 |
 | Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us |
 | Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network |
| HomeDiscussion GroupsGeneral TopicsCat AnecdotesHealth and BehaviorRescue CatKB.com Contact UsLink To UsSearch & Site Map |
Cat Forum / General Topics / June 2007How much space for a cat?
Greetings. I am considering getting a kitten to keep my little ferret company while I'm at work. From what I read, cats and ferrets usually get along just fine provided that they're introduced at an early age. My only concern is that my apartment might be too small. I have only one largeish room with a small kitchen and bathroom -- the total area is 40 m². Will a small cat be happy with this or do I need to think about getting a bigger place? I intend to keep the pet as an indoor cat only. (Of course, I don't mind taking it for walks every day should it be one of those rare individuals who take to walking with leashes.) Also, how much attention will I need to give the cat? I play with my ferret for at least a couple hours a day (any less and she sometimes keeps me up at night), so I'm hoping I can combine playtime. Regards, Tristan  Signature_ _V.-o Tristan Miller [en,(fr,de,ia)] >< Space is limited / |`-' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= <> In a haiku, so it's hard (7_\\ http://www.nothingisreal.com/ >< To finish what you >Greetings. > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Regards, >Tristan Cats do not make suitable apartment pets. Then need access to the outside world. And cats dictate the level of attention, not their human slaves :) SignatureBob. When the cat's away there are fewer hairs on the armchair. Looks like more bad advice from Bob Brenchley. Cats are just fine for apartments. Bob do us all a favor and leave the newsgroup and leave it to experienced cat people. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Cats do not make suitable apartment pets. Then need access to the > outside world. > > And cats dictate the level of attention, not their human slaves :) >Looks like more bad advice from Bob Brenchley. Cats are just fine for >apartments. Bob do us all a favor and leave the newsgroup and leave it to [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> And cats dictate the level of attention, not their human slaves :) This from a top-posting moron! SignatureBob. Light travels faster than sound. This is why you appear bright until we hear you talk. Yes, you are the top posting moron here. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com "Bob Brenchley." <Bob@format.publications.ukf.net> wrote in message > This from a top-posting moron! >Greetings. > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >for at least a couple hours a day (any less and she sometimes keeps me up >at night), so I'm hoping I can combine playtime. On average, if you believe anything BB tells you, you will go wrong - ignore him as most of the rest of us do. Cats will generally adapt to whatever space they have, but the less space, the more effort required to make sure they get enough exercise. Indoor cats also benefit from being given coarse grasses to nibble on - wheat, oats, or even popcorn sprouts. You will also need climbing and clawing things. I've seen as many as fifteen cats in about the same area as you have, but the place stank. The cats were happy enough. I have about a dozen in little over twice that space, but they know they can go out any time they want, they just mostly don't want to in cold and wet weather. T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu) SPAM filter: Messages to this address *must* contain "T.E.D." somewhere in the body or they will be automatically rejected. >>Greetings. >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >On average, if you believe anything BB tells you, you will go wrong - >ignore him as most of the rest of us do. Stupid Troll! >Cats will generally adapt to whatever space they have, but the less >space, the more effort required to make sure they get enough exercise. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >they can go out any time they want, they just mostly don't want to in >cold and wet weather. If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. >T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu) >SPAM filter: Messages to this address *must* contain "T.E.D." >somewhere in the body or they will be automatically rejected. SignatureBob. You couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full of horny clues if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the clue mating dance. Greetings. > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to > allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each > day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being > cruel, selfish, or both. My grandparents' cat is indoor only, and to me it doesn't seem any more or less happy than any outdoor cat I've come across. I know for a fact it's more physically healthy than many outdoor cats I know, since it has no opportunity to be mauled by a stranger. Anyway, as I said, I fully intend to take the cat for walks every day provided it's willing and can learn to walk with a leash. Regards, Tristan Signature_ _V.-o Tristan Miller [en,(fr,de,ia)] >< Space is limited / |`-' -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= <> In a haiku, so it's hard (7_\\ http://www.nothingisreal.com/ >< To finish what you "Tristan Miller" <psychonaut@nothingisreal.com> wrote in message > My grandparents' cat is indoor only, and to me it doesn't seem any more or > less happy than any outdoor cat I've come across. I know for a fact it's > more physically healthy than many outdoor cats I know, since it has no > opportunity to be mauled by a stranger. Or by car/poison/fox/dog/desease/. Here is a lot of info about Indoor cats and why do it indoor way, excellent site: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Pointe/9352/indoors.html I learned far too late and in the worse possible way that cats should be kept indoors, and only after my beloved QT got run over. My other 4 are now living a very happy indoor life and like yours will, go out only on a safe leash and cat harness. And even though I let them stay outside as long as they want, they usually want back in only 15 min to 1/2 hr on nicer days. They definitly prefer things I have done for them inside, like a tall cat tree, cat bedroom on top of the cupboard, cat stairs on the walls, another bad on another cupboard, delicious food, lots of toys and attention, and above all my love. Living in a flat is absolutely fine for a cat or two or three or four. Think up not just sideways :) Cats would live on the ceiling if they could. Check out this: http://www.thecatshouse.com/ about an amazing couple who love their 9 cats so much they have redecorated the house to suit the cats. It is so amazing what they;ve done that their book about it is regularely sold out. Check it here, there are some pic of the house as well http://www.thecatshouse.com/books/bk_01.htm or on amazon: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0836221834/qid=1075950831//ref=sr_ 8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/102-7973665-5362543?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 > Anyway, as I said, I fully intend to take the cat for walks every day > provided it's willing and can learn to walk with a leash. Came across this, about training the cat to walk on leash: http://cats.about.com/library/howto/htwalkleash.htm Gee >"Tristan Miller" <psychonaut@nothingisreal.com> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Or by car/poison/fox/dog/desease/. Foxes have never been known to harm a healthy cat. If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both. SignatureBob. You couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full of horny clues if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the clue mating dance. >If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to >allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each >day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have >a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being >cruel, selfish, or both. Just subscribed to this group, you're like a stuck record, aren't ye? Find it quite bizarre that you would spend so much of your time trying to antagonise people. Of course cats should be free to roam, - so should dogs/budgies/hamsters/people - but there are very few places where that is possible. We have made society that way. So if you take the decision to home a cat you also take with it the responsibility of making sure its needs are met - and that means ensuring it is safe and well looked after. To call people abusers for keeping cats indoors in a stable environment is just preposterous. Jacqueline (UK) >>If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to >>allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >well looked after. To call people abusers for keeping cats indoors in >a stable environment is just preposterous. When you take on the responsibility of homing any pet, one of the important aspects is providing a proper environment for it. Cats need space to roam, that is part of their nature. Dogs can't be given that for human safety reasons. Hamsters are not native to the UK, but need proper housing. People, unless imprisoned for a crime, do have a large degree of freedom. >Jacqueline >(UK) SignatureBob. Cats know what we feel. They don't always care, but they know. >>Of course cats should be free to roam, - so should >>dogs/budgies/hamsters/people - but there are very few places where [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >important aspects is providing a proper environment for it. Cats need >space to roam, that is part of their nature. It's part of every animal's 'nature' to roam, establish territory and find food but we've moved on slightly from the laws of the jungle. Cats have been domesticated and as such are provided with food, shelter and territory. They adapt to their environment, just like we adapt to the structures imposed on us. > Dogs can't be given that for human safety reasons. Foxes are essentially canine but they have 'freedom to roam' and don't attack humans. You only think it's normal for dogs to be walked around on leads because that's your experience. > Hamsters are not native to the UK, Nor are cats, they were introduced by the Romans. > but need proper housing. In a cage? Why can't they be let out to roam? Because they might get eaten or killed? Ah, but it's their nature to forage for food! >People, unless imprisoned for a crime, do have a large >degree of freedom. We don't have freedom to do as we please. You can't wander onto someone's land and claim it as your own. You can't go around killing people and eating them just 'cos you're hungry. We impose rules for the sake of our civilisation - and that includes allowing animals in our care to have a healthy, fulfilled, good life. It's your opinion that cats need access to fields and roads to have that, but many millions with happy indoor cat owners would disagree, so you can't claim your opinion is any more valid than theirs. >>When you take on the responsibility of homing any pet, one of the >>important aspects is providing a proper environment for it. Cats need >>space to roam, that is part of their nature. > >It's part of every animal's 'nature' to roam, establish territory and It is, and where the animal's "nature" does not endanger humans (as it would with a free roaming pack animal like the dog) then we have to do our level best to provide the animal with what it needs. >find food but we've moved on slightly from the laws of the jungle. >Cats have been domesticated and as such are provided with food, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Foxes are essentially canine but they have 'freedom to roam' and don't >attack humans. Foxes are wild animals, in addition they are not generally pack animals. >You only think it's normal for dogs to be walked around >on leads because that's your experience. > >> Hamsters are not native to the UK, > >Nor are cats, they were introduced by the Romans. Reintroduced. >> but need proper housing. > >In a cage? Certainly not. > Why can't they be let out to roam? Because they might get >eaten or killed? Ah, but it's their nature to forage for food! [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >the sake of our civilisation - and that includes allowing animals in >our care to have a healthy, fulfilled, good life. Which cats get if they are treated correctly - as an indoor/outdoor animal. > It's your opinion >that cats need access to fields and roads to have that, but many >millions with happy indoor cat owners would disagree, Oh I know there are many ignorant people out there, and many who do know that they are abusing their cats by keeping them in. >so you can't >claim your opinion is any more valid than theirs. Yes I can. Because my opinions are based on the opinions of experts like the RSPCA, Cats Protection, well respected experts in cats, our leading zoos, and the experiences of millions of cat owners around the world. The cat is the same - regardless of the country it lives in. The overwhelming majority of cats around the world get to lead proper lives with time outside. Why should American cats be any different? SignatureBob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. [snip] [hamsters] >>> but need proper housing. >> >>In a cage? > >Certainly not. So you lambast hamster-keepers then? I bet you're a popular guy with the kids. >>We don't have freedom to do as we please. You can't wander onto >>someone's land and claim it as your own. You can't go around killing [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Which cats get if they are treated correctly - as an indoor/outdoor >animal. Which cats get if they are treated correctly in a safe indoor environment. >> It's your opinion >>that cats need access to fields and roads to have that, but many >>millions with happy indoor cat owners would disagree, > >Oh I know there are many ignorant people out there, and many who do >know that they are abusing their cats by keeping them in. I suggest you are the blinkered one. >>so you can't >>claim your opinion is any more valid than theirs. > >Yes I can. Because my opinions are based on the opinions of experts >like the RSPCA, Cats Protection, I'm a member of Cats Protection and we certainly home cats to indoor environments and provide potential owners with how to care for them. Take a look at this month's magazine, there's an article on just that. >well respected experts in cats, our >leading zoos, and the experiences of millions of cat owners around the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >overwhelming majority of cats around the world get to lead proper >lives with time outside. Why should American cats be any different? Blinkered, blinkered. I used to think like you, I thought it was 'normal' for cats to be let out because that's what I was brought up to believe. But the overwhelming evidence against such a preposterous idea shifted my opinion. Incidentally, while I let my cats roam free - in an area I considered safe as I'm quite a distance from a main road - I had cats shot at, one kicked until it had a dislocated hip, they constantly came in with fleas and mites, and lumps of fur missing from fights with other animals. I don't think that's an acceptable or safe environment. You come across as being someone quite old with very static opinions, so I guess if you've thought like you do for 40 years you're unlikely to change now. Shame. Ignore him. Killfile him. But don't cater to him by responding. Based on my examination of his messages, I find that I cannot distinguish between those from him and those that would be generated by a badly written usnet troll robot program. That is, the sender of those messages fail the Turing test for intelligence in that while it can be distinguished from a normal human, it cannot be distinguished from a machine. T.E.D. (tdavis@gearbox.maem.umr.edu - e-mail must contain "T.E.D." or my .sig in the body) >Ignore him. Killfile him. But don't cater to him by responding. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >can be distinguished from a normal human, it cannot be distinguished >from a machine. Now do shut up you stupid troll. SignatureBob. I read your mind, and believe me, it was a short story... >[snip] > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >So you lambast hamster-keepers then? I bet you're a popular guy with >the kids. Keeping hamsters in a cage is cruel. There are proper ways to keep them, though most people do not have the necessary room. >>>We don't have freedom to do as we please. You can't wander onto >>>someone's land and claim it as your own. You can't go around killing [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Which cats get if they are treated correctly in a safe indoor >environment. What cats get if they are unlucky enough to have an abusive owner is 24/7 imprisonment indoors. >>> It's your opinion >>>that cats need access to fields and roads to have that, but many [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >I suggest you are the blinkered one. No, remember I'm one of the majority - a vast majority. Even in the USA indoor only cats are in a minority - though there are still far too many of them. >>>so you can't >>>claim your opinion is any more valid than theirs. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >environments and provide potential owners with how to care for them. >Take a look at this month's magazine, there's an article on just that. Cats Protection do not home healthy cats to indoor only homes - so don't try that lie again. >>well respected experts in cats, our >>leading zoos, and the experiences of millions of cat owners around the [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >so I guess if you've thought like you do for 40 years you're unlikely >to change now. Shame. The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats. SignatureBob. I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public. >>I'm a member of Cats Protection and we certainly home cats to indoor >>environments and provide potential owners with how to care for them. >>Take a look at this month's magazine, there's an article on just that. > >Cats Protection do not home healthy cats to indoor only homes - so >don't try that lie again. It's most certainly not a lie, two of my cats are from Cats Protection and were homed on the understanding they were indoor cats. I was vetted prior to their arrival and had check-ups afterwards. You're the one full of lies, mate. I'm an active member of my branch and I could give you countless examples of similar cases. Your 'facts' are just fabrications, go on believing what you will but you're certainly no authority to comment on anyone else's ability to look after their animals. >>>I'm a member of Cats Protection and we certainly home cats to indoor >>>environments and provide potential owners with how to care for them. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >It's most certainly not a lie, two of my cats are from Cats Protection >and were homed on the understanding they were indoor cats. ...and may I just add the word 'healthy' to that sentence. My cats were healthy, normal cats when I got them and remain so. >>>>I'm a member of Cats Protection and we certainly home cats to indoor >>>>environments and provide potential owners with how to care for them. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >...and may I just add the word 'healthy' to that sentence. My cats >were healthy, normal cats when I got them and remain so. Cats Protection do not home healthy cats indoors only. SignatureBob. Light travels faster than sound. This is why you appear bright until we hear you talk. >>>I'm a member of Cats Protection and we certainly home cats to indoor >>>environments and provide potential owners with how to care for them. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >It's most certainly not a lie, two of my cats are from Cats Protection >and were homed on the understanding they were indoor cats. Then they were not healthy cats. Cats Protection do not home healthy cats indoors only. >I was >vetted prior to their arrival and had check-ups afterwards. You're the >one full of lies, mate. I'm an active member of my branch and I could >give you countless examples of similar cases. Cats Protection do not home healthy cats indoors only. >Your 'facts' are just fabrications, go on believing what you will but >you're certainly no authority to comment on anyone else's ability to >look after their animals. The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats. SignatureBob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. >>>Cats Protection do not home healthy cats to indoor only homes - so >>>don't try that lie again. >Then they were not healthy cats. lol! My vet would probably disagree, given then he's only seen them to give them their boosters and be neutered. >Cats Protection do not home healthy cats indoors only. >Cats Protection do not home healthy cats indoors only. Heard you the first time, doesn't change the facts. I could scan in pics of my cats, the adoption contracts and forward the names of the women who fostered and approved me at the vetting stage - but you'd still not believe me, would you? You're the strangest troll I've ever encountered in all the years I've been using Usenet! > >>>Cats Protection do not home healthy cats to indoor only homes - so > >>>don't try that lie again. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > still not believe me, would you? You're the strangest troll I've ever > encountered in all the years I've been using Usenet! Well, the only thing I found on the Cats Protection pages on indoor cats was this about fresh air: "Fresh air and sunshine are necessary to us all so if your cat or kitten is confined to a flat without an enclosed balcony, fit a wire frame into one window to admit air and sunshine without the risk of his falling from a height." I wouldn't call that a negative attitude against the idea of having indoor cats. Source: http://www.cats.org.uk/html/index.php?sect_id=54#exercise But what does that matter to Brenchley and his lies? Hans On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 04:30:39 +0100, "Hans Schrøder" <han-schr@online.no> wrote: >> >Cats Protection do not home healthy cats indoors only. >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >But what does that matter to Brenchley and his lies? Indeed. I know what the facts are, I've been a member of Cats Protection for about 7 years and have had plenty of experience at 'grass roots level' as he puts it. Silly man. >On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 04:30:39 +0100, "Hans Schrøder" ><han-schr@online.no> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >Protection for about 7 years and have had plenty of experience at >'grass roots level' as he puts it. Silly man. You are one of two things. Either a liar or just a troll. Which is it? Cats Protection are full of dedicated people who work long hours to better the lives of cats that come into their care. CP do not, except as a desperate last resort, rehome healthy cats to indoor only situations. SignatureBob. How to become immortal: Read this signature tomorrow and follow its advice. >>Indeed. I know what the facts are, I've been a member of Cats >>Protection for about 7 years and have had plenty of experience at >>'grass roots level' as he puts it. Silly man. > >You are one of two things. Either a liar or just a troll. Which is it? Neither, you hideously obnoxious man, I have no reason to lie, nor the time nor inclination to troll anyone. You said CP never rehome healthy indoor cats, I have the evidence to the contrary which I'm happy to forward to you or anybody else. >Cats Protection are full of dedicated people who work long hours to >better the lives of cats that come into their care. CP do not, except >as a desperate last resort, rehome healthy cats to indoor only >situations. I know who they are, I've been a member for years, have helped rehome cats myself, AND currently have 3 of my own. If you're happy to go on peddling your own agenda on these newsgroups, fair enough, but don't insult me for pointing out the bias in your argument. The CP *do* rehome indoor cats - fact. >>>Indeed. I know what the facts are, I've been a member of Cats >>>Protection for about 7 years and have had plenty of experience at [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Neither, you hideously obnoxious man, I have no reason to lie, nor the >time nor inclination to troll anyone. Well the choice is there, you have to be one or the other. I'm tending towards troll. > You said CP never rehome healthy >indoor cats, I have the evidence to the contrary which I'm happy to >forward to you or anybody else. The FACTS (as often given) are simple. None of the UK's major shelters (Cats Protection, RSPCA/SSPCA, Battersea) which account for an estimated 80% of rehomings in this country, nor most of the smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. Now this has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats. >>Cats Protection are full of dedicated people who work long hours to >>better the lives of cats that come into their care. CP do not, except [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >insult me for pointing out the bias in your argument. The CP *do* >rehome indoor cats - fact. Of course little moron, CP do home old, disabled and sick cats indoors. What they do NOT do, except as a last resort (which they see as an admission of failure) is home a healthy cat to an abuser like yourself who finds it acceptable to keep a normal healthy cat indoors only. Now stick that in your pipe and smoke it. SignatureBob. Alas, your intelligence qualifies you more for the primordial soup than for the "master race." Recognize your limitations. Then shut up. >Of course little moron, CP do home old, disabled and sick cats >indoors. What they do NOT do, except as a last resort (which they see [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Now stick that in your pipe and smoke it. *yawn* I object to my cats being called failures. I'll happily forward you my area co-ordinator's contact details and you can go tell her that. >>Of course little moron, CP do home old, disabled and sick cats >>indoors. What they do NOT do, except as a last resort (which they see [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I object to my cats being called failures. I'll happily forward you my >area co-ordinator's contact details and you can go tell her that. Either your cats fit one of the very short list of categories where CP will rehome indoors, or your local CP failed in its duty to find them proper homes. SignatureBob. Light travels faster than sound. This is why you appear bright until we hear you talk. I see Bob is at it again. Now he is putting down cat rescue and posting things that are not true. I wonder what other things he'll pull out of his a.s? SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > > >>>Indeed. I know what the facts are, I've been a member of Cats [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > Now stick that in your pipe and smoke it. >I see Bob is at it again. Now he is putting down cat rescue and posting >things that are not true. I wonder what other things he'll pull out of his >a.s? Why is it that top-posting moronic trolls have this fixation with donkeys? SignatureBob. I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public. What's the matter Bob? Disappointed that I am right and you are wrong. Every time you post on here you put your foot in your mouth. So far you spoken out against cat rescue, keeping cats indoors where they are safe, and of course you have advised people it is ok to declaw their cats. No matter what proof we have posted to you, you still don't hesitate to post like you are an expert and that your position is right. Why can't you just admit that you know absolutely nothing about cats? SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > > >I see Bob is at it again. Now he is putting down cat rescue and posting [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Why is it that top-posting moronic trolls have this fixation with > donkeys? >What's the matter Bob? Disappointed that I am right and you are wrong. Every >time you post on here you put your foot in your mouth. So far you spoken out [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> Why is it that top-posting moronic trolls have this fixation with >> donkeys? Funny. Nothing down here to reply to? SignatureBob. The difference between ordinary stupid and extraordinary stupid can be summed up in one word -- YOU. On Tue, 10 Feb 2004 04:30:39 +0100, "Hans Schrøder" <han-schr@online.no> wrote: >> Heard you the first time, doesn't change the facts. I could scan in >> pics of my cats, the adoption contracts and forward the names of the [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >Hans The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, including Cats Protection which is by far the largest, nor most of the smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats. >The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, including Cats >Protection which is by far the largest, nor most of the smaller ones >that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, will normally >rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This has been >confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the grass roots >level - actually finding homes for cats. This is an exact copy of two e-mail replies that I got from the Cats Protection League which you keep referring to in this thread. I got tired of one side saying the policy was one thing and the other side saying it was the exact opposite so I went to the source. One may debate what is "best", but what the policy of CPL is should not be in dispute. Many posts in this thread concerned what that policy is. This should end that portion of the debate. There are two e-mails because there was some confusion over my goal in asking the question. Originally, they thought I was applying to adopt a cat. The answers are essentially the same. The discussions about the number of animals and adoption procedures were in reply to other questions that I was interested in personally. They have nothing to do with this discussion, but I didn't want to be accused of blanking out anything significant. I believe they prove, beyond any doubt, that indoor-only cat homes are acceptable to CPL. In some, if not many cases, they are discouraged, but they indeed are acceptable. This is total fact, no opinion, no conjecture, no theory, but 100% fact. My personal intrepretation is that a non-petigreed cat that is used to being indoors only would also be allowed in an indoor-only home. Only the personally identifying information has been blanked out. Subject: Query Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 09:39:58 -0000 From: "Lesley Bxxxxxxxxx" <lesley.bxxxxxxxxx@cats.org.uk> To: xxxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx Hi Xxxxxxxx Your enquiry has been passed to me. The definitive answers are as follows:- Cats Protection do rehome cats as indoor-only under certain circumstances and if we think it is in their best interest. We rehome approximately 60,000 cats nationwide in a year but do not have the figures to break it down into cities at this time; we do however carry out prehome checks as a matter of course, followed up by post home when possible. I would be interested to know which organisation you work for? Lesley Bxxxxxxx Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Subject: Adoption Policies Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 10:33:23 -0000 From: "Tracey Axxxxx" <tracy.axxxxx@cats.org.uk> To: xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxx.xxx Dear Xxxxxxxx, In reply to your recent email enquiries regarding our adoption policies, we carry out home checks primarily to establish beyond doubt that it is a genuine home and that we are not in danger of handing over a cat to an uncertain future. How to assess a 'good' home and a 'good' owner is difficult, we ask a number of questions to try and aid the decision. One of which is location for example living near busy roads, railway crossings, works entrances etc. In cases such as these we would not be able to home a kitten or a nervous or deaf cat, however it may be that we are able to home an indoor cat in such places. In some circumstances we do rehome indoor cats, the main reason for this is medical but there are occasions where we have Pedigree cats which would need to kept indoors. If a cat is used to going outside, then we would not home it to someone who wants an indoor cat, hence the reason behind doing home checks we try and match the cats requirements to that of the prospective new owners. I hope this helps answer your questions, if I can help any further then please do not hesitate to contact me. Kind regards Tracey Axxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx >This is an exact copy of two e-mail replies that I got from the Cats >Protection League which you keep referring to in this thread. I got [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >not be in dispute. Many posts in this thread concerned what that >policy is. This should end that portion of the debate. [snip] >In some circumstances we do rehome indoor cats, the main reason for >this is medical but there are occasions where we have Pedigree cats >which would need to kept indoors. If a cat is used to going outside, >then we would not home it to someone who wants an indoor cat, hence >the reason behind doing home checks we try and match the cats >requirements to that of the prospective new owners. Thank you, I think that paragraph in particular sums things up very well and I hope that put an end to the claims that Cats Protection would normally home a healthy cat to an indoor only situation. Sick, Yes. Disabled, Yes. Normal healthy cat, NO WAY except as an admission of failure. SignatureBob. In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, "Let there be Light." And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better. >>In some circumstances we do rehome indoor cats, the main reason for >>this is medical but there are occasions where we have Pedigree cats [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >well and I hope that put an end to the claims that Cats Protection >would normally home a healthy cat to an indoor only situation. So, from that statement, the CP as a matter of course rehome pedigree cats to indoor only houses. Do you think this is acceptible? And if so, why should pedigree cats be treated any differently? Bearing in mind a pedigree cat is less likely to be stolen than a moggy, there's no reason why it sould be treated as any differently. >Sick, Yes. Disabled, Yes. Normal healthy cat, NO WAY except as an >admission of failure. Please point me to the bit in that quote that says homing an indoor cat is an 'admission of failture'. It's very odd, you and I seem to have interpreted that statement completely differently. I took the 'we do rehome indoor cats' to mean just that. I never said they *only* rehome indoor cats, I never said they promote indoor cats, but they do rehome cats to indoor homes, particularly if it's safer in the circumstances. Curiously, I know of one situation recently - 2 littermates, 8 months old, very healthy and active, in the CP's fostercare. There was a choice between two homes - one with a garden, one in a flat. The CP went with the flat option. I really don't know why you're so obnoxious and defensive Mr Brenchley, I just don't get your motives. >>>In some circumstances we do rehome indoor cats, the main reason for >>>this is medical but there are occasions where we have Pedigree cats [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >So, from that statement, the CP as a matter of course rehome >pedigree cats to indoor only houses. Only those that are disabled by their breeding. >Do you think this is acceptible? >And if so, why should pedigree cats be treated any differently? Because many misbred cats suffer as a result of their breeders sickening idea of what makes a good cat. >Bearing in mind a pedigree cat is less likely to be stolen than a >moggy, there's no reason why it sould be treated as any differently. I'm sure you think you had a point to make there, but you failed. >>Sick, Yes. Disabled, Yes. Normal healthy cat, NO WAY except as an >>admission of failure. > >Please point me to the bit in that quote that says homing an indoor >cat is an 'admission of failture'. Please point me at the bit in the quote where is says it isn't. >It's very odd, you and I seem to have interpreted that statement >completely differently. I took the 'we do rehome indoor cats' to mean >just that. Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. > I never said they *only* rehome indoor cats, I never said >they promote indoor cats, but they do rehome cats to indoor homes, Only the sick, disabled, very old or those cats that have been waiting for homes for so long that indoor only is seen as the lesser of two evils - in other words they have failed to find them a proper home. >particularly if it's safer in the circumstances. Curiously, I know of >one situation recently - 2 littermates, 8 months old, very healthy and >active, in the CP's fostercare. There was a choice between two homes - >one with a garden, one in a flat. The CP went with the flat option. Pull the other one. >I really don't know why you're so obnoxious and defensive Mr >Brenchley, I just don't get your motives. To save cats from abusers like you. SignatureBob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. >>Please point me to the bit in that quote that says homing an indoor >>cat is an 'admission of failture'. > >Please point me at the bit in the quote where is says it isn't. *shakes head* Ok, if you can't conduct a simple conversation I'll adopt your posting style. You're a blathering old fool. >>It's very odd, you and I seem to have interpreted that statement >>completely differently. I took the 'we do rehome indoor cats' to mean >>just that. > >Your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired. As does yours. Blinkered. >> I never said they *only* rehome indoor cats, I never said >>they promote indoor cats, but they do rehome cats to indoor homes, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >Pull the other one. It's absolutely true, I assure you. Believe what you want, but I'm the one with the facts and experience, all you have is a cut/paste standard reply and a bizarrely worrying approach to cat 'care'. I've repeatedly offered you evidence - not my evidence, but the experience of my local branch - and you continue to rubbish my comments. I can't argue with that, >>I really don't know why you're so obnoxious and defensive Mr >>Brenchley, I just don't get your motives. >> >To save cats from abusers like you. lol! w.nker.You really haven't a clue... I sincerely hope you don't have cats. >>>Please point me to the bit in that quote that says homing an indoor >>>cat is an 'admission of failture'. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >You're a blathering old fool. Your opinion, but as you have shown yourself to be an animal abuser it is not an opinion I attach any value to. >>>It's very odd, you and I seem to have interpreted that statement >>>completely differently. I took the 'we do rehome indoor cats' to mean [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >As does yours. Blinkered. I prefer to work with the facts. The really are simple. >>> I never said they *only* rehome indoor cats, I never said >>>they promote indoor cats, but they do rehome cats to indoor homes, [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >of my local branch - and you continue to rubbish my comments. I can't >argue with that, Your experience as an animal abuser is worthless. I prefer to take the word of people who actually work with organizations like Cats Protection - at the hard end, raising money and finding homes for cats. Their consistent evidence is that neither CP or many of the small shelters that follow CP's guidelines, will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. >>>I really don't know why you're so obnoxious and defensive Mr >>>Brenchley, I just don't get your motives. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >lol! w.nker.You really haven't a clue... I sincerely hope you don't >have cats. I currently have three here, though one will be going to her new home this weekend. SignatureBob. I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public. >>It's absolutely true, I assure you. Believe what you want, but I'm the >>one with the facts and experience, all you have is a cut/paste [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >Protection - at the hard end, raising money and finding homes for >cats. I prefer to take their word too. And from my years of experience with them (as a member, volunteer and adopter), I've learned that they can and do rehome healthy indoor only cats. Argue all you like but that's the bottom line. *shrug* >>>It's absolutely true, I assure you. Believe what you want, but I'm the >>>one with the facts and experience, all you have is a cut/paste [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >*shrug* As already explained. You are either a liar or a troll. The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats. SignatureBob. Education would be your best defense, at the moment you are totally defenseless. >On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:52:28 +0000, Jacqueline ><jacquelinesummersDIESPAMDIE@gmx.co.uk> wrote:> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >As already explained. You are either a liar or a troll. And as I already explained, I'm most categorically neither. I can't comment on the RSPCA but I *can* comment on the CPL because I've had plenty years' involvement with them. And your petty name-calling, labelling people as 'abusers' is both misinformed and incredibly offensive. >The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the >smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, >will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This >has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the >grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats. The fact is you talk out yer arse. Most people on this groups seem to be American and you're upholding yourself as the spokesperson for the UK. Well, for the benefit of our American posters, Bob's opinions are only that - opinions. And very narrow-minded ones at that. >>On Fri, 27 Feb 2004 20:52:28 +0000, Jacqueline >><jacquelinesummersDIESPAMDIE@gmx.co.uk> wrote:> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >And as I already explained, I'm most categorically neither. You are one or the other, there is no third option. > I can't >comment on the RSPCA but I *can* comment on the CPL because I've had >plenty years' involvement with them. And your petty name-calling, >labelling people as 'abusers' is both misinformed and incredibly >offensive. You can't comment on anything as your lies have already been exposed. >>The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters, nor most of the >>smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >UK. Well, for the benefit of our American posters, Bob's opinions are >only that - opinions. And very narrow-minded ones at that. And you are just a barefaced lying troll - the sort of animal abusing scum that gets treated with contempt in the UK. Now do shut up you stupid troll. SignatureBob. I read your mind, and believe me, it was a short story... >>The fact is you talk out yer arse. Most people on this groups seem to >>be American and you're upholding yourself as the spokesperson for the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Now do shut up you stupid troll. Ha! You calling *me* a troll?!?! Talk about pot and kettle. I've never trolled any group in my life and I don't intend to start now. Idiot. >>>The fact is you talk out yer arse. Most people on this groups seem to >>>be American and you're upholding yourself as the spokesperson for the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >Ha! You calling *me* a troll?!?! Or a liar, it has to be or the other. > Talk about pot and kettle. I've never >trolled any group in my life and I don't intend to start now. Idiot. In that case you are owning up to being a liar. Fine, I can live with that. SignatureBob. Try not to let your mind wander...It is too small and fragile to be out by itself. Quoth Bob Brenchley.: > the sort of animal abusing > scum that gets treated with contempt in the UK. By whom, exactly? f keeping indoor-only cats was an act of abuse, the RSPCA would seize the cats and rehome them. Please provide precise documentary evidence that this occurs. I _will_ be verifying any case you put forward. SignatureGwenhwyfaer (British, cat-slave, all cats currently outside) some girls wander by themselves >Quoth Bob Brenchley.: >> the sort of animal abusing >> scum that gets treated with contempt in the UK. > >By whom, exactly? True animal lovers. >f keeping indoor-only cats was an act of abuse, the RSPCA would seize >the cats and rehome them. Please provide precise documentary evidence >that this occurs. I _will_ be verifying any case you put forward. Sadly the RSPCA are renowned for not taking the action they should in a wide variety of animal abuse issues. SignatureBob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. Quoth Bob Brenchley.: > >f keeping indoor-only cats was an act of abuse, the RSPCA would seize > >the cats and rehome them. Please provide precise documentary evidence > >that this occurs. I _will_ be verifying any case you put forward. > > Sadly the RSPCA are renowned for not taking the action they should in > a wide variety of animal abuse issues. Which is not so far from saying "I have no evidence to support my position, I am simply spouting my opinion as if it were gospel, and I also know better than the RSPCA what constitutes severe animal abuse". Thanks for clarifying. SignatureGwenhwyfaer (emails need [Private] in the subject) some girls wander by themselves Quoth Bob Brenchley.: > >I prefer to take their word too. And from my years of experience with > >them (as a member, volunteer and adopter), I've learned that they can [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > As already explained. You are either a liar or a troll. You're making that claim - prove it. Jacqueline has offered evidence for hers. You're required to offer some evidence that Jacqueline is lying (no, offering evidence for your original claim won't do the trick, and in any case you haven't accomplished that - all you've been doing is practising argument by repeated assertion, which never works). Incidentally, do you have a catflap? I sincerely hope so. Otherwise, there will be points at which your cats desire to go outside or come inside, and by your own argument, not to allow a cat free passage is an act of cruelty. Cats are, obviously, freely-roaming creatures, and if it's cruel to confine them, then it must be cruel to confine them even temporarily... ...mustn't it...? In fact, one could even argue that since cats are genetically identical to at least one species of wildcat, and can freely interbreed with them, then to attempt to keep them as pets in any way is an interference with their natural life, and thereby an act of abuse. But I doubt you are about to set yours free... are you, Bob? Would you look for them if they didn't come home? *sigh* I remember when you started posting here... you seemed so amusing, so promising... What happened, Bob? What happened? SignatureGwenhwyfaer (shaking head sadly) some girls wander by themselves >Quoth Bob Brenchley.: >> >I prefer to take their word too. And from my years of experience with [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >in any case you haven't accomplished that - all you've been doing is >practising argument by repeated assertion, which never works). Strange, I've seen no evidence which carries any weight from her. Given her stance, that she has had healthy cats placed in her care by Cats Protection, with CP knowing in advance that she will be keeping them indoors 24/7, we are left with only two alternatives that fit reality. Either she is lying and the cats are not normal healthy cats, or she is just trolling (another form of lying). When you have worked with Cats Protection, and known as many other people who worked with them as I have, you can see through her very easily. >Incidentally, do you have a catflap? Yes, both in the house and in the office. > I sincerely hope so. Otherwise, >there will be points at which your cats desire to go outside or come >inside, and by your own argument, not to allow a cat free passage is an >act of cruelty. Cats are, obviously, freely-roaming creatures, and if >it's cruel to confine them, then it must be cruel to confine them even >temporarily... THERE are times when it is necessary to confine them, mine are usually in overnight, but that is as much for the safety of other animals as their own. >...mustn't it...? > >In fact, one could even argue that since cats are genetically identical >to at least one species of wildcat, and can freely interbreed with >them, then to attempt to keep them as pets in any way is an >interference with their natural life, and thereby an act of abuse. I don't approve of more of the misbred "pedigree" cats and most normal cats elect to live with us. >But I doubt you are about to set yours free... are you, Bob? Would you >look for them if they didn't come home? Of course I would look for them, but the point is that they are free to go elsewhere if they wanted. >*sigh* I remember when you started posting here... you seemed so >amusing, so promising... What happened, Bob? What happened? Several years of dealing with lying animal abusing trolls. SignatureBob. In the beginning, there was nothing. And God said, "Let there be Light." And there was still nothing, but you could see a bit better. >>Quoth Bob Brenchley.: >>> >I prefer to take their word too. And from my years of experience with [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >reality. Either she is lying and the cats are not normal healthy cats, >or she is just trolling (another form of lying). As I've said *REPEATEDLY* I can give you evidence - what evidence do you need? I'll happily provide. >When you have worked with Cats Protection, and known as many other >people who worked with them as I have, you can see through her very >easily. I'd like to see your 'evidence' too. And not just the cut & paste stock answer you've been purporting for the past x years either. >>>Quoth Bob Brenchley.: >>>> >I prefer to take their word too. And from my years of experience with [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] >As I've said *REPEATEDLY* I can give you evidence - what evidence do >you need? I'll happily provide. There is no evidence needed, you have proved by your words that you are either a liar or a troll. >>When you have worked with Cats Protection, and known as many other >>people who worked with them as I have, you can see through her very >>easily. > >I'd like to see your 'evidence' too. And not just the cut & paste >stock answer you've been purporting for the past x years either. The answer fits. There have been a few trolls who have tried to rip it apart, but as it is based on facts they have never succeeded. SignatureBob. I tell you what, you should be on educational TV, you certainly make me feel so much smarter..? >>As I've said *REPEATEDLY* I can give you evidence - what evidence do >>you need? I'll happily provide. > >There is no evidence needed, Thank you, that's all we needed to know :o) >>I'd like to see your 'evidence' too. And not just the cut & paste >>stock answer you've been purporting for the past x years either. > >The answer fits. There have been a few trolls who have tried to rip it >apart, but as it is based on facts they have never succeeded. Your facts are out of date. >>>As I've said *REPEATEDLY* I can give you evidence - what evidence do >>>you need? I'll happily provide. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Your facts are out of date. No, they are bang up to date. Sorry troll, you lost. SignatureBob. Education would be your best defense, at the moment you are totally defenseless. >>Your facts are out of date. > >No, they are bang up to date. > >Sorry troll, you lost. Er, I don't think so matey. Quoth Bob Brenchley.: > There is no evidence needed, you have proved by your words that you > are either a liar or a troll. There we are. A clear offer of evidence refused. No, Bob, it doesn't work like that. When someone very clearly has a quite different opinion and experience than you, it verges on the sociopathic to just start calling them a liar. Saying "that's not my experience" is perfectly acceptable, because it allows for the difference - saying "you're a liar" without a full investigation only demonstrates that you regard any experience differing from your own as non-existent, which is quite divergent from what most people would regard as normal, social behaviour. Unless you know, intimately, every case handled by every office of every protection agency in the UK, and are utterly sure that local offices don't diverge in practice (for example, because local environments vary), you can't possibly know that you're correct - which is what is required before you start screaming "liar". SignatureGwenhwyfaer (emails need [Private] in the subject) some girls wander by themselves >Quoth Bob Brenchley.: >> There is no evidence needed, you have proved by your words that you >> are either a liar or a troll. > >There we are. A clear offer of evidence refused. There is no evidence needed, she has already proved herself a liar and a troll. >No, Bob, it doesn't work like that. When someone very clearly has a >quite different opinion and experience than you, it verges on the >sociopathic to just start calling them a liar. When someone claims something you know to be untrue it is quite normal to call them a liar. >Saying "that's not my >experience" is perfectly acceptable, because it allows for the >difference - saying "you're a liar" without a full investigation only >demonstrates that you regard any experience differing from your own as >non-existent, In this case it is. She was given ample opportunity to back out of the hole she was digging, but eventually you just have to fill it in. > which is quite divergent from what most people would >regard as normal, social behaviour. Unless you know, intimately, every [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >you're correct - which is what is required before you start screaming >"liar". I can state, for the record, the fact that none of the UK's major shelters (RSPCA, Cats Protection and Battersea) nor most of the smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats. SignatureBob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. >>Quoth Bob Brenchley.: >>> There is no evidence needed, you have proved by your words that you [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >There is no evidence needed, she has already proved herself a liar and >a troll. The only 'proof' is you insulting me, that's not proof, that's you being an arse. One can only assume you're not a very educated man. I'd like to have seen you at school/college/uni - 'no sir, I don't need to produce evidence, I'm right and everybody else is wrong, and you're all liars for contradicting me' !! >>No, Bob, it doesn't work like that. When someone very clearly has a >>quite different opinion and experience than you, it verges on the >>sociopathic to just start calling them a liar. > >When someone claims something you know to be untrue it is quite normal >to call them a liar. But what I say is not untrue so your insult is misappropriate. >>Saying "that's not my >>experience" is perfectly acceptable, because it allows for the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >In this case it is. She was given ample opportunity to back out of the >hole she was digging, but eventually you just have to fill it in. *sigh* I'm not digging anything. For the millionth time, I can offer you evidence of my experience - you choose to ignore it. That's not my fault. >>In this case it is. She was given ample opportunity to back out of the >>hole she was digging, but eventually you just have to fill it in. > >*sigh* I'm not digging anything. For the millionth time, I can offer >you evidence of my experience - you choose to ignore it. That's not my >fault. I ignore it because I trust my own experience, and those of EVERY single person I've come across who has ever worked with cats in the UK, over a lying troll like you on usenet. SignatureBob. Alas, your intelligence qualifies you more for the primordial soup than for the "master race." Recognize your limitations. Then shut up. >>>In this case it is. She was given ample opportunity to back out of the >>>hole she was digging, but eventually you just have to fill it in. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >single person I've come across who has ever worked with cats in the >UK, Then you're only seeing what you want to see. I've owned cats, I've worked with cats, I've had umpteen years of experience with a particular branch of a national UK charity - and my experience differs from yours. If you weren't so closed-minded you might actually learn something. Instead of insulting me you could actually try and have a conversation and learn something about my experiences. But no, you'd rather dismiss something you disagree with out of hand and that's that. You know nothing about me or my work, yet you take it upon yourself to make assumptions and cast aspersions on the validity of my argument. Sorry, but it's obvious who's the: "lying troll like you on usenet." >>>>In this case it is. She was given ample opportunity to back out of the >>>>hole she was digging, but eventually you just have to fill it in. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >particular branch of a national UK charity - and my experience differs >from yours. No, but your lying and trolling does. > If you weren't so closed-minded you might actually learn >something. Instead of insulting me you could actually try and have a >conversation and learn something about my experiences. I'm not interested in the experiences of a liar and troll. > But no, you'd >rather dismiss something you disagree with out of hand and that's >that. When you are so far wide of reality you get dismissed. >You know nothing about me or my work, yet you take it upon >yourself to make assumptions and cast aspersions on the validity of my >argument. Sorry, but it's obvious who's the: "lying troll like you on >usenet." Please feel free to come back when you are prepared to tell the truth. SignatureBob. I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public. >> If you weren't so closed-minded you might actually learn >>something. Instead of insulting me you could actually try and have a >>conversation and learn something about my experiences. > >I'm not interested in the experiences of a liar and troll. But I am neither so my opinion and experiences are valid. >> But no, you'd >>rather dismiss something you disagree with out of hand and that's >>that. > >When you are so far wide of reality you get dismissed. Well, so it seems in your case, nobody's taking you seriously. >>You know nothing about me or my work, yet you take it upon >>yourself to make assumptions and cast aspersions on the validity of my >>argument. Sorry, but it's obvious who's the: "lying troll like you on >>usenet." > >Please feel free to come back when you are prepared to tell the truth. What you mean is, "please feel free to come back when you agree with everything I say". You really are bizarre. >>> If you weren't so closed-minded you might actually learn >>>something. Instead of insulting me you could actually try and have a [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >But I am neither so my opinion and experiences are valid. You are one or the other, or possibly both. >>> But no, you'd >>>rather dismiss something you disagree with out of hand and that's [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >What you mean is, "please feel free to come back when you agree with >everything I say". You really are bizarre. Feel free to come back when you stop lying about the work of a much respected organization like Cats Protection. SignatureBob. I guess you just get lost in thought sometimes. It being such unfamiliar territory to you. Quoth Jacqueline: > The only 'proof' is you insulting me, that's not proof, that's you > being an arse. One can only assume you're not a very educated man. I'd > like to have seen you at school/college/uni - 'no sir, I don't need to > produce evidence, I'm right and everybody else is wrong, and you're > all liars for contradicting me' !! Some eminent professors have built careers on such arguments. :) SignatureGwenhwyfaer (emails need [Private] in the subject) some girls wander by themselves Quoth Bob Brenchley.: > >There we are. A clear offer of evidence refused. > > There is no evidence needed, she has already proved herself a liar and > a troll. No she hasn't. Giving you an impression is not the same thing as proving. > >No, Bob, it doesn't work like that. When someone very clearly has a > >quite different opinion and experience than you, it verges on the > >sociopathic to just start calling them a liar. > > When someone claims something you know to be untrue it is quite normal > to call them a liar. When they offer evidence to back up their position it's quite normal to retreat from such a dogmatic position and consider that evidence. > >Saying "that's not my > >experience" is perfectly acceptable, because it allows for the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > In this case it is. She was given ample opportunity to back out of the > hole she was digging, but eventually you just have to fill it in. No she wasn't - you refused her every offer to back up her statements. > I can state, for the record, the fact that none of the UK's major > shelters (RSPCA, Cats Protection and Battersea) nor most of the > smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, > will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This > has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the > grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats. Put yourself in my shoes. I see person A shouting the same thing over and over, whilst refusing to offer evidence for his assertions, or consider evidence anyone else may put forward for theirs. I see person B reasonably pointing out that her experience is different and making an offer of evidence to back up her assertions. I don't know either person, so I have no evidence as to either person's general trustworthiness. Confronted with that situation, who would you be more likely to take seriously? Why? SignatureGwenhwyfaer (emails need [Private] in the subject) some girls wander by themselves >Quoth Bob Brenchley.: >> >There we are. A clear offer of evidence refused. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >No she hasn't. Giving you an impression is not the same thing as >proving. In your opinion. >> >No, Bob, it doesn't work like that. When someone very clearly has a >> >quite different opinion and experience than you, it verges on the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >When they offer evidence to back up their position it's quite normal to >retreat from such a dogmatic position and consider that evidence. Sorry, but when you know the facts as well as I do then there is no retreat needed. >> >Saying "that's not my >> >experience" is perfectly acceptable, because it allows for the [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >No she wasn't - you refused her every offer to back up her statements. She was given ample opportunity to back out of the hole she was digging, she insisted on keeping up the digging rather than take any of the outs that were offered. >> I can state, for the record, the fact that none of the UK's major >> shelters (RSPCA, Cats Protection and Battersea) nor most of the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >either person, so I have no evidence as to either person's general >trustworthiness. I see person A stating the facts, facts that have been backed up by those that work at the hard end of cat care in the UK. I see person B starting to troll, being called out, and being unable to produce evidence because no such evidence can exist. She is welcome to spout her "experiences" but I know in advance there is little chance she will start telling the truth as she is now too deep in that hole of hers. >Confronted with that situation, who would you be more likely to take >seriously? Why? Frankly, I always go for the facts. SignatureBob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. >I see person B starting to troll, being called out, and being unable >to produce evidence because no such evidence can exist. She is welcome >to spout her "experiences" but I know in advance there is little >chance she will start telling the truth as she is now too deep in that >hole of hers. The evidence does exist, you just don't want to look, listen or understand. Nothing I have said has been a 'lie', I can back my statements. I don't have the time or inclination to go around making up things for the fun of it. I |
Enable EMail Alerts
Start New Thread
Reply to this Message