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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / November 2003Declawing: glad I took the time
Well, I posted here many months ago regarding a stray that we decided to spay and keep. She turned into a beautiful cat with a nice shiny coat. She's still outside, and she sleeps on the deck in a nice little shingled house that I built for her. She's a good mouser, and we live next to a cornfield, o she get alot of hunting in. People keep telling me I should just make the leap and bring her into the house. I had always just assumed that declawing was a "normal" part of owning an indoor cat. I'm glad a sifted through the many posts and opinions. I didn't realize that so many people consider it to be a horrible mutilation. I was also interested to read the data regarding the effect on behavior (soiling, etc.) Now I'm not sure what to do. I absolutely will not tolerate destruction of our carpet or furniture. We already raised two babies that vomited on or marked with markers everything we own. We finally have a nice house now, and I won't stand by and watch a cat shred it. Should we try to find her another home? We tried before, and failed. Hi Mitch, I'm not quite sure what the problem is . Do you mean to keep her inside 24/7?. There's no need to do that . If she wants to come in and out , let her. You can train her to use a scratching post but she will also scratch outside. Alison > Well, I posted here many months ago regarding a stray that we decided > to spay and keep. She turned into a beautiful cat with a nice shiny [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > Should we try to find her another home? > We tried before, and failed. >From: Mitch@hotmail.com >Well, I posted here many months ago regarding a stray that we decided >to spay and keep. She turned into a beautiful cat with a nice shiny [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] >Should we try to find her another home? >We tried before, and failed. If the choice is mutilating the cat or finding her another home, then absolutely find her another home. Cutting off body parts to save your furniture is not the right thing to do by any means. However, if the cat is properly trained, appropriate scratching posts and surfaces provided, claws trimmed, etc., then there shouldnt' be a problem having her in your home. I have a very good article link in my signature for you to read. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >If the choice is mutilating the cat or finding her another home, then >absolutely find her another home. I'm not saying that I strongly feel declawing is "WRONG!!!!!" :-), but I am going to look into it more before doing it. After all, animals are animals. Maybe they were never meant to be domesticated at all. Maybe getting her declawed is better than having her sleep out in the rain and snow. Roy sure thought his tiger was "trained." All the cat owners I know have a very casual attitude towards it, like it's nothing. So I was ready to follow suit, but decided to research it. Poor cat is looking at me through the sliding door: "Make up your mind, ya freakin' jerk!" circa Mon, 03 Nov 2003 03:59:19 GMT, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Mitch@hotmail.com (Mitch@hotmail.com) said, > All the cat owners I know have a very casual attitude towards it, like > it's nothing. So I was ready to follow suit, but decided to research > it. Please do. It is a gruesome, barbaric procedure, and it isn't necessary. Laura  SignatureDo not do unto others as you would that they should do unto you. Their tastes may not be the same. -George Bernard Shaw >From: Mitch@hotmail.com >>If the choice is mutilating the cat or finding her another home, then >>absolutely find her another home. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >After all, animals are animals. Ah yes, they are animals. But they are also living breathing feeling beings that deserve to be treated respectfully. Declawing is 10 painful amputations of the last digit of each toe. Cats use their claws as a means of communication, much like we use our voices. A declawed cat is much like a person without a larynx. Comparing declawing to us having the ends of our fingers amputated is not actually completely accurate. The claw is harder to remove than the tip of our fingers because we don't retract our fingertips. Our fingertip is not set into the joint below in a complex way like a cat's claw is. Cutting out pieces of an animal's body for convenience is just wrong from all aspects. Cats actually walk on their first digit, which is the digit that is amputated. They can begin to walk incorrectly due to the amputation. Declawed cats can become fear biters. Cats first defense mechanism are their claws, when these are gone they bite. Biting can cause severe blood poisoning . Declawed cats can and do suffer behavioral disorders, such as not using the litter box due to discomfort in their feet, and may use the rest of the house as their litterbox. They also have trouble jumping and landing, and in some severe cases, both domestic and wild cats have become lame and even paralyzed upon being declawed. There are alternatives to declawing such as nail trimming. Nail trimming makes the nails blunt, so they do not puncture through materials, such as couches and furniture. Products such as Soft Paws, which are plastic nail covers, can prevent scratching and aide in proper training. Declawing is inhumane and painful to these animals. Animals are live sentient beings, not objects. A couch does not feel pain and will not notice the damage done to it. A cat surely will. "Cats have retractable nails, also known as "claws". Unlike most mammals who walk on the soles of the paws or feet, cats are digitigrade, which means they walk on their toes. Their back, shoulder and leg joints, muscles, tendons, ligaments and nerves are naturally designed to support and distribute the cat's weight across its toes as it walks, runs and climbs. A cat's claws are used for balance, for exercising, and for stretching the muscles in their legs, back, shoulders, and paws. They stretch these muscles by digging their claws into a surface and pulling back against their own clawhold - similar to isometric exercising for humans. This is the only way a cat can exercise, stretch and tone the muscles of its back and shoulders. The toes cause the foot to meet the ground at a precise angle to keep the leg, shoulder and back muscles and joints in proper alignment. Removal of the last digits of the toes causes the foot to meet the ground at an unnatural angle that can cause back pain similar to that in humans caused by wearing improper shoes. " "Contrary to most people's idea of declawing, surgery involves severing not just the claws, but whole phalanges (up to the joint), including bone, ligaments, and tendons! Complications of this amputation can be excruciating pain, damage to the radial nerve, hemorrhage, bone chips that prevent healing, painful regrowth of deformed claw inside of the paw, and chronic back and joint pain as shoulder, leg and back muscles weaken. Many cats also suffer a loss of balance since they can no longer achieve a secure foothold on their stumps. " "Some cats are so shocked by declawing that their personalities change. In some cases, when declawed cats use the litterbox after surgery, their feet are so tender they associate their new pain with the box...permanently. Others that can no longer mark with their claws, they mark with urine instead. Many declawed cats become so traumatized by this painful mutilation that they end up spending their maladjusted lives perched on top of doors and refrigerators, out of reach of real and imaginary predators against whom they no longer have any adequate defense. A cat relies on its claws as its primary means of defense. Removing the claws makes a cat feel defenseless and it can either become very defensive and resort to biting, or withdrawn and paranoid. They not only lose their grip, but also their grip on reality, seeming unable to concentrate on much beyond the loss of their claws, their vulnerability and confusion as to what has happened to them. " Yes, there are many things that can be done. First off, always play with the cat with toys, not your fingers. You can get your cat a tall sturdy scratching post with sisal rope. I also have cardboard scratching pads too as some cats are horizontal scratchers. You can clip the claws blunt. I use a cat scissors made by Four Paws and it works very well. I find the best time to trim claws is when the cat is sleepy, that way he is less likely to protest. The first time you trim the claws, you may want to have your vet or vet tech show you how. To trim a cat's claws, place her or him on a table or on your lap, and facing away from you. Lift one of the legs so that the lower part of the leg rests in your upturned fingers. Holding the leg securely but non-threateningly between the heel of your thumb and the tips of your middle, ring, and little fingers, grasp the paw between your thumb and forefinger. Press down gently on top of the paw with your thumb, spreading the toes and extending the claws. Check each claw individually. Do not trim blunt or rounded claws. If the nail is honed to a talon-like point, clip it. Be careful to clip the hooked part of the claw only. Avoid cutting into the pink tissue visible inside the nail. Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director of the Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral research, explains declawing: "The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature of cats' recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine recoveries, including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are fairly peaceful, declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the walls of the recovery cage because of excruciating pain. Cats that are more stoic huddle in the corner of the recovery cage, immobilized in a state of helplessness, presumably by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits the dictionary definition of mutilation to a tee. Words such as deform, disfigure, disjoint, and dismember all apply to this surgery. Partial digital amputation is so horrible that it has been employed for torture of prisoners of war, and in veterinary medicine, the clinical procedure serves as model of severe pain for testing the efficacy of analgesic drugs. Even though analgesic drugs can be used postoperatively, they rarely are, and their effects are incomplete and transient anyway, so sooner or later the pain will emerge." "Declawing, or onychectomy, is an amputation of the toe at the last joint. This removes the claw and the bone from which it originates. On a human hand this would be an amputation at the knuckle just above the nail. It is not just removal of the claw as many people think." Matthew J. Ehrenberg, DVM "It is serious surgery. Your cat's claw is not a toenail. It is actually closely adhered to the bone. So closely adhered that to remove the claw, the last bone of your the cat's claw has to be removed. Declawing is actually an amputation of the last joint of your cat's "toes". When you envision that, it becomes clear why declawing is not a humane act. It is a painful surgery, with a painful recovery period." Dr. Christianne Schelling, DVM "The amputation of the nail is accomplished with a guillotine nail cutter, which cuts across the first joint of the toe" Dr. Paul Rowan, DVM "Declawing (onchyectomy) is a surgical procedure that amputates the 3rd phalanx bone and claw of all ten front foot toes of a cat. This is comparable to the amputation of the last bone of each finger in the human hand." Dr. Jennifer Kissinger, DVM "The feline digit, just like the human digit (finger), possesses three phalanxes. When a cat is declawed it is the third or last phalanx, that is completely removed or amputated." Murphy Animal Hospital, Tampa, Florida "Declawing, or onychectomy, is the amputation of the claw and last bone (third phalanx) of the cat's toes at the first joint on the front feet. It's the equivalent of removing the last bone of all your fingers." Dr. Alice Crook, Head, Animal Welfare Unit at Atlantic Veterinary College, University of Prince Edward Island. "Declawing is the surgical amputation under general anesthesia of the last part of the toe - comparable to the removal of your fingertip at the first joint." Veterinary Information Network, Inc "The most common surgical procedure, onychectomy, or "declawing", is amputation of the claw and the end toe bone joint." The Cat Fanciers' Association "Declawing a cat involves general anesthesia and amputation of the last joint of each toe, including the bones, not just the nail." Doctors Who's Who, Inc. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1998 Aug 1;213(3):370-3412 Comparison of effects of elective tenectomy or onychectomy in cats. Jankowski AJ, Brown DC, Duval J, Gregor TP, Strine LE, Ksiazek LM, Ott AH Department of Clinical Studies, Veterinary Teaching Hospital, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia 19104, USA. CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS: Owners should be aware of the high complication rate for both procedures. Vet Surg 1994 Jul-Aug;23(4):274-80 Feline onychectomy at a teaching institution: a retrospective study of 163 cases. Tobias KS Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, Washington State University College of Veterinary Medicine, Pullman 99164-6610. One hundred sixty-three cats underwent onychectomy from January 1985 to November 1992. Onychectomy was performed with guillotine-type nail shears (62%), surgical blade (24.5%), or both (8.6%), and wound closure consisted of bandages alone (61.3%), bandages after suture closure (26.4%), or tissue adhesive application (9.2%). The duration of surgery was significantly longer when onychectomy was performed with a blade or when suture closure was used instead of bandages alone (P < .05). Fifty percent of the cats had one or more complications immediately after surgery. Early postoperative complications included pain (38.1%), hemorrhage (31.9%), lameness (26.9%), swelling (6.3%), or non-weight-bearing (5.6%), and were observed more frequently after blade onychectomy (P < .001). Follow-up was available in 121 cats; 19.8% developed complications after release. Late postoperative complications included infection (11.6%), regrowth (7.4%), P2 protrusion (1.7%), palmagrade stance (1.7%), and prolonged, intermittent lameness (0.8%). Late postoperative complications were observed more frequently after shears onychectomy (P = .018). Use of tissue adhesive was associated with more postoperative lameness (P < .02) and, when used after shears onychectomy, with more infections (P = .049). I don't know what else to say, but I'm glad you're doing your research first, and I pray this kitty's toes are spared. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm We have a local vet who is doing laser surgery to sever the tendon that extends the claw. I've heard healing is much faster and is generally less traumatic for the cat. Don't have enough information to know whether this procedure is any better in the long run or not. I've never had a cat declawed but came very close with one. There was no getting him to use a scratching post no matter what we tried and he only dug into the brand new living room carpeting after we were asleep at night. If we stopped him from scratching his favorite spot he just moved onto a new one. I ended up confining him in a room without carpeting and gave him a bed to sleep in to keep him off the cold floor. He scratched the heck out of the door but it's cheaper to replace than the carpet. W >From: Mitch@hotmail.com >>If the choice is mutilating the cat or finding her another home, then >>absolutely find her another home. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >After all, animals are animals. Ah yes, they are animals. But they are also living breathing feeling beings that deserve to be treated respectfully. Declawing is 10 painful amputations of the last digit of each toe. Cats use their claws as a means of communication, much like we use our voices. A declawed cat is much like a person without a larynx. Comparing declawing to us having the ends of our fingers amputated is not actually completely accurate. The claw is harder to remove than the tip of our fingers because we don't retract our fingertips. Our fingertip is not set into the joint below in a complex way like a cat's claw is. Cutting out pieces of an animal's body for convenience is just wrong from all aspects. Cats actually walk on their first digit, which is the digit that is amputated. They can begin to walk incorrectly due to the amputation. Declawed cats can become fear biters. Cats first defense mechanism are their claws, when these are gone they bite. Biting can cause severe blood poisoning . Declawed cats can and do suffer behavioral disorders, such as not using the litter box due to discomfort in their feet, and may use the rest of the house as their litterbox. They also have trouble jumping and landing, and in some severe cases, both domestic and wild cats have become lame and even paralyzed upon being declawed. There are alternatives to declawing such as nail trimming. Nail trimming makes the nails blunt, so they do not puncture through materials, such as couches and furniture. Products such as Soft Paws, which are plastic nail covers, can prevent scratching and aide in proper training. Declawing is inhumane and painful to these animals. Animals are live sentient beings, not objects. A couch does not feel pain and will not notice the damage done to it. A cat surely will. "Cats have retractable nails, also known as "claws". Unlike most mammals who walk on the soles of the paws or feet, cats are digitigrade, which means they walk on their toes. Their back, shoulder and leg joints, muscles, tendons, ligaments and nerves are naturally designed to support and distribute the cat's weight across its toes as it walks, runs and climbs. A cat's claws are used for balance, for exercising, and for stretching the muscles in their legs, back, shoulders, and paws. They stretch these muscles by digging their claws into a surface and pulling back against their own clawhold - similar to isometric exercising for humans. This is the only way a cat can exercise, stretch and tone the muscles of its back and shoulders. The toes cause the foot to meet the ground at a precise angle to keep the leg, shoulder and back muscles and joints in proper alignment. Removal of the last digits of the toes causes the foot to meet the ground at an unnatural angle that can cause back pain similar to that in humans caused by wearing improper shoes. " "Contrary to most people's idea of declawing, surgery involves severing not just the claws, but whole phalanges (up to the joint), including bone, ligaments, and tendons! Complications of this amputation can be excruciating pain, damage to the radial nerve, hemorrhage, bone chips that prevent healing, painful regrowth of deformed claw inside of the paw, and chronic back and joint pain as shoulder, leg and back muscles weaken. Many cats also suffer a loss of balance since they can no longer achieve a secure foothold on their stumps. " "Some cats are so shocked by declawing that their personalities change. In some cases, when declawed cats use the litterbox after surgery, their feet are so tender they associate their new pain with the box...permanently. Others that can no longer mark with their claws, they mark with urine instead. Many declawed cats become so traumatized by this painful mutilation that they end up spending their maladjusted lives perched on top of doors and refrigerators, out of reach of real and imaginary predators against whom they no longer have any adequate defense. A cat relies on its claws as its primary means of defense. Removing the claws makes a cat feel defenseless and it can either become very defensive and resort to biting, or withdrawn and paranoid. They not only lose their grip, but also their grip on reality, seeming unable to concentrate on much beyond the loss of their claws, their vulnerability and confusion as to what has happened to them. " Yes, there are many things that can be done. First off, always play with the cat with toys, not your fingers. You can get your cat a tall sturdy scratching post with sisal rope. I also have cardboard scratching pads too as some cats are horizontal scratchers. You can clip the claws blunt. I use a cat scissors made by Four Paws and it works very well. I find the best time to trim claws is when the cat is sleepy, that way he is less likely to protest. The first time you trim the claws, you may want to have your vet or vet tech show you how. To trim a cat's claws, place her or him on a table or on your lap, and facing away from you. Lift one of the legs so that the lower part of the leg rests in your upturned fingers. Holding the leg securely but non-threateningly between the heel of your thumb and the tips of your middle, ring, and little fingers, grasp the paw between your thumb and forefinger. Press down gently on top of the paw with your thumb, spreading the toes and extending the claws. Check each claw individually. Do not trim blunt or rounded claws. If the nail is honed to a talon-like point, clip it. Be careful to clip the hooked part of the claw only. Avoid cutting into the pink tissue visible inside the nail. Dr. Nicholas Dodman, Professor of Behavioral Pharmacology and Director of the Behavior Clinic at Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine and internationally known specialist in domestic animal behavioral research, explains declawing: "The inhumanity of the procedure is clearly demonstrated by the nature of cats' recovery from anesthesia following the surgery. Unlike routine recoveries, including recovery from neutering surgeries, which are fairly peaceful, declawing surgery results in cats bouncing off the walls of the recovery cage because of excruciating pain. Cats that are more stoic huddle in the corner of the recovery cage, immobilized in a state of helplessness, presumably by overwhelming pain. Declawing fits the dictionary definition of mutilation to a tee. Words such as deform, disfigure, disjoint, and dismember all apply to this surgery. Partial digital amputation is so horrible that it has been employed for torture of prisoners of war, and in veterinary medicine, the clinical procedure serves as model of severe pain for testing the efficacy of analgesic drugs. Even though analgesic drugs can be used postoperatively, they rarely are, and their effects are incomplete and transient anyway, so sooner or later the pain will emerge." "Declawing, or onychectomy, is an amputation of the toe at the last joint. This removes the claw and the bone from which it originates. On a human hand this would be an amputation at the knuckle just above the nail. It is not just removal of the claw as many people think." Matthew J. Ehrenberg, DVM "It is serious surgery. Your cat's claw is not a toenail. It is actually closely adhered to the bone. So closely adhered that to remove the claw, the last bone of your the cat's claw has to be removed. Declawing is actually an amputation of the last joint of your cat's "toes". When you envision that, it becomes clear why declawing is not a humane act. It is a painful surgery, with a painful recovery period." Dr. Christianne Schelling, DVM "The amputation of the nail is accomplished with a guillotine nail cutter, which cuts across the first joint of the toe" Dr. Paul Rowan, DVM "Declawing (onchyectomy) is a surgical procedure that amputates the 3rd phalanx bone and claw of all ten front foot toes of a cat. This is comparable to the amputation of the last bone of each finger in the human hand." Dr. Jennifer Kissinger, DVM "The feline digit, just like the human digit (finger), possesses three phalanxes. When a cat is declawed it is the third or last phalanx, that is completely removed or amputated." Murphy Animal Hospital, Tampa, Florida "Declawing, or onychectomy, is the amputation of the claw and last bone (third phalanx) of the cat's toes at the first joint on the front feet. It's the equivalent of removing the last bone of all your fingers." Dr. Alice Crook, Head, Animal Welfare Unit at Atlantic Veterinary College, University of Prince Edward Island. "Declawing is the surgical amputation under general anesthesia of the last part of the toe - comparable to the removal of your fingertip at the first joint." Veterinary Information Network, Inc "The most common surgical procedure, onychectomy, or "declawing", is amputation of the claw and the end toe bone joint." The Cat Fanciers' Association "Declawing a cat involves general anesthesia and amputation of the last joint of each toe, including the bones, not just the nail." Doctors Who's Who, Inc. J Am Vet Med Assoc 1998 Aug 1;213(3):370-3412 Comparison of effects of elective tenectomy or onychectomy in cats. Jankowski AJ, Brown DC, Duval J, Gregor TP, Strine LE, Ksiazek LM, Ott AH Department of Clinical Studies, Veterinary Teaching Hospital, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Philadelphia 19104, USA. CLINICAL IMPLICATIONS: Owners should be aware of the high complication rate for both procedures. Vet Surg 1994 Jul-Aug;23(4):274-80 Feline onychectomy at a teaching institution: a retrospective study of 163 cases. Tobias KS Department of Veterinary Clinical Sciences, Washington State University College of Veterinary Medicine, Pullman 99164-6610. One hundred sixty-three cats underwent onychectomy from January 1985 to November 1992. Onychectomy was performed with guillotine-type nail shears (62%), surgical blade (24.5%), or both (8.6%), and wound closure consisted of bandages alone (61.3%), bandages after suture closure (26.4%), or tissue adhesive application (9.2%). The duration of surgery was significantly longer when onychectomy was performed with a blade or when suture closure was used instead of bandages alone (P < .05). Fifty percent of the cats had one or more complications immediately after surgery. Early postoperative complications included pain (38.1%), hemorrhage (31.9%), lameness (26.9%), swelling (6.3%), or non-weight-bearing (5.6%), and were observed more frequently after blade onychectomy (P < .001). Follow-up was available in 121 cats; 19.8% developed complications after release. Late postoperative complications included infection (11.6%), regrowth (7.4%), P2 protrusion (1.7%), palmagrade stance (1.7%), and prolonged, intermittent lameness (0.8%). Late postoperative complications were observed more frequently after shears onychectomy (P = .018). Use of tissue adhesive was associated with more postoperative lameness (P < .02) and, when used after shears onychectomy, with more infections (P = .049). I don't know what else to say, but I'm glad you're doing your research first, and I pray this kitty's toes are spared. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > We have a local vet who is doing laser surgery to sever the tendon that > extends the claw. I've heard healing is much faster and is generally less > traumatic for the cat. Don't have enough information to know whether this > procedure is any better in the long run or not. > > W This surgery has been getting a lot of attention. It may be slightly less painful, but it is still amputation -- and all of the other problems that Lauren described in her excellent post still exist. Personally, I think this surgery is simply being used because it may be somewhat more *palatable* to those who opt for it, and they avoid looking at the long-term damage (sort of like *burying their heads in the sand*). MaryL >> We have a local vet who is doing laser surgery to sever the tendon that >> extends the claw. I've heard healing is much faster and is generally less >> traumatic for the cat. Don't have enough information to know whether this >> procedure is any better in the long run or not. This is called a tendonectomy. This is also a cruel barbic procedure. What it does in essence is makes it impossible for the cat to retract or extend her claws. The claws will still need to be trimmed as they often can get caught in carpeting. I had some great information about it but unfortunately have just reformatted my hard drive so it's not available. A study published in 1998 in the Journal of the Veterinary Medical Association reported that while tendonectomy cats had lower post operative pain, both procedures showed an equal frequency of post-operative bleeding, lameness, and infection. Here's a bit more information on tendonectomy: http://www.helpinganimals.com/h-mut-declaw.html Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm HOLY COW! No freaking way I'm doing that to her! > HOLY COW! > > No freaking way I'm doing that to her! Good man! For some additional reinforcement, here are some illustrations to show you the hideous procedure you're sparing your cat from: http://www.maxshouse.com/anatomy/claws/Main_Graphic_Claws.jpg http://www.maxshouse.com/Declaw%20Pix/Claw-sur-dia-color.jpg http://www.maxshouse.com/anatomy/claws/Claws-w-nerves+ligaments.jpg http://www.maxshouse.com/anatomy/claws/Declaw%20Complications.jpg http://www.maxshouse.com/facts_about_declawing.htm Welcome to the rapidly growing list of Claw Conservatives! Phil How difficult is it to trim a cat's nails? Do they have blood vessels in them like a dog's? I watch her scratch the corner posts of our deck, and I picture that being the spindles of our stairs. Oy. Our whole house is custom wood. As far as training her, does it matter that she was feral until about 9 months old? I've got to make up my mind before the real cold comes. >From: Mitch@hotmail.com >How difficult is it to trim a cat's nails? >Do they have blood vessels in them like a dog's? Yes, they do have blood vessels like a dog, so you have to be careful not to cut into the pink part. I just trim the very tips of their claws. Now as to difficulty, of course if a person starts when the cat is a kitten it will be much easier. However, I don't think it's an impossibility with an older cat. What might be good is when kitty is sleepy, to gently massage her paws so she gets used to them being handled. Of course your situation is different because she's a feral. I'm sure those with more experience with ferals will offer advice. I know Megan, one of our regular posters (who by the way has an excellent website www.stopdeclaw.com - hope this is the right addy) has experience in this regard. Also, if worse comes to worse, you could always try one of those nylon bags that you put the cat in and extend one paw at a time. I do know a couple of people who've used it for ferals. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/Prod_Display.cfm?pcatid=3159&N=1+113 133&in_merch=1 >I watch her scratch the corner posts of our deck, and I picture that >being the spindles of our stairs. Oy. Our whole house is custom >wood. I think the trick here will be finding a nice scratching post that is more enticing to her than your staircase. If you're handy, you can even build one yourself. I know they also sell them that are made of wood. You could even maybe try a log. You will see on Megan's website that there are training methods. Good luck and please keep us posted on your progress or if you have any other questions. Kudos to you for caring enough about this kitty not to declaw her :) Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >Yes, they do have blood vessels like a dog, so you have to be careful not to >cut into the pink part. I just trim the very tips of their claws. That's what I do with Yoda. I just clip off the hooky part. That by itself really prevents the claw from getting snagged or the cat really doing damage. The others I don't clip at all. They just never need it. I don't know what Yoda's deal is. His claws get so long sometimes you can see them even when they are retracted, especially the back ones. Plus he has three that don't retract at all, he is a poly. We had to have one deformed claw removed. That alone was very traumatic ffor Yoda, and he favored that paw for a long time. I cannot imagine a cat having all of them removed. Sherry >From: sriddles@aol.comkitty (Sherry ) >I don't know what >Yoda's deal is. His claws get so long sometimes you can see them even when >they >are retracted, especially the back ones. Plus he has three that don't >retract >at all, he is a poly. I've never had a poly before. So none of the extra claws retract? Do you know if this is how all polys are? lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >I've never had a poly before. So none of the extra claws retract? Do you >know >if this is how all polys are? > >lauren I'm not sure about other polys. But Yoda has two extras on each paw, and none of them retract. The one we had removed wasn't a toe at all, just this little bump with a claw growing weirdly out of it, and it would grow back into the skin. The others have done OK all these years (he's nearly 11) without removiing them, but we have to remember to clip them or they also become ingrown and hang on things. Here's a pic of Yo-Man's toes. The one on the left, you can see the tuft of white hair where the old claw was, it grew sideways. The remaining 3 need to clipped in this pic, as you can see. http://www.members.aol.com/sriddles/toes.jpg http://www.members.aol.com/sriddles/toes2.jpg Sherry Sherry > >I've never had a poly before. So none of the extra claws retract? Do you > >know [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > I'm not sure about other polys. Some retract, some don't. It depends on how well developed the extra toes are. many times, they need to be removed because they are in a bad "spot" that causes sores on the paw, etc. -L. >From: sriddles@aol.comkitty (Sherry ) >Here's a pic of Yo-Man's toes. The one on the left, you can see the tuft of >white hair where the old claw was, it grew sideways. The remaining 3 need to >clipped in this pic, as you can see. >http://www.members.aol.com/sriddles/toes.jpg >http://www.members.aol.com/sriddles/toes2.jpg OMG, how cute! They look like little thumbs :) Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > How difficult is it to trim a cat's nails? Easy! The key is don't use too much restraint and don't make a big deal about it - cats pick up your anxiety. The best time to trim claws is when the cat just wakes up. > Do they have blood vessels in them like a dog's? Here's an actual photo of a cat's claw and the quick, and where to cut/ http://www.maxshouse.com/anatomy/claws/Claw-trim-quick-1.jpg Here are detailed instructions: http://www.maxshouse.com/Claw%20Trimming.htm > > How difficult is it to trim a cat's nails? > > Easy! The key is don't use too much restraint and don't make a big deal > about it - cats pick up your anxiety. The best time to trim claws is when > the cat just wakes up. I'll say. My aunt had a cat she insisted would not let anyone trim his claws. The poor guy's nails were starting to turn inward (back feet, old cat). She insisted that he bit if you tried. I went over to him, pet him, picked him up and plopped him in my lap like a baby, and clipped his claws. He never once tried to bite me. The less of a big deal it is to you, the less the cat thinks it is big deal. ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- > watch her scratch the corner posts of our deck, and I picture that >being the spindles of our stairs. Oy. Our whole house is custom >wood. > >As far as training her, does it matter that she was feral until about >9 months old? Probably not. We recently adopted a stray cat that we literally found on our doorstep. Although she was not feral, she was obviously accustomed to being an indoor/outdoor cat and had never been trained to scratch appropriately. She had also never had her claws trimmed (she is estimated to be about two years old). It only took a few days to teach her to scratch on the various scratching posts we have around the house for our other cats. As for claw trimming, the first try was a bit of a battle, mostly because she doesn't like to be restrained, but each time it got easier and now she accepts it peacefully. So yes, it can be done even if the cat is an adult and has not been trained or had regular claw clipping before. > How difficult is it to trim a cat's nails? > Do they have blood vessels in them like a dog's? ...> As far as training her, does it matter that she was feral until about > 9 months old? ... Mitch, Some cats will cooperate for nail trimming and some won't. Our Cinder will let the vet clip her claws, but she will not let us clip them. Fortunately, she claws where she is supposed to claw. She likes both horizontal and vertical surfaces, so we provide plenty of opportunities for her. Occasionally, she will make some motions on the back of one of the couches, but we put double sticky tape that is made to deter scratching those places, and she forgets about it. We also have some minor scratches on a leather couch where her back claws propelled her when she ran across it. We just put a decorative throw over it, and she runs over the throw. Our furniture is about eight years old, and except for the couple of minor scratches, the upholstery looks fine. If Cinder would let us clip her claws, we would have not damage at all. I would say that we have caused as much or more wear on our furniture as the cats we've had throughout the years. Of course, we shed less. We have had several cats and none has scratched wood furniture. We did bring in a small log and set it up in a base for one of our indoor-outdoor cats. As for feral part, Rosie was wild and seven months old when I trapped her and brought her inside. I know that she had never been in a home or touched by human hands. Yet, she used the litter box from the very first day. She uses a sisal scratching post. When she was in taming and allowed out of the taming room and within reach of upholstered furniture, she tried out the chair a couple of times. I just told her "no" and she stopped. She is so careful with her claws that I have never even tried to clip them. There is no reason to do so. Before you bring this cat inside, you need to examine your own commitment. Once she is in, she will not have the opportunity to grow a winter coat and you will not be able to turn her out. Also, if you declaw her, you will definitely not be able to turn her out. Whatever you decide about bringing her inside, you should have her spayed and vaccinated and treated for parasites. Good luck with your endeavor. Annie >How difficult is it to trim a cat's nails? >Do they have blood vessels in them like a dog's? It isn't hard if the cat is cooperative. It is best to start when it is a kitten and less likely to struggle. Scissors or ordinary toenail clippers are awkward in use. The clippers you can buy from a pet store are better. Cats' claws have fleshy centers that you can see if you look carefully. If you cut into the quick it is painful and bloody, and the cat will be less cooperative the next time. A cat is less likely to sharpen its claws on the furniture or carpet when you keep its claws trimmed. When the claws grow out it triggers the scratching behavior. When the cat scratches it sheds the outer layer of the keratin that forms the claw. Cats also scratch to mark their territory. Even declawed cats will "scratch". Training a cat to use a scratching post is not hard. When the fog came in on little cat feet last night, it left these little muddy paw prints on the hood of my car. > How difficult is it to trim a cat's nails? > Do they have blood vessels in them like a dog's? Yes but they are extremely easy to trim. I cut my cats nails SHORT. > I watch her scratch the corner posts of our deck, and I picture that > being the spindles of our stairs. Oy. Our whole house is custom > wood. A cat TREE - not a post, will help to prevent this. > As far as training her, does it matter that she was feral until about > 9 months old? > > I've got to make up my mind before the real cold comes. Well, IMO and IME, it is easy to make an outdoor-only cat indoor-outdoor, but nearly impossible to make them indoor-only. Some people can and do, but many times it takes persistence and dedication that many people don't have. An unhappy cat will eliminate inappropriately - and I have found this to be common with outdoor-onlys who are made indoor-onlys. If it were my cat, and she was happy outdoors, and I could provide heated shelter for her during the winter, I'd be very reluctant to try the transition. But that's just MO - take it or leave it. And, BTW - thanks for understanding the seriousness of declawing - it is nothing to take lightly. -L. >Well, IMO and IME, it is easy to make an >outdoor-only cat indoor-outdoor, but >nearly impossible to make them >indoor-only. I completely disagree. A good number of my cats were outdoors/feral and in the same situation as the cat described, as are some of the rescues I've found homes for. I have *never* had difficulty making them indoor only cats. Generally speaking, formerly outdoor/feral cats rarely show any interest in going outside once they get a taste of what it's like to be safe, warm, well-fed and loved. >Some people can and do, but many >times it takes persistence and dedication >that many people don't have. Again, I disagree. It doesn't take much to keep the door closed, provide window seats and a cat tree, etc., and give the cat other things to do. Once in awhile you may have a cat that becomes vocal when first brought indoors, but ignoring the behavior and distracting the cat with play is effective and it usually takes no more than a few days for the cat to settle down. >An unhappy cat will eliminate >inappropriately - and I have found this to >be common with outdoor-onlys who are >made indoor-onlys. Here I have to vehemently disagree. I have *never* had a formerly outdoor/feral cat exhibit innapropriate elimination, or seen it happen with the formerly outdoor rescues that have been rehomed. If anything, they have been perfect in their litterbox habits and very fastidious when it comes to covering their waste in the litterbox. >If it were my cat, and she was happy >outdoors, and I could provide heated >shelter for her during the winter, I'd be >very reluctant to try the transition. But >that's just MO - take it or leave it. I'm really disappointed that you have chosen to abandon advocating for the *best* situation for this cat. She's socialized and agreeable enough to the OP, and she has a chance at a safe indoor home. I don't see any reason not to give her exactly that. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > >Well, IMO and IME, it is easy to make an > >outdoor-only cat indoor-outdoor, but [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > - W.H. Murray This summer I took in 2 stray cats to be indoor kitties (one that was a stray and one that was more feral) that I'd been feeding in my backyard since several months; I already had 3 cats in the household (actually 4, but one passed away at age 17 early in the summer). I have tall several sisal scratching posts and a cat tree that provide great scratching opportunities. Neither of these 2 were hard to train either to use the scratching post or to use the litter box. They definitely liked the sisal rope to sharpen their claws on. I either put a tiny bit of catnip on the posts to attract them or I dangled a cat toy or string onto the posts so they would have to stretch and feel the posts to get the toy. (Petsmart actually has a great selection of cat posts and trees by a company called "Cats are In," by the way.) The litterbox wasn't a problem either. Just to reassure you. And also of the 3 that were already exisiting in the household previously, two of those were rescued strays also -- also no problems with introducing the scratching posts/litterboxes. The one cat that seemed to want to use the furniture is the one that I got from Petsmart, so go figure that; however, I got him one of those cardboard Turboscratchers (also from Petsmart) sprinkled some catnip on that and he now uses that. Sometimes we're the best hope for a chance at happiness for one of these strays and I can say from personal experience, investing the time and patience into bringing one of these little guys inside is truly worthwhile. Best wishes to you! Christine Burel P.S. to my previous post, Mitch. I did get a great deal of assistance in integrating my 2 summer strays, Tucker and Robin, online from a member of this newsgroup If you'd like to email me privately, I can give you details if you'd like. You can see the furry ones at my yahoo album at: http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/cfbureltoo Regards, Christine B. > > >Well, IMO and IME, it is easy to make an > > >outdoor-only cat indoor-outdoor, but [quoted text clipped - 63 lines] > > > > - W.H. Murray > This summer I took in 2 stray cats to be indoor kitties (one that was a > stray and one that was more feral) that I'd been feeding in my backyard [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > Christine Burel >> I'm really disappointed that you have chosen to abandon advocating for > the *best* situation for this cat. She's socialized and agreeable > enough to the OP, and she has a chance at a safe indoor home. I don't > see any reason not to give her exactly that. > > Megan Hi Megan , It seems to me that what is *best* for the cat depends on who's posting the reply ! *Why* does the cat have to permanently indoors or permanently outdoors? This cat has successfully lived out side , there's no need to make it stay in permanently. The happiness of an indoor cat depends very much on the owners knowledge and commitment and many indoor cats end up in shelters *because* of their behaviour problems. Will the OP be able to make the commitment an indoor cat needs or will it all end in tears? Alison > >> I'm really disappointed that you have chosen to abandon advocating > for [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > the commitment an indoor cat needs or will it all end in tears? > Alison Indoor cats generally live much longer and healthier lives, at least in the U.S. It's true that this cat has lived outdoors for two years, and many others have lived far longer outdoors. However, outdoor cats frequently die on the road (or, worse, are badly injured and crawl away to die), suffer wounds in cat fights, may injest toxic poisons (either deliberate or accidental, as with antifreeze), etc. If you have read other messages on this newsgroup, you may also be aware that neighbors often object to having cats on their property. MaryL (take out the litter to reply) Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'< http://tinyurl.com/8y54 (Introducing Duffy to Holly) http://tinyurl.com/8y56 (Duffy and Holly "settle in") >Will the OP be able to make the >commitment an indoor cat needs or will it >all end in tears? This was really unnecessary, and I don't appreciate you exaggerating as though keeping the cat indoors could lead to some sort of emotional devastation. It's a crock and you certainly are NOT being helpful when it comes to this cat getting a permanent home when you spend your whole post criticizing keeping the cat indoors yet did not bother to add one word to the OP about what could be done to make a happy cat. I also never said it was either/or. I was relating my experience about making outdoor cats indoor cats and addressing the OP's question about whether it's possible. Contrary to the idyllic portrait of outdoor life for cats in the UK you and a few others might like to paint, your cats suffer road accidents, the wrath of neighbors, etc. when you allow them to roam free. The US cannot be compared to the UK in this regard as things are very different here. For one thing, many cities have leash laws and nuisance laws, and there are some cities that have implemented programs to trap and destroy free roaming cats. There are cars, dogs, predators such as coyotes, cruel people and many other risks associated with letting cats outdoors. There is also the neighbor issue and we've seen time and time again complaints posted here about cats sh.tting in neighbors' gardens and walking on peoples' cars, spraying on peoples' doors/windows, etc. All are unwanted and uninvited behaviors that neighbors are unnecessarily subjected to because thoughtless people let their cats roam at will. You've been on this group long enough to see the numerous posts about tragedies that have befallen cats and the discord their being allowed to roam at will can create, so don't try to plead ignorance. If the OP has a fenced in yard he can catproof to make sure the cat can't get out and other animals/people can't get in I don't see a problem with allowing the cat out that way. Leash training so he can take the cat out for walks is another option. Allowing the cat to roam at will is neither safe nor is it courteous to others, and is in many instances illegal. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray I agree. I live in a townhome complex that has had to put in strict rules about letting animals run free. I do have 2 neighbors who let their cats out but only when they are home to watch them. I never did this with Natasha because she was like a streak of lightening when she didn't want to get caught and I was always afraid she might get lost. > From: zuzu22@webtv.net > Organization: WebTV Subscriber [quoted text clipped - 66 lines] > > - W.H. Murray > >Will the OP be able to make the > >commitment an indoor cat needs or will it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > though keeping the cat indoors could lead to some sort of emotional > devastation. Sorry I didn't mean it sound facetious , I just trying to discuss with out it getting heavy , though don't you think I have a point about the commitment . As I said in my post , it depends very much on the owner and I think the OP said he wasn't that fond of cats . Keeping a cat indoors doesn't necessarily make you a good cat owner anymore than letting a cat out makes you a bad one. You get good and bad owners per se. AFAIK, He has given you all no clues to where he lives or what type of area it is , his neighbours let their cats out. It is not exaggerating to say that indoor cats *can* suffer problems and end up in shelters, because they do. I didn't use the words emotional devastaion . >It's a crock and you certainly are NOT being helpful when > it comes to this cat getting a permanent home when you spend your whole [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > outdoor cats indoor cats and addressing the OP's question about whether > it's possible. I was under the impression it *did* have a permanent home but it lives outside. I haven't given any info about keepng a cat happy indoors, in this case because I feel there is no need to keep the cat in . Giving advice on keeping an indoor cat happy can ,and perhaps should , be given by those who insist it stays in, just as I've given suggestions and advice to people who want to let their cat out . In other posts and on other forums I've given links to people who can't let their cat out and have problems with them . I've also given links to someone on this thread about scratching the furniture. I did in fact ask on this group about cats humping towels (indoor cats) this was a problem on another forum and I didn't know how to reply . I didn't get much response so either people didn't know or they didn't answer because I'm in their kill files. > Contrary to the idyllic portrait of outdoor life for cats in the UK you > and a few others might like to paint, your cats suffer road accidents, > the wrath of neighbors, etc. when you allow them to roam free. > The US cannot be compared to the UK in this regard as things are very > different here. That's sounds like a contradiction to me. That last sentence works both ways too. The Americans in some groups are very quick to jump on UK people for letting their cats out when things like rabies and tick born diseases don't apply . Have I painted and idlyic life and never mentioned dangers at all? I'm sure I've said the biggest danger to cats in the Uk is traffic and I'm not the only Uker to say this . In many cases , yes it is an idylic life. But I have always said that it is up to each owner to evaluate the risks and make a decision. I'm not ignoring the risks . [..] >>. You've been on this group long enough to see the numerous > posts about tragedies that have befallen cats and the discord their > being allowed to roam at will can create, so don't try to plead > ignorance. Yes I know , I've been reading and studying cat groups for several years . But how much of this is relevent to the OP? I *do* appreciate the dangers, much more so than when I first started posting . The problem is that in this type of thread , in other foums as well , the views are very one sided and I try to redress the balance and then it makes *me* look onesided and biased. I am biased towards keeping cats out, but I am not totally fanatical about it and I don't insist "you must let them out." To me insisting that every cat must be kept in and indeed, suggesting to someone to take a cat simply because its owners let it out and therefore a bad owner is fanatical. It seems to me that people repeat things they've read with out checking out the information because they want to believe it . It's hard to get facts and figure that agree , they can also distorted . Just as you (one)paint the dangers of outdoor life , you(one) also idylise the indoor life style of a cat . What *I* see is in newsgroups and forums is indoor cats being declawed , being shouted at , sprayed with water and even vinegar , shock collars (IV), drugged with valium , talk of disciplining and punishment . I saw a thread on a forum , "How do you discipline your cat " of all things. I get this mental picture of people dressing up in leather carrying whips ! I should think some outdoor and UK owners do some of this too but it's the acceptence of it as being a normal every day thing to do that I find strange and upsetting . I hope that makes sense. I've notice that there has been a change since I started reading this group and more people have started to say don't punish etc . If you read back through my previous posts , I've always tried to give advice on how to deal with problems without resorting to this . > If the OP has a fenced in yard he can catproof to make sure the cat > can't get out and other animals/people can't get in I don't see a > problem with allowing the cat out that way. Leash training so he can > take the cat out for walks is another option. Yes and I've always suggested that myself . I have links on my website about fencing and I suggest to people that they read Karen Pryors clicker training book on how to teach their cat to leash walk and also how to train it to come to you and be picked up instead of panicking and trying to runaway if something frightens it .The walking jackets on the website look good >>Allowing the cat to roam at will is neither safe nor is it courteous to others, and is in many instances illegal.>>> This is a blanket statement, again, every situation is different. It's not that simple to say every cat must be kept in . I'm sorry I'm pissing you but I'm not just mouthing off for the sake of it. I strongly support you in anti -declawing and will contiue to do so, if you want to kill file me ot have a go at me do so but I also feel strongly about this and will continue to post about it. Alison > Megan > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > - W.H. Murray > > As far as training her, does it matter that she was feral until about > > 9 months old? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > -L. My very first cat (many years ago) was feral. I lived in a busy area of town at that time, so it was essential -- for my new cat's safety -- that I train the cat to be indoor-only. As it turns out, it wasn't difficult. It did take a considerable amount of time for the "bonding" process because the cat was feral, but he eventually became a truly loving companion. As far as indoor-only "training" was concerned, there was no real difficulty. I had to watch him closely for awhile because he would head for the door. I would back out and lean down to place my hand in his way if he tried to exit. As time went by, he showed less and less interest in "the great outdoors." Eventually, I could stand with the door wide-open and he would ignore it. I never punished him. During the training period, I would simply say "no" gently and place my hand in his path if he started through the door. Incidentally, I eventually trained him to walk on a harness and leash, and then I would sometimes go for walks with him. Actually, he took me for walks because I would follow along wherever he wanted to go. I got some very strange looks when people saw me "walking" my cat, but I also struck up some new friendships that way. As for scratching posts: he took to them instantly. It almost seemed like "second nature" for him to scratch on the posts I provided. He especially liked sisal, but he also shredded several carpet-covered posts. My furniture remained completely intact and unscratched. MaryL (take out the litter to reply) Photos of Duffy and Holly: >'o'< http://tinyurl.com/8y54 (Introducing Duffy to Holly) http://tinyurl.com/8y56 (Duffy and Holly "settle in") > My very first cat (many years ago) was feral. I lived in a busy > area of town at that time, so it was essential -- for my new cat's [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > carpet-covered posts. My furniture remained completely intact and > unscratched. I'm going to have to add a "me too" to this thread. 3 stray/feral cats recently have become indoor cats from my neighborhood and all 3 had no problem adapting to indoors, litterboxes, scratching posts, and other cats. Canned food, well that's a different story. ;) > How difficult is it to trim a cat's nails? > Do they have blood vessels in them like a dog's? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I've got to make up my mind before the real cold comes. Why don't you get cat trees. Sounds like you can afford them. You could also make or buy one for the deck. A friend of mine who lives in a rural area did that for their old mostly outdoor tom cat who was scratching the deck posts. He uses it with more delight than the deck posts now. My cats use theirs with gusto. They are totally indoors. Karen Karen >Why don't you get cat trees. Sounds like you can afford them. You could also >make or buy one for the deck. A friend of mine who lives in a rural area did [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >Karen Sometimes that still doesn't work. We have two cats in our family, the oldest we've had 2 years, the youngest, 6 months. They are in-out; spending about half their days outside. When they come in, the youngest proceeds to shred everything in sight. We've got a huge cat tree and multiple posts, doesn't seem to matter. While the young cat will use the tree and posts, she prefers expensive furniture. She has personally ruined $1500.00 worth of furniture so far and she shows no sign of letting up. We've tried spray bottles, Feliway, putting her on her post when she scratches, having her nails trimmed, etc. I'm really trying to be patient, I don't believe in declawing, but my patience is wearing thin. If I have to go out and buy another $2000.00 couch, either the cat is going to the shelter or she is going to get declawed, as much as I hate to make that decision. > Sometimes that still doesn't work. We > have two cats in our family, the oldest [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > ruined $1500.00 worth of furniture so > far and she shows no sign of letting up. If this is true, you have noone to blame but yourself. It is a relatively simple thing to make the furniture temporarily unattractive to scratch by using covers or double sided sticky tape until the KITTEN is using the posts exclusively. > We've tried spray bottles, Feliway, > putting her on her post when she > scratches, having her nails trimmed, > etc. She's a 6 month old KITTEN. They have a wild stage which they grow out of, but she is at a good age where getting her to use only the scratching posts is very easy. As you have found out, squirting doesn't work. If you are angry when you take her away from what she is scratching and put her on the post she can't tell the difference and will assocate the anger with the post. Using fear to try to train is ineffective. Positive reinforcement is the best way to get a cat to do what you want. Make the furniture unappealing for awhile and consistently redirect her attention to appropriate scratching surfaces in a *positive* manner using lots of praise and your problem is solved. You can also use a product called softpaws, which are plastic nailcaps that will stop any damage from occurring while you are training, then regular trimming after that. It would also be wise for you to give her some things to scratch that mimic the surface of the furniture. It's obvious there's something about that texture she really likes, so give her something *of her own* that is the same or similar. If you don't find something available for purchase, it is relatively easy to make something yourself. >I'm really trying to be patient, I > don't believe in declawing, but my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > or she is going to get declawed, as much > as I hate to make that decision. Dumping the cat at a shelter or mutilating her for your convenience are both cruel choices. Being gentle, patient and consistent with this KITTEN will be effective. Stop being so angry about a behavior that is natural to all cats and focus on making this kitten feel really happy when she scratches the *right* things. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >She's a 6 month old KITTEN. They have a wild stage which they grow out >of, No, she's not. I didn't say she was 6 months old, I said we've had her for 6 months. She's actually a year and a half old, our other cat is two years old. That's why it's so frustrating, she's no longer a kitten. It's not just one piece of furniture she finds attractive either, it's ALL furniture. She has shredded chairs, couches, futons, ottomans, carpets, rugs, and for some odd reason, the closet door. Our other cat learned very fast and won't touch anything, this one just seems slow in the head. I'll hear her scratching the couch and I'll spray her with the water bottle. She'll slink away but as soon as I walk away she'll immediately go back to scratching the same couch or whatever it was she was scratching. She knows she's doing something wrong, I can tell by the way she crouches and slinks away when I catch her scratching something. As soon as I'm out of the room, though, yahoo! This doesn't bode well. Mitch wrote: >This doesn't bode well. What doesn't bode well? It would be helpful if you included what you were responding to so we know what you are talking about. As far as bringing in the cat, I'm sure she'll be fine. I have 25 cats and furniture that is in perfect condition and I have *never* not once ever ever ever had to train any of the ferals to use a scratching post. They always have found them right away and used them exclusively. There are many people on this newsgroup that have brought in cats like yours and have had no problems. I wish you'd stop with this really *unnecessary* worrying and start working on bringing her inside. :-) Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray Wow...I just got off the phone with my neighbor. She's watched this situation unfold ever since the cat first showed up. She has always had her cats declawed, and she's owned many cats. When I told her about the things I'd discovered about the procedure, her exact words were "Who gives a sh.t? It's a cat." She feels it's a small price for the cat to pay in exchange for getting "the good life" afterwards. I'm still floored by the attitude. > Wow...I just got off the phone with my neighbor. She's watched this > situation unfold ever since the cat first showed up. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'm still floored by the attitude. Not to worry. There is a special place in hell for people like your neighbors. It has lots of REALLY BIG cats who do anything they want to little tiny cat-hurting humans. When some of the nicer cats object, the meaner ones say "Who gives a sh.t? It's a human." :-) > Wow...I just got off the phone with my neighbor. She's watched this > situation unfold ever since the cat first showed up. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I'm still floored by the attitude. Well, now, you can't blame the mentally defective for being dense. It's just who they are. Can't blame a skunk for the smell. I hope her next life gets her reincarnated as a P&G test subject, though, just for Karma. Hey, just a kitten getting tortured for the good of Man, right? (sorry, I'm in one of those moods *hehe*) Honestly, I will never understand how someone can shrug off an animal's suffering like that. I hope I never do. ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- >From: Mitch@hotmail.com >Wow...I just got off the phone with my neighbor. She's watched this >situation unfold ever since the cat first showed up. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >I'm still floored by the attitude. Ugh :( Some good life :( ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > This doesn't bode well. For your poor cat, no doubt. Sounds to me like you have already made up your mind to mutilate your cat. Why waste our time? >For your poor cat, no doubt. Sounds to me like you have already made >up your mind to mutilate your cat. Why waste our time? That was pretty uncool. > >For your poor cat, no doubt. Sounds to me like you have already made > >up your mind to mutilate your cat. Why waste our time? > > That was pretty uncool. We calls 'em like we sees em. "Mary" <rosefan@email.com> wrote in news:hNTpb.63849$fl1.2650059 @twister.southeast.rr.com: >> >For your poor cat, no doubt. Sounds to me like you have already > made [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> > We calls 'em like we sees em. Uh, admittedly I'm just a lurker who hasn't read every message in this thread, but I thought "Mitch@hotmail.com" had decided not to declaw. Was there a post in this thread that indicated otherwise? If you "calls 'em like [you] see 'em," what do you see that I don't? > She knows she's doing > something wrong, I can tell by the way she crouches and slinks away > when I catch her scratching something. No, she knows you're angry. She's not a human, she's a cat. She sees you mad, she slinks and responds to that, not because she knows she did something "wrong". There is no "wrong" to a cat. Only what is more or less desirable because of either praise or negative associations. Those negative associations means that when she scratches and you catch her, you're going to squirt her. That is why she slinks. Same for dogs, BTW. I've heard so many people say that the dog knew it shouldn't have chewed something because it cowered when discovered. The dog is responding to the body language, not the deed. > As soon as I'm out of the > room, though, yahoo! Then perhaps you should make her not want to scratch regardless of whether you are in the room. Sticky tape, citrus scents (I use lemon-scented pledge and spray a little on my furniture weekly), and remote things, such as those noisemakers that go off when motion is detected, blown-up balloons taped to the surface, or the COVERED moustrap-like things that snap and startle (they are often sold as deterrents for a garbage diving dog) when touched work well as deterrents. Praise, catnip, toys, playing with her near and on her things, putting treats there, etc work well to give her positive feelings about her post and tree. If she likes dangling toys, clip some on - my Jeffrey, whom I got when he was 2, responded very well to this. My cats also like catnip, so their posts are bathed in it weekly. :) The cat must decide she prefers her things to yours. Not that she fears getting caught doing something. If she knows her things rock and yours suck, she'll choose hers whether you are there or not. Also, kind of a rhetorical question...if your child were mentally handicapped and never learned that it was a bad thing to destroy furniture, would you cut off their hands? Sure, cats aren't people, but it's still not okay to mutilate them because YOU can't teach them due to a lack of knowledge, desire, patience, means, or whatever. If your dog kept eating the couch, would you have its teeth removed or would you train it to chew appropriate objects no matter what it took? Would you hire a behaviorist or a trainer to help you if you couldn't seem to get it? Or would you say it's just a dog and dump it at a shelter? ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- >Also, kind of a rhetorical question...if your child were mentally >handicapped and never learned that it was a bad thing to destroy >furniture, would you cut off their hands? No, but I'd sure as hell keep a water bottle handy to spray him in the face when he screwed with my furniture. ;-) Actually I don't have kids nor do my wife and I plan to have any, our cats are our kids. As for the dog analogies, yes, I could get rid of a dog if it couldn't learn to stop chewing on stuff. Dogs are easier to train, however, those nasty little shock collars seem to do wonders. > No, but I'd sure as hell keep a water bottle handy to spray him in the > face when he screwed with my furniture. ;-) Actually I don't have > kids nor do my wife and I plan to have any, our cats are our kids. As > for the dog analogies, yes, I could get rid of a dog if it couldn't > learn to stop chewing on stuff. Dogs are easier to train, however, > those nasty little shock collars seem to do wonders. Yeah, gotta hand it to fear and pain as training tools. They work great. Make that animal fear you! Then they'll listen. That's why all the police dogs, guide dogs, SAR dogs, and therapy dogs are trained using pain and punishment. Oh, wait... ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- >From: kaeli tiny_one@NOSPAM.comcast.net > Praise, catnip, toys, playing with >her near and on her things, putting treats there, etc work well to give >her positive feelings about her post and tree. When my cats were young, I would play with them with their feather on a stick toy on the scratching post. Worked like a charm. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >From: James Janko James87@hotmail.com >>She's a 6 month old KITTEN. They have a wild stage which they grow out >>of, [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >when I catch her scratching something. As soon as I'm out of the >room, though, yahoo! Do what Megan told you to do, i.e. cover the couch while you're training her, and as she explained, negative reinforcement does not work. Her slinking only indicates that she is reacting to your negative reinforcement. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: James Janko James87@hotmail.com > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > and as she explained, negative reinforcement does not work. Her slinking only > indicates that she is reacting to your negative reinforcement. I am totally amazed at how much praise can affect a cat! It is like it helps you bond with them emotionally. I call it "talking stupid" because it sounds so dumb. I have rarely heard a man do it the way they like it. The vet said to make your voice pleasing and velvety, almost like a purr. I tell Cheeks "Gooooooooooooooooooooooood Girrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrlll, gooooooooooooooooood girrrllllllllllllll, look at the beautiful little girrrrrrrrllllll, ohhh she's so gooooooood and fine" while petting her. I sound like an idiot but she absolutely blooms. :0) >From: "Mary" rosefan@email.com >> >From: James Janko James87@hotmail.com >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] >gooooooood and fine" while petting her. I sound like an idiot but she >absolutely blooms. :0) Well if you sound like an idiot, I must be one too :) ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: "Mary" rosefan@email.com > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Well if you sound like an idiot, I must be one too :) Fun, innit? She talks to me too. I love when she runs by and gives me a little chirp. Like, "Just me, carry on!" Or the sound when I was losing some skin trying to get her into the carrier for the vet. The kitty equivalent of "Noooooooooooo WAYYYYYY!" Or the annoyed sound when she is being a pill and I want to pet her. The close-lipped, between the teeth, very low volume but high-pitched "mmmmmm ...." > Fun, innit? She talks to me too. I love when she runs by and gives me > a little [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > teeth, > very low volume but high-pitched "mmmmmm ...." My cats love to just follow me around the house, talking to me. I talk back, of course, which encourages them. hehe What's scary is that this can be the best conversation I have all day. *g* ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- |
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