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MUST give away Tonkinese!

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Phil - 29 Jun 2004 21:48 GMT
We have a Tonkinese female, about 6 years old, that we absolutely must get
out of the house.  We want her to have a good home, but the Tonkinese rescue
group has not been responsive, despite repeated efforts for their help.  The
cat must go.  She urinates huge amounts of urine periodically, so she must
be confined where she can not destroy property.  She is housed in a room and
gets attention, but she can not be a member of this household.  The vet says
she is healthy.  This last time, the cat jumped on our bed like she always
does, ambled over to us as my wife and I lay under the covers, and as she
walked across the bed, unloaded a 2 foot long mass of urine, spreading to
half a foot wide, and in a manner of minutes, soaked through a comforter,
electric blanket, two sheets, and partially into a brand new mattress.
Luckily, I saved the mattress.  The cat will do these kinds of things,
within 10 feet of perfectly clean cat box.  She will do it if people are
home or not.  We can not establish any pattern.  Typically happens once
every few weeks.

We have made the decision to relinquish ownership.  She has papers.  I just
want to make sure she has a good home, that can deal with her unusual
behaviors.  The cat is otherwise just fine, affectionate, playful (loves
chasing laser pointer dot, keeping away from eyes), eats well, etc..  Has
all claws, but is spayed.  Tolerates our 13 year old, laid back Dalmatian,
but the cat is more fearful of her than she needs to be.  The dog could care
less about the cat.

If anyone can direct me to someone who can help with rescue, I would
appreciate it.  We live in the San Francisco bay area.

Thanks,

- Phil
Sunflower - 30 Jun 2004 04:48 GMT
> We have a Tonkinese female, about 6 years old, that we absolutely must get
> out of the house.  We want her to have a good home, but the Tonkinese rescue
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> - Phil

This is not the description of a cat that is easily rehomed.  I can see why
rescue hasn't gotten back to you.   Most likely given her history, she will
be euthanized or cruelly spend the rest of her life in a small cage if they
even take her.  If you have any affection for this animal, then take her in
to the vet yourself and have her euthanized.  I understand why she can't be
a part of your family, but no other family is going to want her either.  You
owe it to her to make sure her last moments on earth are with the family she
knows and loves now. I know it's hard for you to euthanize her, but it's
part of the bargain you made when you gave her a home in the first place.
If you cannot provide her with a good life, at least provide her with a good
death.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 30 Jun 2004 14:02 GMT
<snip>
Recommending euthanasia without even getting details of what has been
done so far is unconscionable and reprehensible. The owner hasn't even
tried medication, which cures the majority of cats with this issue, and
it also should be noted that this behavior happens once every few weeks,
which makes the likelihood of correcting this problem even better.
Telling him to kill the cat is disgusting on your part.

Megan

                                   
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way."

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Sunflower - 30 Jun 2004 17:43 GMT
> <snip>
> Recommending euthanasia without even getting details of what has been
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Megan

No, it's reality.  I'm sorry if you don't like it. THe OP wants to rehome
the cat.  Period. He wasn't looking for suggestions as to try to deal with
the problem.  He "says" the vet found no problems, and although I don't know
what types of testing the OP had done, at this point, it doesn't matter.  He
wants the cat gone.  And as far as "medication" to cure the anxiety
urination issues, it only works about 20% of the time.  Yes, I know from
personal experience on that one, as well as working with our Humane Society.

There isn't one single sane person on the planet who *wants* to live in a
home with a cat peeing all over it.  Sure, we do sometimes when we think
it's a short term issue that can be cured, but other than making the cat
live in isolation in a room fully able to be washed down and disinfected
constantly, there has to be some sort of progress in the behavior for it to
be at all tolerated.  We share our homes with animals on the expectation
that they will modify their natural instincts somewhat to suit our human
fastidiousness.  If the animal can't adapt to being in a home, then all that
is left is being outside, euthanasia, or life in a cage.  A good death is
preferable to a bad life in my opinion and I consider a life spent in a cage
a bad life.

So the truth is, you have a unadoptible animal to anyone who knows the
story. What is going to happen to this animal?  He'll dump it off at the
shelter where it'll be euthanized by strangers or someone else picks the
animal out not knowing the past behavior  to give a home to and starts to
experience the same behavior,  and repeats the cycle.  How cruel to the cat
is that?

Better to accept the full responsibility of pet ownership and have the
animal euthanized than to pass the problem along to strangers and totally
traumatize the cat in it's last moments.
Phil - 30 Jun 2004 18:24 GMT
Well stated, however difficult it may be to accept.  We, as a family, and
even the breeder, recognize what may have to be done.  As you stated, we
also have to try and determine if the problem is at all fixable.  If not,
then passing it along to another person is irresponsible.  This is why I am
telling people exactly what they are getting.  I know that makes it harder
to place the cat, but it is the right thing to do.

- Phil

> > <snip>
> > Recommending euthanasia without even getting details of what has been
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> animal euthanized than to pass the problem along to strangers and totally
> traumatize the cat in it's last moments.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 01 Jul 2004 00:11 GMT
> No, it's reality.

What a bunch of bullshit. It doesn't have to be and killing a healthy
cat that has a yet undetermined cause for her issue is WRONG.

>I'm sorry if you don't
> like it. THe OP wants to rehome the cat.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> types of testing the OP had done, at
> this point, it doesn't matter.

Of course it matters, but you're so intent on making sure this cat is
murdered you didn't even bother to ask.

> He wants the cat gone.

Maybe so, but often people are so stressed by what's happening they
don't feel they have any other choice. Often when they receive support,
feedback and advice from those of us who have actual experience in
dealing with this issue, they have hope and go on to find a SOLUTION
that doesn't involve KILLING. The whole reason "most of us," with the
obvious exception of YOU, are here is to help people and give advice on
how the cat can keep its home. This is not
rec.pets.cats-kill-the-cat-because-you-can't-bother-to-find-a-solution.
It's a rescue group, and part of that means helping people find a way to
keep their cats.  

>And as far as "medication"
> to cure the anxiety urination issues, it
> only works about 20% of the time.

More bullshit. There are many medications used to deal with this issue
and 20% is not accurate for many of the ones I have experience with. FYI
the Tuft's behavior clinic reports a 90%+ success rate using Prozac.
There are other medications that are nearly as successful, and a lot of
it also depends on the cat. I have been in rescue for over 25 years and
currently have 24 cats, several of which came with urination issues. I
have also had cats in the past with same. I have had 100% success in
using medication, and have been successful using diet and supplements to
control two other cats with interstitial cystitis, which I suspect the
OP's cat may have.
I also know several people who have also had a 100% success rate using
medication, including a cat that sprayed for 6 years and was confined to
a basement for the last two years because he was destroying the house.
He was put on Prozac and has not had one single spraying incident since
and is now allowed in the rest of the house and he's been on it for over
a year now.

>Yes, I
> know from personal experience on that
> one, as well as working with our Humane
> Society.

Apparently you haven't had much, or done you homework.

> There isn't one single sane person on
> the planet who *wants* to live in a home
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> some sort of progress in the behavior
> for it to be at all tolerated.

For progress to be made there has to be investigation of why it happens.
Asking what has been done so far and offering ideas may help save this
cat, regardless of what the OP originally says. You want to go straight
to *killing* this cat. It's disgusting and if this is how you view
things you have ABSOLUTELY NO BUSINESS being in *any* aspect of rescue.

>We share
> our homes with animals on the
> expectation that they will modify their
> natural instincts somewhat to suit our
> human fastidiousness.

That's completely the wrong expectation, and nobody that thinks this way
should have animals. *Intelligent* people understand that you have to
provide an environment for the cat that allows it to exhibit "natural
behaviors" in a way that allows us to coexist peacefully. That's why we
have litterboxes and scratching posts, etc. You can't force or expect a
cat to be anything other than a cat.

>If the animal
> can't adapt to being in a home, then all
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> opinion and I consider a life spent in a
> cage a bad life.

That's why you make the commitment to get the cat out of the cage and
into a home, not KILL it! Yes, some cats are harder to home, but it can
be done and
it's wrong to kill a cat when there are still many things to try.
Apparently you don't think so and would rather play executioner.

> So the truth is, you have a unadoptible
> animal to anyone who knows the story.

Not necessarily, and especially when not everything has been tried.

> What is going to happen to this animal?
> He'll dump it off at the shelter where
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> behavior, and repeats the cycle. How
> cruel to the cat is that?

Or he could try medication, and try a diet to control possible
interstitial cystitis (which is VERY easy) and the cat may stop the
behavior.

> Better to accept the full responsibility
> of pet ownership and have the animal
> euthanized than to pass the problem
> along to strangers and totally
> traumatize the cat in it's last moments.

Accepting full responsibility of pet ownership does not include KILLING
a healthy animal that has a once every few weeks peeing incident. A
*responsible* pet owner understands that cats don't do this for no
reason, and will ask for help trying to find a solution. *Responsible *
people don't murder animals because they can't be bothered to do a few
simple things that might very well correct the problem. THAT'S reality.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Sunflower - 01 Jul 2004 16:43 GMT
I take it then that you are going to accept this animal into your home?  Our
shelter also currently has 2 other cats that were surrendered with
inappropriate elimination issues and who are fully healthy.  Would you like
to arrange transportation for them too?  And the 20% figure that I gave for
the behavior modification with Prozac is exactly what the 4 different vets
who work with the Humane Society also gave me.  It's also what I've
experienced personally with shelter cats and one of my own personal cats.
Medication did NOT help.  Two years of trying everything under the sun did
nothing, and my own cat became more and more anxious and nervous, which is
why I ended up fostering him and keeping him in the first place.  I do blame
it on his declaw, which he came to me with and had to be redone it was
botched so badly.  For that reason, he could not go out to the barn with the
feral colony that I maintain.  $1200 worth of medical tests, with all of
them coming back normal. What would you suggest now?

When someone's made the decision to relinquish an animal, that decision has
been made.  You might change the mind of 25% of them with further
information, but usually, they just end up relinquishing the animal later
when someone else is on the intake desk.  By the time the ads go out and the
shelter is visited, it's a done deal.  That animal either finds a new home,
or is tossed out. It's better that an animal be euthanized by an owner than
to be relinquished to some of the awful kill shelters I've seen, and better
to be euthanized than go to some of the no kill facilities I've seen as
well.  If an animal is living in a shelter situation, it's cruel to keep
them there longer than about 6 months.  Living life in a 30 inch cat tower
isn't a life.  Rescues themselves have a responsibility to not be cruel to
the animals in their charge, and making an animal live their life out in a
shelter is cruel.

Not all animals problems can be fixed and not all animals can be saved.
Since rescue resources are limited, they go further if you admit that there
are those that shouldn't be taken on, and help 5 other cats in their place.
That's also realistic.
Cat Protector - 01 Jul 2004 17:27 GMT
This from the person who suggested that the OP have the cat euthanized.

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> I take it then that you are going to accept this animal into your home?  Our
> shelter also currently has 2 other cats that were surrendered with
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> are those that shouldn't be taken on, and help 5 other cats in their place.
> That's also realistic.
Electric Nachos - 30 Jun 2004 19:36 GMT
What a horrible suggestion! Accordingly, perhaps your parents should have
killed you upon discovery of one of your flaws!!!

I think cats are about the dumbest creatures on this planet - but I would
never KILL them just because they won't go pee-pee in the cat-pot! What kind
of human are you!?!?

Just throw the damn thing outside. CATS LIKE TO BE OUTSIDE!!!!!!!

Sunflower wrote in message ...

>> We have a Tonkinese female, about 6 years old, that we absolutely must get
>> out of the house.  We want her to have a good home, but the Tonkinese
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>If you cannot provide her with a good life, at least provide her with a good
>death.
Wendy - 30 Jun 2004 20:07 GMT
> What a horrible suggestion! Accordingly, perhaps your parents should have
> killed you upon discovery of one of your flaws!!!
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Just throw the damn thing outside. CATS LIKE TO BE OUTSIDE!!!!!!!

<not touching the inside outside debate with a 10 ft pole>

Are you suggesting this cat be left out 24/7?

If not why do you thing putting the cat outside will stop the peeing when
she's inside?

W
Electric Nachos - 02 Jul 2004 07:29 GMT
Wendy wrote in message ...

>> What a horrible suggestion! Accordingly, perhaps your parents should have
>> killed you upon discovery of one of your flaws!!!
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>Are you suggesting this cat be left out 24/7?

Cats prefer the outdoors. Humans prefer the indoors. Cats are not human.

>If not why do you thing putting the cat outside will stop the peeing when
>she's inside?

Putting a cat outside will STOP a cat from Peeing INSIDE.

>W
Wendy - 02 Jul 2004 12:15 GMT
> Wendy wrote in message ...
> >
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> >W

OK then you are suggesting putting the cat outside all day, every day. Just
wanted to make sure I understood exactly what you were suggesting.

I can't say I can agree with your blanket cats prefer outside statement.
Just like people I'm sure they prefer inside in the rain, snow, cold
weather, when being picked on etc.

If a cat has always been inside they find being outside very stressful.

W
Linda Terrell - 02 Jul 2004 16:12 GMT
> > Wendy wrote in message ...
> > >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > >kind
> > >> of human are you!?!?
 
> OK then you are suggesting putting the cat outside all day, every day. Just
> wanted to make sure I understood exactly what you were suggesting.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> W

Right now, putting her outside seems to be the best thing.  Then you
can
keep her but not have to put up with the peeing.

Build/buy an enclosure for her -- outside cats end up not peeing at
all because
they get hit by cars, or killed by dogs or poison.  So keep her in
some kind
of enclosure.  Something simple with chicken wire and a cat tree and
covered
box inside.

LT

--
Cat Protector - 01 Jul 2004 07:20 GMT
That is terrible that you would suggest euthanasia. Unless the cat is
terribly sick and has no chance of being saved they should not be
euthanized. This problem might be easily solved and the cat most likely can
live a long and healthy life. You also can't predict that a cat will spend
the rest of their life in a cage. Haven't you ever heard of a no-kill
shelter?

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"Sunflower" <sunflwrNOSPAM@midsouth.rr.com> wrote in message
news:YJqEc.174772

> This is not the description of a cat that is easily rehomed.  I can see why
> rescue hasn't gotten back to you.   Most likely given her history, she will
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> If you cannot provide her with a good life, at least provide her with a good
> death.
Luvskats00 - 30 Jun 2004 07:43 GMT
Bless you for trying to find a home for this special needs cat.  Perhaps there
is a medical problem..or it is behavioral.  Can you get the vet to rule out a
medical disability? If so, then maybe a cat behaviorist can help you work out
this problem.  A feline behaviorist is either a vet of a PHD who has devoted a
career to cat behavior. I adopted a 6 year old spayed female last September
(already having a then 4 year old neutered male). For 3 months, she urinated
and deficated on the bedroom floor and on my bed. I was at my wits end. I
showered her with attention AND experimented with different litters. My cats
had been using newspapers (not litter) for years. Since she didn't care for
newspapers, I tried Fresh Step, store brand litter, and finally, Feline Pine.
She loves Feline Pine (my other cat doesn't care for it) and uses the box all
the time now.  

If none of this is of interest, then please try to locate local cat rescue
groups (I live in NY and found 3-4 groups through Petco. They work with them
and showcase adoptable cats in their retail stores.) Also, put up a flyer with
local vets....This may be a special needs kitty..maybe not.  Also, check with
petfinder.com. I don't know if this website accepts private listings, but if
you do a general search via location/cats, you will locate some local rescue
groups in your area..maybe they can take your cat or post a listing while you
play forster parent.  Much good luck to you.
Phil - 30 Jun 2004 18:16 GMT
The vet said there was minor bladder infection, which has been eliminated.
More significantly, the breeder stated to us that the cat has urinated
outside the litter box on occasion during the 5 years she had her, from
kttenhood, even urinating on her directly.  It was felt this would stop with
a loving home.  Not so apparently.  Your information on the rescue is
useful, and I will follow up on it.

- Phil

> Bless you for trying to find a home for this special needs cat.  Perhaps there
> is a medical problem..or it is behavioral.  Can you get the vet to rule out a
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> groups in your area..maybe they can take your cat or post a listing while you
> play forster parent.  Much good luck to you.
frlpwr - 05 Jul 2004 02:39 GMT
(snip)

> More significantly, the breeder stated to us that the cat has urinated
> outside the litter box on occasion during the 5 years she had her,
> from kttenhood, even urinating on her directly.

Sounds like this cat was used as a breeding queen.  It's not unusual for
overbred females to lose muscle tone and to have difficulty with
incontinence.  This poor girl is facing death because she was misused by
a breeder.

Since you mentioned unusually large quantities of urine, make sure the
vet has checked for diabetes.  Abundant urine is a classic symptom.
Wendy - 30 Jun 2004 12:30 GMT
> We have a Tonkinese female, about 6 years old, that we absolutely must get
> out of the house.  We want her to have a good home, but the Tonkinese rescue
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> - Phil

Did the vet do blood work and urine testing?

You didn't say how long you've had this cat. Is she recently adopted or have
you had her since kittenhood and this is a recent development? If the later
has something changed around your home?

If a medical problem has been completely ruled out then you have a
behavioral problem. You haven't said what you've tried to change this
behavior so I'll just throw out some thoughts.

Because of the quantity of urine you describe it almost sounds like she
holds her urine until she can't any longer. She might be afraid to use the
box or not like something about the box.

You could try Cat Attract litter http://www.preciouscat.com/ or just try
different textures/materials, scented/un-scented.

If you use a covered box, uncover it. If it isn't covered try a covered one.

The box might be in an area where there is too much traffic (human or
canine). She might be happier with a more private location. Make sure the
box isn't too close to her food.

If she poops in the box but won't urinate in it she might not like doing
both in the same box. You could try setting up a second box.

She might be stressed by the dog or any number of other things. You may want
to try a Feliway diffuser. Feliway puts pheromes into the air that can calm
the cat.

I hope you can find a solution to her problem because she will be almost
impossible to rehome unless this issue can be resolved.

Good Luck! I do understand your frustration.

W
Phil - 30 Jun 2004 18:10 GMT
I would like to respond to all who responded, but given the number of
responses, will need to be brief.

The vet did some work and detected a minor bladder infection, which was
cured with antibiotics.  Had her a year and a half.  Pretty much doing this
the whole time, although more of problem later on.  She is 6-1/2 years old,
and according to the breeder would occasionally have the urination problem
with her as well.  The breeder and us figured she may stop this with good
attention from us.  So, problem could have existed from kittenhood.  Don't
know.  The litter has not been changed, and is the same as the breeder used.
Litter box location and dual boxes have had no impact.  Both are uncovered.
We tried a covered one but that did nothing either.  The primary location
for the box is a bathroom that is almost never used.  The other box is in a
laundry room.  Since she is confined to one room now, there is just one
litter box in that room.  However, food is within 10 feet of the box..  She
did urinate and poop in the same box, but occasionally will urinate
somewhere else.  She even pooped once outside the box, but just 15 feet away
from it.  We tried Feliaway, but our house is decent sized and the cost of
this stuff is not cheap to use effectively.  We discovered a three foot by
three foot carpeted area she urinated on (must have been more than once),
which I cleaned up, and with Feliaway applied as directed, she never
urinated there again.  But, there is a LOT of house left.

Thank you for your comments.  We have someone who might be interested in the
cat.  Hopefully, she can find peace and comfort there.

- Phil

> > We have a Tonkinese female, about 6 years old, that we absolutely must get
> > out of the house.  We want her to have a good home, but the Tonkinese
[quoted text clipped - 69 lines]
>
> W
Wendy - 30 Jun 2004 20:13 GMT
> I would like to respond to all who responded, but given the number of
> responses, will need to be brief.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> - Phil

I gather you knew about this problem when you got her? If so I have to give
you credit for giving it a try.

W
Phil - 01 Jul 2004 01:01 GMT
Yes, we knew she had urinated in inappropriate places.  The breeder did not
make much of it, but it was felt this would cease if she got a better home,
lots of attention, plenty of space, very comfortable surroundings, and
quietness.  She was confined to a bedroom with another cat at the breeder's
house.  We tried working with the cat for a year and a half.  Vet visits,
tests, FeliAway, cat box locations, number of cat boxes, etc.. Nothing has
worked.

Yes, we tried.  I don't know where this cat would be had we not come along.

- Phil

> > I would like to respond to all who responded, but given the number of
> > responses, will need to be brief.
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> W
Wendy - 01 Jul 2004 12:13 GMT
> Yes, we knew she had urinated in inappropriate places.  The breeder did not
> make much of it, but it was felt this would cease if she got a better home,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> - Phil

They do sell diapers for cats. Might help as a temporary measure.

http://www.joybies.com/pagecat.html

W
Cat Protector - 01 Jul 2004 16:03 GMT
A nice idea. But do they work? If the problem is not medical then it is
psychological and I do know that they have psychics for animals. That too is
a solution because the credible ones can get to the source of the problem.

Signature

Panther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs!
www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek

Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time!
www.catgalaxymedia.com

>They do sell diapers for cats. Might help as a temporary measure.
>
> http://www.joybies.com/pagecat.html
>
> W
Arjun Ray - 02 Jul 2004 18:22 GMT
| Yes, we knew she had urinated in inappropriate places.  The
| breeder did not make much of it [...]  We tried working with
| the cat for a year and a half.

So, why isn't the breeder taking the cat back?
Phil - 02 Jul 2004 19:15 GMT
The breeder can't because there is longer any room for it.  - Phil

> | Yes, we knew she had urinated in inappropriate places.  The
> | breeder did not make much of it [...]  We tried working with
> | the cat for a year and a half.
>
> So, why isn't the breeder taking the cat back?
-L. : - 04 Jul 2004 06:51 GMT
> The breeder can't because there is longer any room for it.  - Phil

That's completely unacceptable.  The breeder should take this cat
back, no questions asked.

This is why I freaking hate cat breeders.

-L.
-L. : - 04 Jul 2004 06:52 GMT
> The breeder can't because there is longer any room for it.  - Phil

That's completely unacceptable.  The breeder should take this cat
back, no questions asked.

This is why I freaking hate cat breeders.

-L.
-L. : - 04 Jul 2004 06:52 GMT
> The breeder can't because there is longer any room for it.  - Phil

That's completely unacceptable.  The breeder should take this cat
back, no questions asked.

This is why I freaking hate cat breeders.

-L.
Arjun Ray - 07 Jul 2004 04:42 GMT
|> So, why isn't the breeder taking the cat back?
|
| The breeder can't because there is longer any room for it.

Then this breeder deserves to have whatever there is of his/her
reputation completely destroyed.  Breeding is a sick business
anyway, but those among them who don't even take cats back are
truly scum.
Luvskats00 - 07 Jul 2004 06:32 GMT
>...  Breeding is a sick business
anyway, but those among them who don't even take cats back are
truly scum.
 

Maybe there is a certain "time frame" in which the breeders are obligated to
take the cat back. Perhaps it's unreasonable to hold the breeders to a lifetime
guarantee...or a year, which i think was the time the guardian had the sick
cat.
Arjun Ray - 07 Jul 2004 07:36 GMT
| Maybe there is a certain "time frame" in which the breeders
| are obligated to take the cat back. Perhaps it's unreasonable
| to hold the breeders to a lifetime guarantee

Um, no.

There is no reputable rescue organization that I know of that
doesn't have a return policy.  And this is a commitment by people
who weren't even responsible for the cats existing to begin with.

A breeder *is* responsible for a cat existing at all, and if that
doesn't obligate a lifelong commitment, then nothing ever could.
Breeders who try to evade this through "limited warranties" and
whatnot are scum, in my book.

In this case, the cat was *known* to have a problem before the
adoption.  Phil was willing to give it a try.  That in no way
allowed the breeder to be done with the cat.  In fact, I'm amazed
that the breeder is trying to beg off in this case.  It only
deepens the contempt in which I hold all breeders.
MaryL - 07 Jul 2004 11:44 GMT
> | Maybe there is a certain "time frame" in which the breeders
> | are obligated to take the cat back. Perhaps it's unreasonable
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> doesn't have a return policy.  And this is a commitment by people
> who weren't even responsible for the cats existing to begin with.

I agree.  Our local O'Malley Alley Cats organization guarantees that they
will take back any cat at any time.  In fact, people who adopt from them are
required to sign an agreement that the cat will be returned to O'Malley if
the adopter decides to give up the cat for *any* reason.  Unfortunately, one
was returned just this week and is being fostered until another home can be
found.  (Husband and wife are divorcing.)

MaryL
Tracy - 08 Jul 2004 03:43 GMT
> > | Maybe there is a certain "time frame" in which the breeders
> > | are obligated to take the cat back. Perhaps it's unreasonable
> > | to hold the breeders to a lifetime guarantee

Well, it seems clear that the cat is a breeding casualty, used by an
unscrupulous breeder to excess and then more or less dumped at an
advanced age on Phil (who will hopefully learn from this experience
not to buy cats from crappy breeders), or preferably not to buy cats
at all. It's a sad story. The best thing I can think of to do is to
try, patiently, to rehome the cat as a "special needs cat" with either
a breed rescue, no-kill shelter or owner who is used to dealing with
special needs cats. It's possible, but it sure isn't easy and it will
take some time. Since the urinary problems are most likely related to
excessive breeding and probably some psychological stress (from the
breeder, not Phil, I hope the necessary patience can be found. If I
were the owner of the cat, I'd also find some cat breeding
organizations, the CFA if no one else, and rat out this breeder for
irresponsible and callous behavior. It's totally unacceptable behavior
to farm out a used-up queen with physical damage and then refuse to
take her back. Makes me sick.
Cat Protector - 01 Jul 2004 07:24 GMT
You say the litter has not been changed? If you don't clean the litterbox no
wonder the cat is going to the bathroom outside of it.

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> I would like to respond to all who responded, but given the number of
> responses, will need to be brief.
[quoted text clipped - 110 lines]
> >
> > W
Phil - 01 Jul 2004 07:34 GMT
The cat litter brand has not been changed.  It is the same the breeder was
using.  The litter itself is cleaned every day, and changed out on a less
frequent basis.

- Phil

> You say the litter has not been changed? If you don't clean the litterbox no
> wonder the cat is going to the bathroom outside of it.
[quoted text clipped - 130 lines]
> > >
> > > W
Mary - 07 Jul 2004 17:38 GMT
>You say the litter has not been changed?

LOL!
Cat Protector - 01 Jul 2004 07:16 GMT
I have to wonder if you even went to a vet to have this problem looked into.
I think it is terrible you think this cat is disposable. I hope this cat
gets a good home because you obviously care more about your property (which
can be cleaned or replaced) than this cat. Why is it that people like
yourself treat this cat like a beer can? This is a life we are talking
about. Would you get rid of a human child if they had a medical issue?
Though some might applaud that you are wanting to see this cat in a good
home, I have to wonder if you'll get another cat that you'll end up dumping
into a shelter or on the street because you chose not to handle your
lifelong responsibility. This cat deserves better and I hope she gets a good
and loving home because obviously her humans do not care enough to give her
the very best care. If you decide to keep her then a vet can possibly find
the problem if it is medical. It might be easily solved or it may be stress
that is causing it.

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www.catgalaxymedia.com

> We have a Tonkinese female, about 6 years old, that we absolutely must get
> out of the house.  We want her to have a good home, but the Tonkinese rescue
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
>
> - Phil
Phil - 01 Jul 2004 08:17 GMT
Well, I figured a response like this would come along sooner or later.  If
you read three of my other responses in this thread you would not have to
wonder if we had the problem looked into by a vet.  We have.  I never said
the cat is "disposable".  Do I care more about my property than the cat?
Well, there is a balance!  I expect and tolerate occasional mistakes and/or
damage from a pet.  But, no sane person is going to tolerate $1500
mattresses, $1000 couches, etc. being destroyed by a cat, on a regular
basis.  Sure, it can be cleaned (sometimes), or replaced, but there is no
way I am willing to spend that kind of money, CONSTANTLY, to keep a cat.
Nor am I willing to have guests over and have their belongings urinated on.
It may be worth it to you, and maybe you can even afford to do that, but
personally, I think that's nuts.  Moreover, I am not obligated to adhere to
your standards, so quit trying to apply them to me.

Treat a cat like a beer can?  You know precious little about how I treat a
cat.  You don't know that the last cat we had was also a rescue kitten, that
we kept her for 17 years and euthanised after she was falling apart due to
old age, and suffering.  Our other cat was a also a rescue kitten who found
another home.  I, and my wife love animals, with both of us rescuing
everything from a spider in the house, to rattlesnakes and other snakes on
the road, to lost kittens and dogs, and injured birds.  With all due
respect, you are clueless on how I treat animals or this cat, so cut the
judgment crap.

Yes, it is a life we are talking about, and I am doing all that I can to
ensure the cat gets the best life possible.  I could take the most expedient
solution and just drop her off at the ASPCA.  But, I am not doing that.  If
your standards for "life" are so high, do you care about the snakes I
rescue, or do you even blink an eye when you see one hit or run over on the
road?  A squirrel? Deer?

Your equating of human child with a cat is course, laughably absurd.  If
that were at all sensible, then I guess I ought to be telling my daughter,
"sorry can't pay for the college tuition because we have some expensive
ongoing vet bills to pay".  Ridiculous.  I expect reasonable vet bills, but
there is a limit. You have yours (maybe), I have mine.

We might get another cat.  Or some other pet.  If it is a problem, we will
have to find a better life for it.  Period.  Of course, we always look for a
pet that appears to be a good fit for our home.  Dumping on the street or
shelter?  Gee whiz, I AM here on this board, trying to find a good home.  If
I was inclined to do as you suggest, why am I here?

Trust me, this cat has gotten very good care.  Again, you have zero idea of
the care we have given, so your assertions are baseless.  But, if you are so
certain my level of care is poor, and that destruction of property is
tolerable, then you won't have any problem taking the cat will you?  ....I
thought so...

Your kind of response does absolutely NOTHING to help the cat, which I would
expect is what you want.  Your energies are directed at trying to assail
people who don't fit with your "cat on a pedestal" mentality.  If you really
cared about the cat, you would come up with something useful to say.  You
should know this is the second time I have visited cat forums for help, and
both times, I get your kind of drivel.  Fortunately, some of the other
posters have posted helpful information, a feature sorely missing in your
rant.

If nothing else, remember this.  I came here for some help.  Your kind of
response just turns people away or ticks them off, which may mean they will
do the very thing you abhor.  Dump on the street, shelter, or euthanize.
How well does that sit with you?

- Phil

> I have to wonder if you even went to a vet to have this problem looked into.
> I think it is terrible you think this cat is disposable. I hope this cat
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
> >
> > - Phil
Cat Protector - 01 Jul 2004 16:01 GMT
You proved exactly my point. You care more for property than the cat. Things
can be replaced, a life can't. Besides didn't you state earlier that you
adopted the cat knowing the problem? How can you take in a special needs cat
the one minute and then get rid of them the next? That is a pretty cold
thing to do. You also adopted from a breeder instead of giving a cat in a
shelter awaiting adoption a good home. Buy adopting from a breeder you do
nothing to help in the overpopulation problem. As for the 17 year old
rescue, it is funny you mention that when someone is bold enough to say they
are against you tossing a cat out like a beer can. You also now state that
you might get another cat and if they too are a problem will re-home them.
How can you be so cold?

People like yourself should not adopt an animal unless you are willing to
give them love and care for the rest of their life. Having a cat is a
lifelong responsibility not some part-time one where if a problem happens
the cat goes.  You say my posts do nothing to help the cat but it does. It
ensures that there are people willing to take a stand against those
irresponsible humans who feel the cat is disposable when the problem can be
easily solved. You mention how important your stuff is ratgher than how
important the cat is. You say that if I cared about the cat that I should
come up with something useful to say. Well I have but you just aren't
listening. I first said get the cat to a vet and have this looked into but
post after post you said they couldn't find a problem or that you have no
idea what it is. You then started to complain about how your stuff is being
ruined or how much it costs. That does nothing more than say "I care more
about the money and my stuff than the cat."

I see people like you every day who drop cats off at the shelter or re-home
a cat because they discover they can't handle the responsibility. Every one
of them has an excuse like they are moving, new baby, my SO or I am is
allergic, and any other weak reason for doing what they do. Too many humans
are using shelters as drop-off points and they are filled to capacity
because of the ever increasing overpopulation problem and also because some
humans feel that when a problem happens they'd rather end their
responsibility. I feel bad for the many cats that end up in shelters. Sure
you didn't dump the cat out in the street but you also are making excuses by
adding to the overpopulation problem and sending a message to many that it
is ok to get rid of the cat if any problem arises. I hope you will not adopt
another cat that needs a good and loving home unless you are fully prepared
to take on the responsibility for not just part of the animals life but
their entire lifetime.

As for your theory of my kind of message making people mad or resulting in
dumping of the cat, that is pretty week. Before I even posted you made the
decision to get rid of the cat. What kind of message do you think you are
sending? At least when I have adopted a cat I did not dump them as soon as a
problem has arisen. If anything my message says that every cat deserves a
good and loving home and that adopting one takes great responsibility and
care. If you are unprepared for the responsibility then don't adopt so you
can ensure that cat has a long and happy life with a human who will take on
that lifelong task.

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www.catgalaxymedia.com

> Well, I figured a response like this would come along sooner or later.  If
> you read three of my other responses in this thread you would not have to
[quoted text clipped - 126 lines]
> > >
> > > - Phil
Phil - 02 Jul 2004 19:36 GMT
I responded to you inadvertently by private e-mail, and offered my apology
for that.  It would serve little purpose to repeat those private e-mail
dialogues here.  Suffice to say we each feel the other is 100% wrong and no
amount of postings will ever change that.  I had indicated we are done and
you wished your response would be the last e-mail.  This is the end.

- Phil

> You proved exactly my point. You care more for property than the cat. Things
> can be replaced, a life can't. Besides didn't you state earlier that you
[quoted text clipped - 203 lines]
> > > >
> > > > - Phil

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