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pleas help:  i need your help, or my cat may have to go to a shelter

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jimmy the LD - 23 Aug 2004 00:25 GMT
Greetings:
I am a new person posting here, and I desperately need your help.

I took in a stray a month ago (we named him Rutherford the Brave) and we
treat him unbelievably well.  He gets canned cat food once a day in the
morning, has dry food all day, and has plenty of fresh water.  My
girlfriend (we live together) has a 15 year old toy poodle, a very tiny
but aggressive dog that keeps to herself as long as the cat isn't right
directly in her face.  She never attacks the cat, only growls, and the
cat backs off.  Most of the time they live in harmony together, as do we
all.  Rutherford gets lots of toys, lots of room, and LOTS of affection.
 I love him unconditionally.

Here's the main problem:
Rutherford has a covered letterbox that is cleaned frequently in a spare
bathroom (in the shower) of our home.  The main issue is that Rutherford
likes to urinate right directly in front of us on the floor, on bags
lying around, in hidden spots, AND in his litter box.  When we got him,
he was declawed and neutered, but he still sprays urine all over the
place, at LEAST once or twice every other day.  I can't figure out what
to do, and I've spent a LOT of time searching pet sites and reading
about it in the library.  I cannot spend all of my spare time from work
cleaning up urine and de-stinking our home (a three bedroom ranch) and
nothing is working.  Today while I was taking a break from working on my
 computer he proceeded to spray piss all over the front of my CD towers
while I watched him.  I immediately took him, his food and water, and
locked him in our bathroom (the one with the litterbox in it).

Can you suggest something?
Rutherford and I desperately seek your help.

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KellyH - 23 Aug 2004 00:45 GMT
> Greetings:
> I am a new person posting here, and I desperately need your help.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Can you suggest something?
> Rutherford and I desperately seek your help.

Have you tried adding a second litterbox?  Some cats do not like to urinate
and defecate in the same box.  Have you tried uncovering the litterbox?
Have you tried other types of litter?  There's also a litter called Cat
Attract that I have heard many people have had success with.  Most
importantly, have you taken him to the vet to check for a Urinary Tract
Infection?

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kelly at farringtons dot net
www.kelltek.com
Check out www.snittens.com

Cathy Friedmann - 23 Aug 2004 00:46 GMT
Has he been to the vet, in case the inappropriate peeing is due to a urinary
tract infection?  Peeing outside of the box (on occasion, not necessarily
all of the time) is a symptom of a UTI.  So that'd be the first step to
take, in case it's medical Vs. behavioral - or if it's at least partially
medical.  A round - or two - of antibiotic(s) would clear it up if he has an
infection.

From your description I'm not sure if he's just peeing outside of the box,
&/or spraying (marking).

Cathy

> Greetings:
> I am a new person posting here, and I desperately need your help.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Can you suggest something?
> Rutherford and I desperately seek your help.
jimmy the LD - 23 Aug 2004 00:52 GMT
> Has he been to the vet, in case the inappropriate peeing is due to a urinary
> tract infection?  Peeing outside of the box (on occasion, not necessarily
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> From your description I'm not sure if he's just peeing outside of the box,
> &/or spraying (marking).

Cathy:
He's marking all over the place.  He was at the vet no longer than a
month ago, and he checked out totally (he had the leukemia test and was
thoroughly checked out).

Rutherford has ALL KINDS of weird little things that he does - like
spending a majority of his time staring up at the kitchen counters, and
drinking from the tap all of the time.  He gets his water bowl cleaned
and replenished at LEAST once a day.

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Amanda Jones - 23 Aug 2004 02:05 GMT
> Rutherford has ALL KINDS of weird little things that he does - like
> spending a majority of his time staring up at the kitchen counters, and
> drinking from the tap all of the time.  He gets his water bowl cleaned
> and replenished at LEAST once a day.

That's not weird - that's standard cattiness.

There seems to be a rule genetically imprinted into cats that they shall
never drink from a water bowl if there is a tap / toilet / glass of water
etc available instead.

Amanda
~*Connie*~ - 23 Aug 2004 02:12 GMT
you said the vet totally checked him over, well checking for a urinary issue
is NOT standard.  He very well could have one.  Also declawed cats are
notorious for not using the litter box.  its pretty standard.  Check out on
line some of the different litters that are easier on declawed paws.   also
check out cat attract. and uncover the litter box.

> > Has he been to the vet, in case the inappropriate peeing is due to a urinary
> > tract infection?  Peeing outside of the box (on occasion, not necessarily
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> http://music.jimhutchison.com
> http://music.jimhutchison.com/weblog/jimmyblogger.htm
Cathy Friedmann - 23 Aug 2004 02:33 GMT
> you said the vet totally checked him over, well checking for a urinary issue
> is NOT standard.  He very well could have one.

This I agree with.

 Also declawed cats are
> notorious for not using the litter box.  its pretty standard.

This I do not agree with.  It *may* be true of some, but it certainly isn't
"standard".  Of my 4 cats, 2 have been front-declawed & use(d) the litter
box.  Otoh, the one who started peeing outside of the liter box
(fully-clawed) turned out to have a UTI.  Two courses of antibiotics later,
he was fine.

Check out on
> line some of the different litters that are easier on declawed paws.

IME, they use the same litter as the fully-clawed cats.

  also
> check out cat attract. and uncover the litter box.

This could be a problem.  One of my cats was at least sort of claustrophobic
(never went inside of paper bags, never crawled under the covers...) & a
covered litter box would've been a disaster for her.

Cathy

> > > Has he been to the vet, in case the inappropriate peeing is due to a
> urinary
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> > http://music.jimhutchison.com
> > http://music.jimhutchison.com/weblog/jimmyblogger.htm
Frank Pittel - 29 Aug 2004 02:53 GMT
There were only two times my cats didn't use the litter box. The first was when
I stupidly decided to disenfect the box with bleach. The ammonia in the urine
created a toxic gas and it didn't take long before they started peeing all over
the place. The second was when one of the cats had problems with the one kidney
she had (she was a runt and born with only one). It ended up failing completely
and she died not to long after she stopped peeing in the box.

Although the odds are against it having been possible t osave her I often wish I
brought her to the vet as soon as she stopped using the box. Something could
have been done before her kidney failed completely.

In alt.pets.cats Cathy Friedmann <clfr@adelphia.net> wrote:

: > you said the vet totally checked him over, well checking for a urinary
: issue
: > is NOT standard.  He very well could have one.

: This I agree with.

:   Also declawed cats are
: > notorious for not using the litter box.  its pretty standard.

: This I do not agree with.  It *may* be true of some, but it certainly isn't
: "standard".  Of my 4 cats, 2 have been front-declawed & use(d) the litter
: box.  Otoh, the one who started peeing outside of the liter box
: (fully-clawed) turned out to have a UTI.  Two courses of antibiotics later,
: he was fine.

:  Check out on
: > line some of the different litters that are easier on declawed paws.

: IME, they use the same litter as the fully-clawed cats.

:    also
: > check out cat attract. and uncover the litter box.

: This could be a problem.  One of my cats was at least sort of claustrophobic
: (never went inside of paper bags, never crawled under the covers...) & a
: covered litter box would've been a disaster for her.

: Cathy

: > > > Has he been to the vet, in case the inappropriate peeing is due to a
: > urinary
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
: > > http://music.jimhutchison.com
: > > http://music.jimhutchison.com/weblog/jimmyblogger.htm

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Cathy Friedmann - 23 Aug 2004 02:17 GMT
> > Has he been to the vet, in case the inappropriate peeing is due to a urinary
> > tract infection?  Peeing outside of the box (on occasion, not necessarily
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> month ago, and he checked out totally (he had the leukemia test and was
> thoroughly checked out).

A UTI can pop up any time.  If I were you, I'd still get a vet appt. for him
to make sure that's not at least part of his problem.

> Rutherford has ALL KINDS of weird little things that he does - like
> spending a majority of his time staring up at the kitchen counters, and
> drinking from the tap all of the time.  He gets his water bowl cleaned
> and replenished at LEAST once a day.

This last isn't weird.  One of my cats also greatly prefers to drink from a
running tap; it's a fairly common thing w/ cats.

Cathy
Frank Pittel - 29 Aug 2004 02:47 GMT
In alt.pets.cats Cathy Friedmann <clfr@adelphia.net> wrote:

: > > Has he been to the vet, in case the inappropriate peeing is due to a
: urinary
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
: > month ago, and he checked out totally (he had the leukemia test and was
: > thoroughly checked out).

: A UTI can pop up any time.  If I were you, I'd still get a vet appt. for him
: to make sure that's not at least part of his problem.

: > Rutherford has ALL KINDS of weird little things that he does - like
: > spending a majority of his time staring up at the kitchen counters, and
: > drinking from the tap all of the time.  He gets his water bowl cleaned
: > and replenished at LEAST once a day.

: This last isn't weird.  One of my cats also greatly prefers to drink from a
: running tap; it's a fairly common thing w/ cats.

Until they passed away last winter I had two cats that would only drink from the
tap. One from tap in the bathroom sink and the other from the tap in the
bathtub. They would also only drink the dripping water not from the puddle by
the drain. Although I kept a clean bowl of fresh water for them they never drank
from it.

I second taking the cat to the vet.

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-------------------
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jimmy the LD - 23 Aug 2004 00:53 GMT
> Greetings:
> I am a new person posting here, and I desperately need your help.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Can you suggest something?
> Rutherford and I desperately seek your help.

I cannot think of getting rid of my beloved Rutherford the Brave.
Is there something I can get to spray in the house to either deter him
from marking, or to cover up the scent of his urine?  I know cat urine
to be one of the most horribly smelling things on this planet...

jimmy

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Adam Helberg - 23 Aug 2004 02:03 GMT
> > Greetings:
> > I am a new person posting here, and I desperately need your help.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> jimmy

You can try a Feliway plugin vaporizer. The cat may be feeling stressed by the dog.
Kelly - 23 Aug 2004 02:50 GMT
> > I cannot think of getting rid of my beloved Rutherford the Brave.
> > Is there something I can get to spray in the house to either deter him
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> You can try a Feliway plugin vaporizer. The cat may be feeling stressed by the dog.

I second that.  Give Feliway a try.
Cathy Friedmann - 23 Aug 2004 02:19 GMT
An enzyme cleaner.  And, in case it's behavioral, you could try Feliway.
It's a pheromone, comes in both a spray version (I think), & as a plug-in
and lasts a month deal - where it diffuses into the air.  A Google search
should bring it up easily.

Cathy

> > Greetings:
> > I am a new person posting here, and I desperately need your help.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> jimmy
M.C. Mullen - 23 Aug 2004 05:38 GMT
| An enzyme cleaner.  And, in case it's behavioral, you could try Feliway.
| It's a pheromone, comes in both a spray version (I think), & as a plug-in
| and lasts a month deal - where it diffuses into the air.  A Google search
| should bring it up easily.
|
| Cathy

It might even calm the dog too or is it not effective with dogs?
How about any effect on people? What does it smell like?

Carola
Cathy Friedmann - 23 Aug 2004 19:12 GMT
> | An enzyme cleaner.  And, in case it's behavioral, you could try Feliway.
> | It's a pheromone, comes in both a spray version (I think), & as a plug-in
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Carola

People can'r detect a smell.  I think it's specific, pheromone-wise, to
cats.

Cathy
Rob - 23 Aug 2004 02:40 GMT
top post:

as youve been told, take the cat to the vet and have it checked for a
urinary tract infection.  that is THE most common reason for cats pissing
just about everywhere except the litterbox after theyve been litterbox
trained.  every time one of my cats does that, it's always because of UTI.

> > Greetings:
> > I am a new person posting here, and I desperately need your help.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> jimmy
M.C. Mullen - 23 Aug 2004 05:36 GMT
| I cannot think of getting rid of my beloved Rutherford the Brave.
| Is there something I can get to spray in the house to either deter him
| from marking, or to cover up the scent of his urine?  I know cat urine
| to be one of the most horribly smelling things on this planet...
|
| jimmy

I know what you're talking about, I have the same problem at the moment :-(
I found a spray which neutralizes all sort off smells pretty well, but this
does not solve the problem. He could be marking because of the dog. You'd
nearly need to seek the help of a cat behaviourist. Tell me when you've
found a solution. Just a thought: encourage the two pets to be friends:
feeding them at the same time, giving them treats etc. Has the cat enough
room? One of mine has chosen to live on top of the wardrobe, so I have
placed a bed there for her.

Good luck

Carola
Mary - 23 Aug 2004 01:22 GMT
>Can you suggest something?
>Rutherford and I desperately seek your help.

One, take him to the vet to check for a urinary tract infection. They will pee
right in front of you when they have an infection. They're trying to tell you
that they're sick. If he's okay, here are some things I learned about spraying.
Your cat probably also feels insecure about your dog because they don't get
along. Your cat therefore is leaving little memos around the house telling
everyone that he lives there also. Below is something I posted earlier. In it
my cat Patches felt insecure around Mimi. In your situation, your dog is Mimi
and your cat is Patches.

I just spent $395 to go to a cat behavioral psychologist. Patches spraying was
driving me nuts. Last week he peed on the bed and sprayed the side of it. He
does not have a urinary tract infection. He only sprays near where Mimi likes
to sit and sleep so I knew it had something to do with her. They don't hate
each other but they're not good friends either.

The doctor spent two hours counseling me about Patches and Mimi so he could
understand why Patches was spraying. Patches was spraying because he's upset by
outdoor cats spraying the outside of the house. He's also not that comfortable
with Mimi. I thought I'd share this counseling session so that it might help
others (and they could save the $395!) So far I've done everything the doctor
said to do and Patches hasn't sprayed. It's only been a week. I'll keep you
updated in another few weeks to see if he really stops spraying for good. I
transcribed the below from the big behavioral prescription he gave me.

Dr. Polsky http://www.drpolsky.com 

Behavioral therapy interview

Problem: Cat is spraying to communicate. He is upset by other cats spraying the
outside of the house. He is upset by other inside cat. He is basically not very
confident psychologically so he sprays.

Solution: Keep outside cats away from the house so they can't spray the
exterior doors and upset him. Make spraying cat feel more comfortable with
other cat. Make it so he doesn't have to compete for resources, has his own cat
tree, extra litter boxes. Make it so he eventually will like the other cat more
by associating closeness to the other cat with positive things such as food,
brushing, play time. Make previously sprayed areas unattractive by cleaning and
making it impossible for him to spray there again.

A. Increase number of litter boxes from one to four so cat won't feel
competition for resources. Switch to sand litter which they both prefer. Keep
very clean. Two boxes in the living room, one in the office, one in the dining
room.

B. Keep music room closed. Cat was spraying in there and it's easy to block off
that room for the time being.

C. Feed both cats at very close distance, bowls touching. You may have to
slowly move the bowls together. This will make the sprayer associate the other
cat with good things such as food.

D. Brush cat at close distance to other cat so he will associate good things
with the other cat. He likes being brushed.

E. Teach cats to come in command for food treat together so they associate each
others presence with good things.

F. Mutual play sessions in each others presence. Include both of them playing
with a toy.

G. Mutual grooming. Hold finger with petromalt or other yummy food on finger.
Put finger near other cat. Let spraying cat lick food off finger very close to
other cat. Eventually put finger on other cat then put food on other cat so he
can lick off. This should encourage mutual grooming.

H. Provide ample marking locations for spraying cat so he can rub his face and
scratch on posts or brushes to mark using his scent glands instead of spraying.

I. Add a cat tree for spraying cat in location that doesn't have view of
street. View of street may upset him if he sees other cats or dogs. He needs
his own cat tree to sit on because other cat is on other tree.

J. Abut previously marked areas with upside down carpet runners with the sharp
plastic points up so he can't back up and spray areas again.

K. Keep outside cats away from exterior of house with ultrasonice devices,
upside down carpet runners so they can't spray exterior doors and mousetraps
(won't hurt cats, just scare them.)

L. Use Feliway where he has sprayed before. Clean sprayed areas with
anti-icky-poo enzymatic cleaner. Spray "No Mark" by Nala Barry Laboratories in
California over the areas to keep him from respraying.

M. Drug administration. buspirone (Buspar Rx)
5-10 mg. BID (2.5 x day).

http://www.petalia.com.au/templates/StoryTemplate_Process.cfm?Story_No=305
http://www.hssv.org/behavior/cat/cat_spray.htm
http://www.ivis.org/advances/Behavior_Houpt/seksel/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1
Jodie - 23 Aug 2004 03:39 GMT
My mom just went through this with her cat and was ready to put him down
(she thought he was too old and getting senile).  SHe is an obsessive neat
freak and won't tolerate what she called a "dirty cat" (my mother and I
differ greatly here, I would put my cat in diapers before I'd have her put
down for that).  I pleaded with her to take the cat to the vet for a
check-up first, before euthanasia, and she told me he was recently checked,
and besides, is perfectly healthy-acting otherwise.

Well, she was guilt-tripped by everyone into doing the check-up, and it
turns out the cat had suddenly developed Pneumonia.  He went on a round on
antibiotics, and lo and behold the cat stopped the peeing behaviour.

My mother, now meek and humble, treats the cat like a king.
AC - 23 Aug 2004 22:27 GMT
Great, solid ideas there. Thanks for sharing that!

> >Can you suggest something?
> >Rutherford and I desperately seek your help.
[quoted text clipped - 89 lines]
> http://www.hssv.org/behavior/cat/cat_spray.htm
> http://www.ivis.org/advances/Behavior_Houpt/seksel/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1
Amy Gray - 23 Aug 2004 04:13 GMT
>I took in a stray a month ago (we named him Rutherford the Brave) and we
>treat him unbelievably well.
The first step is to go to the vet and rule out a medical cause.
Joe Canuck - 23 Aug 2004 14:20 GMT
> Greetings:
> I am a new person posting here, and I desperately need your help.
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> Can you suggest something?
> Rutherford and I desperately seek your help.

You start with a visit to the vet to rule out a medical issue as the
root cause for this.

Once having done that, you can then proceed a little less in the dark.

To take action without getting a clean bill of health first IS
proceeding in the dark.

Explain the whole thing to the vet, if there are no medical issues then
perhaps the vet can offer suggestions.

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owen - 23 Aug 2004 16:02 GMT
> Can you suggest something?
> Rutherford and I desperately seek your help.

Have you seen your vet ?

Owen
jimmy the LD - 24 Aug 2004 00:51 GMT
I was thining today ato work about this post - and I am wondering if
maybe he is hungry or something - could that be a possibility?

I feed him half a can of Friskees in the morning, and he has dry food
all day.

how often do you feed your cat?

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Karen Chuplis - 24 Aug 2004 02:10 GMT
> I was thining today ato work about this post - and I am wondering if
> maybe he is hungry or something - could that be a possibility?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> how often do you feed your cat?

You mean, would that be why he sprays? Well, probably not, but here is a
question, IS he spraying (butt in air) or urinating (much different). Spray
is more likely territiorial. I didn't see if you said if he was neutered or
if so, when. It can take up to a month for hormones to stop the "spray
tendancy".
jimmy the LD - 24 Aug 2004 02:31 GMT
>>I was thining today ato work about this post - and I am wondering if
>>maybe he is hungry or something - could that be a possibility?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> if so, when. It can take up to a month for hormones to stop the "spray
> tendancy".  

Well, he is spraying AND squatting.
We got him a month ago, and the vet said he's about three years old; we
have no idea when he was neuatered, but it must have been some years ago.

JImmy

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Karen Chuplis - 24 Aug 2004 05:16 GMT
>>> I was thining today ato work about this post - and I am wondering if
>>> maybe he is hungry or something - could that be a possibility?
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> JImmy
If he is squatting, he could VERY well have crystals in his urine. They can
be very, very tiny and it can lead to a life threatening situation
eventually. The only way the vet could tell that would be with a urinalysis.
He MUST have this done because if that is it, very possilby, a diet change
could help you out. I do not know if you know about crystals, but go to
google and do a search on FLUTD and Insterstitial Cystitis in the feline. I
*really* encourage you to get the vet to do this. It is painful and
irritating and the only way the cat has tell you something is wrong is to do
this. Think of how it is if you feel like you have to go, but it hurst. That
may be what is causing this behaviour. Only 10 percent of spraying is
behavioural. 90 percent of the time it is physical and especially, if he is
squatting. That is NOT behavioural. I hope you can get him better. Good
luck.
 
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