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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / May 2004Need advice for cat diagnosed with acute pancreatitis
Hello, About a month ago one of our cats was diagnosed with acute pancreatitis. Her symptoms were loss of appetite, vomiting, tenderness in the cranial abdomen, and general malaise/depression. Her initial blood tests showed elevated leukocytes (24.68K/ul), BUN (64mg/dl), and glucose (190.5mg/dl). Her temperature was normal. She is an 11 year old Maine Coon who spends most of her time inside and only goes out with supervision. The vomiting consisted of large amounts of mostly clear fluid. She was put on IV fluids with antibiotics, pain medication, and an antiemetic. All food and water was withheld for 48 hours and then slowly reintroduced. The treatment worked and soon she was eating very well and gaining her weight back. But, suddenly, it started all over again this evening. She had been fine for nearly a month, eating like crazy, playful, active, etc. And now it looks like she's right back where she was a month ago. Since she went from being fine to quite sick in such a short amount of time, I have to think of the possibility of poisoning. Although we try to watch her 100% of the time when outside, it's not always possible. I wonder if there's something that she's eating, some plant/weed possibly, that's causing this. Or, is this just how pancreatitis can be, fine one day and very sick the next. It just doesn't make sense. Any advice would be most helpful. --Dave Dave, I don't have any advice to offer, except that maybe it's something chronic she's developed? Purrs and good thoughts coming your way. Karen > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > --Dave > She had been fine for > nearly a month, eating like crazy, playful, active, etc. And now it looks [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > --Dave I understand from your post that she went outside without supervision and got sick again, right? Acute pancreatitis can be caused by something she ingested while outside and that can be regarded as poisoning. I suggest you no longer allow her to go outside unsupervised because it really looks like she´s eating something out there she shouldn´t. Cats love eating leaves and she might be eating the "wrong" kind because the "right" kinds are not available. If you can´t keep her strictly indoors and can´t supervise her every time she is outside, get a vase and plant some of the "right" kind for her and let her eat at will. Hopefully she will not get the urge of eating the wrong kind when outside. She may also be eating some other thing so keeping her strictly indoors would be safer. My cats love bamboo leaves and it never did them harm. Other posters here use other kinds of leaves and might give you more suggestions. http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00120.htm > > She had been fine for > > nearly a month, eating like crazy, playful, active, etc. And now it looks [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00120.htm Actually - they don't seem to know what causes Pancreatitis in cats. My cat is currently suffering with this, and he is strictly an indoor cat. I don't have plants around that he eats, although I am looking at changing his diet in general. Right now, he won't eat *anything* - and I'm having to feed him small amounts with a syringe (Hill's A/D prescription) which he still vomits up at least once a day (which is better than the 3-5 times a day it used to be). Fortunately, he is drinking water. I think it's going to be off to the vet again on Monday. I know that's not much help, though. My vet did tell me that it can take quite a while for this to heal, and it can come back again. Bonnie Bonnie > Actually - they don't seem to know what causes Pancreatitis in cats. > My cat is currently suffering with this, and he is strictly an indoor [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > better than the 3-5 times a day it used to be). Fortunately, he is > drinking water. I think it's going to be off to the vet again on Monday. Sorry about your kitty. Did you have a chance to read the article on that link I posted? They mention some possible causes and state that whenever possible, the inciting cause should be removed. I think changing his food entirely is a good idea, preferably to a canned diet without carbs. Carbohydrates put a lot of strain on a cat´s pancreas. You could also try to sprinkle some digestive enzymes on his food to give his pancreas some rest. There are many supplements of digestive enzymes out there that you can use. Has he had it for a long time? What kinds of foods have you tried? > > Actually - they don't seem to know what causes Pancreatitis in cats. > > My cat is currently suffering with this, and he is strictly an indoor [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > enzymes out there that you can use. Has he had it for a long time? > What kinds of foods have you tried? I didn't catch the link you posted. Would you mind posting it again? I have done some research online - there's not a lot about this particular disease/disorder, but most everything I did find was in line with what my vet said. He's had this for about 2 weeks, some days better than others, but none particularly good. This particular kitty had crystals a few years back, which he had surgery to remove. Since then, he's been on a Waltham prescription diet (S/O dry), supplemented with a little Nutro wet food. My vet has suggested that when this passes, we should put him on a high protein/low-carb diet (Atkins for cats?). When I got my kitties 9 years ago - the school of thought was dry food should be the main part of the diet. Since then, it appears the thinking has changed. I've been out of the loop, I guess. I've been thinking of trying Iams. I will look into the enzymes you mentioned, as well. I've been reading the food wars in this group - please let's not go there. Anyway, can't do much until the inflammation goes away from his pancreas. The A/D food I've been syringing into him is low-fiber, easy to digest. I think I will have to admit him to the kitty hospital on Monday, because nothing I'm doing is working. He's continuing to lose weight (fortunately, he was overweight some before), and spends most of the day in a catatonic state (pardon the pun, but that's what it's like). Bonnie > I've been reading the food wars in this group - please let's not go > there. I think the food wars are only because some believe carbs or not harmful to cats. Then there is the real world that proves that isn't the case. Pancreatitis is from what I understand another form of IBD. I hope you can get the problem under control because it is such a debilitating disease. >I think the food wars are only because some believe carbs or not >harmful to cats. Then there is the real world that proves that isn't >the case. Pancreatitis is from what I understand another form of IBD. >I hope you can get the problem under control because it is such a >debilitating disease. What is IBD? -- Bogus e-mail address, but I read this newsgroup regularly, so reply here. >From: Marek Williams abc@example.com >-0400, "Cheryl" ><jlh@NOSPAMpetitmorte.net> dijo: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >What is IBD? Intestinal Bowel Disease ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >From: Marek Williams abc@example.com >What is IBD? Should have been Irritable Bowel Disease ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >> I think the food wars are only because some believe carbs or not >> harmful to cats. Then there is the real world that proves that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > What is IBD? Inflammatory Bowel Disease. In humans it is mostly called Crohn's Disease but it really seems to encompase any type of autoimmune GI problem. Degrading (or impared defense) of the intestinal mucosa resulting in the inability to absorb nutrients, can turn into cancer masses or lymphoma if untreated or treatment is ineffective, lots of diarrhea and sometimes vomiting, anorexia. There seems to be a lot of direct connections between IBD and food ingredients, sometimes allergic reactions to certain foods (the autoimmune factor) which is why so many cats are on cortiosteroid treatments. Bonnie, if that were my cat, I´d try to get food into him no matter what. Two weeks like that has probably drained too much of his energy. If he´s vomiting A/D, try something else. Go to the supermarket, get some ground meat, cook it or give it raw, but see if he can hold that down (meats have no fibers). If you have a drugstore near your house, get that enzyme supplement and mix it with the food. If you are going to cook the meat (preferably chicken), mix the supplement after you cook it. Don´t add any condiments. Don´t give him more than half a small cup per hour. Eating too much can also make him vomit especially now that he´s so weak. Please try this if you can and let me know how it went. I´m hoping he will eat meat with some enthusiasm and keep it down. Here´s the link: http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00120.htm Bonnie Forman wrote: >>> Actually - they don't seem to know what causes Pancreatitis in cats. >>>My cat is currently suffering with this, and he is strictly an indoor [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > > Bonnie Bonnie, Maybe the A/D is still a little too rich for his tummy? Maybe water it down a little more? I can't offer any advice on the medical aspects, only that when my cat wasn't eating and we were syringe feeding him, I watered his food down a lot, that seemed to help keep it down. Other than that, me and the critter are keeping fingers and paws crossed. :) > Carbohydrates put a lot of strain on a cat?s pancreas. *More* bogus and *dangerous* advice! We can add *another* dangerous theory to your growing list of dangerous information. Carbohydrates cause the *least* strain on a cat's pancreas because they produce the *least* amount of pancreatic enzyme secretion. The *first* line dietary treatment of pancreatitis in cats after 24-48 hours NPO is the gradual introduction of a carbohydrate-*rich* low fat diet. Even the link *you* posted recommended carb-rich/fat-poor diet: "the cat should be held NPO for three to four days. After this time water is slowly reintroduced, followed by small amounts of a carbohydrate-rich, low-fat diet." http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00120.htm You *obviously* have absolutely *no* experience treating a cat with pancreatitis and therefore, you should *not* give any advice on treatments you have absolutely no experience with and know absolutely *nothing* about. This isn't the first time you've given dangerous information. http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=577 http://www.provet.co.uk/health/diseases/pancreatitisfeeding.htm Stick to your test tubes and chemistry set manual before your dangerous information gets a cat killed... if it hasn't already. The biggest difference between people and cats is that people are omnivores, so we can tolerate a high amount of carbs in our diet. Cats are carnivores and they cannot tolerate carbs in their diet anywhere close to the way we do. Even we are poisoning ourselves with so much carbs that both diabetes and obesity have become epidemic. Those protocols for treating cats are OLD. They are based on protocols for humans, omnivores. Feline Nutrition Update - Vincent Biourge France However, LIMITED AMYLASE ACTIVITY in the pancreas and the small intestine of cats compared to dogs, may explain why some sensitive cats will not always tolerate high starch diets and why those individuals do better on higher fat diets. http://www.vin.com/VINDBPub/SearchPB/Proceedings/PR05000/PR00119.htm Carbohydrates and Fats It is clear that cats have a greater need than dogs or other omnivores for protein in their diet. Cats also have several physiologic adaptations that reflect their expected low CHO intake. The first of these is that cats lack salivary amylase, the enzyme responsible for initiating CHO digestion.25 In addition, CATS ALSO HAVE LOW ACTIVITIES OF INTESTINAL AND PANCREATIC AMYLASE AND REDUCED ACTIVITIES OF INTESTINAL DISACCHARIDASES THAT BREAK DOWN CHOs in the small intestines.25,26 These specific differences do not mean cats cannot use starch. In fact, cats are extremely efficient in their use of simple sugars. However, it does underscore their development as carnivores and the expected low amounts of grain in their typical diet. These digestive differences may mean that high amounts of CHO in diets may have untoward effects on cats. For example, high amounts of CHO in diets decrease protein digestibility in cats because of a combination of factors, including increased passage rate.27 Increased amounts of CHO in diets also causes a reduction in fecal pH in cats, which is caused by incomplete CHO fermentation in the small intestines that results in increased microbial fermentation in the colon and increased production of organic acids.27 In cats, the liver also has several distinct features that influence disaccharide metabolism. In most animals, hepatic hexokinase (a constitutive enzyme) and glucokinase (an inducible enzyme) are active and responsible for phosphorylation of glucose for storage or oxidation. Cats differ in that they have minimal function of hepatic glucokinase, and the activity is not adaptive (ie, activity cannot be up-regulated when the diet contains large amounts of CHO).28,29 In addition, cats also have minimal activity of hepatic glycogen synthetase (the enzyme responsible for converting glucose to glycogen for storage in the liver).2 Again, the likely reason for low hepatic glucokinase and glycogen synthetase activity in cats is a metabolic program that uses gluconeogenic amino acids and fat, rather than starch, in their diet for energy. Debra L. Zoran, DVM, PhD, DACVIM http://home.earthlink.net/~jacm2/id1.html Experience and research have shown that a raw meat-based diet will literally cure IBD and as Cheryl mentioned, there is a straight connection between pancreatitis and IBD. Phil, either update or get lost with your ignorance added to your obsolete and *conventional* knowledge. YOU are the one who's not doing cats any good. You can do nothing but follow the crowd and this crowd, if you haven't read Lauren´s posts, is mostly lead by Hill´s. Stick to your test tubes and chemistry set manual before your dangerous information gets a cat killed... if it hasn't already. Hasn´t happened yet and it won´t happen. Now I´m sure many many cats have died under your care simply because YOU CAN´T THINK. Another reply! ROTFL!!! I looks like you don't understand the concept of poor impulse control! . Those > protocols for treating cats are OLD. They are based on protocols for > humans, omnivores. They're for *cats*! Didn't you even read the title of the article *you* linked? "FELINE PANCREATITIS". One reference is from Current Veterinary Therapy XIII published in 2000, another is from the GI Lab - Small Animal Medicine and Surgery,Texas A&M University and published in 2002, and another (the one *you* cited and linked) was from the World Small Animal Veterinary Assoc convention and published in 2001.... Yeah, they sure are "old" protocols! LOL! You'll try anything to slither out of being shown that your theories are utterly asinine ... Most of the mainstream veterinary community follow those "old protocols" with considerable success. Those "old protocols" sure work like a charm in our cats with pancreatitis... How many cats have you managed with pancreatitis???? My guess, based on your absolute lack of first-hand knowledge from experience, is *none*. Talk about out of a book! That's *all* you've got... and most of it doesn't even apply to cats! LOL! > Feline Nutrition Update - Vincent Biourge France > However, LIMITED AMYLASE ACTIVITY in the pancreas and the small > intestine of cats compared to dogs, may explain why some sensitive > cats The discussion is about *pancreatitis* not "sensitive cats"... Don't try to convolute the issue with extraneous nonsense like you usually do. You flood the group with studies that have no relevance to the subject at hand to convolute the issue and confuse people so they think you know what you're talking about, when, in fact, you have absolutely no experience in almost *all* the issues you try to look you know something about! LOL! You're a real egomaniac! > Carbohydrates and Fats > Debra L. Zoran, DVM, PhD, DACVIM I know all about Zoran's Pearson's pages... My site contains almost the same information and *predates* theirs by >2 years! In fact it sure looks like they used my site for reference..... > Experience and research have shown that a raw meat-based diet will > literally cure IBD What "research"? What experience? Anecdotal stories by a bunch of au naturel fanatics? LOL! I don't think so. and as Cheryl mentioned, there is a straight > connection between pancreatitis and IBD. Hello... I've been managing IBD and pancreatitic cats very nicely with d/d, i/d, and w/d... for y e a r s. How many IBD and pancreatitic cats have you managed??? > Phil, either update or get lost "Get lost"? ROTFLMAO! You surely are delusional! I've been here long before you and I'll be here long after you've crawled back under the rock where Lauren found you... I think you should get lost before your utterly stupid and asinine advice and theories gets a cat(s) killed... if they haven't already. with your ignorance added to your > obsolete and *conventional* knowledge. ROTFL!! Well, Liz the wanna be Wiz, I guess wallow in my "ignorance" along with all the ACVIM and ABVP Diplomates and the rest of the highly trained and experienced conventional veterinary community. YOU are the one who's not doing > cats any good. You can do nothing but follow the crowd I can't think of a better crowd to follow than the ACVIM! LOL! Its a helluva lot better than a bunch of manipulating, obsessed au naturel fanatics! and this crowd, > if you haven't read Lauren?s posts, is mostly lead by Hill?s. Its sure better than being in crowd with nut cases like you.... > Stick to your test tubes and chemistry set manual before your > dangerous > information gets a cat killed... if it hasn't already. > > Hasn?t happened yet and it won?t happen. I seriously doubt that. ..but you'd never admit it... Now I?m sure many many cats > have died under your care Yes, I'm sorry to say some cats have died.. By the time we get most of the ill cats, the diseases are already in the terminal stages. However, *very*, *very* few cats ever get sick or develop serious illness while they're in our care ... and that's no easy feat to accomplish with a > thousand cats a year! I've had training in disease surveillance and prevention and medical and dietary management of diseases, have you? I've worked with a double-boarded veterinary professor for years and hundreds of other vets and labs over the years and thousands of cats. Where exactly does your "fountain of knowledge" come from? Your chemistry set manual that doesn't even apply to cats? > simply because YOU CAN?T THINK. I seem to think good enough to catch all your bullsh!t and manipulations, misrepresentations, and *deliberate* misinterpretations! ROTFL! You're truly a clear and present danger to cats because your agenda and ego are more important to you than the actual welfare of the cats. Come on, now, show us all that poor impulse control of yours *again*. I could use another good laugh! LOL! > One reference is from Current Veterinary Therapy XIII published in 2000, > another is from the GI Lab - Small Animal Medicine and Surgery,Texas A&M > University and published in 2002, and another (the one *you* cited and > linked) was from the World Small Animal Veterinary Assoc convention and > published in 2001.... Yeah, they sure are "old" protocols! LOL! Dr. Zoran´s paper was published in December of 2002. > Most of the mainstream veterinary community follow those "old protocols" > with considerable success. While those that went raw obtained absolute success. Wanna dispute that? > Those "old protocols" sure work like a charm in > our cats with pancreatitis... How many cats have you managed with > pancreatitis???? My guess, based on your absolute lack of first-hand > knowledge from experience, is *none*. Exactly! NONE. And I can´t tell you how proud I am to state it! NONE, NONE, NONE. While you give cats poor quality food, let them get sick with some nasty chronic disease and then treat them, I prefer to practice PREVENTIVE medicine, that is, good nutrition so that they DON´T get sick. > The discussion is about *pancreatitis* not "sensitive cats"... Tsk. I can´t believe you wrote that. If pancreatitis can be mananged with diet, you think that´s not related to sensitivity towards something in the old diet? Tsk. > Its sure better than being in crowd with nut cases like you.... Oh yes. Hummmmm... Lets see... How many cats have I killed? None. How many cats have died of diabetes, IBD, pancreatitis, liver failure, fatty liver disease, and other diet related diseases? I´d say at least some millions. How many of my 14 cats are currently sick? None. How many cats are currently sick because of diet related diseases? Another some millions. > Yes, I'm sorry to say some cats have died.. Yes, I´m sorry too. Perhaps if you realized that you should start walking on your own when you see that conventional therapy is not working, I´m sure you could save many more. > However, *very*, *very* few cats ever get sick or develop serious illness > while they're in our care ... And how long is that? One month? Two? > I've had training in disease surveillance and prevention and medical and > dietary management of diseases, have you? I've worked with a double-boarded > veterinary professor for years and hundreds of other vets and labs over the > years and thousands of cats. I´ve know vets with a much richer curriculum who were full of sh*t. You should stop letting yourself be impressed by a diploma. A diploma means nothing at all. Malpractice proves it. >> Most of the mainstream veterinary community follow those "old protocols" >> with considerable success. > >While those that went raw obtained absolute success. Wanna dispute >that? Hey, I'll dispute it! Can you provide any evidence at all other than testimonials from people w/ a pro-raw agenda? > Hey, I'll dispute it! Can you provide any evidence at all other than > testimonials from people w/ a pro-raw agenda? Pro-raw people don´t have an agenda. Most people who became pro-raw did so because their pets got sick from commercial food. If they find something that brings health back to their pets and that happens to be a natural diet, what do you expect them to do? Advertise commercial food? I don´t think so. >From: c864320@yahoo.com (Liz) >> Hey, I'll dispute it! Can you provide any evidence at all other than >> testimonials from people w/ a pro-raw agenda? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >a natural diet, what do you expect them to do? Advertise commercial >food? I don´t think so. I feed a raw diet but it makes no difference to me if someone else does or not. Saying someone who feeds raw has an agenda is completely absurd and ridiculous. As to pancreatitis, in the raw diet list I belong to which has over 1,000 members, we have not had 1 case of pancreatitis or IBD with cats fed a raw diet. Sure, that's anectdotal evidence, but it cannot be discounted in the least. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >> Hey, I'll dispute it! Can you provide any evidence at all other than >> testimonials from people w/ a pro-raw agenda? [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >a natural diet, what do you expect them to do? Advertise commercial >food? I don´t think so. So...what you're saying is that there isn't any evidence, only anecdotes? > So...what you're saying is that there isn't any evidence, only anecdotes? Get an unabridged dictionary and read Dr. Zoran´s paper. :) >From: c864320@yahoo.com (Liz) >Date: 10/27/03 6:46 PM Pacific Standard Time [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Get an unabridged dictionary and read Dr. Zoran´s paper. :) That's all you have to say? I guess there really ISN'T ANY evidence...only anecdotes! > > One reference is from Current Veterinary Therapy XIII published in 2000, > > another is from the GI Lab - Small Animal Medicine and Surgery,Texas A&M [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Dr. Zoran?s paper was published in December of 2002. Whoopee! ...and where exactly did she dispute or even address treatment protocols for pancreatitis? > > Most of the mainstream veterinary community follow those "old protocols" > > with considerable success. > > While those that went raw obtained absolute success. Wanna dispute > that? With whom? A bunch of obsessed fanatics who are well known for lying and manipulating facts and conjuring up *anything* on the spot to support and defend their obsessive, cult-like "religion"? (See: Lauren and a mirror for two examples) No, I don't think so.... I've had enough unpleasant experiences with your kind to know that regardless of the number of facts presented, they will not accept or tolerate any facts that challenges or opposes their cult doctrine. Look at you! You're the *quintessential* paradigm of obsessed au naturel cult fanatics who exist in the realm of delusion and denial! I produced at least ten links to veterinary universities that all said calcium oxalate cannot be dissolved in cats and dogs. Your response was "those sources need to be updated"! LOL! > > Those "old protocols" sure work like a charm in > > our cats with pancreatitis... How many cats have you managed with > > pancreatitis???? My guess, based on your absolute lack of first-hand > > knowledge from experience, is *none*. > > Exactly! NONE. Then obviously you shouldn't criticize or denigrate tried and *proven* therapies with which you have absolutely no first hand experience or knowledge.... > > The discussion is about *pancreatitis* not "sensitive cats"... > > Tsk. I can?t believe you wrote that. If pancreatitis can be mananged > with diet, you think that?s not related to sensitivity towards > something in the old diet? Tsk. Wow! You *really* are clueless about veterinary medicine and therapies! Simply because a disease can be managed with dietary modifications, that *does not* mean the disease was caused by diet. In some cases the cause can be identified (poisons, toxins, drugs, trauma), but in >90% of the cases the cause is never found. ....but of course a backwoods, obsessed, au naturel fanatic with no veterinary training or experience "figured out" the etiology of a disease that hundreds of board-certified ACVIM and ABVP Diplomates and pathologists and endocrinologists couldn't! LOL! > > Its sure better than being in crowd with nut cases like you.... > > Oh yes. Hummmmm... Lets see... How many cats have I killed? None. So you say. Who in their right mind would believe you (other than another obsessed fanatic) ? You've already been proven, time after time, to be a manipulator and a downright liar. I'll tell you one thing with absolute certainty, if someone whose cat had a urinary tract obstruction caused by a urolith followed your utterly *stupid* and assinine theory about dissolving calcium oxalate uroliths with water in cats instead of seeking professional veterinary care, their cat more than likely *would* have *died* from acute renal failure and/or severe damage to the urinary bladder! You don't know if a person or persons followed or will follow your *deadly* advice. So the only *true* statement you can make is that you don't know *if* or *how many* cats you've killed! How > many cats have died of diabetes, IBD, pancreatitis, liver failure, > fatty liver disease, and other diet related diseases? This is exactly what I mean when I say you have no experience or training in veterinary medicine or therapy or management. Diabetes, IBD, pancreatitis, liver failure, fatty liver disease are *not* necessarily diet-related diseases. Simply because a disease can be managed with dietary modifications, that *does not* mean the disease was caused by diet. > How many of my 14 cats are currently sick? None. So you say. Who in their right mind would believe you (other than another obsessed fanatic) ? You've already been proven, time after time, to be a manipulator and a downright liar. How > many cats are currently sick because of diet related diseases? Another > some millions. LOL! Typical fanatical cult fodder! Once again, in case you missed it the first time, simply because a disease can be managed with dietary modifications, that *does not* mean the disease was caused by diet. > > Yes, I'm sorry to say some cats have died.. > > Yes, I?m sorry too. Perhaps if you realized that you should start > walking on your own when you see that conventional therapy is not > working, So now you're telling me what *I* see? LOL! I see conventional therapy *is* working! I see the dramatic improvements and return to perfect or nearly perfect health in almost all of the sick cats that we get to in time. > I?m sure you could save many more. I've never had a cat in our care develop a diet-induced disease! > > However, *very*, *very* few cats ever get sick or develop serious illness > > while they're in our care ... > > And how long is that? One month? Two? We're a no-kill organization. Many of our animals are with us for *years* and some for *life*.... Oops! Wrong again.... If you knew what you were talking about before you opened your mouth, perhaps you'd have credibility.. but I think its much too late for you to start worrying about that now..... > > I've had training in disease surveillance and prevention and medical and > > dietary management of diseases, have you? I've worked with a double-boarded > > veterinary professor for years and hundreds of other vets and labs over the > > years and thousands of cats. > > I?ve know vets with a much richer curriculum who were full of sh*t. Yes, I know, anyone who doesn't succumb to your cult fanatisim is "full of sh!t".... Did the thought ever occur to you that *you're* full of sh!t? > With whom? A bunch of obsessed fanatics who are well known for lying and > manipulating facts and conjuring up *anything* on the spot to support and > defend their obsessive, cult-like "religion"? Do you feel persecuted by these people you call obsessed fanatics? Do they surround you everywhere you go? > Look at you! You're the *quintessential* paradigm of obsessed au naturel > cult fanatics who exist in the realm of delusion and denial! Delusion, denial, grandeur, obsessed, compulsive liar, etc. Where did you learn these words? There are some wonderful last generation antipsychotics out there for schizophrenia. The doctor is not trying to kill you, he´s trying to help you lead a normal life. >From: c864320@yahoo.com (Liz) >> With whom? A bunch of obsessed fanatics who are well known for lying and >> manipulating facts and conjuring up *anything* on the spot to support and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >schizophrenia. The doctor is not trying to kill you, he´s trying to >help you lead a normal life. ROFLMAO!!!! ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) >>From: c864320@yahoo.com (Liz) >>There are some wonderful last generation antipsychotics out there for >>schizophrenia. The doctor is not trying to kill you, he´s trying to >>help you lead a normal life. > >ROFLMAO!!!! Lauren, what's only slightly amusing is that Liz was talking to a mirror. I fear that Liz is the one that really needs help. >From: gaubster2@aol.com (GAUBSTER2) >>From: darnit7@aol.comnolitter (PawsForThought) > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Lauren, what's only slightly amusing is that Liz was talking to a mirror. I >fear that Liz is the one that really needs help. I see they're letting you use the computer again at the mental institution. Did you earn some good time? Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > > With whom? A bunch of obsessed fanatics who are well known for lying and > > manipulating facts and conjuring up *anything* on the spot to support and > > defend their obsessive, cult-like "religion"? > > Do you feel persecuted by these people you call obsessed fanatics? No, actually I find your cult comical. My only worry is that a newbie or someone who just doesn't know any better, might believe your dangerous theories. > > Look at you! You're the *quintessential* paradigm of obsessed au naturel > > cult fanatics who exist in the realm of delusion and denial! > > Delusion, denial, grandeur, obsessed, compulsive liar, etc. Where did > you learn these words? They come to mind every time I read your posts.... >From: c864320@yahoo.com (Liz) >> One reference is from Current Veterinary Therapy XIII published in 2000, >> another is from the GI Lab - Small Animal Medicine and Surgery,Texas A&M [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] >You should stop letting yourself be impressed by a diploma. A diploma >means nothing at all. Malpractice proves it. Maybe Phil should take his own advice: http://www.google.com/groups?q=Phil%2Bcredentials+group:rec.pets.cats.heal th%2Bbehav+author:Phil+author:P&hl=en&lr=lang_en&ie=UTF-8&newwindow=1&scor ing=r&selm=a7dnvq%24sbn%241%40bob.news.rcn.net&rnum=1 and I am wondering: What are your credentials? I > see that Steve Crane works for Hills. And I see that you have a website > where you seem to rescue animals and have a lot of resources gathered on > many feline issues, but I can't find anything on your site about you. > Please tell me what your credentials are. "Credentials don't guarantee credibility - one can exist without the other. I'm just a cat lover like you. Phil." ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > Maybe Phil should take his own advice: Ain't that a hoot coming from "Me Too" Lauren! LOL! You forget, I remember when you started posting here.... >From: "Dave Humes" dhumes001@comcast.net >Her symptoms were loss of appetite, vomiting, tenderness in the cranial >abdomen, and general malaise/depression. Her initial blood tests showed >elevated leukocytes (24.68K/ul), BUN (64mg/dl), and glucose (190.5mg/dl). >Her temperature was normal. Has she been tested for FIP? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm Hello All, Well, we're now more frustrated than before. We took Ginger to a vet at the local emergency clinic this morning who had treated her about a month ago when this first started. He said the pancreas felt normal today, but he noted what he thought to be mass in the abdomen that was not noted before (1 month ago) in any of the evaluations of the three vets that examined her. She also had an ultrasound performed a month ago, and no abnormalities were noted. But, since the vet today said he felt a mass, he wanted another ultrasound. So, that was done this afternoon (by a different vet than the one who did the initial ultrasound). Most of the report was normal findings for a cat of her age. But, here's the bad stuff. "One area of intestinal wall in mid abdomen appears thickened and hypoechoic with gas shadowing within lumen. No mesenteric lymphadenopathy noted. Assessments and DDx: Thickened abdominal wall - focal neoplasia, GI lymphosarcoma, leiomyosarcoma. Chronic intussusception, severe parasite burden." The vets that examined her today did not note any of the abdominal tenderness/guarding that she exhibited a month ago, which was thought to be consistent with the pancreatitis diagnosis. Tonight, for what it's worth, after bringing her home and letting her settle for a while, she expressed interest in eating. So, we gave her a little food, and she drank some, and so far it's staying down. When this happened a month ago, she lost all interest in eating. So, she appears to be on the upswing again. The thing that I'm really struggling with here is if it is a tumor, how can she be fine one day, deathly ill the next, recover nicely after supportive therapy, do very well for 3 weeks, but then over the course of 1 day become deathly ill again. The suggestion was offered by a vet today that as she looses weight from the vomiting, the relationship of the folds of the intestines changes such that the pressure is relieved from a blockage at the site of the mass only to return as she eats more and gains weight. I suppose that is possible, but it's just a guess. We had decided today that if the ultrasound was strongly suggestive of cancer that we were not going pursue heroics like chemo, radiation, or surgery. The possibility of an intussusception, however, is something for which we would consider surgery. But, I'm sure that the other diagnoses are more likely. Without pursuing exploratory surgery, is there anything else that can be done a this point to get a more definitive diagnosis? This cat has been my best friend for 10 years. I love her more than I could have ever imagined, and just want to make the best decision for her. I do not want to prolong suffering and trade the qualify of her life for maybe a few more months. But, the report says "focal neoplasia" and "no mesenteric lymphadenopathy noted." These may be indications that surgery could be successful, and provide some quality years. Or maybe it is an intussusception. I just don't know what to do. Once again, any suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks for listening. --Dave > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > --Dave "Dave Humes" <dhumes001@comcast.net> wrote in message > "One area of intestinal > wall in mid abdomen appears thickened and hypoechoic with gas shadowing > within lumen. No mesenteric lymphadenopathy noted. Assessments and DDx: > Thickened abdominal wall - focal neoplasia, GI lymphosarcoma, > leiomyosarcoma. Chronic intussusception, severe parasite burden." I would question that DDx. Please take a look at: http://www.vin.com/proceedings/Proceedings.plx?CID=WSAVA2002&PID=2609 What caught my attention most was "severe parasite burden." I understand that she has a lot of parasites in her and this alone may be causing all those symptoms. Were these parasites identified? Did the vet offer any treatment for them? Honestly, I didn't like those guys. They don't seem to know what they're doing. I'd definitively find another vet. See if there's a vet in your area who specializes in enteric diseases or call your friends and see if any of them has a vet they greatly recommend. > "Dave Humes" <dhumes001@comcast.net> wrote in message > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thickened abdominal wall - focal neoplasia, GI lymphosarcoma, > > leiomyosarcoma. Chronic intussusception, severe parasite burden." CID=WSAVA2002&PID=2609 > What caught my attention most was "severe parasite burden." I > understand that she has a lot of parasites in her and this alone may > be causing all those symptoms. Were these parasites identified? Did > the vet offer any treatment for them? Don't you even know whar "DDx" means? DDx means "differential diagnosis"... a *possibility*, *not* that the cat actually has a "severe parasite burden"... "Ph> Don't you even know whar "DDx" means? DDx means "differential diagnosis"... > a *possibility*, *not* that the cat actually has a "severe parasite > burden"... And I do not agree with it. Why didn´t they list *all* the possibilities? And why haven´t they asked for at least a feces exam? They can´t *differenciate* much with *ultrasound* alone. The only thing they could do is see that there´s something that doesn´t look right and ask for more exams, and not send the guy home the way they did, apparently already suggesting surgery and telling him the worst. Do you think these guys are serious? Gimmy a break. Look at the cat´s history. His crises are related to going outside unsupervised. Did you know that cats eat grass to mechanically clean themselves from worms? Doesn´t it look quite obvious that this cat is eating something he shouldn´t? > "Ph> Don't you even know whar "DDx" means? DDx means "differential > diagnosis"... > > a *possibility*, *not* that the cat actually has a "severe parasite > > burden"... > > And I do not agree with it. You do not agree with what? A differential? LOL! Don't try to convolute the issue and draw attention away from the fact that you addressed the "severe parasite burden." differential as an actual diagnosis. Apparently, you didn't even know what a differential diagnosis was! LOL! I guess DDx wasn't in your chemistry set handbook! > "I understand that she has a lot of parasites in her" No, you cannot understand that she "*has* a lot of parasites in her" because parasites were *not* diagnosed.... "Severe parasite burden" was merely one of the differentials.... just as GI lymphosarcoma, leiomyosarcoma and chronic intussusception were differentials.... > "Were these parasites identified? Did the vet offer any treatment for them?" Treatment for what? A differential diagnosis? LOL! Should the vet have also started chemo for the GI lymphosarcoma and leiomyosarcoma differentials, too? LOL! Can't wait to see your usual, convoluted double-talk explanation to try to weasel out of this one! >The vets >that examined her today did not note any of the abdominal >tenderness/guarding that she exhibited a month ago, which was thought to be >consistent with the pancreatitis diagnosis. Did your cat receive the TLI (trypsin-like immunoreactivity) test, which is the most accurate way to diagnose pancreatitis? Without this test, pancreatitis can be difficult to diagnose. Unfortunately the test can take several weeks, so it's more useful to verify an initial diagnosis. With our cat, she was recovered by the time the results were back but at least we knew that's what she had. Yes, once a cat has had pancreatitis, it is predisposed to recur. Hi Dave, Long time lurker, first time poster. My cat Tortle was diagnosed with pancreatitis about 3 years ago (at about 2 years old). From what I can recollect, our vet ran blood work which included tests for amylase and/or lipase (my memory is a little foggy on this)and the level(s) were quite elevated. She recovered quite slowly--months to a year or more. It took months for the blood work to return to normal. She's doing fabulously now but our vet said that pancreatitis could "smolder" and then flair up again. Like I said, she's doing great, active, playful but doesn't have quite the appetite she had prior to her bout with pancreatitis. She is and always has been an indoor kitty. She never has had another bout since then. Our vet had her on canned Select Care HiFactor Formula, which is easier to digest than regular cat food. Our vet also had me sprinkle a powder over her food--I think it was called Prozyme--which also was to improve digestion. My vet said that the cause of pancreatitis in cats was less clear-cut than with dogs. I wish you the best with your kitty and I hope she does as well as Tortle has. Good luck, Bonnie K. > Hello, > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > --Dave Hello: My 20+ year old kitty, Elsa, has been diagnosed with chronic pancreatitis. She hardly eats at all now and is losing a lot of weight. She's been in and out of the hospital getting I.V. fluids. If this continues, the vet said she will need a feeding tube implanted in her intestines. I'm desperate to avoid this if possible. I heard mention here of the enzyme Prozyme. My vet said digestive enzymes are not necessary, but I am thinking of just buying it on my own and giving it to her. Do you think this will help? Any other supplements that might help? Thank you very much. Diane > My vet said digestive enzymes are not necessary, but I am > thinking of just buying it on my own and giving it to her. Do you think > this will help? Any other supplements that might help? You should never give your cat anything the doctor doesn't approve of. Also, the questions you ask are best answered by a vet. circa Fri, 30 Apr 2004 00:28:07 -0400, in rec.pets.cats.health+behav, Elssa (dmath3@aol.com) said, > Hello: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Thank you very much. Why not ask your vet if, although s/he doesn't think it would *help*, does s/he think it would *harm* your cat? If s/he doesn't, then it wouldn't hurt to try it. Laura  SignatureI am Dyslexia of Borg, Your a.s will be laminated. > Hello, > > About a month ago one of our cats was diagnosed with acute pancreatitis. > Her symptoms were loss of appetite, vomiting, tenderness in the cranial > abdomen, and general malaise/depression. Her initial blood tests showed > elevated leukocytes (24.68K/ul), BUN (64mg/dl), and glucose (190.5mg/dl). Both WBC and glucose elevations could be due to stress ("White Coat" effect - trip to the vet and blood collection) since they aren't "that" high - although the latter could also be due to mild, transient damage to the pancreatic (beta) cells that secrete insulin. The elevated BUN could be due to vomiting (prerenal uremia ) without any organ damage. Pancreatitis is very difficult to diagnose in cats without specialized testing (TLI). Its not as easy as in the dog. Elevated amylase and lipase are usually diagnostic in the dog, but not in the cat -- both of these enzymes are often within the normal range in cats with pancreatitis. > Her temperature was normal. She is an 11 year old Maine Coon who spends > most of her time inside and only goes out with supervision. The vomiting > consisted of large amounts of mostly clear fluid. She was put on IV fluids > with antibiotics, pain medication, and an antiemetic. All food and water > was withheld for 48 hours and then slowly reintroduced. Excellent theraputic plan. The initial diet should be carbohydrate-rich & low-fat. Carbs produce the least amout of pancreatic enzyme secretion. The ideal diet for a cat with pancreatitis is almost the exact opposite of a cat's normal diet. We've the best results with boiled rice and, believe it or not, pasta! Also, keep a close watch on her potassium levels. The treatment > worked and soon she was eating very well and gaining her weight back. But, > suddenly, it started all over again this evening. She had been fine for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > when outside, it's not always possible. I wonder if there's something that > she's eating, some plant/weed possibly, that's causing this. Very possible -- especially if insecticides were used on the plants. Another cause of pancreatitis in cats is Toxoplasma - which is usually acquired by eating raw meat or rodents infected with T. gondii cysts.. However, in most cases the cause is never found. Or, is this > just how pancreatitis can be, fine one day and very sick the next. It just > doesn't make sense. Any advice would be most helpful. In my experience, recur?rent acute pancreatitis seems to occur more commonly than chronic pancreatitis in cats. In some cases, the inflammation "smolders" for awhile without any obvious symptoms until something triggers the process again. Sometimes, returning to a normal-to-high fat diet too soon triggers the process. However, because of the diagnostic limitations, and lack of medical history of our shelter cats its difficult to distinguist recurring acute pancreatitis from chronic pancreatitis or make a definitive diagnoses without surgery -However, I have *very serious* reservations about pancreatic biopsy due to the high risk of causing further inflammation. If you can't supervise her 100% of the time she's outdoors, you might want to consider building an enclosure or taking her out only on a leash and harness. You might also want to make a thorough inspection of the outside area that she has access to -- keep an eye out for rodents - dead or alive. Best of luck, Phil. |
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