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Cat Forum / General Topics / November 2007Outdoor vs Indoor Cats Again!
I've followed this debate in many threads across several groups, and there is one point I have not seen raised. 30 years ago I was coming home from my night job at 4 AM and while walking in the street (NYC) a dozen blocks from my home, I came across a really friendly orange tabby. He kept coming up to me and I would walk away, and he would come back. He was most friendly, obviously people oriented, and in my opinion he was a housecat who for some reason had been displaced from his house. I took him home and named him ECO, or ECHO, Eco, short for economics, because I wasn't sure I could afford to keep him; and, ECHO, because he kept coming back. Once at my home, Eco seemed restless and he often tried to go out the window to the fireescape. Once, he jumped across an open window to the windowsill across an open airshaft. He was stuck there on the ledge and I had to go to the building next door to bring him in. A couple of weeks later, on Thanksgiving, 1974, my younger brother brought me a kitten, which I named Turkey (after all it was Thanksgiving). Turkey and Eco lived together for one week before Eco managed to squeeze through a small opening in the fire escape window, and he disappeared. Why am I telling you this? Well, I think Echo was someone's cat from a half mile away, and I, out of good nature, took him to my home. What was Eco's original owner thinking when he never returned as he usually did? Why did I take him if that is what I thought? Well, it is because I didn't know. Maybe Eco was lost, and needed someone to care for him, he certainly latched on to me. What happened to him? He certainly wasn't familiar with the new neighborhood he found himself in. One of the main reasons I would never let my cat (MY PET, MY COMPANION) out, is because one day he may not return And, it might not be because he or she was a victim of a tragedy; perhaps someone like me took him for his own. I'd never know. I would be left with photos on handbills taped to lamppoles with a LOST CAT headline. I think pet owners should understand the difference between wild, feral animals, and domesticated ones. Our pets need our protection more than they need to be allowed to roam around at will. Just my two cents. If you want to see my most recent additions, follow this link to Mickey & Daisy. http://hometown.aol.com/borninthebronx/index.html >I think pet owners should understand the difference between wild, feral >animals, and domesticated ones. Our pets need our protection more than they >need to be allowed to roam around at will. > >Just my two cents. If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being cruel, selfish, or both.  SignatureBob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to > allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each > day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being > cruel, selfish, or both. Liar! LT > > If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable >to [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >LT Oh do shut up you stupid, lying, animal abusing troll. SignatureBob. I read your mind, and believe me, it was a short story... >If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to >allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each >day (and only you can judge your area) then don't have a cat. To have >a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being >cruel, selfish, or both. I'll agree to the selfish part. Yes, I am selfish. I have decided to take an animal (in this case two homeless animals from an animal rescue service) and keep them locked in my home; for my own selfish amusement. They give me a great deal of enjoyment; they are funny, and warm, and friendly, and in short . . . just great to have around. I am keeping them captive, quite possibly against their will. In return for their captivity;I feed them better than they would ever eat in the wild, I take them to an animal doctor on a regular basis and keep them in better health than they would have in the wild; I keep them warmer or cooler than they would be in the wild, depending on the season; I keep them away from predators bigger than they are; I buy products which I know they would like or would amuse themselves with; and, they will likely live twice as long as they would in the wild. NO, I am certainly not cruel! Its funny, but I did not invent the idea of keeping pets. For all of my years people have kept pets; in fact, they have been doing it for a very long time. So, I have taken pets which are already on this earth and made the trade I've outlined above. It would be cruel of me to let them go out into the city at will, and invariably shorten their lives. It would also be doubley, no tripley cruel of me to allow them to go into the night and either get knocked up or do the same to another animal, so the population of unwanted animals could explode. So, now that you've taken the liberty to call me selfish and cruel, let me ask you a question. You sound like an outdoorsman! Do you hunt? > >If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to > >allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > would amuse themselves with; and, they will likely live twice as long as they > would in the wild. What does this have to do with cats being allowed to spend some time outside? > NO, I am certainly not cruel! Its funny, but I did not invent the idea of > keeping pets. For all of my years people have kept pets; in fact, they have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > night and either get knocked up or do the same to another animal, so the > population of unwanted animals could explode. Sounds to me like you're just looking for an arguement. > So, now that you've taken the liberty to call me selfish and cruel, let me ask > you a question. You sound like an outdoorsman! Do you hunt? Bob doesn't need to hunt for total ignorants like yourself. Do you happen to be into fishing? Don't feed the trolls..they have no brains..and logic is just an undefined word in the dictionary. Hello Bob. Amusing yourself again, I see, by savaging people who love their pets. You must have quite a collection of First Stones. LT >Hello Bob. Amusing yourself again, I see, by savaging >people who love their pets. > >You must have quite a collection of First Stones. > >LT Do shut up you stupid animal abusing troll. SignatureBob. I read your mind, and believe me, it was a short story... Ask Bob how many First Stones he owns. LT >>If you live in an area where, for whatever reason, you feel unable to >>allow a healthy cat its freedom to roam for at least some time each [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >I'll agree to the selfish part. Yes, I am selfish. Then please stop being selfish - it is not fair on the cats. > I have decided to take an >animal (in this case two homeless animals from an animal rescue service) and >keep them locked in my home; for my own selfish amusement. They give me a >great deal of enjoyment; they are funny, and warm, and friendly, and in short . >. . just great to have around. I am keeping them captive, quite possibly >against their will. Sick. >In return for their captivity;I feed them better than they would ever eat in >the wild, I take them to an animal doctor on a regular basis and keep them in [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >would amuse themselves with; and, they will likely live twice as long as they >would in the wild. As they would in the wild - maybe. Average age in the wild would be about 7. However, the average age of an indoor-outdoor cat is no different than that of an indoor only cat -- it just seems like longer for the poor imprisoned cat that is cut off from so much that it needs in the outside world. >NO, I am certainly not cruel! Yes you are. > Its funny, but I did not invent the idea of >keeping pets. For all of my years people have kept pets; in fact, they have >been doing it for a very long time. They have - and all over the world. And it is only really in the USA that this abuse of animals is so widespread. > So, I have taken pets which are already on >this earth and made the trade I've outlined above. It would be cruel of me to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >So, now that you've taken the liberty to call me selfish and cruel, let me ask >you a question. You sound like an outdoorsman! Do you hunt? I'm neither an outdoorsman nor a hunter - in fact I campaign against hunting in nearly all its forms. What I am is an animal lover, one that knows enough about cats to call you a very sick and cruel individual - a very selfish person who gives no though to the basic needs of his cats. I'm glad to say that in the UK you would not have been allowed to adopt cats from a shelter. We have home inspections that are designed to root out abusers like you. SignatureBob. I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public. > I'm glad to say that in the UK you would not have been allowed to > adopt cats from a shelter. We have home inspections that are designed > to root out abusers like you. Liar. >> I'm glad to say that in the UK you would not have been allowed to >> adopt cats from a shelter. We have home inspections that are designed >> to root out abusers like you. > >Liar. You are - and a very sick trolling liar at that. The FACT is that none of the UK's major shelters (Cats Protection, RSPCA, Battersea) nor most of the smaller ones that for various reasons affiliate with the big boys, will normally rehome a healthy cat to an indoor only environment. This has been confirmed on numerous occasions by people who work at the grass roots level - actually finding homes for cats. I know trolls have trouble with facts, so I can't expect you to understand them, but those are the facts and even a sick promotor of animal abuse like you will just have to learn to live with them. SignatureBob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. When I was 17 I lived in a suburban area..my then 5 year old cat was an indoor outdoor cat. He was hit by a car and needed surgery. He recovered, thankfully. I never allowed him out again...and he never got hit by a car again! >When I was 17 I lived in a suburban area..my then 5 year old cat was an indoor >outdoor cat. He was hit by a car and needed surgery. He recovered, >thankfully. I never allowed him out again...and he never got hit by a car >again! Do you get pleasure from systematically ill-treating your cat? SignatureBob. I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public. > >When I was 17 I lived in a suburban area..my then 5 year old cat was an indoor > >outdoor cat. He was hit by a car and needed surgery. He recovered, > >thankfully. I never allowed him out again...and he never got hit by a car > >again! > > Do you get pleasure from systematically ill-treating your cat? That's OK. Because pets exist to give their owners pleasure, enjoyment, self-gratification. It's not important if the cat is suffering or is being deprived, as long as it's owner feels he/she is doing the right thing for the cat. The welfare of the human is infinitely more important than the welfare of the animal. That's how it works whether you like it or not. >That's OK. Because pets exist to give their owners pleasure, >enjoyment, self-gratification. It's not important if the cat is >suffering or is being deprived, as long as it's owner feels he/she is >doing the right thing for the cat. The welfare of the human is >infinitely more important than the welfare of the animal. That's how >it works whether you like it or not. Yes, I agree, pets exist to give their owners pleasure. Surely, that is why I have two cats. The latter part of your analysis is flawed. It does matter, to any decent caring humane pet owner what his pet is feeling. The welfare of the animal is of paramount importance; I took a huge responsibility when I decided to imprison two cats in my home. I think I have met that responsibility with flying colors. They will live a much richer and healthier life with me as a responsible owner than if I were some sort of a demented naturalist who simply opened the door for his pet to come and go as he pleased. > >That's OK. Because pets exist to give their owners pleasure, > >enjoyment, self-gratification. It's not important if the cat is [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > responsible owner than if I were some sort of a demented naturalist who simply > opened the door for his pet to come and go as he pleased. Obviously, you didn't consult your pets whether they want to remain purely indoor pets. You made the decision unilaterally. So, I argue that you don't really care that they might suffer (mentally) as long as you satisfy what you think is right, i.e., that they remain indoors. You can be responsible and still let them outdoors by putting them on a leash, in a backyard, if you have one, under supervision, etc. >Obviously, you didn't consult your pets whether they want to remain >purely indoor pets. You made the decision unilaterally. So, I argue [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >them on a leash, in a backyard, if you have one, under supervision, >etc. No, I didn't consult with them. I took a look at them in a cage in a section set up in a local PetCo for adopting cats. I made an intelligent guess that they would probably prefer to have the run of my small aprtment then staying in the cage. As far as the outdoor thing, I live in the city. I have a problem with people who let their cats roam around in the alleys and gardens in the middle of the blocks and between the rears of apartments. If I didn't make it clear, I am sorry. Of course, anyone who has a backyard and wishes to tether a cat to a long leash in the backyard, would not be considered an irresponsible owner in my opinion. I object to allowing a pet to roam free where the owner loses contact and control over the pet. >>Obviously, you didn't consult your pets whether they want to remain >>purely indoor pets. You made the decision unilaterally. So, I argue [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >they would probably prefer to have the run of my small aprtment then staying in >the cage. You swapped one cage for another. If you had not been so selfish they would have stood the chance of getting a proper home. >As far as the outdoor thing, I live in the city. I have a problem with people >who let their cats roam around in the alleys and gardens in the middle of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >and wishes to tether a cat to a long leash in the backyard, would not be >considered an irresponsible owner in my opinion. The would be arrested in the UK, for animal cruelty. Even dogs cannot be chained up like that any more. > I object to allowing a pet to >roam free where the owner loses contact and control over the pet. Then don't have cats. SignatureBob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. >You swapped one cage for >another. If you had not been so selfish they >would have stood the chance of >getting a proper home. Pssst ... don't show the world you're a complete moron! An apartment vs. a cage in Petco? Did you have a lobotomy? >>You swapped one cage for >another. If you had not been so selfish they >>would have stood the chance of >getting a proper home. > >Pssst ... don't show the world you're a complete moron! An apartment vs. a >cage in Petco? Did you have a lobotomy? A gage is a cage - end of story. SignatureBob. Light travels faster than sound. This is why you appear bright until we hear you talk. Bob@format.publications.ukf.net (a known troll) awkwardly says >A gage is a cage - end of story. > >You swapped one cage for >another. If you had not been so selfish they > >would have stood the chance of >getting a proper home. > > Pssst ... don't show the world you're a complete moron! An apartment vs. a > cage in Petco? Did you have a lobotomy? As a matter of fact, he did. Go easy on him, he finds it hard to distinguish between fantasy and reality. >Did you have a lobotomy? >> Go easy on him, he finds it hard >>to distinguish between fantasy >>and reality. Then he should be locked up and medicated for his own protection! <giggle >> >You swapped one cage for >another. If you had not been so selfish they >> >would have stood the chance of >getting a proper home. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >As a matter of fact, he did. Go easy on him, he finds it hard to >distinguish between fantasy and reality. Stupid Troll. SignatureBob. Everyone is entitled to be stupid but you're abusing the privilege. Yes, Bob, you are a stupid troll! <giggle>..and a twit, to boot! >Yes, Bob, you are a stupid troll! <giggle>..and a twit, to boot! Stupid Troll. SignatureBob. She's on holiday - well at least from the neck up. >You swapped one cage for another. If you had not been so selfish they >would have stood the chance of getting a proper home That is pretty dim witted remark. Do you know how many there are like that? Oh, perhaps you think they should stay in the 2 X 4 cage forever, or perhaps they should be euthanized. The problem with you, is that you offer no alternatives. Even a fool like you can't believe that all pet owners should open up their doors and let their pets out to fend for themselves? If having a pet is putting one in a cage, what is the alternative? I assume, that you aren't a pet owner. I certainly hope not; you're too cold, belligerent, and immature to deserve the pleasurable companionship of a pet. > That is pretty dim witted remark. Do you know how many there are like that? > Oh, perhaps you think they should stay in the 2 X 4 cage forever, or perhaps [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > I assume, that you aren't a pet owner. I certainly hope not; you're too cold, > belligerent, and immature to deserve the pleasurable companionship of a pet. I never thought I was going to say this, but now I just have to: Don't feed the trolls! Leave Brenchley alone outside in the snow where he belongs... Hans >>You swapped one cage for another. If you had not been so selfish they >>would have stood the chance of getting a proper home > >That is pretty dim witted remark. Do you know how many there are like that? >Oh, perhaps you think they should stay in the 2 X 4 cage forever, or perhaps >they should be euthanized. Why would I think that? >The problem with you, is that you offer no alternatives. Even a fool like you >can't believe that all pet owners should open up their doors and let their pets >out to fend for themselves? Your stupidity is showing. > If having a pet is putting one in a cage, what is >the alternative? The correct homing of a cat - where it is free to spend at least some time each day outdoors with the freedom to roam as its will dictates. >I assume, that you aren't a pet owner. You assume wrong. > I certainly hope not; you're too cold, >belligerent, and immature to deserve the pleasurable companionship of a pet. I've kept cats for over 40 years. I've fostered cats for the last 12 years - including rescued cats who have been abused by being kept in 24/7, in some cases for years. Working with those cats, sometimes for months, to help them build a proper life is very rewarding. In addition I help raise money for a number of shelters - including acting as advisor to a number of shelters in North America. SignatureBob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. Bob renchley the twit aka Bob@format.publications.ukf.net says >In addition I help raise money for a >number of shelters - including >acting as advisor to a number of >shelters in North America. Where in North America? In the US, the prevailing policy, position and view is to keep cat indoors...it's safer. >Bob renchley the twit aka >Bob@format.publications.ukf.net [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >Where in North America? Currently 6 in the US and 1 in Canada. >In the US, the prevailing policy, position and view is >to keep cat indoors...it's safer. No it isn't and no it isn't. SignatureBob. You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your friends so they may learn as well. Still a jackass I see - you're un-flipping-real you know that? Get over it. Here in the US when you adopt a cat out of a shelter they give you at least three provisions: you get it fixed to prevent over population, you get it's shots ASAP if they're needed -AND- you keep the indoors - some even add in the "please do no declaw" I'm so glad I have a life - I haven't been on this newsgroup regularly for ages and here you are still posting your drivel - my god man - get outside like you like your cats to do - you need another hobby. LeeAnne proud mom of Max, 100% indoor, or supervised outdoor kitty > >In the US, the prevailing policy, position and view is > >to keep cat indoors...it's safer. > > No it isn't and no it isn't. >> >In the US, the prevailing policy, position and view is >> >to keep cat indoors...it's safer. >> >> No it isn't and no it isn't. Moronic posting style corrected. You have not been charged for this service but I reserve the right to charge in the future if you make the same mistake again. >Still a jackass I see - you're un-flipping-real you know that? Get over it. >Here in the US when you adopt a cat out of a shelter they give you at least >three provisions: you get it fixed How can you 2fix" something that is not broken? >to prevent over population, you get it's >shots ASAP if they're needed -AND- you keep the indoors That is a lie. Less than 35% of US shelters have any form of indoor only clause, and many of them only insist on indoor only in certain areas. In the rest of the world those areas would not be deemed suitable for a cat as most of the world treats its cats better. > - some even add in >the "please do no declaw" Sadly people like you who ill-treat cats by locking them up 24/7 are the cause of the declawing. >I'm so glad I have a life - I haven't been on this newsgroup regularly for >ages and here you are still posting your drivel Facts - just plain everyday facts. >- my god man - get outside >like you like your cats to do - you need another hobby. > >LeeAnne >proud mom of Max, 100% indoor, or supervised outdoor kitty You are a very sick animal abuser - I'm glad to say that in civilized countries you would not be allowed to have cats. SignatureBob. The difference between ordinary stupid and extraordinary stupid can be summed up in one word -- YOU. To prove he's not a troll, Bob Brenchley. Bob@format.publications.ukf.net does his research and posts >No it isn't and no it isn't. Once again, Bob B. shows the world what happens when someone stops taking needed medication! >To prove he's not a troll, >Bob Brenchley. Bob@format.publications.ukf.net [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Once again, Bob B. shows the world what happens when someone stops taking >needed medication! Stupid Troll. SignatureBob. I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public. > >>You swapped one cage for another. If you had not been so selfish they > >>would have stood the chance of getting a proper home [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > In addition I help raise money for a number of shelters - including > acting as advisor to a number of shelters in North America. Name a single one. You can't, can you? >> >>You swapped one cage for another. If you had not been so selfish they >> >>would have stood the chance of getting a proper home [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >Name a single one. You can't, can you? Oh do shut up you stupid troll. SignatureBob. I read your mind, and believe me, it was a short story... > >> >>You swapped one cage for another. If you had not been so selfish they > >> >>would have stood the chance of getting a proper home [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > > Oh do shut up you stupid troll. Thanks, Bob. That's what I thought. You CAN'T name a single one, can you? >> Oh do shut up you stupid troll. > >Thanks, Bob. That's what I thought. You CAN'T name a single one, can you? Not to a stupid animal abusing troll like you ParrotSlob. SignatureBob. I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public. Bob Brenchley. Bob@format.publications.ukf.net was a twit is a twit will always be a twit was a jerk is a jerk will alway be a jerk and so on... > Bob Brenchley. Bob@format.publications.ukf.net > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >will alway be a jerk >and so on... Gee, that's just soooooooooo helpful to all of us............. Who've had him kill-filed for years...... eq > Bob Brenchley. Bob@format.publications.ukf.net > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >will alway be a jerk >and so on... Stupid troll! SignatureBob. I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public. > > Bob Brenchley. Bob@format.publications.ukf.net > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Stupid troll! Good point. He's a "Stupid troll!", too. >> > Bob Brenchley. Bob@format.publications.ukf.net >> > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Good point. He's a "Stupid troll!", too. Abuse Report Filed. SignatureBob. Your stupidity sets new standards - even for Usenet. > >> Oh do shut up you stupid troll. > > > >Thanks, Bob. That's what I thought. You CAN'T name a single one, can you? > > Not to a stupid animal abusing troll like you ParrotSlob. In other words, no. Thanks again. >> >> Oh do shut up you stupid troll. >> > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > >In other words, no. Thanks again. Another stupid troll that does not know how to use a newsreader. SignatureBob. I see you've set aside this special time to humiliate yourself in public. >>That's OK. Because pets exist to give their owners pleasure, >>enjoyment, self-gratification. It's not important if the cat is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >to imprison two cats in my home. I think I have met that responsibility with >flying colors. You failed - dismally - because you refused to look at the basic needs of the cats. By ignoring their basic needs you have become an abuser. > They will live a much richer and healthier life with me as a >responsible owner than if I were some sort of a demented naturalist who simply >opened the door for his pet to come and go as he pleased. You are either very deluded or very sick. I vote for sick. SignatureBob. You couldn't get a clue during the clue mating season in a field full of horny clues if you smeared your body with clue musk and did the clue mating dance. >> >When I was 17 I lived in a suburban area..my then 5 year old cat was an indoor >> >outdoor cat. He was hit by a car and needed surgery. He recovered, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >That's OK. Because pets exist to give their owners pleasure, >enjoyment, self-gratification. Not if it involves systematic cruelty. >It's not important if the cat is >suffering or is being deprived, as long as it's owner feels he/she is >doing the right thing for the cat. The welfare of the human is >infinitely more important than the welfare of the animal. That's how >it works whether you like it or not. I'm glad to say that is NOT how it works. SignatureBob. I think, therefore, I am... not related to you. > >I think pet owners should understand the difference between wild, feral > >animals, and domesticated ones. Our pets need our protection more than they [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > a healthy cat, knowing you will keep it in 24/7 marks you are being > cruel, selfish, or both. Christ, I thought you were dead. Actually I was hoping you were. > Imbecile. > > You have not been charged for this lesson. Please pass it to all your > friends so they may learn as well. II'm new to this site. I wanted to make a case for indoor/outdoor cats. My precious cat passed away in our arms last week. She was almost 19 human years old (90 cat). She was a 60% outdoor cat all of her life. She never took any medication, never was hurt (we live in a subdivision) by a car, other animal or other human, and was the joy of our lives. When she died, she was immaculately clean, had been eating well and just died of old age. I realize this was probably an extremely lucky case but I feel that she was never injured because she was so incredibly bright. She loved nothing more in her life than to soak up the sun on beautiful days and to be close to us on the cold, cloudy ones. She never in her life scratched one piece of furniture. I always wondered if she lacked that instinct? All in all, she was the most perfect pet and companion. Does anyone know what the odds are of a cat living as long as mine under the same circumstances? I always knew by baby was very special. >I've followed this debate in many threads across several groups, and there is >one point I have not seen raised. [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > >http://hometown.aol.com/borninthebronx/index.html |
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