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Cat Forum / General Topics / August 2003Am I the Alpha Cat?
Whenever I lie down next to Greebo [1], if his face is towards me, he turns away and puts his butt towards me. He won't cuddle with me with his face near mine, he'll just squirm away or change position, and he'll sleep next to me, but only upside down, or, if his head is near mine, his back has to be towards me. He gets *very* uncomfortable being face to face with me for any length of time. So am I the alpha cat? Does he take my going face-to-face with him as a confrontation, and this is his way of deferring to me? I figure that's what it is, but just wondered what you all thought. He's a major cuddle bug, which is why it tends to drive me crazy when he squirms away in discomfort like he doesn't want me near him! Ann [1] Well, both do this, really, but Greebo cuddles with me more, because he lords it over Crowley. If Crowley comes on the bed and sees Greebo there (or sees me petting him, anyway), he'll generally bug off fairly quickly, and sometimes Greebo will as well, especially if I try and pet them both at the same time; he's very greedy with me. :) And if Greebo jumps up when I'm petting Crowley, Crowley won't stay very long, at least not without some serious coaxing; if I really encourage him, he might stay a bit longer, and then Greebo tends to wander off, or just curl up at the end of the bed a little bit away. But if he does get intimidated and leave - which he does more often than not - Greebo will often try to take over and get me to pet him instead (which is hard not to do, since he's there looking cuddly, but I hate to reward him for being pushy)! Someone told me littermates often have a more distinct pecking order; does that tend to be true? The only others I had were pretty close, so I don't know how often this is the case. -- http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak > Whenever I lie down next to Greebo [1], if his face is towards me, he turns > away and puts his butt towards me. He won't cuddle with me with his face [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak I've had Zippy since he was 7 weeks. At first he'd sleep right around my neck, the human touch he wanted. When he became about 3" longer he started sleeping next to me or on my chest, face near me. Now he's about 13" long, minus tail, and always sticks his rear in my face. I notice with him its more of a comfort thing, or he's telling me I have morning breath. If I rearrange him to face towards me he'll keep fidgeting as if trying to find a more comfortable spot, so that may be what happens with Greebo. I also notice if I'm sitting back in a recliner he will lay face towards mine, so I figured its comfort. Now if I ever catch him trying briefs and boxers, I'll worry. <g> -Matt > I've had Zippy since he was 7 weeks. At first he'd sleep right around my > neck, the human touch he wanted. When he became about 3" longer he started > sleeping next to me or on my chest, face near me. I think that's the only time he ever faces me, when he sleeps on my chest, and even then, he tends to sleep with his butt towards my face! Now he's about 13" long, > minus tail, and always sticks his rear in my face. I notice with him its > more of a comfort thing, or he's telling me I have morning breath. I've often wondered! :) If I > rearrange him to face towards me he'll keep fidgeting as if trying to find a > more comfortable spot, so that may be what happens with Greebo. I also > notice if I'm sitting back in a recliner he will lay face towards mine, so I > figured its comfort. Well, I thought that might be it, but like today, he was lying up against my hubby's pillow on the bed, and when I went in and lay on my pillow facing him, even though I tried not to get right up in his face, he turned and lay with his butt towards me. Since I didn't move him, and he's done this before, I figured it was more than an issue of a comfortable spot. Now if I ever catch him trying briefs and boxers, I'll > worry. <g> LOL! :D Ann -- http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak >Whenever I lie down next to Greebo [1], if his face is towards me, he turns >away and puts his butt towards me. He won't cuddle with me with his face [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >confrontation, and this is his way of deferring to me? I figure that's what >it is, but just wondered what you all thought. Sorry, but you're not the alpha cat. :) While cats are social animals, they do not have the rigid heirarchy that dogs do. Cats hang around the cats they like, and avoid the cats they don't. Unlike dogs, eye contact is not a dominance signal. Rather, it is a signal of friendship, as it is in humans. Most cats tend to dislike close face-to-face interaction because we are just so damn big. They do not see well at distances under 4" or so (which is when their whiskers take over) so if you get too close, your face turns into a giant, scary blob. They also dislike the strength of our inhalations and exhalations -- their whiskers are exquisitely sensitive and our breath will disturb them. Orchid Orchid's Kitties: http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Orchid's Guide: http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid > Most cats tend to dislike close face-to-face interaction > because we are just so damn big. They do not see well at distances > under 4" or so (which is when their whiskers take over) so if you get > too close, your face turns into a giant, scary blob. They also > dislike the strength of our inhalations and exhalations -- their > whiskers are exquisitely sensitive and our breath will disturb them. I wish someone would tell my kitten these things. She is about 12 weeks old and I'm hoping it will go away as she gets older..... When she gets in bed with me at night, she likes to get *right* in my face, it seems she wants to breath the very air I'm breathing, as she will put her nose right under mine. She does this a few times a night and I really hope she grows out of it :-/ I don't mind her being in my face (it's better than her butt :-), however, those whiskers sure tickle and I'm not getting much sleep, because when she does this and wakes me up, she wants to be petted too :-) We just adopted a new cat, today. I don't know how old he is, but at least a couple of years old, and he'll climb up on us to be able to run the top of his head on our faces. It'll be interesting to see what his sleeping habits are. Cats are wonderful creatures :-) M > On Wed, 13 Aug 2003 08:47:43 +0100, "bewtifulfreak" > Sorry, but you're not the alpha cat. :) While cats are > social animals, they do not have the rigid heirarchy that dogs do. Ah, okay....it's not that I wanted to lord it over him anyway, just wondered what was causing his behavior! > Most cats tend to dislike close face-to-face interaction > because we are just so damn big. They do not see well at distances > under 4" or so (which is when their whiskers take over) so if you get > too close, your face turns into a giant, scary blob. They also > dislike the strength of our inhalations and exhalations -- their > whiskers are exquisitely sensitive and our breath will disturb them. I guess that explains a lot! So I must just be too scary and full of hot air to deal with at close range, LOL.... Thanks for the explaination, makes sense. And thanks to everyone else who posted their experiences! >> Most cats tend to dislike close face-to-face interaction >> because we are just so damn big. They do not see well at distances [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I guess that explains a lot! So I must just be too scary and full > of hot air to deal with at close range, LOL.... You don't live in the Whitehouse, do you? ({:-O)  SignatureRegards Fred <unclefredFFFf@fredwilliams.ca> Remove FFFf to reply, please > Sorry, but you're not the alpha cat. :) While cats are > social animals, they do not have the rigid heirarchy that dogs do. > Cats hang around the cats they like, and avoid the cats they don't. > Unlike dogs, eye contact is not a dominance signal. Rather, it is a > signal of friendship, as it is in humans. Just another question....so is the behavior I described between my boys an issue of personal taste for one another? My Greebo tends to lord it over his brother, and Crowley will stop eating a treat I've given him if Greebo comes up, or jump down if Greebo jumps up while I'm petting him. This always seemed to be a matter of dominance to me; do they just not like each other very much? Greebo will often even stoop to climbing back and forth over Crowley while I'm petting him, making it clear that he wants to take over, and Crowley gets the message pretty quick most of the times (unless he's under the covers and can avoid Greebo)! Could you give me a bit of insight into this behavior, if it's not based on pecking order? I know Greebo would never let Crowley intimidate *him* out of a treat! Thanks again! Ann P.S. I thought some wild cats, such as lions, had a heirarchy? Don't domestic cats have this at *all*? Maybe not with humans, but between themselves? >Just another question....so is the behavior I described between my >boys an issue of personal taste for one another? My Greebo tends to [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >behavior, if it's not based on pecking order? I know Greebo would >never let Crowley intimidate *him* out of a treat! It does sound to me that your cats are not best buddies. :) From what you are describing, I would surmise that Greebo is the stronger (or pushier) of the two. While cats do not have a rigid heirarchy, they can have a very loose, shifting one. It sounds as though Greebo is a stronger cat, and Crowley has learned that Greebo is going to get what he wants anyway, so he might as well give it to him in the first place. If you had more cats, you would have a better conceptualisation of what I am describing here. With more cats, you could see that unlike a dog pack, which is a strict pecking order where each dog knows its place within the pack, cat social structure is more like a loose coalition of cliques. Cats have an idea of what will beat them up (who they then avoid), who can beat them up (who they then tend to somewhat defer to), and who they can beat up. This is why aversive training (smacking, scolding, etc) doesn't usually work with cats -- they just decide to avoid the crazy human who will beat them up or yell. They have no concept of 'punishment for the good of the pack' like dogs do. >P.S. I thought some wild cats, such as lions, had a heirarchy? Don't >domestic cats have this at *all*? Maybe not with humans, but between >themselves? Lions have a rigid heirarchal structure, yes. However, social structure tends to be defined by hunting method. Lions and wolves and orcas all have a pack hunting technique. They must work together in order to make a kill, which they then share together. It is crucial that pack hunters have a rigid social structure, as that is what keeps the pack in good health and successful at hunting. Small wildcats have a solitary hunting technique which means that they do not have to depend on anyone else to be in the right place at the right time. Therefore they have no need of a strict heirarchy, as they do not have to be around any other cat that they don't like. Our domestic cats are still solitary hunters, and feral colonies epitomise a loose coalition of cliques. Orchid Orchid's Kitties: http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Orchid's Guide: http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid Orchid (or anyone else who cares to contribute!), I have a female cat that I brought home about 4 months after my male cat. Clearly the male runs the place-- he was there first. They used to be much more loving to eah other, though (They are both now 4). My Omar is like Greebo, and Minouche is kind of like Crowley. I am not sure if Omar does it intentionally, or if Minouche is just crotchety. (She is kind of a drama queen.) Omar may jump up to where she is and lick her head. She may just sit there and enjoy it, or more likely, she will jump down. I don't know if he's licking her to be sweet, or because he knows she will leave and he can have the window or chair or whatever to himself. Where am I going with this? Well you seem to know about this, so I thought I'd ask: a) If Omar is trying to be sweet, are his feelings hurt when she walks away (or even growls occasionally)? b) Does Minouche (or any sub-cats) suffer from self-esteem issues because she isn't the dominant one? I don't want her feeling bad about herself! Any thoughts (other than "who is this crazy woman with all of these questions??") :-) Thanks, Jennifer > >Just another question....so is the behavior I described between my > >boys an issue of personal taste for one another? My Greebo tends to [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > Orchid's Kitties: http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage > Orchid's Guide: http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid >Orchid (or anyone else who cares to contribute!), > >I have a female cat that I brought home about 4 months after my male cat. >Clearly the male runs the place-- he was there first. They used to be much >more loving to eah other, though (They are both now 4). My Omar is like >Greebo, and Minouche is kind of like Crowley. <snip> >Where am I going with this? Well you seem to know about this, so I thought >I'd ask: :) I hope that I'd know about it, as I am a trainer/behaviourist for both dogs and cats. Studying feline behaviour is absolutely fascinating stuff, but difficult to find. >a) If Omar is trying to be sweet, are his feelings hurt when she walks away >(or even growls occasionally)? Heh. Grooming another cat is often a dominance signal -- the biggest, toughest cat grooms the others (like a parent would). Now, this isn't *always* the case but much of the time it is, especially when it's not part of an already-occuring mutual grooming session. My cats are equally strong and pushy, so we don't have a more dominant cat in the household. Often a grooming session will become a wrestle-and-run-through-the-house session when one cat feels like the other is pushing this grooming thing too far. >b) Does Minouche (or any sub-cats) suffer from self-esteem issues because >she isn't the dominant one? I don't want her feeling bad about herself! I would seriously doubt that non-dominant cats suffer from self-esteem issues. :) After all, you are dominant to some people you know and submissive to others -- a good example is that you are socially submissive to your boss. Some cats are pushier than others, and the less-pushy cats don't seem to be bothered by it. Orchid Orchid's Kitties: http://nik.ascendancy.net/bengalpage Orchid's Guide: http://nik.ascendancy.net/orchid > Heh. Grooming another cat is often a dominance signal -- the > biggest, toughest cat grooms the others (like a parent would). Now, > this isn't *always* the case but much of the time it is, especially > when it's not part of an already-occuring mutual grooming session. That makes sense, as, like I said, this really does sound like something my Greebo might pull! > I would seriously doubt that non-dominant cats suffer from > self-esteem issues. :) After all, you are dominant to some people > you know and submissive to others -- a good example is that you are > socially submissive to your boss. Some cats are pushier than others, > and the less-pushy cats don't seem to be bothered by it. Or if they are, it might not necessarily affect their self-esteem, but they probably just get a bit peeved with it (like you would when your boss lords it over you). ;) It sure seems like Crowley feels that way sometimes, anyway! Every now and then, he'll be grooming Greebo, and then just start biting him, or sometimes they just get into a big tussle that I know is more serious than playfighting, because there's a lot of noise (screaming and yelling) involved. I suppose that's good, in a way; at least when he gets really fed up, he let's Greebo know about it.... :) Ann -- http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak > It does sound to me that your cats are not best buddies. :) > From what you are describing, I would surmise that Greebo is the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is going to get what he wants anyway, so he might as well give it to > him in the first place. I've got ya' now....so it's more like social behavior, sort of like kids, where one is stronger and more pushy, and so gets his way over the other one. Sounds like my boys, LOL! The thing is, they aren't best buddies, no, but they will *ocassionally* snuggle near one another, or, as is the case at the moment, they're on either end of the spare bed, both grooming themselves. So they don't totally avoid one another, but there is enough dominance on Greebo's part that they keep their distance most of the time. Ann -- http://www.angelfire.com/ca/bewtifulfreak |
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