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Cat Forum / General Topics / May 2004Any advice?
We've decided, as far as Elijah's concerned, to keep him for the moment. The vet said almost all cats can and are happy kept indoors, but if Elijah's not one of them, he'll go to my sisters in Kent, where he can come and go. I registered Elijah as found with the police and RSPCA on the off-chance that he was lost, not dumped. There seemed a slight chance of that, because he was in generally good health and likes people so much. I got a call at the weekend, which I returned today in trepidation <FX "MINE! GERROF!> However, no-one's claimed him, but rather another kitten's been found on Bedford Row. We've been discussing the option of taking him / her too. Elijah's very active, loves company, and hates being left, which he is most of the day. We thought that if we keep him the other cat will be company, and if he goes to my sisters, it would be easier for two to move together. The positive sides are obvious - any advice about the other side of it? Are two cats double the work, or less than that? If they aren't siblings (or if they are) what are the chances they'll get on? We don't want two cats which tolerate each other, we'd want two which are close and happy in the long term. What are the odds of this working out, given both are about 11-12 weeks old at the moment? Elijah's very friendly with other people, but didn't like my parents' cats when he met them (though they didn't warm to him, either!) What's genuinely in Elijah's best interests, do people reckon? Amanda "Amanda Jones" <avjones@cix.co.uk> wrote in message > We've decided, as far as Elijah's concerned, to keep him for the moment. > The vet said almost all cats can and are happy kept indoors, but if > Elijah's not one of them, he'll go to my sisters in Kent, where he can > come and go. We've been talking a lot about cats staying indoors in previous post when you rescued Elijah . All I'm gonna add is that Elijah will be happy indoors. Generally cats who have been previously outdoor can not adjust to indoor living too well or too slowly, but at his age, Elijah will be 100% fine. You could always take him out on a leash and harness, I think we discussed this as well previously :) > I registered Elijah as found with the police and RSPCA on the off-chance > that he was lost, not dumped. There seemed a slight chance of that, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > "MINE! GERROF!> However, no-one's claimed him, but rather another kitten's > been found on Bedford Row. If this is the same road where you found him and if the kitten is the same age, there is a great chance they are from the same litter. Perhaps the previous owner thought s/he'd keep the other kitten, then eventually dumped it as well. Pathetic, but what can you do not knowing who they are. > We've been discussing the option of taking him / her too. Elijah's very > active, loves company, and hates being left, which he is most of the day. > We thought that if we keep him the other cat will be company, and if he > goes to my sisters, it would be easier for two to move together. Oh definitely get the other one. Not only cos they might be from the same litter, but mainly as a company. Double the joy. > The positive sides are obvious - any advice about the other side of it? Well, the only one I can think of is cost of food and vet bills. But even that is nothing comparing to what you get back. > Are two cats double the work, or less than that? Oh definitely less. They will play together a lot, bug you less, you will enjoy them more, they will use up the energy on each other etc. > If they aren't siblings > (or if they are) what are the chances they'll get on? We don't want two > cats which tolerate each other, we'd want two which are close and happy in > the long term. What are the odds of this working out, given both are about > 11-12 weeks old at the moment? About 99.99%. Even if they are not from the same litter, kittens will bond greatly and quickly at this age. Long hours of being alone only with each other will strenghten the bond. I'd say they have practically 100% chance of to of them being close. Sex doesn;t make a difference to them (as long as you have them done later on of course :)) > Elijah's very friendly with other people, but didn't like my parents' cats when he met them (though they didn't warm to him, either!) With cats, there is always a period of adjusting which can last from a 2 days to 2 weeks, or longer in adult cats. With cats is all a territory thing and a smell thing, so bare that in mind. Of course he wont get on straight away with your parent cats, this just doesn;t happen. They smell different, one was invading other's "territory" etc. Give them a little time and they';ll be fine. If you get the other kitten, either give them both a bath with same cat shampoo, or rub some tuna brine into their coats. The point of the exercise is that they smell the same, as cats first sense they use is smell not sight as we humans do. So making them smell the same will accelerate the process of accepting one another, and new territory. Give Elijah lots of treats and scratches when new kitten comes in, so he can associate it with something positive. It;s his territory that is being invaded so he will need more reassurance then the newcomer! I wish you all the best, and enjoy the kittens. I know you say you might give them to your sis, but I bet that within a month you will be so in love with both of them you will not bare to part from them :) There is nothing in this world nicer then watching kittens playing. > What's genuinely in Elijah's best interests, do people reckon? Oh definitly having a cat company. And staying indoors with you. Gee > Amanda > We've been talking a lot about cats staying indoors in previous post > when [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > this > as well previously :) The only reason I'm having second thoughts about this is because he keeps trying to escape through the front door of our flat, and this morning it took me about 10 minutes to leave because I kept having to collect him from downstairs and return him (-: > If this is the same road where you found him and if the kitten is the > same > age, there is a great chance they are from the same litter. Perhaps the > previous owner thought s/he'd keep the other kitten, then eventually > dumped > it as well. Pathetic, but what can you do not knowing who they are. And there was also a third, the one in the dustbin bag who was dead when I found Elijah. > Well, the only one I can think of is cost of food and vet bills. But > even > that is nothing comparing to what you get back. I'm not bothered about that - most of the fixed costs (cat tree, scratching post, etc) will be the same, and the extra costs aren't really a problem. > > Are two cats double the work, or less than that? > > Oh definitely less. They will play together a lot, bug you less, you > will > enjoy them more, they will use up the energy on each other etc. Great! I just hoped that, with Elijah being here alone for 3 weeks now, he wouldn't be set in his ways as the only feline inhabitant - although there's a good chance he thinks he's human now, he likes to sit up on his hind legs (-: > About 99.99%. Even if they are not from the same litter, kittens will > bond [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > as > you have them done later on of course :)) there's no real way of telling whether they are siblings, and I reckon we'll only ever be able to guess. I'm very interested in your opinion that it doesn't really matter whether they are or aren't siblings in the long run. > . They smell > different, > one was invading other's "territory" etc. Give them a little time and > they';ll be fine. Great - thanks for your "integration" tips too! I'll crack open a tin of tuna (-: > I wish you all the best, and enjoy the kittens. I know you say you might > give them to your sis, but I bet that within a month you will be so in > love > with both of them you will not bare to part from them :) There is > nothing in > this world nicer then watching kittens playing. Even just watching one play is pretty good fun - he has a cat nip mouse he absolutely adores! Amanda > > We've been talking a lot about cats staying indoors in previous post > > when [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Amanda It will take a little time, but Elijah *will* adjust to being an indoor cat. My first cat was feral (approximately 8 months old). I originally had to take great care because he would aim for the door as soon as it was opened, and he was *very* fast. However, he eventually became a wonderful companion and showed absolutely no inclination to head for "the great outdoors." During the period when he was trying to be an escape artist, I learned to *back* out of the door. I would lean over and gently cup his head in my hand to prevent him from getting outside. Likewise, I would take great care when entering from outdoors to crack the door slightly and look for my cat's location. Gee posted some excellent advice. I would also like to "second" the advice to adopt the other kitten. At that age, they will probably bond quickly. MaryL You see, this strikes me as very cruel. > It will take a little time, but Elijah *will* adjust to being an indoor cat. > My first cat was feral (approximately 8 months old). I originally had to [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > MaryL > You see, this strikes me as very cruel. And almost psychotically selfish. > > It will take a little time, but Elijah *will* adjust to being an indoor > cat. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > > > MaryL > > You see, this strikes me as very cruel. > > And almost psychotically selfish. What an idiot you are, Scumbag. --Geno > > > You see, this strikes me as very cruel. > > > > And almost psychotically selfish. > > What an idiot you are, Scumbag. Not much of an argument, is it ? Perhaps because there is no humane argument FOR imprisoning cats. f.cking idiot. > --Geno "Scumball" <scumball@btinternet.com> wrote in message > Not much of an argument, is it ? > Perhaps because there is no humane argument FOR imprisoning cats. Tell me that when your beloved pet dies under the car like my QT did. Cats in the cities do NOT live in their natural environment so you cannot expect them to understand cars, poisons, nasty people and bunch of other dangers. So yes, there is a major argument for keeping cats indoors. It's hardly imprisonment, since they are getting only the best, as well as more then just one tiny room. So get off your blinkers and see the world in the proper light before you open your rude mouth again. > f.cking idiot. Oh yeah, I can see how THAT language will convince anyone that YOU are the one they should believe. <sigh> Gee > "Scumball" <scumball@btinternet.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > them to understand cars, poisons, nasty people and bunch of other dangers. > So yes, there is a major argument for keeping cats indoors. What an absurd 'argument'. Straight from 'the frying pan's better than the fire' school of philosophy. It's hardly > imprisonment, Obviously not in the book of someone who attempts to justify incarceration in the way you have. Imprisonment is defined as enforced confinement. How is what you're doing anything other than that ? since they are getting only the best, as well as more then > just one tiny room. So get off your blinkers and see the world in the proper > light before you open your rude mouth again. How old are you ? > > f.cking idiot. > > Oh yeah, I can see how THAT language will convince anyone that YOU are the > one they should believe. <sigh> > > Gee "Scumball" <scumball@btinternet.com> wrote in message > > > Perhaps because there is no humane argument FOR imprisoning cats. > > > > Tell me that when your beloved pet dies under the car like my QT did. Cats > > in the cities do NOT live in their natural environment so you cannot > expect them to understand cars, poisons, nasty people and bunch of other dangers. > > So yes, there is a major argument for keeping cats indoors. > > What an absurd 'argument'. > Straight from 'the frying pan's better than the fire' school of philosophy. Now THAT is an absurd comparasment to what I have stated. Which just goes to prove that you didn;t understand my point. <sigh> All I can say is that I do hope you do NOT have to go through loosing your beloved pet to the car or some other above mentioned danger, even though this seems the only way for you to realize what's right and what's wrong. Oh, and why. > It's hardly imprisonment, > > Obviously not in the book of someone who attempts to justify incarceration > in the way you have. If that is what I am doing, that YOU are justifying murdering the cats, cos you are allowing them to go out to get killed by some horrific means. So what is better, murder or incarceration? > Imprisonment is defined as enforced confinement. For the benefit of the confined person? I didn't think so. > How is what you're doing anything other than that ? Simple, I am not punishing my cats by making their life miserable in jail. I am giving them longer and healthier happy life. And keeping them alive, which I foolishly didn;t do with QT and paid the ultimate price. Is that what you really want for your cats? > So get off your blinkers and see the world in the > proper light before you open your rude mouth again. > > How old are you ? Early thirties. Age has nothing to do with politness or wanting it. Gee > You see, this strikes me as very cruel. He was a wonderful cat and lived almost 20 years with me. I lived in the middle of a large city, and he would not have lived long if I had not adopted him. He was a long-haired cat, and he had mats so bad the the skin was stretched tightly from one mat to another. Soon after I adopted him, I learned that he had UTI, so advanced that he was bleeding. He underwent surgery and treatment and lived to a ripe (and *happy*) old age. The vet said that he could not have survived long without treatment -- not to mention the dangers from cars at such a busy intersection. I adored him! MaryL > Gee posted some excellent advice. I would also like to "second" the > advice > to adopt the other kitten. At that age, they will probably bond > quickly. I'm going to, tomorrow! My b-f and flatmate agree, the former with resignation, the latter with enthusiasm (-: The problem with stopping Elijah escaping is that he isn't only greased lightening, he's also very small - it's difficult to block the door. Amanda "Amanda Jones" <avjones@cix.co.uk> wrote in message > The only reason I'm having second thoughts about this is because he keeps > trying to escape through the front door of our flat, and this morning it > took me about 10 minutes to leave because I kept having to collect him > from downstairs and return him (-: Yeah I know what you mean. Cats are naturally very curious and inquisitive and will want to explore as much as poss. Him not being outside yet is arousing his curiosity, especially that he sees you going there often. Can;t remember if you said there was a way of making some sort of and extra door/hallway I think you said no... In which case you probably need to create some negative association with the door, perhaps even a cat repellant spray. But yes, he could escape and get under the car. Perhaps a baby gate with added wire mash? No he could climb it. Or maybe feed him just the second before you leave so he is otherwise engaged. I dunno. think of something he hates, then use it when you are coming in. My cats hate the sound of aluminum foil, so perhaps you could shake it as you are walking in to scare him off the door, providing he hates it of course. But you get the drift. > I'm not bothered about that - most of the fixed costs (cat tree, > scratching post, etc) will be the same, and the extra costs aren't really > a problem. That's great, cos everything else is just benefits and joy. >, he likes to sit up on his hind legs (-: Sweet thing :) Keep taking those pictures. Kittenhood flyes fast :) > > About 99.99%. Even if they are not from the same litter, kittens will > > bond greatly and quickly at this age. Long hours of being alone only with > > each other will strenghten the bond. I'd say they have practically 100% > > chance of to of them being close. Sex doesn;t make a difference to them (as long > > as you have them done later on of course :)) > > there's no real way of telling whether they are siblings, and I reckon > we'll only ever be able to guess. I'm very interested in your opinion that > it doesn't really matter whether they are or aren't siblings in the long > run. No, because they are still kittens. Everything is still fun for them, still exploring, developing and most importantly still no hormones to make them too territorial and mean. Well I suppose they have some hormones, but they will not kick in properly till their sexual maturity at around 6-7 months old for the boys I believe, hence the op being done at around 6 months in UK or just before. So you can drop 2 kittens together from different litter, and they will accept each other fine, and will have months together to bond before they become serious :) This is why adopting the kitten is much easier in general, cos they can acclimate to anything new. > Even just watching one play is pretty good fun - he has a cat nip mouse he > absolutely adores! Well since you are having fun with one, imagine doubling that fun :) I thought I'd stop at 2, and now have 4. And a guest. Who is more here then at his own home he he. And yes, I wouldn;t change it for the world! The more the merrier. Gee > Amanda > Can;t > remember if you said there was a way of making some sort of and extra > door/hallway I think you said no... I don't think I said anything about it - there's not room inside the flat,but he can't escape into the street. We're on the second floor, so he can go down to the first and then to the ground, but there's a front door to the common parts of the building. > I dunno. think of something he hates, then use it when you are coming > in. My [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > course. > But you get the drift. Coming in isn't a problem, he doesn't want to escape then, ever, because there are PEOPLE COMING IN!!! It's people leaving he doesn't like - the last person out of the flat in the morning has trouble, not the others. Another kitten might well help this as he won't feel so lonely. > > Can;t > > remember if you said there was a way of making some sort of and extra [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > can go down to the first and then to the ground, but there's a front door > to the common parts of the building. Oh sorry, must have been someone else's post, whose door opened to the main road :) > Coming in isn't a problem, he doesn't want to escape then, ever, because > there are PEOPLE COMING IN!!! It's people leaving he doesn't like - the > last person out of the flat in the morning has trouble, not the others. > Another kitten might well help this as he won't feel so lonely. That's good then. And easier to fix. New kitten will probably make him stay inside, although he may have already formed a habit where he's chasing after you. Try the thing with giving food just before you leave :) Or throwing him the toy to play with such as aluminum foil ball(they strangely like them) or ping pong ball to fetch, then shut the door :) Oh, and so glad about the new kitten's arrival tomorrow! You must be well chaffed! What;s his name gonna be? Is it he? :) Best wishes to y'all Gee > Try the thing with giving food just before you leave :) Or > throwing him > the toy to play with such as aluminum foil ball(they strangely like > them) or > ping pong ball to fetch, then shut the door :) I've tried both - he gives me that, "Do you think I'm stupid? I can see you've got your bag and you're wearing your suit!" look! > Oh, and so glad about the new kitten's arrival tomorrow! You must be > well > chaffed! What;s his name gonna be? Is it he? :) Yes - he's called Josiah (had to go with Elijah! Nearly went with Ahab, but my mother pointed out that they were enemies in the Old Testament, and that wasn't the best of omens (-: ) Amanda I think it's cruel to keep any animal with a fundamentally wild nature, indoors. It's ike caging birds. Yes, cats adapt - but at what cost ? > We've decided, as far as Elijah's concerned, to keep him for the moment. > The vet said almost all cats can and are happy kept indoors, but if [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Amanda > I think it's cruel to keep any animal with a fundamentally wild nature, > indoors. > It's ike caging birds. > Yes, cats adapt - but at what cost ? Cats can live happily indoors if they are given good care and lots of toys and attention. They will also be much safer, at least in most areas of the U.S. MaryL > > I think it's cruel to keep any animal with a fundamentally wild nature, > > indoors. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > MaryL My Tigger was an indoor/outdoor cat for 8 years. She lost a fight to the neighbors' younger cat and ended up at the vet with an abscess. After 2-3 days at the vet to get the abscess lanced and antibiotics they sent her home to heal. She never asked to go out after that. She isn't afraid of the outside as I've taken her out with me but she shows no interest in going out on her own. I can prop the door open to bring in groceries and she shows no interest at all. The only conclusion I can make is she decided her safe outside days were over. My Isabelle was found as a stray (she's 2). She has shown no interest in going out since we got her and is nervous if I carry her outside. Boots has been inside since he was 3 weeks old and totally freaks if I take him out. They have a large cat tree, lots of toys and each other to keep them occupied. They all enjoy sunning on the bow window sill ... well the two girls sun, Boots likes to chase the birds and attack the hanging plants (cat safe plants of course). Are they happy? They certainly seem to be and appear more contented than my Mabel was as an indoor/outdoor cat all her l3 years of life. We got Isabelle and found Boots last fall. They bonded almost immediately. Tigger took a longer to take to them but I found them all sleeping on the bed together yesterday and they all seem to hang out in the same room most of the time. I would image the kittens should adjust to each other quicker than older cats would. W > > > I think it's cruel to keep any animal with a fundamentally wild nature, > > > indoors. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > days at the vet to get the abscess lanced and antibiotics they sent her home > to heal. She never asked to go out after that. Yeah right ! The fact that you resort to lying merely underlines your own (subconscious) acknowledgement of the moral bankrupcy of incarcerating cats. She isn't afraid of the > outside as I've taken her out with me but she shows no interest in going out > on her own. I can prop the door open to bring in groceries and she shows no [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > W "Scumball" <scumball@btinternet.com> wrote in message > > > > I think it's cruel to keep any animal with a fundamentally wild > nature, indoors. It's ike caging birds. Hardly. How can you compare the birds cage to a house and possible a fenced garden? It's nowhere near the same. >> Yes, cats adapt - but at what cost ? At cost of them staying alive and healthy. Which part of that can you not understand? DO you also let your 4 year old out on the streets unsupervised? > > My Tigger was an indoor/outdoor cat for 8 years. She lost a fight to the > > neighbors' younger cat and She never asked to go out after that. > > Yeah right ! And you know the behavior of HER cats better then her how.......?????????? > The fact that you resort to lying merely underlines your own (subconscious) > acknowledgement of the moral bankrupcy of incarcerating cats. Just because you know how to use thesaurus it doesn;t mean you know anything about he cats. If you gonna discuss cats with people who love them, at least research the subject first. What other old fashioned and irrational believes must you have... Gee She never asked to go out after that. > Yeah right ! > The fact that you resort to lying merely underlines your own (subconscious) > acknowledgement of the moral bankrupcy of incarcerating cats. I don't know why you find this so hard to believe. It makes sense to me that if an animal is to survive it knows not to revisit a situation that it has found to be dangerous. Tigg was well aware that the cat next door had been trying to claim our yard as her territory for a while. Tigg also found out that she was no longer able to protect her territory so she chose to not put herself in harms way again. As opposed to an outside only cat, Tigger had choices and chose to stay inside, safe, and uninjured. The signs of an intelligent cat if you ask me. Intelligence might not be something your well acquainted with. Civility certainly isn't. W > She never asked to go out after that. > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > intelligent cat if you ask me. Intelligence might not be something your well > acquainted with. A rather feeble-minded attempt at an insult. Are you a middle-aged housewife ? > Civility certainly isn't. If only you could extend the same civility to cat-kind. > W > > I think it's cruel to keep any animal with a fundamentally wild nature, > > indoors. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Cats can live happily indoors if they are given good care and lots of toys > and attention. They will also be much safer, Yeah, that's great for YOU - but at what price to the cat ? at least in most areas of the > U.S. > > MaryL > > I think it's cruel to keep any animal with a fundamentally wild nature, > > indoors. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > MaryL My cats love being outside, they run about in the garden chasing field mice and digging up moles to play with and eat. Is that considered bad? In my opinion it is only natural instincts for a cat to want to hunt and play outside. Cageing a cat up in a house is a terrible thing to do. Who wants to be in jail? James "James Marz" <marzproject@yahoo.com> wrote in message > My cats love being outside, they run about in the garden chasing field > mice and digging up moles to play with and eat. Is that considered > bad? In my opinion it is only natural instincts for a cat to want to > hunt and play outside. Cageing a cat up in a house is a terrible thing > to do. Who wants to be in jail? Sure. So let them out to kill or be killed. Wonderful! <sigh> Is that what you do as well? Since, as a caveman, your natural instinct is to hunt, kill and beat up your woman? Gee > James > "James Marz" <marzproject@yahoo.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > James You are the actually the one keeping your cats in your cave. It would be quite funny if my cats somehow got killed by a mouse or mole by playing freely in my garden. If you were a country boy you would understand. There is very little traffic here. Why did you go on the defensive and start the name calling for? That was uncalled for Gee. I don't call you names for being homosexual, so why call me names for letting my cats run footloose and fancyfree in the garden? James > > "James Marz" <marzproject@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > > > James Ignore this idiot, James. I've plonked him/her/it (delete as you will) as it's so wilfully obtuse. > You are the actually the one keeping your cats in your cave. It would > be quite funny if my cats somehow got killed by a mouse or mole by [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > James "Scumball" <scumball@btinternet.com> wrote in message > Ignore this idiot, James. > I've plonked him/her/it (delete as you will) as it's so wilfully obtuse. Oh Scumbag, sorry- scumball, how funny YOU're saying that! hehe. The only reason you may have plonked me is cos you didn;t like me disagreeing with you and cos I kept winning the arguments - with ease, and you just can;t seem to take it. And that makes ME obtuse - how....???? Honestly! <sigh> Why can;t men ever take it when someone disagrees with them? Do you HAVE to be right or what, the sky will fall down? And if anyone disagrees with you, do you HAVE to attack them and inslut them or what, the sky will fall down? My God, how sad! Gee "James Marz" <marzproject@yahoo.com> wrote in message > > > My cats love being outside, they run about in the garden chasing field > > > mice and digging up moles to play with and eat. Is that considered [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > You are the actually the one keeping your cats in your cave. Being a caveman doesn;t mean you are keeping your cats in the cave James. It means you have old-fashioned opinions. > It would > be quite funny if my cats somehow got killed by a mouse or mole by > playing freely in my garden. Fair enough. But ehat about things such as many times mantioned cars, poisons, horrible people etc. They are all outdoors. Unless of course you have a fenced up gardens and your cats can;t leave your garden, but surely you would;ve stated that. Cos I have no objection against safe outdoors. > If you were a country boy you would understand. There is very little traffic here. If you were a city boy you would hopefully understand there is plenty of traffic here. > Why did you go on the defensive and start the name calling for? OMG you have to ask? 1. You approve of your cats murdering other innocent animals 2. You started name calling although indirect. 3. You insulted others by telling them that keeping their cats safe indoors is a terrible thing and a "jail" That was uncalled for Gee. I don't call you names for being homosexual, so > why call me names for letting my cats run footloose and fancyfree in the garden? > James Well I suppose I could apologize for calling you a caveman, but I wont, cos the comparasment was obvious: you have the old fashioned opinion that keeping cats indoors is a "terrible thing" and "Who wants to be in jail?" and that it's perfectly OK to let the cats out to do what nature said initially. Times change James, the life's moving on too fast and you have to move with it and make changes that suit you and others including your pets. But your opinions are still that cats should be let out, even though you've read what other people including me said: I lost my beloved QT to the road, so how you gonna tell me that I am now doing a terrible thing of keeping the rest safely indoors now? But you not only refused to change your opinion (which is your right I suppose) but also insulted others by saying what YOU said, so this is why you got called what I called you, so in a way its not really an insult, it's just means you have old fashioned opinions. Also, as for "name calling", I am not the one who started with the name-calling James. You may not have name-called me/others straight up, but you have implied. Same thing. You said "Who wants to be in jail?" - what does that sentence imply what people like me who keep the cats indoors are? The fact is, that keeping cats indoors is to keep them safe, therefore cannot possibly be "terrible", and that allowing the cats to hurt, kill and eat other animals when they have food at home is way more barbaric then you think. As much as I love my cats, I do not approve of them killing innocent animals since they don't need to. Animals have already died for their cat food, and no more lives are needed. Instead you not only allow them, but happily watch them commit the murder and are smiling at it because of some old fashioned opinion that cats should do this or that...! Despicable. Lastly, I had to laugh at your attempt to namecall me back(right after you moaned about me name calling you, he he). But here is a shocking twist in the story - I am a woman! I do like man, so no you didn;t insult me at all. But you did give me a right giggle, he he. (You judged by my nickname and the possibility of me being a woman never entered your mind. A bit old fashioned James, wouldn;t you say.) So I will apologize, if you can prove to me that you are not old fashioned. And no of course you don't have to. Gee Gee wrote something life changing here somewhere: >> You are the actually the one keeping your cats in your cave. >Being a caveman doesn;t mean you are keeping your cats in the cave James. It >means you have old-fashioned opinions. >> It would >> be quite funny if my cats somehow got killed by a mouse or mole by >> playing freely in my garden. > Fair enough. But ehat about things such as many times mantioned cars, > poisons, horrible people etc. They are all outdoors. Unless of course you > have a fenced up gardens and your cats can;t leave your garden, but surely > you would;ve stated that. Cos I have no objection against safe outdoors. >> If you were a country boy you would understand. There is very little traffic here. > If you were a city boy you would hopefully understand there is plenty of traffic here. >> Why did you go on the defensive and start the name calling for? > OMG you have to ask? > 1. You approve of your cats murdering other innocent animals Well Gee.. I did until the Mouse Police showed up and arrested my cats for serial murder. Apparently my cats didn't understand that killing and eating mice was now illegal. I did try to explain to the cats that this is 2004 and it is "old fashioned" for them to be chasing and killing mice and moles. So now I have to find a good lawyer to defend my cats. The district mouse attorney is going to try for the death penalty, under penal code 761.32 which states that cats are no longer allowed to kill mice outdoors, and penal code 761.33 which states that cats can't kill mice indoors either. Wow!! Don't I feel stupid for letting my cats outdoors to play in my garden! > 2. You started name calling although indirect. You are a stupid friggin idiot! Is that direct enough for ya? > 3. You insulted others by telling them that keeping their cats safe indoors > is a terrible thing and a "jail" There is nothing wrong with keeping cats indoors, I just happen to let mine go outside to play and be *real cats*. Instead of keeping them indoors only. >>That was uncalled for Gee. I don't call you names for being homosexual, so >> why call me names for letting my cats run footloose and fancyfree in the garden? >> James > Well I suppose I could apologize for calling you a caveman, Nah, thats OK, If letting my cats kill mice is a sign of me being a caveman then....Check out my club Gee.....*WHACK* *WHACK* Hey there Gee I know you are unconscience, but what do you say, you let me drag you back to my cave, to feed to my cats? No need for them to "murder" mice if they can eat you instead. > Animals have already died for their cat > food, and no more lives are needed. Instead you not only allow them, but > happily watch them commit the murder and are smiling at it because of some > old fashioned opinion that cats should do this or that...! Despicable. You are totally screwed up in the head! HaHaHa. Cats commiting murder!! Cats kill their prey not murder! There is a difference Gee (look it up). And yes I do sit and smile as I watch my cats move with such prowess and stealth tracking their little prey like a lion preying on a gazzele. They quietly and silently sneak up on a mouse and pounce on them and injure them just enough that they don't move out of pure fear. Then they will sit and play with the mouse until they get hungry enough to eat it. Hey thats life! It has always been this way Gee!! > So I will apologize, if you can prove to me that you are not old fashioned. <start> That would be hard to prove since I'm sending this out on telegraph <stop> James Marz I never read a cr#pier reply in my life, ok, well since Bob Brenchley really. I have no time for people like you who can't take anyone disagreeing with them thus resort to insults instead of maturity. I don;t need to comment back, cos you know what, you have just dug your own grave. Have a pleasant evening Gee Nice reply, JM ! Difficult to understand people who adopt a carnivore and then complain that it wants to hunt ! I guess they're incensed that their cats don't emulate their owners and adopt their nutty, vegetarian doctrines. Only goes to show how deranged they actually are. Pity their poor, imprisoned pets. > Gee wrote something life changing here somewhere: > [quoted text clipped - 84 lines] > > James Marz > Nice reply, JM ! If you thought that was a nice reply, you must be one of Bob Brenchleys personalities.He he. > Difficult to understand people who adopt a carnivore and then complain that > it wants to hunt ! Nobody complained about cat WANTING to hunt. I stated it that it does not NEED to hunt, and I don;t LIKE it to hunt, cos it does not NEED TO. Which part of it did you not understand? Wanting, liking and needing are 3 completely different words, and if you don;t believe me you may consult your best friend thesaurus :) > I guess they're incensed that their cats don't emulate their owners and > adopt their nutty, vegetarian doctrines. You got to this deviated conclusion how? > Only goes to show how deranged they actually are. Well if your delusion was correct maybe this statement would be correct. Which just shows how deranged your delusion is. May I just add: game set and maych he he. > Pity their poor, imprisoned pets. Pity you when you start grieving after your run-over pet. Gee > I think it's cruel to keep any animal with a fundamentally wild nature, > indoors. > It's ike caging birds. > Yes, cats adapt - but at what cost ? I am curious about the fundamentally wild nature part. I know the domestic cat was originally bred from wild animals but then so were we so.... tell me how my domestic cat who runs and hides under the bed if a noise outside scares her is wild. I think you are confusing our cats with pumas AG > > I think it's cruel to keep any animal with a fundamentally wild nature, > > indoors. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > AG He he, nicely said. He is also confusing the city enviroment, cars, nasty humans and poisons as cats NATURAL enviroment in which they should happily and safely abode! Go figure. Gee > > > I think it's cruel to keep any animal with a fundamentally wild nature, > > > indoors. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > wild. I think you are confusing our cats with > > pumas Read any decent cat-book. Cats are at but one remove from the wild. They do not need humans to survive. They are highly self-sufficient and readily become feral. > > AG > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Gee "Scumball" <scumball@btinternet.com> wrote in message > > > > I think it's cruel to keep any animal with a fundamentally wild > nature, indoors. It's ike caging birds. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > They do not need humans to survive. > They are highly self-sufficient and readily become feral. Nobody argues with that. We all know that cats are the wildest of domestic animals as someone nicely put it. We all know they could survive without the humans. That is not the issue. The issue is that CITY is NOT an enviroment for a cat to roam free with all the danger such as nasty people, cars and poisons. Also not all domesticated pets will be as streetwise as others, or would want to live outside. Enviroment has changed a lot since the cats were first domesticated. You are however living in the past thinking as if nothing has changed and that nobody should change with times. Gee >I think it's cruel to keep any animal with a fundamentally wild nature, >indoors. >It's ike caging birds. >Yes, cats adapt - but at what cost ? I agree ... provided you can provide the cat with a reasonable facsimile of wild nature and can deal with losing the occasional cat to preditors. I live in the country and have nothing but woods and pastures for miles in a couple of directions. My cats are completely free. They and I are comfortable with that and with the relatively low risk from humans, preditors, accidents, fights, and other factors that are at low density because of the natural nature of the area. However, if I lived downtown apartment in a big city letting them out would be irresponsible and would likely annoy the neighbors. Instead of expecting to loose one every couple of years to coyotes, I would expect to loose one every couple of months to traffic, angry neighbors, or malicious children. T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu) SPAM filter: Messages to this address *must* contain "T.E.D." somewhere in the body or they will be automatically rejected. |
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