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Need help with alternatives to declawing

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Corduroy - 05 Sep 2004 00:38 GMT
Hi. My wife and I are considering have our two year old cat Sydney declawed
because my wife is pregnant and due within a month. Sydney has her very stinky
moments where she bites and scratches. We have tried to train her and give her
scrathing pots and toys to relieve tension, but her behavior has not changed.
We also have two bunnies that she likes to chase, which aggrivates the heck out
of me when she does it. So I did some research on declawing, and as much as it
worries me and I do not like it, I can't find any alternatives that could last
long term. I have seen the SoftPaws, the little covers you slip on their nails,
but I still don't think that would be enough. Any ideas would be greatly
appreciated. Thanks.
Ted Davis - 05 Sep 2004 02:07 GMT
>Hi. My wife and I are considering have our two year old cat Sydney declawed
>because my wife is pregnant and due within a month. Sydney has her very stinky
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>but I still don't think that would be enough. Any ideas would be greatly
>appreciated. Thanks.

Frequent claw clipping, perhaps with a bit of dressing with an emery
board or file after clipping.  Unfortunately, some cats will not put
up with this and they have to be restrained by at least one extra
person or sedated.

My Millie is that way, and I'm trying to train her to sharpen her
claws on emery cloth I taped to the table leg she is in the process of
reducing to sawdust.

--
T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu)
Luvskats00 - 05 Sep 2004 04:39 GMT
twiggystoy@aol.com  (Corduroy)
writes

>"My wife and I are considering have >our two year old cat Sydney >declawed..."

I understand that there's a new baby on the way. Congrats!  I also read that
there's a problem w/the rabbits and the cat.  Since declawing is amputation,
it's not the answer.  First, the claws should be trimmed.  Have the vet
demonstrate.  Also, you can consult a cat behaviorist for alternatives.  A
feline behaviorist is a specialist (usually a vet or someone w/experience and
education in cat behavior/psychology). You can learn how to teach your cat that
scratching isn't acceptable.
Rhonda - 05 Sep 2004 04:57 GMT
I have heard that declawing can make them even more aggressive, because
they have lost one of their natural defenses. More than once I've heard
that cats have become aggressive biters in its place.

Do you have any other cats? Maybe if she had a friend to play with and
chase (hopefully they would take turns chasing each other...) -- it
would relieve some of her energy.

Good luck,

Rhonda

> Hi. My wife and I are considering have our two year old cat Sydney declawed
> because my wife is pregnant and due within a month. Sydney has her very stinky
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> but I still don't think that would be enough. Any ideas would be greatly
> appreciated. Thanks.
EdDiggstds - 05 Sep 2004 05:53 GMT
>Subject: Need help with alternatives to declawing
>From: twiggystoy@aol.com  (Corduroy)
>Date: 9/4/2004 6:38 PM US Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <20040904193822.18779.00000202@mb-m01.aol.com>

>Hi. My wife and I are considering have our two year old cat Sydney declawed
>because my wife is pregnant and due within a month. Sydney has her very
>stinky
>moments where she bites and scratches. We have tried to train her and give
>her
>scrathing pots and toys to relieve

>tension, but her behavior has not changed.
>We also have two bunnies that she likes to chase, which aggrivates the heck
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>worries me and I do not like it, I can't find any alternatives that could
>last

>long term. I have seen the SoftPaws, the little covers you slip on their
>nails,
>but I still don't think that would be enough. Any ideas would be greatly
>appreciated. Thanks.

Since you are an AOL member you should  go to the AOL cat message boards and
look under cat health and read the declawing alternatives discussions.
In my opinion declawing is always wrong. It can cause severe health and
behaverial problebms.
Cats by their very nature will chase bunnies but since your cat has not harmed
them she considers them part of the family and is just playing.
Is she biting and scratching during rough play or is she scratching furniture?
If furniture you could put a slipcover over it and do more scratching post
training?
She will not harm a new baby if you introduce the baby to her. But you should
not leave her and the baby together unsupervised.
Nails can be trimmed so they have no sharp points and from what I have read
soft paws do work.
Sydney will thank you for letting her keep her claws as I know you will since
you are here looking for alternatives.

Ed
Corduroy - 05 Sep 2004 07:29 GMT
Thanks for the replies so far.

Ed, she scratches the furniture sometimes, but the problem is she scratches and
bites while we play with her. The doctors have said she could do that when she
is overstimulated, but she will come to one of us for some rubs, then after a
minute she'll bite or scratch. I'm just so scared she will do it to the baby
someday.
M.C. Mullen - 05 Sep 2004 11:42 GMT
| Thanks for the replies so far.
|
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
| minute she'll bite or scratch. I'm just so scared she will do it to the baby
| someday.

All my cats do this.
As long as the baby does not get her stimulated (and it won't for quite a
while <grin>), there is nothing to worry about. It's not a good idea to use
the hands to play with cats. Objects are better. We've got ping pong balls,
squeaky mice, a furry toy that makes a sound etc. The cats love all that or
just a string pulled in front of them. Please don't declaw your cat. I
believe it would do more harm than good.

Good luck to you all!

Carola
rpl - 05 Sep 2004 15:32 GMT
> Thanks for the replies so far.

Hmm, you might want read one of my other posts before you thank me (it
was written before this last post of yours).

> she scratches the furniture sometimes,

Get a scratching post,
rub in some catnip,
say "NO" and move her to the (nearby) post when she starts in on the sofa,
soon you'll just have to say "No" to stop her,
then soon after that she'll always use that post.

A scratching post is necessary for the cat's physical health; it's not a
plaything.

> but the problem is she scratches and
> bites while we play with her.

When cats play-fight, they use their claws and teeth to grab the other
cat's fur; she probably doesn't know that it hurts you.

Either that or she figures you outweigh her by a couple hundred pounds
and she's just evening things up a little. :)

> The doctors have said she could do that when she
> is overstimulated,

(As a general rule) if her pupils are dilated then she's playing
seriously, but still playing; if her ears are laid back then she's
overstimulated, ie: you've wound her up and she's half-serious about the
attack.
If this is happening, let your hand go limp and just let her bite and
scratch you for a second or two 'til you're officially "dead" (it's your
fault, not hers, you teased her too much). I mean she's a two pound cat,
you can let her win the occasional game, eh?

> but she will come to one of us for some rubs, then after a
> minute she'll bite or scratch.

Just stop petting her when she does that.

> I'm just so scared she will do it to the baby
> someday.

You've got to be kidding; what possible scenario do you see where the
cat would bite or scratch your baby?

Oh, I get it (I think); you think that because the cat scratches you
when you tease her too much that she's going to actively attack your
child???

I'd laugh but you're apparently going to mutilate her because you don't
know much about cats. She can tell your baby is a baby (just like you
can tell a kitten is a baby), and that it doesn't fall into the prey or
peer category; if anything she may feel protective of the child.

I guess that was the important sentence in this post: "(the child)
doesn't fall into the prey or peer category" - the cat won't see the
baby as something to be attacked no matter what.

(You on the other hand are a peer and a rather dense one at that from
the cat's point-of-view; you never let her win and don't instinctively
know when to stop petting her)

Anyways, the very worst you can expect is if she tries to help when
you're changing diapers.

(You'll probably not want to mention to the wife that if Sydney had a
good kitty mother she might eventually try to teach your kid how to
catch mice)

On a quite serious note, declawing her will prove harmful to your child;
eventually junior is going to be strong enough that if he/she grabs the
cat, she's not going to be able to break free without biting or
scratching. Scratching is preferable (and is certainly the cat's first
choice) and pretty harmless.

On the other hand a dislocated leg or broken tail is very easy to
inflict by a child on an unarmed cat and *very* difficult to heal
properly if at all.

pat
/endrant
Rhonda - 05 Sep 2004 16:00 GMT
I can't imagine a cat that would just go up to a baby and attack. Now
when the baby becomes a toddler and wants to "chase the kitty," probably
some learning will happen on both parts.

One thing I've done to our overly-playful kitten that wants to attack my
hand, is to do a fake cry. Every time he starts to bite I let out this
crying or screaming sound like it really hurts. He got the hint fairly
soon. He would bite, I would scream, he'd stare at me, he start to bite
again, I'd scream again, he'd back off. After a few episodes, he started
biting gentler, I still screamed, now he has stopped!

It also helps to never ever use your hand as a toy.

Good luck,

Rhonda

> Thanks for the replies so far.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> minute she'll bite or scratch. I'm just so scared she will do it to the baby
> someday.
rpl - 05 Sep 2004 10:44 GMT
Hi,

This might help somewhat, it's a checklist (as noted) of what I feel you
need to do to make things run smoother what with the new baby and
existing pets. I'm sure some if not all of the points are dead-obvious,
but hopefully you find it helpful.

pat

CHECKLIST:

PART I - Before Baby Arrives

Purchases:
- Advantage (or similar) flea drops, *not* a flea-collar (ask your vet)
- New scratching post
- Organic petsmell deodorizer (such as Atmosklear mentioned in another
thread)
- Grooming/flea combs/brushes
- 6 months worth of (non-perishable) petfoods
- 6 months worth of kitty-litter/rabbitstuff
- nightlights

Appointments:
- to the vet with all pets for checkups/shots
- to the groomer (find one) for grooming and instructions on how to keep
your pets from shedding

Environment:
- Scope out all the places where you will be putting the crib/babychair
-- Remove anything that could be knocked over into the crib/chair from
shelves or tables
-- forget the "Baby's Educational Mobile above the crib" idea
- Scope out all the places/paths where you will be carrying the child
-- Reemplace all pet areas (foodbowls, litter trays, scratching posts,
catbeds) well away from these paths... consider tails as well
-- Ensure that paths are well lit by nightlights

Routines:
- learn to groom the cat to keep the fur from flying
- develop a strict timely routine of feeding/watering
- """"" changing the litter

PART II - After the Baby Arrives

Routines:
- Do not allow the cat on the changing-table
- Don't lock the cat in the room with the baby (this is for the cat's
sanity)
- At night (when you're sleeping) lock the cat *out* of the room with
the baby (this is for your sanity)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Of course you might be asking yourself "Why should I do all this? I've
got a baby on the way", however most of the advice given is based on the
"ounce of prevention" theory, especially during the first half year or
so of your child's life where you will be run ragged.

You need to get your pets checked over thoroughly at the vets to ensure
they're okay and shots to make sure they stay that way. If you currently
need flea preventative measures, the drops are easily as effective as a
collar and you're child won't be able to ingest insecticide.

The stop at a professional groomers is mostly to learn the best way to
keep your cat from shedding along with the brush/comb purchases. The
deodorizer is insurance in case kitty gets too stressed out and starts
peeing in inappropriate places. But we're trying to prevent that, so
we're starting a constant, predictable routine of watering, feeding,
litter-changing and grooming to make sure she (and you) aren't stressed out.

The "buy half a years worth of pet supplies" point is worth it just for
the look on the clerk's face when you say "it's because a baby's on the
way", however neither you nor your pet needs the easily-avoided stress
of running out of food or litter.

Your cat is a cat, and at 2am when you're wandering around the house in
darkness after being awake for 48 hours, and cradling a baby that just
fell asleep, her tail is gonna be right where you step unless you can
see where you're going at all times; thus the nightlights. And even if
you don't step on her, treading on a dish of catfood in your bare feet
isn't high up on the list of pleasurable experiences. Don't move it out
of the room, just into a corner or something, and let her get used to
the change, now, instead of after mommy comes home with the new
bundle-of-joy.

pat
rpl - 05 Sep 2004 11:34 GMT
> Hi. My wife and I are considering have our two year old cat Sydney declawed
> because my wife is pregnant and due within a month.

What's the connection?

> Sydney has her very stinky moments where she bites and scratches.

Which are caused by what? And what is she biting and scratching?

> We have tried to train her and give her
> scrathing pots and toys to relieve tension,

A scratching post is *not* a toy.

> but her behavior has not changed.

What behaviour?

> We also have two bunnies that she likes to chase, which aggrivates the heck out
> of me when she does it.

You have a cat and you have bunnies... what part of that don't you
understand?

> So I did some research on declawing, and as much as it
> worries me and I do not like it, I can't find any alternatives that could last
> long term.

Well, declawing certainly is long-term; let's see...

a) the cat's "knuckles" are removed as well as the claws... yup, that's
long term alright.

b) the cat will have balance problems due to the above... some cats
learn to rebalance so that might not be long-term.

c) most cats develop behavioural problems...

d) most cats start biting more and harder... might even leave some
long-term scars.

Look, if you're seriously thinking about getting the cat declawed then
seriously think about giving her to a competent owner, because that's
just abuse. Declawing is illegal in most civilized nations, and fast
becoming so in the rest. Most vets won't and I wouldn't trust the ones
that would.

> I have seen the SoftPaws, the little covers you slip on their nails,

Heard of them... if I had an authentic Louis XIV living-room set and
million-dollar hanging rugs I might consider it, but as it is I have 5
cats who share a single scratching post and don't scratch anything else
(unless held against their will and provoked).

> but I still don't think that would be enough.

Enough for what? You haven't mentioned any problems yet:

The cat chases rabbits... well, duh, it's a cat (and my bets are the
rabbits don't mind; I've seen a cat and a rabbit playing tag); not
curable by declawing (unless the cat gets so depressed it doesn't want
to play).

Your wife/SO is pregnant... not the cat's fault and also not cureable by
declawing.

And your cat has "very stinky moments"... what, like kitty PMS or
something where she comes tearing out of the kitchen, severs your major
arteries and eats your left foot?

pat
thecriles - 05 Sep 2004 14:10 GMT
We have to male cats--Romeo (3 years) and Onyx (2 years).  They are our
"boys"!

I guess that I will be called a heathon.  We tried everything--spraying the
furniture with special deterrant, spraying the cats with water when they
scratched the furniture.  We have always had a scratching post, which they
love, but didn't help them from scratching the furniture.  We both work
during the day and we finally concluded that unless we can be there at all
hours of the day to train them, that they would never stop scratching.

So, after many months of worrying about our cats scratching and researching
the options, we talked to our vet about getting our cats declawed.  He told
us our options.  But he also said, the only thing that will work long term
is declawing.  He is a great vet that I trust with my own life.  We finally,
with hesitation, decided to do declaw the cats.  They are completely indoor
cats and will remain that way as we live in a large city.  They have NEVER
had any of the issues that you all describe.  Life is so much happier in our
home now.  No balance issues--in fact they have balanced on things, that I
wouldn't think any cat could!  They are NOT more aggressive--one of our cats
is a complete scaredy cat!  They do not bite more.  I just think many of
those things are exaggerated to deter people from declawing their cats.

I'm not saying this is the option for everyone.  I just wanted you to have a
different opinion.  Our decision was not made lightly and there was a time
that I felt like a horrible "mother".  One of our cats was uncomfortable for
about a day.  Our other cat didn't even seem to notice he had surgery.  They
are now both happy cats who don't get in trouble for scratching anymore!

EC

> > Hi. My wife and I are considering have our two year old cat Sydney declawed
> > because my wife is pregnant and due within a month.
[quoted text clipped - 67 lines]
>
> pat
rpl - 05 Sep 2004 17:48 GMT
> We have to male cats--Romeo (3 years) and Onyx (2 years).  They are our
> "boys"!
>
> I guess that I will be called a heathon.  

more on that...

> We tried everything--spraying the
> furniture with special deterrant, spraying the cats with water when they
> scratched the furniture.  We have always had a scratching post, which they
> love, but didn't help them from scratching the furniture.  We both work
> during the day and we finally concluded that unless we can be there at all
> hours of the day to train them, that they would never stop scratching.

You had them declawed not because of their behaviour as pets but because
of something that you were lacking as owners, ie: time, though I will
grant that since "scratching" is also "marking territory" and you have 2
male cats, you'd've had your hands full even if you could have found the
time (I managed it, but not by much, with two intact male cats)

I gave my (favorite of the litter) kitten to a couple (friends of a
friend); several months down the road and she was scratching the TV
speaker grille (no idea if they had a scratching post): they could've
gone to a woodworking shop and spent $40 on a custom-made (and catproof)
speaker-grille that looked/acted better than the original; instead they
went to a clinic and spent $75 getting her declawed.

> So, after many months of worrying about our cats scratching and researching
> the options, we talked to our vet about getting our cats declawed.  He told
> us our options.  But he also said, the only thing that will work long term
> is declawing.  He is a great vet that I trust with my own life.  

I would much rather have a vet that I can trust with my cats' lives.

A quick perusal of other posts here will quickly point out at least two
other "long term" options: "Soft Paws" or simply trimming the cats'
nails occasionally; though, like training, they involve a bit of the
owners' time. And you've now traded in the one-shot time it would've
taken to get the cats not to scratch the furniture for the ongoing time
to keep the cats from "making a break for it".

> We finally,
> with hesitation, decided to do declaw the cats.  They are completely indoor
> cats and will remain that way as we live in a large city.  They have NEVER
> had any of the issues that you all describe.  

Good to hear.

> Life is so much happier in our
> home now.  

For your sense of propriety, almost certainly... I doubt the cats'
quality of life was improved except in the "now our owners aren't pissed
off at us" category.

> No balance issues--in fact they have balanced on things, that I
> wouldn't think any cat could!  They are NOT more aggressive--one of our cats
> is a complete scaredy cat!  

I haven't heard the "more aggressive" claim. My contention was
behavioural problems, though I wouldn't go so far as to claim your
"scaredy cat" as one (mostly because it's too easy).

> They do not bite more.  

The common "wisdom" is it's a substitute for scratching.

> I just think many of
> those things are exaggerated to deter people from declawing their cats.

Could be; personally I don't even tolerate the vet clipping their nails
(unless they're broken); you understand that if one of your boys slips
out the door he's doubly screwed in a confrontation with another animal;
can't fight and can't climb a tree.

> I'm not saying this is the option for everyone.  I just wanted you to have a
> different opinion.  

Well thanks, and I hope your cats are happy in spite of your selfish
decision.

But you realize the OP was apparently considering declawing his cat out
of fear (and ignorance) that the cat was going to harm his baby; not
only that, but that declawing would somehow protect his child as an
infant if the cat were so inclined? (absurd and absurd)

Small children are generally hell on family pets, too.

> Our decision was not made lightly and there was a time
> that I felt like a horrible "mother".  One of our cats was uncomfortable for
> about a day.  Our other cat didn't even seem to notice he had surgery.  

Occasionally the vet will forget and trim one of my cats' nails; I've
noticed that they are very clumsy until the nails grow out (even
discounting the resident drama queen's award-winning mournful act when
it happened to her).  While I have no doubt they may adapt to an extent,
it is a practice that is harmful to the cat and in no way beneficial.

> They
> are now both happy cats who don't get in trouble for scratching anymore!

And if you brought them in for full-body electrolysis, they wouldn't get
into trouble for shedding all over the furniture.... hey! a couple snips
of the old vocal chords and now they don't have to worry about you being
ticked when they meow at night. Wow, some pigshit happy cats. Damn, if
you had them stuffed and mounted, they'd be ecstatic because you
wouldn't have to change their smelly litter anymore.

But I'm not particularly inclined to call you "heathen", though,
realistically..... what word would *you* use to describe a person who
defies and defiles our God-given stewardship of the animal-kingdom for
the sake of the cosmetics of a man-made piece of furniture?

<cough>...um, anyways...

personally I just get the feeling my cats are happy in the knowledge
that even though I'm always kicking them off the chair I want to sit on,
forcing them to take a measly half of the bed, and occasionally drag
them literally kicking and screaming to the vets, they retain the
built-in option of tearing me apart... "but not today, maybe tomorrow
we'll kill him" <grin>.

pat

If you've read this far, you may get the impression that I'm against
declawing as a solution for housecats that scratch the furniture... and
you'd be right, but since I'm very tired at the moment, I'm probably
coming across maybe just a tad more acerbic than usual.
Agua Girl - 05 Sep 2004 17:27 GMT
> But I'm not particularly inclined to call you "heathen", though,
> realistically..... what word would *you* use to describe a person who
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> built-in option of tearing me apart... "but not today, maybe tomorrow
> we'll kill him" <grin>.

Personally I think that was well said.
I don't want my cat to scratch my furniture or climb on the kitchen
counters leaving hair all over my cooking space or even
swat at my ankles when I walk by because she wants attention.....
but I choose to make a space for her in my home and these
are things that cats do.  I can't "improve" on her as a pet.  She
is what she is.  I can train her to respect my space, I can provide
her with alternatives for scratching and climbing but I still have
to decide what is more important to me.  Having a cat in my
life with all the pros and cons that come with it, or having a
nice place.  Physically altering the cat to meet my needs (not the
cats) seems ridiculous to me.  If I didn't want anything that scratched
or shed or climbed I could have gotten a turtle.
Luckily my cats have always been trainable and I was able to protect
anything I would rather not have destroyed but if I couldn't, I would
have still chosen my cat over the object.  Cats are living breathing
animals that add far more richness to my life than any piece of
furniture ever could.

AG
thecriles - 06 Sep 2004 07:04 GMT
> > But I'm not particularly inclined to call you "heathen", though,
> > realistically..... what word would *you* use to describe a person who
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> but I choose to make a space for her in my home and these
> are things that cats do.  I can't "improve" on her as a pet.

So did you not spay her as well??  That's another form of changing an
animal--one that almost everyone does.

She
> is what she is.  I can train her to respect my space, I can provide
> her with alternatives for scratching and climbing but I still have
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> AG
Agua Girl - 06 Sep 2004 13:43 GMT
> So did you not spay her as well??  That's another form of changing an
> animal--one that almost everyone does.

Yes, and if she got cancer I would have the tumor removed.
The difference is doing something for the sake for the animal
and doing something for the sake of a stick of furniture.
I put animals, all animals (including unwanted kittens) above
"things".  But hey..that's just me and my outlook...feel free
to worship at the feet of Lazy-Boy.

AG
MarAzul - 05 Sep 2004 20:36 GMT
<snip>
> Occasionally the vet will forget and trim one of my cats' nails; I've
> noticed that they are very clumsy until the nails grow out (even
> discounting the resident drama queen's award-winning mournful act when it
> happened to her).  While I have no doubt they may adapt to an extent, it
> is a practice that is harmful to the cat and in no way beneficial.

Do you trim your cats claws then? Or do you just rely on the scratching
post? I only ask because my cats use posts but still need to be trimmed
occasionally..

> personally I just get the feeling my cats are happy in the knowledge that
> even though I'm always kicking them off the chair I want to sit on,
> forcing them to take a measly half of the bed, and occasionally drag them
> literally kicking and screaming to the vets, they retain the built-in
> option of tearing me apart... "but not today, maybe tomorrow we'll kill
> him" <grin>.

LOL

Mar
--------------------------------------------------
If the poodle got loose, I figured I could take it. I was armed.
- Laurell K. Hamilton from the Anita Blake series
rpl - 06 Sep 2004 01:50 GMT
> Do you trim your cats claws then? Or do you just rely on the scratching
> post? I only ask because my cats use posts but still need to be trimmed
> occasionally..

Well, I don't normally (there is a set of clippers around here
somewhere), but they're outdoorsey types; maybe I've been lucky, but
with the exception of the boys who used to get into fights alot they're
usually fine (and quite sharp). I do check every couple weeks (probably
not often enough).

pat
thecriles - 06 Sep 2004 07:11 GMT
> > We have to male cats--Romeo (3 years) and Onyx (2 years).  They are our
> > "boys"!
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> I would much rather have a vet that I can trust with my cats' lives.

Well, duh I do!!

> A quick perusal of other posts here will quickly point out at least two
> other "long term" options: "Soft Paws" or simply trimming the cats'
> nails occasionally; though, like training, they involve a bit of the
> owners' time. And you've now traded in the one-shot time it would've
> taken to get the cats not to scratch the furniture for the ongoing time
> to keep the cats from "making a break for it".

We live in a condo with inside access--if my cats were to escape, I'm sure
they'd have a hard time fending themselves against other people's doors!!
Oh and maybe the elevator!  :)

> > We finally,
> > with hesitation, decided to do declaw the cats.  They are completely indoor
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> Well thanks, and I hope your cats are happy in spite of your selfish
> decision.

Did you neuter your cats?

> But you realize the OP was apparently considering declawing his cat out
> of fear (and ignorance) that the cat was going to harm his baby; not
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> you had them stuffed and mounted, they'd be ecstatic because you
> wouldn't have to change their smelly litter anymore.

Well, I wouldn't go so far to say all of this about me!  I just think that
it's BS that cat's shouldn't be declawed.  We neuter/spay cats not only for
them, but because we don't want the consequences of more stray cats, cats in
heat, cats spraying.  Are these not selfish reasons as well?  No one even
bats an eye at that!!  It just seems contradictive to me!

> But I'm not particularly inclined to call you "heathen", though,
> realistically..... what word would *you* use to describe a person who
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> you'd be right, but since I'm very tired at the moment, I'm probably
> coming across maybe just a tad more acerbic than usual.
rpl - 06 Sep 2004 12:34 GMT
> "rpl" <plinnane3NO@SPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message

> Did you neuter your cats?

Yup, feel free to peruse my old posts for the anguish it caused me and
still does; I'm still uncertain as to whether I should've gotten the
boys castrated instead of neutered, despite the repair bills.

I wasn't going to get them fixed; I had (with extreme effort I may add)
almost completely trained them not to spray inside the house (male cat
spray is easily the most offensive substance in the universe), then both
of them dragged their a.ses back home with only 6 working legs between
them one night and bled *profusely* all over the place; well one of them
did, the other one only got as far as next door and collapsed; he turned
out to have a separated hip (or whatever they call it) as well as the
lacerations. That one eventually went to some people down the street who
had an older cat that needed company; and I watched (somewhat sadly)
while one of my boys gradually lost the jowls and extreme muscle tone
after I got them both fixed.

The girls on the other hand; the "grandma" had had over 30 kittens and
was in a sorry state, and we had run out of catless friends/relatives
and were down to people who couldn't really take care of them.

Despite the stink (no pun intended), I'm still pissed at myself for
caving so easily.

> Well, I wouldn't go so far to say all of this about me!  I just think that
> it's BS that cat's shouldn't be declawed.  We neuter/spay cats not only for
> them, but because we don't want the consequences of more stray cats, cats in
> heat, cats spraying.  Are these not selfish reasons as well?  No one even
> bats an eye at that!!  It just seems contradictive to me!

Declawing is almost always solely for the protection of the owners'
furniture; at least the other 2 "hall of flame" subjects (fixing and
indoor vs outdoor) include the safety of the pet and society in general
in the reasoning.

pat

>>pat
>>
>>If you've read this far, you may get the impression that I'm against
>>declawing as a solution for housecats that scratch the furniture... and
>>you'd be right, but since I'm very tired at the moment, I'm probably
>>coming across maybe just a tad more acerbic than usual.
Agua Girl - 06 Sep 2004 13:50 GMT
> Well, I wouldn't go so far to say all of this about me!  I just think that
> it's BS that cat's shouldn't be declawed.  We neuter/spay cats not only for
> them, but because we don't want the consequences of more stray cats, cats in
> heat, cats spraying.  Are these not selfish reasons as well?  No one even
> bats an eye at that!!  It just seems contradictive to me!

Do you seriously think spaying and neutering your animal to
prevent thousands of unwanted kittens from being euthanized
each year is the same as declawing them to prevent them from
scratching?  While some will neuter Toms to keep them from
spraying and/or wandering and getting in fights...most do it
to prevent unwanted babies.  BTW...neutering a male doesn't
PREVENT him from spaying, it just removes the urge to mark
territories.

I don't want to pass judgement (but it's hard not to).  You do
what you think is right...but don't expect me to understand why
anyone would cut off a cats fingers just to protect their furniture.
Why even get a cat...why not get a turtle?

AG
Amanda Jones - 12 Sep 2004 15:33 GMT
>  Our decision was not made lightly and there was a
> time
> that I felt like a horrible "mother".

Rightly. Pity you stopped feeling that way.
Mary - 06 Sep 2004 20:32 GMT
>Any ideas would be greatly
>appreciated. Thanks.

cat scratching tips

1. Hopefully he likes catnip. If so, rub it all over the scratching post. If he
still doesn't use it, take his little paws and scratch the post with them and
tell him he's a good kitty. Scratch the post yourself in front of him. Remember
to associate positive things with acceptable clawing and negative things with
unacceptable clawing like the word "no."

2. Try a scratching mat. Some prefer horizontal over vetical surfaces.

3. Try sisal, rug, cardboard, fabric... covered trees or mat. Some even like
plain wood. You can get cheap thin door mats and staple gun them to a cat tree.
Use canvas if he really likes fabric. Be sure the stapes go vertical like this
"|" and not horizontal like this "--" so they don't get their claws stuck in
there.

4. Put double sided tape where he likes to scratch. They won't like the
stickiness. They may then scratch a few inches over from the tape so be
prepared to add more. Keep no. 5 in mind when using the tape.

5. Don't let him in that room where he scratches when you're not around. When
you're around stand gaurd with a squirt gun and squirt him from a distance when
he scratches the furniture. If he's real persistent, put a little bit of
vinegar in the squirt gun. Don't get him in the face. You can also yell "NO!"
when he scratches there. I also like to take him away from that area instantly
and take him to the scratchy tree, hold his paws and help him scratch while
praising him. Make it a fun experience, don't hold him forcefully or he'll fear
the kitty tree. Make everything associated with the kitty tree positive. I
sometimes will put a scratchy tree close to the furniture they are clawing so
they have a nearby alternative.

6. Put vinegar where he scratches. They don't like the smell.

7. Try some of that "cat away" spray.

8. Try a "scat mat" where he is scratching.

9. Get rid of fabric furniture with vertical fabric sides. Get THICK baggy
distressed leather or wood sofa and chairs.

10. Try soft paws. http://www.softpaws.com/

11. Try trimming his claws every ten days. Some trim once a week.

12. Whenever you see him clawing appropriately, praise and reward him lavishly.
Continue to praise him forever or he may get lazy.

13. Try Feliway to calm them down, found in most pet stores.

14. Make sure your cat tree is tall and heavy enough. Big kitties will topple a
small light one with a small base then they may fear the tree. I put weights on
the bottom of mine. I get the big ones. I also have a multi-tier cat tree they
like to rip up.

15. Try this product, a cat tree that attaches to the side of your couch.
http://www.birminghamind.com/Scratchaway/index.html

16. Try some "no mark" spray. It may keep them from spraying and/or scratching.

17. Put upside down floor runners pointy side up near where he is scratching.
This way he won't be able to stand close enough to scratch because it will be
uncomfortable on his feet.

18. Try an angled scratchy post or a scratchy teepee. Some prefer clawing at an
angle.
Mr.G - 07 Sep 2004 02:34 GMT
if you do use a clippper be careful no to cut the vain. In other words
not too much, clip just the points, thanks

>Hi. My wife and I are considering have our two year old cat Sydney declawed
>because my wife is pregnant and due within a month. Sydney has her very stinky
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>but I still don't think that would be enough. Any ideas would be greatly
>appreciated. Thanks.
 
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