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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / November 2003Feeding questions
We have a 16 year old spayed female tabby, Tigger, who has a tendency to be overweight. We got her down to 9 lbs. but this is still a little heavy for her frame. It is imperative to keep her weight down as she has arthritis. We also have a 1-2 yr. old long hair spayed female, Isabel. We recently adopted her from a local shelter and she appeared to be grossly overweight (her picture was in the dictionary next to bowling ball). We are trying to get her down to a healthy weight. Our third cat, Boots, is 12 weeks old. He is the last of a litter of kittens we ended up bottle feeding when Mom took off and left them on our property. The last of his siblings were adopted last Saturday. Now to the feeding question. Since Boot's siblings have left he has decided he doesn't want to eat the kitten food. He wants to eat the same food as the adult cats. How long should he be on kitten food? I hesitate to ask as I gather there is a debate over dry and wet food but should he be on more "wet" food because he is a male? He doesn't seem to want to eat much at one sitting but would rather munch during the day. This is a challenge as Isabel is a total chow hound and must be watched like a hawk or she'll eat the kitten food if left out. Any suggestions how to handle the needs of all these guys so that they all get what they need? W >From: "Wendy" wendy@nospam.com >Since Boot's siblings have left he has decided >he doesn't want to eat the kitten food. He wants to eat the same food as the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >W You could feed the kitten separately and usually kitten food is fed until the cat is 1 year old. Or, you could feed an "all life stages" food for all the cats. Canned is definitely better for them than dry food which tends to be more cereal than meat. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > Or, you could feed an "all life stages" food for all the >cats. That is definitely NOT good advice. All life stage foods are formulated for kittens and may contain nutrient levels (of fat, phosphorus, calcium, magnesium, sodium, etc.) not appropriate for senior and/or adult cats. >Canned is definitely better for them than dry food which tends to be >more cereal than meat. Canned is a good idea but not because of the "cereal vs meat" argument. (what kind of cereal is that? Frosted Flakes?? lol) Canned foods are mostly water and getting enough water into the cats should be a goal of proper nutrition. Boots ended up in the bathroom this morning to allow the other two to eat. He is a bold little bugger and doesn't hesitate to shove his way in to the food bowls while the big girls are trying to eat. I think Tiggy is totally traumatized as she took to pooping in various location around the house this morning - on purpose. I've been keeping the kitten food in the "box" the kittens were in when they were smaller. The top is open so Boots can jump in himself to eat. As long as Isabel doesn't see anyone put food in there she's leaving it alone and poor Tiggy couldn't jump in there to save her soul with her arthritis. I'm beginning to think that having cats of such different ages and requirements may have been a big mistake. W >From: "Wendy" wendy@nospam.com You could feed the kitten separately and usually kitten food is fed until the cat is 1 year old. Or, you could feed an "all life stages" food for all the cats. Canned is definitely better for them than dry food which tends to be more cereal than meat. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >From: "Wendy" wendy@nospam.com >Boots ended up in the bathroom this morning to allow the other two to eat. >He is a bold little bugger and doesn't hesitate to shove his way in to the >food bowls while the big girls are trying to eat. But it's good he has a healthy appetite >I think Tiggy is totally >traumatized as she took to pooping in various location around the house this >morning - on purpose. Is this the first time this has happened? How many litter boxes do you have? >I'm beginning to think that having cats of such different ages and >requirements may have been a big mistake. Yeah but before you know it, the kitten will be full grown :) Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm Tiggy has gone outside the box a few times in the last few years mostly on the days when she's really walking stiffly. However, those occasions it's been in just one spot. This morning she left some in two different spots in the bedroom, one in the living room and I caught her in the act of leaving another present in the living room. I suspect Tiggy is displeased. We have three litter boxes going and have been cleaning them out daily. W >From: "Wendy" wendy@nospam.com >I think Tiggy is totally >traumatized as she took to pooping in various location around the house this >morning - on purpose. Is this the first time this has happened? How many litter boxes do you have? Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > We have a 16 year old spayed female tabby, Tigger, who has a tendency to be > overweight. We got her down to 9 lbs. but this is still a little heavy for > her frame. It is imperative to keep her weight down as she has arthritis. It's so hard to get a cat to lose weight, isn't it? I feel for you, believe me! :) > We also have a 1-2 yr. old long hair spayed female, Isabel. We recently > adopted her from a local shelter and she appeared to be grossly overweight [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > W Wendy, since you have two cats that are needing to lose weight, I would feed them seperately on the same food. I would try to choose a light food with a higher amount of protein and less carbs (canned food will help with this too, there are light formulas available). Give them controlled portions 2x a day, say morning and evening. They will get used to the feeding times. Keep the food down for say, half an hour, then take it away. Feed them where the kitten cannot get to the food. For the kitten, you really should be feeding a kitten food til 1 year. Kitten foods contain more fat and protein than other foods, which they need for growth. An all-life-stage food many times won't have as high percentage of these nutrients as a actual kitten food, so I would stick with that. As for brand, that's something your cats will have to decide :), I would just stay away from supermarket brands and choose a higher-quality food. You can keep the adults out of the kitten food by taking a milk crate or heavy box or something similar, cut an opening big enough for the kitten but too small for your more "robust" two, and keep the food in there. That way kitten can have free access to her food. HTH, Karen M. >From: "Karen M." mskitty@easystreetNOSPAM.com >For the kitten, you really should be feeding a kitten food til 1 year. >Kitten foods contain more fat and protein than other foods, which they >need for growth. An all-life-stage food many times won't have as high >percentage of these nutrients as a actual kitten food, so I would stick >with that. Karen, you're wrong. Haven't you been reading the all life stage food posts? Any food whose AAFCO label states that it is for "all life stages" IS a kitten food. "All life stage" foods have to contain nutrient levels appropriate for kittens, not adult or senior animals. >>From: "Karen M." mskitty@easystreetNOSPAM.com > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > food. "All life stage" foods have to contain nutrient levels appropriate for > kittens, not adult or senior animals. G, please keep your insane need to argue away from this posting. This person wants help. I think this person is smart enough to take what is written and go look into appropriate foods for her cats. >> Karen, you're wrong. Haven't you been reading the all life stage food >posts? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >person wants help. I think this person is smart enough to take what is >written and go look into appropriate foods for her cats. But if you are providing WRONG information, I would hope that the OP would want to know that. Keep your wrong information to yourself and no one will have to correct you. >>>Karen, you're wrong. Haven't you been reading the all life stage food >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > to know that. Keep your wrong information to yourself and no one will have to > correct you. You're just trying to provoke another war, which for some reason you seem to love. You made your point, I made mine. Drop it and let the OP get on with it. Of course, I doubt the OP is who you're concerned with here. >> But if you are providing WRONG information, I would hope that the OP would >want [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >get on with it. Of course, I doubt the OP is who you're concerned with >here. Again, I'm not "starting another war". I don't have that kind of power. I will correct misleading or erroneous information in the hopes of helping the original poster. I see that you think I have an ulterior motive in mind which is not to help the OP. Why would you think that? >From: "Karen M." mskitty@easystreetNOSPAM.com >>>From: "Karen M." mskitty@easystreetNOSPAM.com >> [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >person wants help. I think this person is smart enough to take what is >written and go look into appropriate foods for her cats. Yes, please don't listen to Gaubster. He has an incessant need to argue and yet has absolutely nothing to back up what he says. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >Yes, please don't listen to Gaubster. He has an incessant need to argue and >yet has absolutely nothing to back up what he says. Yeah, don't listen to the truth. Do whatever you want, I can't help you if you aren't willing to learn or listen to facts. I see here that Lauren has provided ZERO helpful information or advice in this thread. > >From: "Karen M." mskitty@easystreetNOSPAM.com > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > food. "All life stage" foods have to contain nutrient levels appropriate for > kittens, not adult or senior animals. Dear Chris. You are wrong. Very, very wrong. And it's getting on my nerves. No emoticons here. In fact, post proof or retract your statement that ""All life stage" foods have to contain nutrient levels appropriate for kittens, not adult or senior animals." Regards, Alison in OH >Dear Chris. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >foods have to contain nutrient levels appropriate for kittens, not adult >or senior animals." What's getting on my nerves is that this is SO easy to understand. ANY food that is labelled "all life stages" (according to the AAFCO statement) has passed the minimum requirements to sustain the most demanding stage of life--the growth (kitten) stage. An "all life stage" food may contain levels of nutrients that are more appropriate for a kitten and not appropriate (excesses of nutrients) for an adult or senior cat (which may require lower levels of certain nutrients, not higher). That's just the way it is. It shouldn't be hard to understand. Kittens REQUIRE (for proper nutrition) higher levels of fat, protein, phosphorus, calcium, etc. Adult and senior cats do not require the same levels of those nutrients as they did when they were kittens. Don't trick people into thinking that feeding an "all life stage" food to an older cat is okay. It may NOT be. That's all I'm saying. For anyone to come on here (especially after reading all of the info that has been posted about all life stage foods) and then ADVOCATE feeding this type of product is not being responsible. Will feeding an "all life stage" food guarantee problems? Of course not. Are you avoiding risk factors by feeding this type of food? No. >From: gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2) >>Dear Chris. >> [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] >Of course not. Are you avoiding risk factors by feeding this type of food? >No. Wrong. Now go get the proof that Alison asked for or shut up. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >Wrong. Now go get the proof that Alison asked for or shut up. Hijacking another thread, Lauren? Why don't you mind your own business? There was nothing wrong w/ what I said. If one of your minions had said it, you would be parroting it to anyone who would listen. You can go home now. > Wrong. Now go get the proof that Alison asked for or shut up. Done - See earlier post. Now who's going to shut up? No, I guess that won't happen you know way more than the board certified veterinary diplomates of the American College of Veterinary Nutrition and the American College of Veterinary Internal medicine who have spent thier lives studying the issues don't ya. >>Dear Chris. >> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Of course not. Are you avoiding risk factors by feeding this type of food? > No. Something to keep in mind here, if the food meets ALL lifestages as per AAFCO it also means it contains a MINIMUM of 0.8 % (dry matter basis) of phosphorous. Even if the manufacturer doesn't say the food meets ALL lifestages but you do the comparison of the proximate analysis with the AAFCO Growth and Reproduction minimums and all those minimums are met... then the food is an ALL lifestages as per AAFCO standards.  Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck (...) > Something to keep in mind here, if the food meets ALL lifestages as per > AAFCO it also means it contains a MINIMUM of 0.8 % (dry matter basis) of > phosphorous. Well, 0.6%, in fact (ie., well within the acceptable range for adult cats). > Even if the manufacturer doesn't say the food meets ALL lifestages but > you do the comparison of the proximate analysis with the AAFCO Growth > and Reproduction minimums and all those minimums are met... then the > food is an ALL lifestages as per AAFCO standards. To extend this: If the food says it is maintenance, it may also meet the kitten-requirements! The labelling has minimal practical meaning. Steve. > (...) > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Well, 0.6%, in fact (ie., well within the acceptable range for adult > cats). The AAFCO standard for growth & reproduction is a minimum of 0.8% DMB, the standard for adult maintenance is 0.5% DMB. For a food to claim "all life stages" it must meet the higher minimum not the lower one. >>Even if the manufacturer doesn't say the food meets ALL lifestages but >>you do the comparison of the proximate analysis with the AAFCO Growth [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Steve. Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck > > (...) > > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The AAFCO standard for growth & reproduction is a minimum of 0.8% DMB, > the standard for adult maintenance is 0.5% DMB. Not according to the figures Steve Crane (of Hills) recently posted ( http://makeashorterlink.com/?N3B422776). As you can see, Steve quotes (0.6 - 1.4%) as optimal for growth, and (0.5 - 0.8%) as optimal for adulthood. Are you disputing these figures? TBH, I'll tend to trust SC on this one, unless you can prove that he is in error. Steve. >>>(...) >>> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > Steve. I'm disputing that those numbers you quoted would be the AAFCO standards. I have an AAFCO standards sheet in front of me here. Here is a link to an online one: http://tinyurl.com/tzzn There are some maximum numbers, but none for phosphorous. I do agree with Steve's range as being healthy. Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck (...) > >>The AAFCO standard for growth & reproduction is a minimum of 0.8% DMB, > >>the standard for adult maintenance is 0.5% DMB. > > > > Not according to the figures Steve Crane (of Hills) recently posted ( > > http://makeashorterlink.com/?N3B422776). (...) > I'm disputing that those numbers you quoted would be the AAFCO > standards. I have an AAFCO standards sheet in front of me here. I didn't know if the numbers in the Small Animal Clin Nutr book were the same as those in the AAFCO guidelines, and it seems that you are correct - they are not the same. In fact, there are quite a few discrepancies between AAFCO and The Book, based on your link. > Here is a link to an online one: http://tinyurl.com/tzzn Thanks Joe, that's a nice link. > There are some maximum numbers, but none for phosphorous. Indeed. > I do agree with Steve's range as being healthy. Which is - presumably - the bottom line... Steve. > (...) > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > Which is - presumably - the bottom line... You bet! :-) > Steve. Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck >>Dear Chris. >> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Don't trick people into thinking that feeding an "all life stage" food to an > older cat is okay. It may NOT be. That's all I'm saying. I'd tend to agree with this considering all life stages will contain a minimum of 0.8 % DMB phosphorous... if an older cat does have undiagnosed CRF the phosphorous will speed the disease along. > For anyone to come > on here (especially after reading all of the info that has been posted about > all life stage foods) and then ADVOCATE feeding this type of product is not > being responsible. Will feeding an "all life stage" food guarantee problems? > Of course not. Are you avoiding risk factors by feeding this type of food? > No. Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck I'd tend to agree with this considering all life stages will contain a minimum of 0.8 % DMB phosphorous... if an older cat does have undiagnosed CRF the phosphorous will speed the disease along. Phosphorous? (Human ears perk up) We lost our 8 year old cat last week. He went from *appearing* to be fine (eating, drinking, using the box, acting normal) to being on deaths doorstep in 12 hours. He was in total kidney failure, liver failure you name it. One of the test results that was through the roof was phosphorous. Our vet thought he must have ingested something he shouldn't have but for the life of me I can't figure out what. The vet suggested laundry soap, Tylenol/aspirin/Aleve. My laundry detergent is phosphate free, nobody uses aspirin around here, I guess someone could have accidentally dropped a Tylenol or Aleve but nobody was aware of doing so. It's driving me nuts. I would very much like to track down what he got into so that none of the others get into it too. Wendy > I'd tend to agree with this considering all life stages will contain a > minimum of 0.8 % DMB phosphorous... if an older cat does have [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Wendy I am sorry to hear about your sudden lose. :-( Total kidney failure and a very high phosphorous level after testing by the vet? Kidneys lose their ability to get rid of excessive phosphorous from the blood when they start to malfunction. The kidneys end up working overtime to get rid of the phosphorous which they won't be able to do... becomes a vicious circle and the phosphorous builds and builds which in turn accelerates the progression of kidney failure. What food were you feeding, that may or may not shed some clues. Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck He was on Science Diet. He hadn't been showing symptoms that I could detect previous to his getting so sick. He was using the box on the same schedule as always. He was drinking and eating normally that morning. There was nothing abnormal with his stool or urine that I could see. I had a 13 yr. old cat die years ago from kidney failure and she had been making more than usual trips to the box for a while before she died. I didn't know what that meant then but have been on the lookout for it since. W Wendy wrote: > I'd tend to agree with this considering all life stages will contain a > minimum of 0.8 % DMB phosphorous... if an older cat does have [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Wendy I am sorry to hear about your sudden lose. :-( Total kidney failure and a very high phosphorous level after testing by the vet? Kidneys lose their ability to get rid of excessive phosphorous from the blood when they start to malfunction. The kidneys end up working overtime to get rid of the phosphorous which they won't be able to do... becomes a vicious circle and the phosphorous builds and builds which in turn accelerates the progression of kidney failure. What food were you feeding, that may or may not shed some clues. -- "Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck > He was on Science Diet. He hadn't been showing symptoms that I could detect > previous to his getting so sick. He was using the box on the same schedule [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > usual trips to the box for a while before she died. I didn't know what that > meant then but have been on the lookout for it since. Ouch! SD food is very reasonable with the phosphorous content in their foods. I'm wondering if the kidney failure has been going on for a long time undetected causing a slow build of the impurities in the blood. Steve or Phil might have more to say on this. Anything more I would say will be pure speculation on my part. > W > [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] > "Its the bugs that keep it running." > -Joe Canuck Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck >> He was on Science Diet. He hadn't been showing symptoms that I could >> detect [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Steve or Phil might have more to say on this. Anything more I would say > will be pure speculation on my part. Anything *anyone* says on this board regarding diagnosis is pure speculation and should be treated as such. Wendy, I'm sorry about your kitty. I hope you figure out what happened for your own peace of mind. :( >> W >> [quoted text clipped - 46 lines] >> >> What food were you feeding, that may or may not shed some clues. >Phosphorous? (Human ears perk up) We lost our 8 year old cat last week. He >went from *appearing* to be fine (eating, drinking, using the box, acting >normal) to being on deaths doorstep in 12 hours. He was in total kidney >failure, liver failure you name it. One of the test results that was through >the roof was phosphorous. I'm sorry to hear of your loss, Wendy. :( > >Dear Chris. > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > (excesses of nutrients) for an adult or senior cat (which may require lower > levels of certain nutrients, not higher). This *may* be true. IT IS NOT NECESSARILY SO. If you would like to maintain that ""All life stage" foods **have to contain** nutrient levels appropriate for kittens, not adult or senior animals" you are going to have to post hard proof. A product bearing the label, "Animal feeding tests per AAFCO's feeding procedures substantiate that this product provides complete and balanced nutrition for growth", has been fed to 8 or more kittens for 10 weeks. It didn't cause anemia. It didn't cause decreased blood taurine levels. It allowed the kittens to grow at a rate deemed acceptable to the AAFCO. Ten measly weeks of not stunting kittens. And from that, you extrapolate that it's inappropriate for an adult or senior cat? Ridiculous. -Alison in OH >>>Dear Chris. >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > levels appropriate for kittens, not adult or senior animals" you are > going to have to post hard proof. Check the AAFCO standards. Some nutrients have higher levels for the growth stage. > A product bearing the label, "Animal feeding tests per AAFCO's feeding > procedures substantiate that this product provides complete and balanced [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > And from that, you extrapolate that it's inappropriate for an adult or > senior cat? May be inappropriate due to higher levels of some nutrients. Phosphorous would be the most obvious example here. > Ridiculous. > > -Alison in OH Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck > Check the AAFCO standards. Some nutrients have higher levels for the > growth stage. Non-sequitur. I am referring to products that bear the AAFCO label for feed trials performed by AAFCO standards. Nutrients **do not** play a role, either via analysis or via formulation to fit a profile. -Alison in OH >>Check the AAFCO standards. Some nutrients have higher levels for the >>growth stage. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -Alison in OH Really? Then explain why AAFCO presently has 2 different profiles, one for growth & reproduction and the other for adult mainteanance each with their own minimum levels for various nutrients. Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck > > I am referring to products that bear the AAFCO label for feed trials > > performed by AAFCO standards. Nutrients **do not** play a role, either [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > growth & reproduction and the other for adult mainteanance each with > their own minimum levels for various nutrients. AAFCO profiles are independent of AAFCO protocols. HTH! -Alison in OH >From: Alison Perera ask.me@cwru.edu.invalid >This *may* be true. IT IS NOT NECESSARILY SO. If you would like to >maintain that ""All life stage" foods **have to contain** nutrient >levels appropriate for kittens, not adult or senior animals" you are >going to have to post hard proof. Generally speaking that is true. I'm sure there may be an exception or 2. I've already made that point in a previous post. >A product bearing the label, "Animal feeding tests per AAFCO's feeding >procedures substantiate that this product provides complete and balanced >nutrition for growth", has been fed to 8 or more kittens for 10 weeks. >And from that, you extrapolate that it's inappropriate for an adult or >senior cat? > >Ridiculous. Let's see what Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, Vol. IV has to say about it: (pg 117) "All-purpose foods are often assumed to be manufactured for adult animals. This assumption is based on the fact they are not called puppy or kiten foods and have pictures of adult animals on the package. However, these foods must be balanced to support the nutritional requirements for growth and lactation, even if they are fed to adult or geriatric animals. Thus, all-purpose foods provide nutrients in excess of allowances for adult and geriatric pets." The charts comparing KNFs (Key Nutritional Factors) for adult cats is on page 309 and for kittens is on page 334. Alison Perera <ask.me@cwru.edu.invalid> wrote in message news:<ask.me- > Dear Chris. > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > foods have to contain nutrient levels appropriate for kittens, not adult > or senior animals." I think we've been here before but let me try to explain it. There are only two feeding trial tests mandated by AAFCO. One is for growth and lactation, the other is for adult maintenance. There is no feeding trial for "All LIfe Stages" or "All Purpose". In order to use the AAFCO claim of "All Life Stages" you must pass the feeding trial for growth and lactation, NOT for adult maintenance. Any food which carries the AAFCO claim "For All Life Stages" is indeed a growth food by it's very definition. That means it must have sufficient levels of nutrients to support growth, which necessarily means it contains more than is appropriate for adults. Lots of manufactures use this as it is cheaper than creating a separate kitten food and an adult food, or a speparate puppy food and an adult dog food. Small Animal Clinical Nutrition Pocket Companion 4th Edition. Chapter 3 Commercial Pet Foods page 71 authored by Crane SW DVM PhD Diplomate ACVIM, Griffin RW, DVM Diplomate ACVIM, Cowell CS DVM, Stout NP, DVM ACVIM, Thatcher CD, DVM PhD, ACVIM, Remillard, RL, DVM PhD, Diplpomate ACVN "Many people assume all purpose foods are manufactured for adult animals. This assumption is baased on the fact that they are not called puppy or kitten foods and have pictures of adult animals on the package. However, these foods must be balanced to support the nutritional requirements for growth and lactation, even if they are fed to adult or geriatric animals. Thus these foods provide nutrients in excess of allowances for adult and geriatric pets." > > >From: "Karen M." mskitty@easystreetNOSPAM.com > > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > You are wrong. No, he is not. > Very, very wrong. And it's getting on my nerves. > In fact, post proof or retract your statement that ""All life stage" > foods have to contain nutrient levels appropriate for kittens, not adult > or senior animals." Nutrient levels are generally higher for growth and lactation than for adult maintenance. To qualify as "all life stage", the diet must satisfy the *greater* nutritional needs for growth and lactation - which by default, meet, and for some nutrients, *exceed* the nutritional requirements for adult and senior maintenance. For example, after skeletal growth is complete, the calcium and phosphorus requirements decline. Energy requirements are also higher for growth and lactation than for maintenance. For example, the DER for adult maintenance is 0.8 to 1.6 x RER. The DER for average, neutered, healthy adult cats is1.2 x RER. The DER for growing kittens is about 2.5 x RER. Thus the caloric density of "all life stage" diets must be considerably higher than adult and senior maintenance diets simply because young kittens have smaller stomachs than adult cats. Intake is ultimately determined by the size of the stomach. So unless the portions are carefully calculated and measured, feeding all life stage diets to adult and senior cats can easily and quickly lead to obesity. Obesity increases the risk factor of death in middle-aged cats 2.7x above that of cats with ideal body weight, therefore, preventing obesity can significantly increase longevity. Therefore, all life stage diets must meet the nutrient requirements for kittens, not adult or senior cats to qualify as an "all life stage" diet. > >From: "Karen M." mskitty@easystreetNOSPAM.com > (...) > Karen, you're wrong. Haven't you been reading the all life stage food > posts? Any food whose AAFCO label states that it is for "all life stages" IS > a kitten food. "All life stage" foods have to contain nutrient levels > appropriate for kittens, not adult or senior animals. Mr G, You are wrong. Again. And again. In the thread somewhere thataway, I pointed out in some detail why you are wrong. I provided links to some sites that list nutrient values of various foods, where your errors are trivial for anyone to see. TBH, I can only conclude that: - You are trolling, - Absolutely nothing you say should be taken at face value; I would strongly advise anyone reading your posts to NOT believe anything you say. Food composition et al: http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/ This data appears to be provided by someone without an axe to grind, or agenda to heave around. From the FDA's site (http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petlabel.htm): Regarding ALS foods, '...the higher levels of nutrients would not be harmful to the healthy adult animal...' And: 'A maintenance ration will meet the needs of an adult, non-reproducing dog or cat of *normal* activity, but may not be sufficient for a growing, reproducing, or *hard-working* animal' Emphasis (*) added. But, returning to the OP, in an attempt to avoid a complete derailment by Gaubster: > How long should he be on kitten food? How long's a piece of string? Put it this way - after 1 year or so, he will have stopped growing. > I hesitate to ask as I > gather there is a debate over dry and wet food but should he be on more > "wet" food because he is a male? I would say yes. > He doesn't seem to want to eat much at one > sitting but would rather munch during the day. This is a challenge as Isabel > is a total chow hound and must be watched like a hawk or she'll eat the > kitten food if left out. > Any suggestions how to handle the needs of all these guys so that they all > get what they need? You could try to find a food that seems to fit the nutrional requirements of both growing cats and adult cats - have a look at the Katkarma link - and so no longer care if they eat each other's food. But, TBH, the actual food you want to feed doesn't seem to be your problem - more, how to get the khats to eat *when* they are supposed to. You can train the kitten to eat at set times in the day. Just put the food down at set times, and remove it after a certain period of time. Khatoid will then learn that if he doesn't chow down *now*, he'll have to wait a few hours for the next feed. Not sure I would be entirely happy doing this with a youngish kitten though. You could try to find a food that one cat likes, but the other does not (yeah, right). I think you can get automated feeder bowls that open at set times? Or maybe I'm imagining this? Steve. > You could try to find a food that one cat likes, but the other does > not (yeah, right). Believe it or not, but my 3 each eat different wet food. I dunno how that happened but it works out. > I think you can get automated feeder bowls that open at set times? > Or > maybe I'm imagining this? Yup. Petco has 'em but they're like US $30 so I haven't tried it. The even have a cold pack to put in the bottom for wet food. Same price plus shipping in F&S catalog. (...) > Yup. Petco has 'em but they're like US $30 so I haven't tried it. > The even have a cold pack to put in the bottom for wet food. Same > price plus shipping in F&S catalog. Hm, more like $40. The bowls also appear to only open once per day. It would be nice if they could be programmed to open at several times during the day. I guess there are 'multi day' versions that hold several portions (http://www.petdoors.com/feed_me!.htm), but they all look a bit clunky. Steve. > (...) > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Steve. Simple, buy two, program one for the morning and one for the evening and cut the amount in half. > Simple, buy two, program one for the morning and one for the evening > and cut the amount in half. The $30 model has two compartments with two timers. I wish I knew about it last year. Even though Shadow had started eating on his own, his liver values were still high and he needed more feedings than I was home for. He would only eat canned food then. I used to take 2 hr lunch breaks to go home and feed him. I think my boss thought I was nuts. > news@stevethepsycho.co.uk (Steve G) wrote in message (...) > > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Simple, buy two, program one for the morning and one for the evening > and cut the amount in half. A clunky solution using clunky kit! I think I would prefer the clunkiness of the multi-day versions, TBH. Anyway, it would be easy for them to stick in a simple programmable timer, or maybe even an IR sensor that opens the tray lid when the cat approaches. Steve. > I provided links to some sites that list nutrient values of >various foods, where your errors are trivial for anyone to see. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >strongly advise anyone reading your posts to NOT believe anything you >say. I'm sorry that you disagree. Steve, in your other posts you even conceded some of my points. Why now, are you forgetting that? I suppose I could provide a list of names of people that no one should take what they say at face value either? For some reason, it seems fashionable to gang up on me. Perhaps the arguments I make are persuasive and true (although not politically correct!) >Food composition et al: http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/ I checked that page and some of the information is wrong. I wonder what else is wrong? Just one example is the "unnatural preservative" column....Science Diet uses natural preservatives in all of their foods now...they have for about a year (that doesn't even address the whole NON-ISSUE of preservatives and why they are helpful). HealthBlend (by Hill's) was discontinued many years ago. What other information is outdated on that page? >Regarding ALS foods, '...the higher levels of nutrients would not be >harmful to the healthy adult animal...' Maybe not, but why feed higher levels of nutrients to an animal that doesn't require them? Hmm? If the internal organs have to work that much harder to "process the excesses", is that really proper nutrition? Not to mention the fact that many times, a cat may be in sub-clinical renal failure and higher levels of phosphorus (only one example) may be deleterious to that animal. Using your example, a healthy teenager or young adult could abuse themselves by intaking higher levels of fat, sodium, sugar, etc. Would that be bad if they are healthy? Not neccessarily. But after many years of those "higher nutrient levels", would there not be some problems that would develop? Hmmm? > Perhaps the > arguments I make are persuasive and true (although not politically correct!) Quaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!! ROFL > I checked that page and some of the information is wrong. I wonder what else > is wrong? Just one example is the "unnatural preservative" column....Science > Diet uses natural preservatives in all of their foods now...they have for . > about a year Great. Perhaps if we keep complaining about the order of ingredients and switching to other foods, they will fix that too. > >Regarding ALS foods, '...the higher levels of nutrients would not be > >harmful to the healthy adult animal...' What nutrients? You wanna convince me that a higher level of carbs is good for an older cat? > Maybe not, but why feed higher levels of nutrients to an animal that doesn't > require them? Exactly! Why feed carbohydrates to cats????? Hmmm? > But after many years of those "higher nutrient > levels", would there not be some problems that would develop? Hmmm? Sure there would, like obesity and diabetes. >> >Regarding ALS foods, '...the higher levels of nutrients would not be >> >harmful to the healthy adult animal...' > >What nutrients? You wanna convince me that a higher level of carbs is >good for an older cat? Are you taking this up w/ Steve, since he posted it? > >What nutrients? You wanna convince me that a higher level of carbs is > >good for an older cat? > > Are you taking this up w/ Steve, since he posted it? No, to you. If you are going to decrease protein, fat, and ashes, you gotta fill in the whole with carbs, right? >From: c864320@yahoo.com (Liz) >Date: 11/8/03 3:43 PM Pacific Standard Time [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >No, to you. If you are going to decrease protein, fat, and ashes, you >gotta fill in the whole with carbs, right? I didn't make the post, Steve (psycho) from the UK did. Take it up w/ him if you have a problem with it! > >No, to you. If you are going to decrease protein, fat, and ashes, you > >gotta fill in the whole with carbs, right? > > I didn't make the post, Steve (psycho) from the UK did. Take it up w/ him if > you have a problem with it! Aren´t you the one stating that senior cats need a diet for senior cats? Aren´t you the one criticizing excess nutrients in all life stages food? So the question is for you. >From: c864320@yahoo.com (Liz) >Aren´t you the one stating that senior cats need a diet for senior >cats? Aren´t you the one criticizing excess nutrients in all life >stages food? >So the question is for you. Liz, you quoted something that Steve put in a post and directed it to me as if I was the one making the post. If you have a problem w/ what Steve posted, take it up w/ him--not me. Secondly, I thought you killfiled me a few weeks back so what's your deal? Are you trying to start a fight? >> >No, to you. If you are going to decrease protein, fat, and ashes, you >> >gotta fill in the whole with carbs, right? >> >> I didn't make the post, Steve (psycho) from the UK did. Take it up w/ him >if >> you have a problem with it! (...) > I'm sorry that you disagree. Steve, in your other posts you even conceded > some of my points. Why now, are you forgetting that? The same reason you are forgetting that you conceded some of my points, perhaps! Mind you, I'm not sure what points I was supposed to have 'conceded'. Enlighten me! > I suppose I could provide a > list of names of people that no one should take what they say at face value > either? You could provide a list of famous cheeses of the world, and it would probably be a list of building materials. > For some reason, it seems fashionable to gang up on me. Perhaps the > arguments I make are persuasive and true (although not politically correct!) The reason people are 'ganging up' on you (hey! are we back in the playground then?) is because you are generally wrong, and are exceptionally reluctant to see anything in its true shades of grey. > >Food composition et al: http://webpages.charter.net/katkarma/ > > I checked that page Eventually! > and some of the information is wrong. I wonder what else > is wrong? Shrug. You are free to take what you expect to find. > Just one example is the "unnatural preservative" column....Science > Diet uses natural preservatives in all of their foods now...they have for > about a year Gosh! Is SD pandering to the knit-your-own food camp? How ... unscientific ... Heh. (...) > What other information is outdated on that page? I don't know, although the site has been updated within the past year. I imagine that most foods will not change greatly in their composition in the mid-term. However, uncertainty about this is why I've mailed some of the companies whose food I feed - a double check. You see, unlike you, I have no axe to grind. All I'm interested in is what's 'best' for my cats. Simple. (...) > Maybe not, but why feed higher levels of nutrients to an animal that doesn't > require them? Hmm? If the internal organs have to work that much harder to > "process the excesses", is that really proper nutrition? First, you don't know that the animal does not require them. Second, you don't know that any nutritional excess does cause the 'internal organs' to work 'harder' to process the excess. Third, you don't know at what levels 'excess' occurs. Fourth, you don't know if 'excess' calorific density is even a meaningful concept. And so on. You snipped the other quote from the FDA, but here's a human-based analogy: Humans have an RDA for iron. For most humans, the RDA is correct. However, if you are active or athletic, the RDA for iron may be inadequate - you can develop sports anaemia. Individual differences, you see. > Not to mention the > fact that many times, a cat may be in sub-clinical renal failure and higher > levels of phosphorus (only one example) may be deleterious to that animal. You keep coming back to phos. I have no quibble with feeding a 'sensible' level of phos. (Although, AFAIK, a minority of cats die through CRF). To obtain a sensible level of phos, you do not need to feed SD. > Using your example, a healthy teenager or young adult could abuse themselves > by intaking higher levels of fat, sodium, sugar, etc. Would that be bad if > they are healthy? Well, you've got quite a mix of 'nutrients' there. The short answer is that humans can use a vast range of diets with no problems - eg, diets can range from very high carb, to very high fat. The crux is really taking in the correct number of calories - and a sufficient level of vitamins, minerals, and so forth. I believe the same applies to a cat. Take a diet of 50% protein and 25% fat, and a diet of 45% protein and 20% fat. I suggest that these composition differences are unimportant, as long as the cat is taking in the correct number of cals. Also bear in mind that I'm not saying that it's OK to feed a diet with 3% phos and 3% sodium - the main crux of what I'm saying is: - The labelling on a cat (i.e., maint, ALS, whatever) tells you basically nothing about the composition of a food. - Feeding diets with different proportions of fat, protein, (carb, even), vitamin levels, etc. ain't a problem, unless - for example - the vitamin levels are up into the pathological levels. The latter is not, AFAIK, true of any cat foods. Steve. >The reason people are 'ganging up' on you (hey! are we back in the >playground then?) is because you are generally wrong, and are >exceptionally reluctant to see anything in its true shades of grey. You are the first one to inject shades of grey! You also intentionally try to make simple concepts difficult to understand. Why that is...I don't know? Generally I'm not wrong, and the truth seems to be unpopular nowadays for some reason. >I don't know, although the site has been updated within the past year. >I imagine that most foods will not change greatly in their composition [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >You see, unlike you, I have no axe to grind. All I'm interested in is >what's 'best' for my cats. Simple. I don't have an axe to grind w/ anyone. I find it quite unfortunate that a lot of people "hear" something and assume it to be true. (like meat as the first ingredient, or corn is bad, or preservatives are bad, for instance!) Do any of those foods (besides Hill's) utilize a fixed formula? I would wager the vast majority of them do not. >To obtain a sensible level of phos, you do not need to >feed SD. You saw how many foods (and a lot of them were "premium") were excessively high in phosphorus, didn't you? >> Using your example, a healthy teenager or young adult could abuse >themselves [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >taking in the correct number of calories - and a sufficient level of >vitamins, minerals, and so forth. Yes, because it isn't always just one particular nutrient of concern, it would be all of them. A diet high in fat over the long term would be bad, no? > > you are (...) > >exceptionally reluctant to see anything in its true shades of grey. > > You are the first one to inject shades of grey! Well, I think the greyness is inherent in the area, and I very much doubt I'm the first person to notice! > You also intentionally try to > make simple concepts difficult to understand. Why that is...I don't know? Heavens! It's not difficult to understand, surely? As to why I do this ... well, as a scientist I like to see things made as simple as they can be - but not simpler! In attempting to make things 'simple', you are posting misleading or incorrect statements. (...) > >You see, unlike you, I have no axe to grind. All I'm interested in is > >what's 'best' for my cats. Simple. > > I don't have an axe to grind w/ anyone. It does not seem that way from my side of the keyboard! > I find it quite unfortunate that a lot > of people "hear" something and assume it to be true. Don't you see that you are doing the selfsame thing? > of those foods (besides Hill's) utilize a fixed formula? I would wager the > vast majority of them do not. I wager you've made no attempt to verify that! > You saw how many foods (and a lot of them were "premium") were excessively > high in phosphorus, didn't you? I did. Do you see how many had a 'sensible' level of phos? Did you note that many non-premium foods contain a sensible level of phos? Did you note that the level of phos basically cannot be predicted based on the labelling of a food as ALS, maint, kitten, whatever? Hell, maybe I should put together a graph to illustrate this... (...) > >can range from very high carb, to very high fat. The crux is really > >taking in the correct number of calories - and a sufficient level of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > would be all of them. A diet high in fat over the long term would be bad, > no? Not necessarily. Depends on the nature of the fat, to begin with. Once more, you are trying to simplify beyond the level you can simplify things and not lose information! Steve. >> You are the first one to inject shades of grey! > >Well, I think the greyness is inherent in the area, and I very much >doubt I'm the first person to notice! Instead of trying to explain the manner in as simple a way as possible, you convolute things even more so. >> You also intentionally try to >> make simple concepts difficult to understand. Why that is...I don't know? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >can be - but not simpler! In attempting to make things 'simple', you >are posting misleading or incorrect statements. No, you just take it that way. As a scientist, you should be trying to find an analogy or explanation that would explain the concept in such a way that it would be as easy as possible to understand. Instead you muddy the waters even further. I'm just trying to help explain things, that' all! :) >> I don't have an axe to grind w/ anyone. > >It does not seem that way from my side of the keyboard! Again, I'm sorry you take it that way. >> of those foods (besides Hill's) utilize a fixed formula? I would wager the > >> vast majority of them do not. > >I wager you've made no attempt to verify that! I've contacted the major US makers of foods--Purina, Nutro, IAMS, Wellness, Heinz IVD, Waltham, etc. Again, I'm trying to allow for an exception...but none of the major companies offer a fixed formula when I called them last. >> Yes, because it isn't always just one particular nutrient of concern, it >> would be all of them. A diet high in fat over the long term would be bad, >> no? >Not necessarily. Depends on the nature of the fat, to begin with. Once >more, you are trying to simplify beyond the level you can simplify >things and not lose information! Generally speaking, you DON'T agree that a diet high in fat is bad? There are exceptions to everything, but I'm talking generally here. Or do you want to parse words some more? (...) > As a scientist, you should be trying to find an > analogy or explanation that would explain the concept in such a way that it > would be as easy as possible to understand. Someone on a different group I'm involved with recently said: 'I'm beginning to think that for some people, it will never be simple enough.' (...) > Generally speaking, you DON'T agree that a diet high in fat is bad? Are we speaking saturated, unsaturated, etc.? How 'high' are we speaking of? So, I prefer to 'parse' some more words. Or, in other words, I prefer to find out what the question is before replying! Steve. >From: news@stevethepsycho.co.uk (Steve G) >> > you are (...) >> >exceptionally reluctant to see anything in its true shades of grey. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >can be - but not simpler! In attempting to make things 'simple', you >are posting misleading or incorrect statements. Which Gaubster does time and time again. What I find so annoying is that even after he's been proven wrong, he will go into the same exact argument the very next day, over and over again. He absolutely refuses to learn. I admire your patience, Steve. I lost mine a long time ago. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > Which Gaubster does time and time again. What I find so annoying > is that even after he's been proven wrong, he will go into the same > exact argument the very next day, over and over again. He > absolutely refuses to learn. I admire your patience, Steve. I > lost mine a long time ago. ^^^^^^^^^ Me tooooooo! lol >>Which Gaubster does time and time again. What I find so annoying >>is that even after he's been proven wrong, he will go into the same [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Me tooooooo! lol I'm slowly getting there because the posts contain more bickering than they do actual useful information. But then again, I could be accused of that as well. "Me three" coming soon to a post near you. ;-) Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >Which Gaubster does time and time again. What I find so annoying is that >even >after he's been proven wrong, he will go into the same exact argument the >very >next day, over and over again. I have yet to be proven wrong. What you are mistaking for facts are other people's opinions. The truth doesn't change. Except for you, as you go around making it up on the fly! (...) > What I find so annoying is that even > after he's been proven wrong, he will go into the same exact argument the > very next day, over and over again. Well, at least he's consistent. > He absolutely refuses to learn. I admire your > patience, Steve. I lost mine a long time ago. I haven't been posting here long - there's plenty of time for me to develop a forehead-shaped dent in my keyboard, and to respond to Mr G entirely IN CAPS. Steve. >>>From: "Karen M." mskitty@easystreetNOSPAM.com > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > This data appears to be provided by someone without an axe to grind, > or agenda to heave around. I'd agree with you on that. However I have noted in a couple of cases each on the dry and wet side that the data provided for specific foods is somewhat incorrect when compared to the manufacturer information. These are not huge errors that can likely be attributed to not having revisited and updated the data in some cases. It is an excellent starting point since it provides a comparison of foods in one location. However, one can essentially do the same thing on their own by checking what foods are available locally... then compiling the data for those foods that interest them. > From the FDA's site (http://www.fda.gov/cvm/index/consumer/petlabel.htm): > [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > Steve. Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck (...) > However I have noted in a couple of cases each on the dry and wet side > that the data provided for specific foods is somewhat incorrect when > compared to the manufacturer information. These are not huge errors that > can likely be attributed to not having revisited and updated the data in > some cases. Yes, I've basically made the assumption that these figures are in the ballpark - I've assumed that they will more-or-less represent the state of the foods now. This should be so, as long as formulations haven't changed greatly in the meantime. However, it would be nice if each food had a date listed, giving when the analysis was obtained. But when you say this... > It is an excellent starting point since it provides a comparison of > foods in one location. However, one can essentially do the same thing on > their own by checking what foods are available locally... then compiling > the data for those foods that interest them. ...you are dead on. I've mailed some of the manufacturers whose food is available near me. So far, I have one reply; Petguard refused to release the figures, stating that they are 'proprietary'. This makes me wonder how the stats for Petguard were obtained on the various websites. It also makes me very reluctant indeed to feed PG - and I shall mail PG and tell them that their refusal will cost 'em a customer. C'est la vie. Let's see if anyone else can come up with the goods... Steve. >It's so hard to get a cat to lose weight, isn't it? I feel for you, >believe me! :) I have the opposite problem. I've been adopting Old George, a neighborhood stray, over the past several months. He lives with me pretty much all the time now. There is always food in his dish, of the kinds that I've found to be his favorites. Still, he's skinny. I might add that it took a surprisingly short time for him to go from a beggar taking any handout he could get to a brat spoiled rotten. -- Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here. > I might add that it took a surprisingly short time for him to go > from a beggar taking any handout he could get to a brat spoiled > rotten. Marek, that is very typical from what I've seen. When Bonnie was a skinny feral of about 5 months scrounging off any food left out for the strays, she would eat anything I put out including garbage if the trash can lid wasn't on securely. Now that she's a comfortable teenager living the good life, I can't get her to eat canned food (other than some kitten food occasionally, for training purposes you see lol ) and she's getting a little too chubby on dry even though I ration it carefully. Two other recently adopted strays from the same colony are also turning into picky kitties. A friend of mine gave them a home and he says it's like pulling teeth to get them to eat "good food" instead of the cheap dry stuff. He's making better progress than me, though. If you think he's too skinny even though he is eating you might want to push a little harder to get him to vet for a checkup. :) > >It's so hard to get a cat to lose weight, isn't it? I feel for you, > >believe me! :) [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > pretty much all the time now. There is always food in his dish, of the > kinds that I've found to be his favorites. Still, he's skinny. You might want to have his thyroid levels checked. Instead of the standard T4 test, I recommend the free T4 by equilibrium dialysis (fT4ED) - its the most accurate thyroid test to measure fT4. Itss more sensitive in assessing thyroid function in cats where the T4 may be depressed or borderline or fluctuates between normal and high. Good luck. Phil > We have a 16 year old spayed female tabby, Tigger, who has a tendency to be > overweight. We got her down to 9 lbs. but this is still a little heavy for [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > W Wendy, I'm sorry your question got turned into a 3-ring circus. I think the most important thing right now is keeping your overweight kitties aways from the kitten food and vice versa. I hope some of the suggestions here help. :) Karen <snip> > Any suggestions how to handle the needs of all these guys so that they all > get what they need? > > W Wendy, I'm sorry your question got turned into a 3-ring circus. I think the most important thing right now is keeping your overweight kitties aways from the kitten food and vice versa. I hope some of the suggestions here help. :) Karen Thanks. :o) I just worry about proper nutrition for these guys. My first cat died at the age of 13 from kidney failure. We fed her grocery store food. The vet recommended Science Diet or Iams for our next cats to avoid the same problem with them. Guess it worked for Tiggy at least since she's still with us 16 years later. She's outlived 3 male cats though. :o( One was poisoned (my mistake I let him outside) the next one died of liver cancer and the last one I'm not sure, but the kidneys failed again. Guess that's why I'm worried about Bootsy eating the right stuff. I also didn't want to do anything that would create antagonism between the cats. My house is too small for kitty wars. I kinda liked the idea of a box with an opening only big enough for Boots. But he will definitely have to be banned from the kitchen until the girls get their breakfast. He will pass up his own food to get theirs. W |
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