Cat Forum / General Topics / October 2004
Tri colored cats all female?
|
|
Thread rating:  |
dgk - 14 Oct 2004 21:12 GMT I suppose I could check Google but I'm here so...
Someone at the cat show said that all tri-color (or tri-colour for my British friends) cats are female, or, if male, are sterile.
Seems odd but he was showing his purebreds so maybe he knew what he was talking about. Does white count as a color?
Ted Davis - 14 Oct 2004 21:20 GMT >I suppose I could check Google but I'm here so... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Seems odd but he was showing his purebreds so maybe he knew what he >was talking about. Does white count as a color? The male version of tourtose shell is red tabby - of calico is red tabby and white. These colors are sex linked, though a tourtose shell mated to a red tabby can produce red tabby females (I once had three tamed feral red tabby and white sisters - there motehr was calico, and they had an unusual white mark that matched that of the neighborhood red tabby male).
T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu) SPAM filter: Messages to this address *must* contain "T.E.D." somewhere in the body or they will be automatically rejected.
kaeli - 14 Oct 2004 22:15 GMT > I suppose I could check Google but I'm here so... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Seems odd but he was showing his purebreds so maybe he knew what he > was talking about. Does white count as a color? TRUE tricolors [1] are almost always female because it requires 2 X chromosomes. Male tricolors are therefore XXY.
See this for a pretty good explanation (and source of below quote): http://www.fanciers.com/cat-faqs/tricolors.shtml
[1] "A true tricolor must have one of its colors derived from the red gene -- either red (orange) or cream (kind of a light, orangy beige, not unlike the color many people call "ginger"). If it does not have one of these two colors, it is not a true tricolor. The second color must be white, and the third color must be black, blue (a blue-gray), chocolate, lilac (a pale rose- beige), cinnamon, or fawn (a pale buff color). Black and blue are by far the most common."
 Signature -- ~kaeli~ Frisbeetarianism (n.), The belief that, when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck there. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
Bobcat - 14 Oct 2004 22:19 GMT > I suppose I could check Google but I'm here so... > Someone at the cat show said that all tri-color (or tri-colour for my > British friends) cats are female, or, if male, are sterile. > Seems odd but he was showing his purebreds so maybe he knew what he > was talking about. Does white count as a color? Tortoiseshell and tricolor (calicoin America) cats are almost always female. The very few male exceptions -1 in approx 200, I've heard - are almost invariably sterile, and it's genetic. Here's a convoluted description of why. Lotsa luck reading it! ___________________
"The term tortoiseshell cat refers to a coloration pattern caused by a combination of specific genetic traits. It is not a specific breed of cat A cat breed is an infrasubspecific rank for the classification of domestic cats. A cat is considered to be of a certain cat breed if it is true breeding for the traits that define that breed. Only three percent of owned cats belong to a cat breed, and an even smaller percentage of those are suitable as show cats. A breeding certificate proves that a cat belongs to a cat breed by showing the cat's pedigree back to at least four generations. The whole concept of cat breeds is a relatively new one. Two hundred years ago there was no such thing. Today there are almost a hundred cat breeds. Varieties of domestic cat can also be identified by characteristics other than breed. The tortoiseshell markings appear in many different breeds. The coats of tortoiseshell cats are a mixture of colours. It is often reserved for cats with coats that look like black and orange patches, while calico cat is typically two-thirds white, with orange and black patches on their backs. Their coats may also combine red or ginger, and occasionally silver or ginger tabby patterns. The size of the patches can vary from a fine speckled pattern to large areas of colour. Cats with a basic white colour and red and black patches are known as tortoiseshell-and-white in Britain, or, in the United States, calico. Coat coloration in cats is complex. The genes involved include the Orange gene, O, which in its dominant form, O, produces orange fur, and in its recessive form, o, produces black fur. For a cat to be calico, it must simultaneously express two genes, O and o, which are located at the same location on the X chromosome A sex-determination system is a biological system that determines the development of sexual characteristics in an organism. Most common sex-determination systems in animals involve a genetic mechanism based on the chromosomes of that organism. However, other systems can involve other variables such as temperature. The details of some sex-determination systems are not yet fully understood. Occasionally a male is born. These have Klinefelter's syndrome Klinefelter's syndrome is a condition caused by a chromosomal abnormality in males (specifically, a nondisjunction); sufferers have a pair of X sex chromosomes instead of just one. The XXY chromosome arrangement is a common genetic abnormality, occurring as frequently as 1 in 1,000 male births, but the symptoms that may result from having the extra chromosome are less common. Because of this extra chromosome, individuals with the abnormality are usually referred to as "XXY Males" rather than as "suffering from Klinefelter's syndrome and are almost always sterile." _______________________
http://encyclopedia.thefreedictionary.com/Tortoiseshell%20cat
Aren't you glad you asked? <g
Electric Nachos - 14 Oct 2004 22:48 GMT Gee. Just think. NONE of this valuable information would have been known if the animal mutilators (a.k.a. spay-ers and neuter-ers) in this group got a hold of them first.
Bobcat wrote in message ...
>> I suppose I could check Google but I'm here so... >> Someone at the cat show said that all tri-color (or tri-colour for [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > >Aren't you glad you asked? <g Bobcat - 15 Oct 2004 12:52 GMT > Gee. Just think. NONE of this valuable information would have been known if > the animal mutilators (a.k.a. spay-ers and neuter-ers) in this group got a > hold of them first. I can't stand to go into an animal control building where they house unwanted cats and kittens until they find homes for them, or euthanize them. The odds of the latter fate are high enough,even with conscientious cat-owners (you call us "animal mutilators") neutering and spaying their animals. Imagine the numbers of little tragedies if no one did.
Ted Davis - 15 Oct 2004 13:50 GMT >> Gee. Just think. NONE of this valuable information would have been >known if [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >and spaying their animals. Imagine the numbers of little tragedies if >no one did. One queen and one tom - live 15 years and have one litter of four every year; each litter has two females. Assume all kittens survive and live to age 15.
At the end of the first year, there are three females. At then end of the second year there are nine females (three adult females and six female kittens - plus the males equals 18 cats where there were two); the end of the third year brings the total females to 27 and the total cats to 54. When the original female dies after her fifteenth litter, she leaves 14 348 906 female descendents - 28 697 812 counting the males.
In order to avoid obvious hypocracy, anyone advocating that kind of population explosion, which is what someone objecting to neutering is, in effect, advocating, would have to provide homes for all those cats. I'm not sure Bill Gates could afford to keep a female cat and meet his responsibility for all the offspring for any length of time.
T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu) SPAM filter: Messages to this address *must* contain "T.E.D." somewhere in the body or they will be automatically rejected.
Electric Nachos - 16 Oct 2004 01:01 GMT Ted Davis wrote in message ...
>In order to avoid obvious hypocracy, anyone advocating that kind of >population explosion, which is what someone objecting to neutering is, >in effect, advocating, would have to provide homes for all those >cats. I'm not sure Bill Gates could afford to keep a female cat and >meet his responsibility for all the offspring for any length of time. Speaking of HOMES, did you know that CATS are perfectly capable of surviving without humans?
And did you know, that CATS managed to survive during the time that humans were nomadic?
Imagine that.
CATS NOT NEEDING HUMANS or their population and <choke> health care </choke> MANipulations!
wow
>T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu) ???
I *know* you from some other newsgroup...
R U a DOS Batcher?
>SPAM filter: Messages to this address *must* contain "T.E.D." >somewhere in the body or they will be automatically rejected. Ted Davis - 16 Oct 2004 01:12 GMT >Ted Davis wrote in message ... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >CATS NOT NEEDING HUMANS or their population and <choke> health care </choke> >MANipulations! Those that don't interact with humans obviously are not the topic of this discussion. Those that depend on us for something, if only garbage, are.
>??? > >I *know* you from some other newsgroup... > >R U a DOS Batcher? Yes. If you know me that well, you also know I bait trolls and other obnoxious users for a round or two, then killfile them. I think it time to killfile you.
-- T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu)
Electric Nachos - 16 Oct 2004 01:59 GMT Ted Davis wrote in message ...
>>Ted Davis wrote in message ... >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >obnoxious users for a round or two, then killfile them. I think it >time to killfile you. Idiot - you just said you lure people that you don't want to talk to. See a doctor about that.
<PLONK>
>-- >T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu) kaeli - 15 Oct 2004 17:13 GMT > > Gee. Just think. NONE of this valuable information would have been > known if [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > and spaying their animals. Imagine the numbers of little tragedies if > no one did. Troll alert:
> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&threadm=10mulerc9ccuq6b%40corp.superne ws.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fhl%3Den%26lr%3D%26q%3D%2522electric%2Bnachos%2522%2 Bkittens%26btnG%3DSearch Have fun. ;)
 Signature -- ~kaeli~ Never argue with an idiot! People may not be able to tell you apart. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
kaeli - 15 Oct 2004 17:17 GMT > Gee. Just think. NONE of this valuable information would have been known if > the animal mutilators (a.k.a. spay-ers and neuter-ers) in this group got a > hold of them first. You're not the brightest bulb in the box, are you?
 Signature -- ~kaeli~ Never argue with an idiot! People may not be able to tell you apart. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
Arjun Ray - 18 Oct 2004 00:46 GMT >> Gee. Just think. NONE of this valuable information would have been known >> if the animal mutilators (a.k.a. spay-ers and neuter-ers) in this group >> got a hold of them first. > > You're not the brightest bulb in the box, are you? A brain transplant from the nearest turnip patch would be an upgrade.
Melissa - 15 Oct 2004 16:52 GMT > I suppose I could check Google but I'm here so... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Seems odd but he was showing his purebreds so maybe he knew what he > was talking about. Does white count as a color? Tortishells are almost always female. Male tortishells are almost always sterile. There almost never is an always with animals. They'll go out of their way to prove you wrong. Male tortishells are almost always sterile because they need to have two X chromosomes to provide the color. A male cat that is XXY is most often going to be sterile. There are exceptions though. A male cat can have cells that are XXY and have cells that are normal XY. These males can be tortishells and not be sterile because they can make some normal sperm. So it is possible, but not probable to have a non-sterile tortishell.
Cat Protector - 15 Oct 2004 18:24 GMT Interesting topic. I do think white counts as a color. Of course that is a pretty bold statement to say that tri-color males are steral. There are plenty of tri-colored cats out there that are male and unless you neuter them they can father kittens. Of course you didn't mention what breed you are talking about.
I entered my cat Icarus in the HHP category for a CFA cat show this Saturday. When the clerk wanted to know his color, I emailed her a picture of him. He has silver/black tabby markings but when I received my entry she listed him as a brown classic tabby color. I guess this how a lot of tabby colors get classified.
 Signature Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com
>I suppose I could check Google but I'm here so... > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Seems odd but he was showing his purebreds so maybe he knew what he > was talking about. Does white count as a color? kaeli - 15 Oct 2004 19:09 GMT > Interesting topic. I do think white counts as a color. Of course that is a > pretty bold statement to say that tri-color males are steral. There are > plenty of tri-colored cats out there that are male and unless you neuter > them they can father kittens. Of course you didn't mention what breed you > are talking about. CP - a "true" tricolor, as defined by the cat breed people (whoever made them boss of terms). Generically, a tortoiseshell or calico, with or without white. Tabby and white doesn't qualify as a tricolor.
You know - the "logic" of science where they call something a term that isn't entirely accurate. A "true" tricolor has two different expressions of the red gene, which requires 2 X chromosomes. Any male expressing it therefore must be XXY - an anomaly that renders all but 1 in 30 thousand (or some really small number: see site I quoted in my other post) as incapable of producing viable sperm. Thus, they are sterile. Most human males who are XXY (Klinefelter syndrome) are also sterile.
Also note that calico and tortoiseshell cats do not have fathers of those color patterns. The father is usually ginger or black. This is color genetics. The mother is often calico and tortoiseshell though.
When you find a calico or tortoiseshell male that has sired kittens, let us know. It'd be neat to see. It's very, very rare.
 Signature -- ~kaeli~ The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and three hundred sixty-two admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
Cat Protector - 15 Oct 2004 19:22 GMT Shouldn;t white be considered? I think with the Japanese Bobtail they count the white as a color. As for being sterile, the only proven meathod of proof of steralization is by neutering.
 Signature Cat Galaxy: All Cats! All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com
> CP - a "true" tricolor, as defined by the cat breed people (whoever made > them [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > us > know. It'd be neat to see. It's very, very rare. kaeli - 15 Oct 2004 21:20 GMT > Shouldn;t white be considered? I think with the Japanese Bobtail they count > the white as a color. Well, they're talking about "tricolor" much like one talks about pinto horses. Pinto horses aren't a breed, it's a color pattern. Tricolor doesn't really mean any old 3 colors. It specifically means 2 shades from the red gene and one from black. So you can get blue/tan "dilute" torties from this as a tricolor. As to the rest of the color patterns, white is a complimentary color or alone. Such as tabby and white, calico and white (technically 4 colors, yet a tricolor), and so on.
> As for being sterile, the only proven meathod of proof > of steralization is by neutering. People, and animals, can have problems with having babies. If sperm is not viable, it can't fertilize an egg. The male tricolors make sperm, but the sperm is usually badly deformed, dead, so to speak, and never makes it to the female's egg. If it does, even then, it rarely fertilizes the egg. Mules, the offspring of horses and donkeys, are always sterile as well. You don't get a mule by breeding two mules. There are many reasons why an animal, including a human, may be unable to bear/produce young. Neutering is the only way of sterilizing a fertile animal.
 Signature -- ~kaeli~ He's your God, they're your rules - you burn in Hell. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace
|
|
|