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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / November 2003Is this FIP or something else
Hi, One of my family cats has been ill for about 5 weeks. The symptoms are rather vague, lethargy, poor balance (she doesn't fall over but her walking looks abnormal), sleeping in odd places and generally hiding away from people (she's slept in the same spot for the 5 years we've had her). She is eating and drinking normally, but she likes to have the bowls on a thick book so she doesn't have to bend her head down. She hasn't lost any weight, her eyes are bright and clear with no signs of jaundice or anaemia. She has a nystagmus (constantly darting from left to right)in her right eye with brown flecks and a different size pupil from the other. But she had these when we got her (when she was 2 1/2) and it hasn't changed, we always assumed it was some kind of trauma. Apart from a nasty infection about 18 months ago (again non-specific symptoms, just lethargy, disinterest in food & water and a very high temperature), which cleared with antibiotics she has previously been in good health with no visits to the vet. The other two cats in the house have also always been in good health (one of which is her brother from the same litter. After one vet said it was a psychological problem another vet has decided it is likely its FIP. But these symptoms are so vague and she doesn't show a large portion of the classic wet or dry FIP symptoms. There was no gastrointestinal infection with vomiting or diarrhoea. No fever. No abdominal or chest fluid accumulation. No changes in the eyes. Although she is showing some neurological signs. From looking at her history and currnet symptoms does anyone have any ideas as to what this might be? She has always had the Nobivac Tricat vaccination until after the infection which the vet thought might have been leukaemia. So last year we started the leukaemia virus vaccine too. She was vaccinated about 3-4 weeks before this episode started. Could this possibly be some reaction due to the secondary exposure to an antigen in the vaccine? We'd be very grateful for any ideas anyone might have. Thanks, Christina > After one vet said it was a psychological problem another vet has > decided it is likely its FIP. But these symptoms are so vague and she [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > possibly be some reaction due to the secondary exposure to an antigen > in the vaccine? We'd be very grateful for any ideas anyone might have. It could be a lot of things, and I doubt it is FIP. It could be a neurological problem, a reaction to the vaccine, FLV itself (vaccine prevents 85% only and does not cure), FVR (herpes), or any number of problems or combination of problems. The only sure way to diagnose FIP is through biopsy or necropsy. FIP is also often a fall-back diagnosis when a vet has no clue what the problem actually is. FVR can cause eye problems and can recur (like outbreaks) throughout the cat's life. Neurological problems could cause the eye problem, lack of balance, and desire to eat without bending over. An old injury might be flaring up for some reason. Because she is eating and drinking, my guess is something neurologic. The other diseases and viruses generally make cats not want to eat or drink. IANAV, so I'd take this cat to another vet or two for further tests and second and third opinions. ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- > > After one vet said it was a psychological problem another vet has > > decided it is likely its FIP. But these symptoms are so vague and she [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > possibly be some reaction due to the secondary exposure to an antigen > > in the vaccine? We'd be very grateful for any ideas anyone might have. after stress, or any change to the immune system a cat with FIP can get poorly > It could be a lot of things, and I doubt it is FIP. I am sorry to say this but it does sound like FIP to me, I hope to god its not! the cat should of had blood tests done to check its titre level > It could be a neurological problem, a reaction to the vaccine, FLV > itself (vaccine prevents 85% only and does not cure), FVR (herpes), or [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > also often a fall-back diagnosis when a vet has no clue what the problem > actually is. that's terrible because FIP leads to death in most cases, so they are telling people their cat s going to die, if it doesn't shed it! > FVR can cause eye problems and can recur (like outbreaks) throughout the > cat's life. Neurological problems could cause the eye problem, lack of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > drink. IANAV, so I'd take this cat to another vet or two for further > tests and second and third opinions. but the way the cat wont eat unless it dish is raised? its obviously having problems, cats with FIP seem to hang over their bowl of water, sometimes just resting their mouths in the water. after they swallow they sit very up right as if it hard for them to digest the food. Before taking my food. I really hope you are right Kaeli, FIP is so nasty :-( > > It could be a lot of things, and I doubt it is FIP. > > I am sorry to say this but it does sound like FIP to me, I hope to god its > not! > the cat should of had blood tests done to check its titre level I hope not, too. This cat seems to be eating fine (that is, she wants to eat) and has no jaundice or anemia, which was what made me think no... But the dry form can be insidious, so I hope I'm right on this one and it's something treatable. Someday they'll come up with a treatment for FIP. *hopeful look* ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- > > > It could be a lot of things, and I doubt it is FIP. > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Someday they'll come up with a treatment for FIP. *hopeful look* send me an email soozy@totalise.co.uk kaeli and I will send those sheets to you too. yes dry can turn to wet though :-( FIP is horrible, and cats with it need to have a stress free, charm loving home. No more vaccinations, operation including spaying other wise the shock will kill them. researcher do not fully understand it themselves.... its so sad. >> > After one vet said it was a psychological problem another vet has >> > decided it is likely its FIP. But these symptoms are so vague and she [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >not! >the cat should of had blood tests done to check its titre level The titer will only show whether the cat has been exposed to the relatively benign feline coronavirus, not whether the cat has FIP. Rising titers may be more of an indications, but again, most cats with a feline coronavirus infection do not develop FIP. Checking titers are not much help in diagnosing FIP. >> It could be a neurological problem, a reaction to the vaccine, FLV >> itself (vaccine prevents 85% only and does not cure), FVR (herpes), or >> any number of problems or combination of problems. I am not sure why the vet would recommend the FeLV vaccine if he/she thought the cat had FeLV. If the cat already had FeLV the vaccine would not be of any help. >> The only sure way to diagnose FIP is through biopsy or necropsy. FIP is >> also often a fall-back diagnosis when a vet has no clue what the problem >> actually is. True, and as I posted elsewhere, most of the time it is not FIP, yet the vet may give up on looking for another diagnosis. Personally, I would always pursue a different course of diagnosis and treatment since most of the time, cats diagnosed with FIP do not have it. >that's terrible because FIP leads to death in most cases, so they are >telling people their cat s going to die, if it doesn't shed it! If a cat truly has FIP, it is invariably fatal. Cats diagnosed with FIP that recover did not have FIP. >> FVR can cause eye problems and can recur (like outbreaks) throughout the >> cat's life. Neurological problems could cause the eye problem, lack of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >problems, cats with FIP seem to hang over their bowl of water, sometimes >just resting their mouths in the water. That is common behavior for any cat that is running a fever. It doesn't necessarily indicate FIP. after they swallow they sit very up >right as if it hard for them to digest the food. Before taking my food. Hard swallowing isn't a specific symptom of FIP. >I really hope you are right Kaeli, FIP is so nasty :-( I have to agree with Kaeli--it doesn't sound like FIP to me, and since FIP is notoriously difficult to diagnose, if it were me I'd consult another vet. http://www.dr-addie.com/ check this site out for FIP > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Christina Hi Christina, I am really sorry to hear about your cat :-( has your vet done blood tests yet, to find out titre level? FIP can only be confirmed after death, but if your vet suspects it, you must not let your cats out, you need to have blood tests done on all the cats in your home, plus any that have been brought into your home. You need to separate your cats, they can shed it, its highly contagious through faeces and they can re infect themselves too by cleaning their bottoms, its very important to removed faeces every time the litter boxes are used. you need to get a titre reading of 0 on all the cats in your home. Its not genetic by the way. FIP is being research a lot at the moment.... cats were just put down before now the vets are trying steroids and antibiotics. Have a look at this website, http://www.gla.ac.uk/companion/fcovguide.htm don't just do a engine search for FIP because the research results are changing daily. Glasgow university are very up to date with their research. Their is wet and dry FIP I really hope your cat has not got FIP, please keep in touch Soozy > you need to get a titre reading of 0 on all the cats in your home. > Its not genetic by the way. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Soozy FIP is not well understood, but the theories about it have drastically changed over the last 5-10 years. The latest (and I mean latest, like stuff from more than a year or two ago says the opposite) research theorizes that FIP itself is NOT contagious. The coronavirus that causes it is, but each cat develops FIP on its own and most cats infected with FCoV will NOT develop FIP (~10% do). Kind of like HIV causes AIDS in people, FCoV causes FIP, but a lot less often than HIV causes AIDS. FIP is the disease - coronavirus is the virus. Other research thinks that a mutation of FCoV causes FIP and can be passed, but that seems to not be the most current opinion because of some studies that showed FIP cats living with other cats who never got sick. If the virus were contagious, as it should be like FCoV, all the other cats would have died. They did not. This is the best site I've seen about FIP/FCoV and it is kept very updated. It is authored by a vet. http://www.catvirus.com/WhatIsFIP.htm ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- > > you need to get a titre reading of 0 on all the cats in your home. > > Its not genetic by the way. [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > sick. If the virus were contagious, as it should be like FCoV, all the > other cats would have died. They did not. its so debatable though! my friends kitten *has* FIP and she has 3 others cats who's titre readings are 0.... the breeder she got her cat from cats have all been checked and have 0 readings too... the cat has never been out of the house, they say all out door cats have been in contact with FCoV at some time in their lives! I have done loads and loads of research into FIP for her, and to be honest! it is most confusing, and I no body really understands it completely. I know my friends kitten would of been put down a few years ago, but at least now they are trying steroids and antibiotics each time it falls sick... she has nearly lost I 3 times! > its so debatable though! my friends kitten *has* FIP How do they know that? From what I understand, they could only tell by biospsy. Did they do one? Or could she be one of the cats that gets FCoV and has it recurrent throughout life? FCoV can be pretty icky for a few cats, or so I thought. FCoV would show the same high titer levels and such if she's one of the ~15% who remain lifetime carriers. Also, a cat can be exposed to FCoV anywhere - including the vet's office! Humans can also carry it on them for a short time, IIRC. It is highly contagious. Other people who came in to look at the kittens could have exposed them to FCoV, and the exposed ones might have all been adopted out, so no one would know. Assuming the breeder didn't check on all past cats... The problem with FIP is that it looks like other illnesses - other things cause the same symptoms. So, the vet could be wrong. The kitten might not have FIP at all. Only a biopsy can tell for certain and only if lesions are present to test. Titer readings show FCoV - which does not necessarily prove FIP. Thoughts to ponder...this disease is not yet fully understood. ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- >its so debatable though! my friends kitten *has* FIP and she has 3 others >cats who's titre readings are 0.... the breeder she got her cat from cats >have all been checked and have 0 readings too... Well, that would make me wonder whether the kitten really has FIP. If all the breeder's cats have zero titres, that's about as complete a guarantee that her cattery is FIP free as anyone can get. If the kitten has a high titre, indicating exposure to the feline coronavirus, you would expect your other friend's cats to have measurable titres (at some point) as well. After all, the coronavirus is extremely contagious. the cat has never been out >of the house, they say all out door cats have been in contact with FCoV at >some time in their lives! Not necessarily. It is more common among catteries and multi-cat households where cats share close quarters. I have done loads and loads of research into FIP >for her, and to be honest! it is most confusing, and I no body really >understands it completely. I know my friends kitten would of been put down >a few years ago, but at least now they are trying steroids and antibiotics >each time it falls sick... she has nearly lost I 3 times! I would be surprised to find a case of FIP in a kitten responding to treatment like that, other than very temporarily. > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Christina Christina if you email me I will send you some up to date fact sheets from glasgow university soozy@totalise.co.uk > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > > Christina Christina, I don't have any experience with FIP, just wanted to say I'm sorry and I hope it's not FIP and she returns to good health. I'll keep my fingers crossed. Karen > Hi, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Christina Others have responded to the possibility of FIP and/or neurological problems. I wanted to respond in a very limited way to your comment about leukemia vaccine. This vaccine is not curative, so it would not do any good if your cat actually does have leukemia. It is used purely for prevention. In my opinion, you should not use vaccinations while your cat is showng such strong symptoms of impaired health. If your cat is an indoor-only cat, most professionals now recommend that leukemia vaccine should *not* be used, even in healthy cats. Good luck with your kitty. I wish I knew more so that I could respond to your more important questions, but there are others on this newsgroups who will (and already have) respond more effectively. FIP can be dreadful, so I hope that is not the correct diagnosis. Do you have access to a specialist or a veterinary college? That would be my next step. MaryL Hi, Thanks for all the info. I already knew that the leukaemia virus vaccine is only preventative, we only started her on it 2 years ago because we thought she was at risk and came back negative. We also had her blood test results back. She's FeCV positive (but thats no surprise as she is a 7 1/2 year old outdoor cat living in the same house as two other cats). But her globulin:albumin ratio isn't raised so thats another fairly good indicator that she's FIP negative. I was a bit disappointed with our vets though. I'm only a medical student but I guessed that a certain amount of feline medical problems could be similar to human ones since we're both mammals. Anyway, I suggested to my mum that it could be a post-viral problem thats caused an excessive immune response and inflammation in the central nervous system. So I got her to suggest this to the vet and ask her to be put on steroids (seeing as if this didn't work we'd probably run out of options so it was a bit of a last ditch attempt using my minimal cat medicine knowledge!). Anyway, she started had a steroid injection 2 days ago and she has jumped up onto the top bunk bed (her favourite haunt) buggered off into the garden for ages (she does that when she's annoyed at us especially seeing as we took her to the vets again....two pet hates of hers, cars & vets) and she's generally more interested in the world. She's also looking a lot steadier on her feet. So, fingers crossed, it's just an excessive immune reaction to a virus (relatively common in humans, especially of the heart and parts of the brain). Christina >We also had her blood test results back. She's FeCV positive (but >thats no surprise as she is a 7 1/2 year old outdoor cat living in the >same house as two other cats). As you probably know, that only means she has been exposed to the virus. If you test again and the titre is rising, that will indicate that it's an active infection. If it's falling, it means she's clearing it. But of course, neither situation means she has FIP. But her globulin:albumin ratio isn't >raised so thats another fairly good indicator that she's FIP negative. Yes, normally if only some of the indicators are positive but not all, you can be relatively sure the cat doesn't have FIP. >I was a bit disappointed with our vets though. I'm only a medical >student but I guessed that a certain amount of feline medical problems [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Christina |
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