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Cat Forum / General Topics / June 2006Indoor kittens and indoors/outdoors cat -- how to manage?
We've just adopted two beautiful kittens and want to keep them indoor only. However, we already have a cat that comes in and out as she pleases. We have a Staywell door but while that keeps neighborhood critters out of the house, it does not restrict indoor critters from going out. Does anyone know of a door that (perhaps with different key/collars) can be set up so that the cat with the collar can go in/out but the kittens are barred from exiting. Or any other kind of strategy? Please don't suggest making the outdoor cat and indoor one -- that's just not an option. And for fun, check out www.the-sign.us/cats/ -- the new boys are on display. Thanks > We've just adopted two beautiful kittens and want to keep > them indoor only. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > And for fun, check out www.the-sign.us/cats/ -- the new > boys are on display. Why not just let the new cats out..? It's cruel to restrict cats to an indoor life IMHO, except for exceptional situations such as if the cat is FIV+. Ivor >> We've just adopted two beautiful kittens and want to keep >> them indoor only. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Ivor I couldn't disagree more. A lot of things can happen to your cat outdoors, mostly bad. If you've ever had to endure the sudden loss of a loved cat you might think differently. If a cat has never been let outdoors, they don't know what it is like and so don't miss it. We eventually converted an indoor/outdoor cat to indoor only when we pledged to keep new adoptee in. It worked very well and we now have an all indoor household, except for when we go out with them and keep them tightly sealed in the back yard (tall vinyl privacy fence that they can not scale or leap over. (the bottom is completely sealed) They are MUCH safer in (or out with supervision or short bursts on their own) as we live in an area that is adjacent to greenbelts etc. which are probably home to predators. It can be done. They still whine once or twice a day to go out but are very safe now when they do! >>> We've just adopted two beautiful kittens and want to keep >>> them indoor only. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > loved cat you might think differently. If a cat has never been let > outdoors, they don't know what it is like and so don't miss it. [snip] > > Why not just let the new cats out..? It's cruel to > > restrict cats to an indoor life IMHO, except for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > differently. If a cat has never been let outdoors, they > don't know what it is like and so don't miss it. Doesn't make it any the less cruel. We've had cats for 30+ years, all have been outdoor cats and nothing has ever happened to any of them. And yes, I have had one die suddenly on me, so I know exactly what it was like. Yes, he did die while outdoors, he was found lying on a neighbour's driveway, but it was a natural death (according to the vet, anyway). Ivor > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Ivor Young cats extremely rarely die suddenly of natural causes. An autopsy would have determined just why, but you were probably too cheap to pay for one. Letting your cats out to be run over in city traffic isn't cruel, but keeping cats inside their whole lives where they are safe is cruel? Fortunately uninformed older people that think like you are dying off. I agree with the aforementioned comment about the dangers of letting a cat outside. Depending on where you reside, allowing a cat free roam of the outdoors welcomes many different dangers such as predators, diseases, being hit by cars, etc and so on. We had an outdoor cat for most of my life, and when we adopted decided that it would be in the new kitten's best interests to remain indoors. We decided to leave the house pet door free and just allow the outdoor cat in and out as it cries. To allow the indoor cat a little bit of freedom we would place her in a cat harness and allow her to go outside tied on her rope with our supervision the entire time. I hope that this helps a little.... Britt > > [snip] > > [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > keeping cats inside their whole lives where they are safe is cruel? > Fortunately uninformed older people that think like you are dying off. [snip] > Young cats extremely rarely die suddenly of natural > causes. An autopsy would have determined just why, but [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is cruel? Fortunately uninformed older people that think > like you are dying off. You didn't read what I wrote. Did I say my cat who died outside was young..? In actual fact he was 18+ at the time and used to roam for quite a distance. Incidentally, I probably spend more money at the vet in a month than you do in a year, so don't presume. Cats are naturally outdoor creatures, so yes keeping them indoors permanently is cruel. The area around here is relatively safe, we live in a road with little traffic (no through traffic as it's a dead end) and all our cats for the last 30 years have been perfectly fine. Incidentally, are you in the USA..? It seems to be the US that is becoming so fanatical about keeping cats indoors, all I can say is if you live where you don't think it is ok to let cats out then don't have them. If you genuinely love cats and want to do something positive for them, go and volunteer at a rescue shelter as I do. Ivor "Ivor Jones" <ivor@despammed.invalid> wrote in message > so fanatical about keeping cats indoors, all I can say is if you live > where you don't think it is ok to let cats out then don't have them. I live in an apartment in the middle of the city. Between the very real likelihood of my cat getting hit by a car or getting lost if I let her out *anywhere*, it would be extremely irresponsible for me to even *consider* letting her out, even on the balcony. She doesn't *know* outside and in that respect doesn't miss being there. She's 16 months old, healthy, happy, playful and isn't constantly crying to get outside. Your unspoken insinuation that any owner is selfish for owning a cat where it isn't allowed to go out is short-sighted and very obviously misguided. [snip] > Your unspoken insinuation that any owner is selfish for > owning a cat where it isn't allowed to go out is > short-sighted and very obviously misguided. No it's not. Cats are outdoor animals. You are the selfish one for keeping them prisoner. Ivor > [snip] > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Ivor No, Ivor, I do not agree. We adopted 3 cats (2 were facing euthanasia). We keep 2 inside, and they are very happy--are not interested in going into the great outdoors. Anyone who can give a cat a good, loving home, whether indoor or outdoor, is ok in my book. Stop being so judgemental. [snip] > No, Ivor, I do not agree. It's your right to disagree. It's my right to say you're wrong. > We adopted 3 cats (2 were facing euthanasia). We keep 2 > inside, and they are very happy--are not interested in [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Stop being so judgemental. Better an indoor home than none at all, I agree, but it is still fundamentally wrong in my book and I've had cats for 30+ years and worked at a rescue shelter for 4 so I think I know a little about cats and what's best for them. Not everyone lives in the backwoods of the USA where predators are lurking around every corner. Ivor >> Young cats extremely rarely die suddenly of natural >> causes. An autopsy would have determined just why, but [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Ivor I encourage you to go to a cat show and tell the breeders they are cruel to keep indoors their cats worth thousands of dollars. You're likely to get your a.s kicked. BTW I adopted a cat from a shelter in my youth and I kept him indoors his whole life. When you do find one of your cats run over don't come crying to us. [snip] > I encourage you to go to a cat show and tell the breeders > they are cruel to keep indoors their cats worth thousands > of dollars. You're likely to get your a.s kicked. BTW I > adopted a cat from a shelter in my youth and I kept him > indoors his whole life. When you do find one of your > cats run over don't come crying to us. That's another cruelty, breeding cats purely for show. There are thousands upon thousands of unwanted cats in shelters worldwide, people should adopt one of those and not breed yet more. BTW I don't have an a.s, horse or any other equine animal, what's that got to do with it..? Even if I did why would anybody want to kick it..? Ivor > > > Young cats extremely rarely die suddenly of natural > > > causes. An autopsy would have determined just why, but [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > I encourage you to go to a cat show and tell the breeders they > are cruel to keep indoors their cats worth thousands of dollars. They *are* cruel. These people who breed cats for show hate animals, and lead lives totally devoted to profit and transient, meaningless peer-pressure. They should all be locked up in mental institutions and lobotomized. > You're likely to get your a.s kicked. There's nothing they hate more than being told they're profiteers and animal haters. However, they're unlikely to kick anyone's a.s, as most of them are so fat they can't lift their legs high enough. > BTW I adopted a cat from a shelter in my > youth and I kept him indoors his whole life. That is DISGUSTING. You should be ashamed of yourself. In fact, I've a good mind to report you to a variety of animal-cruelty and Police authorities, you utter creep. Hang your head in shame, for keeping an animal indoors "his whole life". Appalling. > Cats are naturally outdoor creatures, so yes keeping them indoors > permanently is cruel. The area around here is relatively safe, we live in > a road with little traffic (no through traffic as it's a dead end) and all > our cats for the last 30 years have been perfectly fine. Cats are "naturally" outdoor creatures, sure, I'll give you that. But so were humans. Why aren't you living outside and why are you wearing clothes??? Cats are naturally desert creatures.. so why are you keeping them in your residential area? Cats are naturally strict carnivores.. so why are you feeding them food loaded down with carbohydrates? Look.. Cats adapt perfectly fine to living strictly indoors. I have six cats, and they are VERY happy. Occasionally a door is left open, and most of the time they don't even go outside, and if they do it is simply to satisfy their curiosity, not to 'escape' into their "natural" world.. If I were being "permanently cruel" to them, I wouldn't have the close loving relationship that I have with them - which I am sure is a heck of a lot closer than you have with yours who are often gone. And just because YOU have had extremely good luck keeping cats that go outside, does NOT mean that every cat should go outside. A cat that lives an indoor/outdoor existence has a life expectancy of 3 to 5 years.. as opposed to the 16-20 for the indoor cat. (and don't tout that your cats lived long lives.. this is the life expectancy, not a absolute. Some cats go out and die the next day) as to the OP, I'd recommend switching to a strictly indoor situation as well, but once cats have expanded their territory to include the outside, SOME cats have a very hard time adapting to the smaller territory. In that case, you have to weigh a possibly shorter life span vs quality of life. There is no devise that Im aware of (and I did research for my own cats - I need to give one of mine access to a room that no one else can get into) and the keyed door is the only option, and they only go one way. What you could do is build a tunnel. Put one keyed door on one side, and another on the other - facing the other way. > > Cats are naturally outdoor creatures, so yes keeping > > them indoors permanently is cruel. The area around here [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you that. But so were humans. Why aren't you living > outside and why are you wearing clothes??? Because I live in the UK and it's bloody freezing..! > Cats are naturally desert creatures.. so why are you > keeping them in your residential area? Hmm, that's a new one, source of information, please..? I don't doubt you, but I've never heard that one before. > Cats are naturally strict carnivores.. so why are you > feeding them food loaded down with carbohydrates? How do you know what I'm feeding them..? > Look.. Cats adapt perfectly fine to living strictly > indoors. I have six cats, and they are VERY happy. Occasionally a door [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I have with them - which I am sure is a heck of a lot > closer than you have with yours who are often gone. You do not know me, my cats or the relationship I have with them, do not presume. I love my cats far more than any human, I promise you. > And just because YOU have had extremely good luck keeping > cats that go outside, does NOT mean that every cat should [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > lived long lives.. this is the life expectancy, not a > absolute. Some cats go out and die the next day) Source of your figures, please..? Are you speaking for the UK or are you one of those people who think the world ceases at US borders..? I know people in city centres who have had outdoor cats for long periods, a friend's cat recently died (of natural causes) at age 19, she had been an outdoor cat her whole life, on a *very* busy road. Ivor > > Cats are naturally outdoor creatures, so yes keeping them indoors > > permanently is cruel. The area around here is relatively safe, we live [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > But so were humans. Why aren't you living outside and why > are you wearing clothes??? What a ridiculous, whining retort! You could then argue that humans are inherently vicious hunters, and should hunt, kill, and eat cats, because it's the "natural way". Don't be stupid, you useless, cruel cow. > Cats are naturally desert creatures.. so why are you keeping > them in your residential area? If they're "naturally desert creatures", then why are you keeping them locked-up in your house, you disgusting sh.t? You should be stopped - by force, if necessary - from keeping cats. > Cats are naturally strict carnivores.. so why are you feeding > them food loaded down with carbohydrates? And YOU don't?! Don't be a hypocrite, shithead! > Look.. Cats adapt perfectly fine to living strictly indoors. No they're not. They're screaming, inside. Stop trying to justify your laziness and cruelty. > I have six cats, and they are VERY happy. They're NOT happy. They're miserable, being kept prisoner in such miserable circumstances. You need your head examined, you cruel bastard. > Occasionally a door is left open, and most > of the time they don't even go outside, That's because they're terrified. A state of mind which YOU have created. Be ashamed, bitch. > and if they do it is simply to satisfy their > curiosity, not to 'escape' into their "natural" world.. Poor things. How they must hate you. > If I were being "permanently cruel" to them, I wouldn't have the close > loving relationship that I have with them - which I am sure is a heck > of a lot closer than you have with yours who are often gone. You wish. Admit it. You're a nasty, horrible person. And cruel. > And just because YOU have had extremely good luck keeping cats > that go outside, does NOT mean that every cat should go outside. > A cat that lives an indoor/outdoor existence has a life expectancy of > 3 to 5 years.. as opposed to the 16-20 for the indoor cat. (and don't > tout that your cats lived long lives.. this is the life expectancy, not a > absolute. Some cats go out and die the next day) While YOUR cats are dying inside, and they take years to do it. Disgusting. > as to the OP, I'd recommend switching to a strictly indoor situation as > well, but once cats have expanded their territory to include the outside, > SOME cats have a very hard time adapting to the smaller territory. In > that case, you have to weigh a possibly shorter life span vs quality of life. Jesus. What a terrible thing to say. In fact, it makes you sound insane. And sexually frustrated. > There is no devise that Im aware of (and I did research for my own cats - > I need to give one of mine access to a room that no one else can get > into) and the keyed door is the only option, and they only go one way. > What you could do is build a tunnel. Put one keyed door on one side, > and another on the other - facing the other way. It's people like you that staff concentration camps. I'm reporting you to all the animal welfare groups I can find. > Why not just let the new cats out..? It's cruel to restrict cats to an > indoor life IMHO, except for exceptional situations such as if the cat is > FIV+. Hey, thanks, Ivor, for completely derailling the thread, so instead of answering my question about a cat door, you moved it into a flamefest regarding indoor v. outdoor cats -- which is best? And did the rest of you HAVE to take the bait and keep it going? Aren't there like a bazillion discussions on that topic? And does anyone's mind get changed? NO !! Okay back to my original request: >> Does anyone know of a door that (perhaps with different key/collars) >> can be set up so that the cat with the collar can go in/out but the >> kittens are barred from exiting. >> >> Or any other kind of strategy? Please don't suggest making the outdoor >> cat an indoor one -- that's just not an option. Erik, I appreciated that you were the only to stay on topic, but I already have the kind of door you suggested. I need something a little more sophisticated. Any flaming of me will be ignored -- honestly, I am just looking for some answers, not to get pulled into any kind of debate. Thanks Morgan they do have a computerized version of the door with a electronic signal key that you attaches to the cat's collar they use it mostly for dogs but it is small enough to work on cats if I find the info I will post it but most modern petstores should have it but it cost around $200 or more There is a guy who designed a photo door admittance his cats kept bring their kills inside so he developed a system that would recognize a outline of the cat minus the kill in the cat's mouth >> Why not just let the new cats out..? It's cruel to restrict cats to an >> indoor life IMHO, except for exceptional situations such as if the cat is [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Thanks >>> Does anyone know of a door that (perhaps with different key/collars) >>> can be set up so that the cat with the collar can go in/out but the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > already have the kind of door you suggested. I need something a little > more sophisticated. Have a look at the Staywell 500 series of cat doors. They appear to have a unique coded collar key. I can't beleive noone's made a catflap which read the identichips. I had a look into making one myself a while back but it was going to end up costing about 150 GBP so I gave up in the end. >>>> Does anyone know of a door that (perhaps with different key/collars) >>>> can be set up so that the cat with the collar can go in/out but the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > the identichips. I had a look into making one myself a while back but it was > going to end up costing about 150 GBP so I gave up in the end. It seems to me a cat is clever enough to figure out how to go thru a cat door at the same time another cat is going thru if it really wants to get out. On the issue of it being cruel to the cat, well, there's cruelty to cats, and then there's cruelty to the birds, chipmunks, and other wildlife in the area. Given an indoor cat on average live 4 times longer, do you or should you try to have old age cats? It would be like you living to 300. Do you really want to live that long even if you could afford it? IMO I would > Given an indoor cat on average live 4 times longer, do you or should > you try to have old age cats? It would be like you living to 300. Do > you really want to live that long even if you could afford it? there exists special doors with a magnetic belt so for the belted cat, the door will open, but the unbelted will be staying before without making the door to open... better ask this question again in the pet-shop, they know more (and in better english...) Erik > We've just adopted two beautiful kittens and want to keep them indoor > only. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > Thanks Keep this in mind: Outdoor cats have an average life expectancy of 4 years Indoor cats have an average life expectancy of 15 years Having said that: Why not make your current indoor/outdoor cat an indoor cat only and get rid of the cat door completely? I don't think there's currently a door on the market that has "selective animal exiting". > Keep this in mind: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > only and get rid of the cat door completely? I don't think there's currently > a door on the market that has "selective animal exiting". While I think, for practical reasons, it is safer and easier to keep a cat indoors, there is a valid argument that from a cat's point of view, this is not a great situation. (FWIW, my cat is an indoor cat. She isnt street smart.) To persuade an indoor/outdoor cat to stay in is hard on the cat. If a cat never knew different, then of course a cat can be happy indoors. Our cat is thoroughly contented as long as there's company. But cats I had years ago who were indoor/outdoor lived very different lives and I personally think of higher quality. They would not have chosen to stay indoors all the time. Its like a person who spends their whole life in one village. Someone who has wandered around the world might consider it limiting, but there are millions of perfectly happy people who do it. DB > Keep this in mind: > > Outdoor cats have an average life expectancy of 4 years > Indoor cats have an average life expectancy of 15 years David, I don't want to have this thread veer off again to indoor/outdoor cat -- which is best. As I wrote in my original email: >>Please don't suggest making the outdoor cat an indoor one -- that's just not an option. While you may disagree with my choice, please respect it. All I am looking for is a door that not only prevents unwanted animals from coming IN, but will also prevent certain animals from going out. > > Keep this in mind: > > > > Outdoor cats have an average life expectancy of 4 years > > Indoor cats have an average life expectancy of 15 years Not around here. > David, I don't want to have this thread veer off again to > indoor/outdoor cat -- which is best. As I wrote in my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > While you may disagree with my choice, please respect it. I cannot respect that which is fundamentally opposed to my core beliefs. I accept it is your decision, but I do not and never will believe that it is your decision to make. Make of that (and me) what you will, I will make no further comments. Ivor > > Keep this in mind: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > looking for is a door that not only prevents unwanted animals from > coming IN, but will also prevent certain animals from going out. Most people here really love cats. How can you expect any of us to respect a choice you make that endangers your cats? Your request is unreasonable, and your decision to endanger you cat very sad. Ivor -- you write over 300 posts a months -- you don't have any "core beliefs", you just can't SHUT UP, apparently. I thought the rec.music.guitar folks were annoying, but it seems as Ivor and logorrhetic ilk are determined to hog every newsgroup conversation. I found what I was looking for -- now everyone jump back in and fight tooth and nail whether 'tis better to have indoor cats or not. Thanks for reminding me why newsgroups have become so irrelevant. Ooh, now let's talk about whether kitties should be fixed or not !! (so out of here) |
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