The only thing that
worked for us was to paint over (almost seal in) the areas where the cat had
peed.  Of course this was on cement, which we then carpeted over.

The things we tried that did not work were:
Nature's Miracle
Some other really expensive enzyme cleaner from the vet
white vinegar
numerous other cleaners (like Lysol, Mr. Clean, etc)
even bleach didn't work

With our puppy pee the best thing is using our Hoover Steam Vac over and
over on the spot.  We didn't have that when the cat decided to pee.  : /

But I would definitely replace the pad under the area, and paint the sub
floor in addition to a steam vac.  If any got on the wall, clean that well
and paint it also.  We needed to completely eliminate the smell to stop him
from peeing in the area again.  And while we were doing this, we blocked him
from the area so he couldn't use it again.

Is there a way to block him from the area and have appropriate litter boxes
elsewhere until he can unlearn this nasty habit?  My college roomate's cat
used to spray/pee everywhere, but when she moved (and got away from the
smell I assume) he only peed where he was supposed to.  (Yes, he was
neutered).

Good luck!!!!!!  I feel your pain.  : )

Shelly
Pat - 10 Sep 2004 22:50 GMT
> He's a cute bastard, which is why this is so difficult.
> Check him out (I know I posted this before...):
> http://music.jimhutchison.com/myrutherford.htm

There don't seem to be any pictures on that page. All I see are image
placeholders.

The floor under your carpet probably needs deodorizing too.
mlbriggs - 11 Sep 2004 01:02 GMT
>> He's a cute bastard, which is why this is so difficult.
>> Check him out (I know I posted this before...):
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> The floor under your carpet probably needs deodorizing too.

He is a very handsome kitty!   MLB
M.C. Mullen - 07 Sep 2004 12:17 GMT
| > a few seconds, lifted his tail, and then sprayed the wall RIGHT IN FRONT
| OF
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
|
| AG

It seems he's marking because he does not like the smell on the spot.
I had the same problem with the dog. I could put the rug into the washing
mashine, but she still marked - until I got a new one. Now I have peace.
Here's something to cheer you up: I took the backpack out of the attic in
order to use it for a school trip (I'm a teacher). Darling Micky the cat
sprayed on it. Guess what sort of smell followed me all the time? Well, he
made sure I didn't forget about him while I was away :-)

Carola
DL Farnworth - 07 Sep 2004 16:48 GMT
...
| It seems he's marking because he does not like the smell on the spot.
| I had the same problem with the dog. I could put the rug into the washing
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
|
| Carola
...

When I flew to Russia (12 hour flight) I carried on a
gym bag which, unknown to me, Baby had gotten at before
I left.  She hates anyone leaving.

I put it under the seat ahead and the scent wafted
back.  Disconcerting.  I had to keep turning around to
glare behind me.
rinn - 07 Sep 2004 18:29 GMT
We're dealing with cat peeing problems, also.
Here are the steps we are taking this week (cat was just at the vets on
Thursday)
1)  cat is now on .5 mg of prozac (real people prozac!!) for anti-anxiety
2) we bought plastic carpet runner and have put it in places kitty has peed
(sharp pointy things side-up).
This stuff is pretty cheap - only $1.50 a linear foot.  We think we're going
to have to carpet the whole house with it and only leave paths for us to
walk on!!
As for the nature's miracle - I couldn't get it to work, either. I use 'Get
Serious' which I found on the web. It works pretty well. It does stink when
we apply it - its re-activiating any urine that has dried. I scrub it in
really well - it gets real foamy -  then let it sit for about 15 minutes,
then blot up as much as I can - until the carpet feels dry. I cover the area
so the cat can't return (I usually prop some pieces of wood up on some
veggie cans)   I then keep a fan running on it for a couple of days to give
it a good chance to dry.

The cat we are having problems with was indoor-only.  We started letting him
and his brother out just last Monday (they have 3 older step-brothers to
watch them outside, along with us). We have seen a huge change in their
confidence level, and they are much more affectionate towards us.  Plus, the
litter boxes have been emptier.

I hope this helps. It is such a big job keeping up with them.

> Okay, here's what I have experienced thus far:
> We found a spot where Rutherford (my ever-so-pissing-on-the-floor cat) had
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Jimmy
> http://music.jimhutchison.com/myrutherford.htm
Mary - 07 Sep 2004 20:47 GMT
>Okay, here's what I have experienced thus far:
>We found a spot where Rutherford (my ever-so-pissing-on-the-floor cat) had
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>a few seconds, lifted his tail, and then sprayed the wall RIGHT IN FRONT OF
>ME.

I use a small bissell carpet cleaner. First I put water on the area with carpet
cleaner, then I suck that up with the bissell. Then I do it again. After I've
sucked up all the urine I can, I let it dry then use nature's miracle. It will
still smell like cat urine for a little bit. Then I spray no mark.

You could also try putting a carpet runner upside down on that spot then it
will be physically impossible for him to  pee there. Or you could put a heavy
large object over the spot. I would also give him an extra litter box.

If that fails, try the drugs. I'd also get a cloth collar, spray feliway or no
mark on the collar, let it dry then put it on him.

Because he did it right in front of you he is trying to send you a message. My
cat does this when he has a urinary tract infection but I think it may be the
dog that your cat has issues with because you said you cat is healthy.
AC - 11 Sep 2004 22:53 GMT
The only way you're going to shape a cat that old, assuming good health, is
with a water pistol & a very loud & angry voice/noise.

Think like a cat, and you're half way there!

First thing to try, would be to banish him from that room for a month, and
see if he does it elsewhere. If not, there's an unquantifiable cat quality
about the particular spot that should respond to the treatment below,
suggested. Good luck!

You'll have to be his shadow for quite a while, and combine the three
whenever it looks like he's about to do the business. Don't worry, he won't
take it personally, since you'll only do it when he's spraying.

It won't take too many times of you catching him before he learns, cats are
quick learners. If he transfers the behaviour, perhaps there's a
personality/dominance issue to address.

> Okay, here's what I have experienced thus far:
> We found a spot where Rutherford (my ever-so-pissing-on-the-floor cat) had
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Jimmy
> http://music.jimhutchison.com/myrutherford.htm
 
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