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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / October 2003Declawing and Apartments
I know we split on this issue about declawing, but I was curious as to your thoughts about renting to cats. I am happy to report that Kami and I will be moving into a very nice apartment community. My deposit was $100, hers $300 even though she is declaw. The thing is, the community requires cats to be declawed and they check! They asked us to stop by the office at our earliest convenience so they can "meet" her. (Why they can't just drop by the apartment I have no idea.) This got me thinking about the West Hollywood issue. Many places in West Hollywood are upscale and high rent. I know for a fact that some require cats to be declawed. How does that work in the face of the fact that declawing in West Hollywood is illegal? Wouldn't you think that as a city that supposedly abhors declawing to the extent of legislature it would make the requirement for it within its city limits illegal as well?  SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? > I know we split on this issue about declawing, but I was curious as to > your thoughts about renting to cats. I am happy to report that Kami [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to stop by the office at our earliest convenience so they can "meet" > her. (Why they can't just drop by the apartment I have no idea.) I rather think that you and your new landlords deserve one another. I do feel sorry for Kami, on the other hand. Mary <rosefan@email.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >> I know we split on this issue about declawing, but I was curious as > to [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I rather think that you and your new landlords deserve one another. I > do feel sorry for Kami, on the other hand. I noticed you have nothing meaningful or intelligent to contribute. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? > Mary <rosefan@email.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > I noticed you have nothing meaningful or intelligent to contribute. You are entitled to your opinion. Does Kami miss her claws? >From: "Mary" rosefan@email.com >I rather think that you and your new landlords deserve one another. I >do feel sorry for Kami, on the other hand. I do too :( There is no way I would ever rent an apartment where a landlord requires that I mutilate my pets. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm I have to wonder if the cat was declawed before she ever got her? I know my other cat Jade was declawed before I rescued her. I do have to say that if anyone gets their cats declawed or is considering it also go through the process themselves. Then I think they'd get a quick education on what mutilation is. Also, it is disgusting that a community require you to have a cat declawed before moving to them. Those places should not be supported. SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > I rather think that you and your new landlords deserve one another. I > do feel sorry for Kami, on the other hand. > I have to wonder if the cat was declawed before she ever got her? If you looked in the archives, you'd see the answer to that is a NO. ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- << Also, it is disgusting that a community require you to have a cat declawed before moving to them. Those places should not be supported. >> I used to live in an apt. complex that "required" you to declaw your cats but all they did was ask and I said, yes, they had been declawed (they weren't, btw). They didn't seem to overly care about the issue. They had to be neutered, too, but they didn't check that either. They were also supposed to be kept indoors. I did that but many other people didn't. Candace (take the litter out before replying by e-mail) See my cats: http://photos.yahoo.com/maccandace "One does not meet oneself until one catches the reflection from an eye other than human." (Loren Eisely) Cat Protector <catprotector@cox.net> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > I have to wonder if the cat was declawed before she ever got her? > I know my other cat Jade was declawed before I rescued her. I do [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > is disgusting that a community require you to have a cat declawed > before moving to them. Those places should not be supported. Well, my relocation is a special case, and even if didn't have a cat and was opposed to declawing I probably would have still taken the place. I've leased it sight unseen, save the pictures in Apartments.com. I just don't have the luxury of going out there to shop and have been relying on an apartment locator to help me. It's really above and beyond to ask her to pretty much choose a place, but after dealing with it for a couple of months, she moved herself. Now, when someone who knows the ins and outs of virtually every apartment community within a 30 mile radius of my central point, that's a pretty good endorsement and I'm comfortable doing it. Sometimes you have to just choose your battles and priorities. In my situation I could end up picking a dive with whose pool looks akin to "Vacation" just because there are no pet limitations (probably including mandatory doo-doo pick-up) and mutter daily that it's all about the principle amid infestations of ants and cockroaches, or I can do what I did not worrying about it because it's a great opportunity and my cat is already declawed. That still doesn't address my original issue, though. What kind of argument would someone have in a city where declawing was illegal if they came across an apartment situation like mine? SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Brandy wrote in message news:Xns9417DEB7B1605whatsittoyou@216.168.3.50... > That still doesn't address my original issue, though. What kind of > argument would someone have in a city where declawing was illegal if > they came across an apartment situation like mine? Isn't this obvious? "If you are willing to overlook my cat's claws I am willing to overlook the fact that you are making my renting from you contingent upon my doing something illegal." > Brandy wrote in message > news:Xns9417DEB7B1605whatsittoyou@216.168.3.50... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > am willing to overlook the fact that you are making my renting from > you contingent upon my doing something illegal." Great answer! > > Brandy wrote in message > > news:Xns9417DEB7B1605whatsittoyou@216.168.3.50... [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > > Great answer! Tnks! I wish they would call declawing something else, so that everyone would know what it really is. >From: "Mary" rosefan@email.com >> > Brandy wrote in message >> > news:Xns9417DEB7B1605whatsittoyou@216.168.3.50... [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >Tnks! I wish they would call declawing something else, so that >everyone would know what it really is. Digit amputation? Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: "Mary" rosefan@email.com > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Lauren That would work. Or Paw Mutilation For Protecting Upholstery. Or maybe Maiming of Paws for the Preservation of Perfect Furniture. As you may recall, I did have a cat declawed when I was very young and did not know what it was, just assumed it had to do with removing the claws from the sheath or something. She was very mean and very destructive, but as soon as I saw her little paws I wished I hadn't done it. Wonderful (if painful!) little mechanisms reduced to what looked like dustmops. I have never felt so bad... no excuses, but I have never done it again. My furniture doesn't look so hot, because although they are trained they do slip up. But my cats look great! Live and learn. And try to be better every day. >From: "Mary" rosefan@email.com >> >From: "Mary" rosefan@email.com >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >That would work. Or Paw Mutilation For Protecting Upholstery. Or maybe >Maiming of Paws for the Preservation of Perfect Furniture. Maybe we should make a sign for the vet's office. >As you may recall, I did have a cat declawed when I was very young and >did not know what it was, just assumed it had to do with removing the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >although they are trained they do slip up. But my cats look great! >Live and learn. And try to be better every day. I don't blame someone who declaws in ignorance. Most vets never tell people what's involved. They act like it's just a simple manicure. The fact is you know, now, and that's what's important. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > As you may recall, I did have a cat declawed when I was very young > and did not know what it was, just assumed it had to do with > removing the claws from the sheath or something. She was very mean > and very destructive, but as soon as I saw her little paws I wished > I hadn't done it. I almost did the same thing over 3 years ago when I bought my house and furnished with new furniture. Luckily the vet had concerns and while she would have done it, her concerns made me look into why she questioned declawing older cats. I'm so thankful I asked that vet and not another one. Wonderful (if painful!) little mechanisms reduced > to what looked like dustmops. I have never felt so bad... no > excuses, but I have never done it again. My furniture doesn't look > so hot, because although they are trained they do slip up. But my > cats look great! Live and learn. And try to be better every day. My "fears" were wrong. I posted here many times about keeping the plastic wraps the furniture came in to throw back over the new stuff when I wasn't home. I read and read and read here about people having no problems and I started doing what they did; bought several sturdy scratching posts and even had my dad (who dislikes cats) build me a couple, and finally got a sturdy cat tree that right now is shredded but they LOVE it. The occasionally slip up but moving a scratching post to where they decide to scratch (and it is usually Shadow who is older and was harder to "train") gets the message across. I also kept an old recliner that was my grandmothers chair for them to scratch once they took it over. For some reason they know that is there's, and the other untouched furniture isn't. Good kitties!! >From: "Cheryl" jlh@NOSPAMpetitmorte.net >My "fears" were wrong. I posted here many times about keeping the >plastic wraps the furniture came in to throw back over the new stuff [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >once they took it over. For some reason they know that is there's, >and the other untouched furniture isn't. Good kitties!! and good for you for training them right and providing appropriate places to scratch! :) Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: "Cheryl" jlh@NOSPAMpetitmorte.net > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Lauren > ________ Ditto from me, Cheryl. People claim all the time that training cannot be done, but it can. It depends on where your priorities are and how much you love your animals. > Ditto from me, Cheryl. People claim all the time that training cannot > be done, but it can. It depends on where your priorities are and how > much you love your animals. All animals can be trained. Not all humans can train any given animal. Some require a lot more patience and time than others, and they each respond to different methods differently. It depends both on the human and on the animal. Some animals respond very well to positive only training and some decide they don't care enough for treats to do as you ask (they have more fun NOT doing it). Some dogs respond very poorly to force training (e.g. the jerk and shove method) and some are just fine with it and may only respond to that method. Anyone who claims all animals respond equally well to any training method hasn't worked with a large enough variety of animals. Many people lack the patience for training an animal that doesn't respond to the "Traditional" training they are used to, whether it be PP or punishment. Others lack the consistency required for good training. You can't really teach a person how to be more patient or consistent - they have to be willing to work at their own personality, too. / my 2 cents ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- > My "fears" were wrong. I posted here many times about keeping the > plastic wraps the furniture came in to throw back over the new stuff [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > once they took it over. For some reason they know that is there's, > and the other untouched furniture isn't. Good kitties!! Excellent ideas, all. It just takes a little effort and a smart approach. Reminds me I need to get two more scratching posts for around the new couch! I have foil on the corners now, works well but isn't pretty! > Brandy wrote in message > news:Xns9417DEB7B1605whatsittoyou@216.168.3.50... [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > am willing to overlook the fact that you are making my renting from > you contingent upon my doing something illegal." The abstract argument is simple. Pretty much in all states AFAIK a contract term which is illegal is void. This principle goes back to common law; most if not all states have codified it. The practical hassle would be in enforcing the principle against the landlord, which might involve going to court. You could go on the offensive and try to get a declaratory judgement saying that the provision is unenforceable or you could wait for the landlord to try to enforce it and raise the illegality of the lease term as a defense. Are you saying that you had your cats declawed and also support the practice? SignaturePanther TEK: Staying On Top Of All Your Computer Needs! www.members.cox.net/catprotector/panthertek Cat Galaxy: All Cats, All The Time! www.catgalaxymedia.com > Well, my relocation is a special case, and even if didn't have a cat > and was opposed to declawing I probably would have still taken the [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > argument would someone have in a city where declawing was illegal if > they came across an apartment situation like mine? >I know we split on this issue about declawing, but I was curious as to >your thoughts about renting to cats. I am happy to report that Kami [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >legislature it would make the requirement for it within its city limits >illegal as well? Well, well. I rent a single-family house, and don't even ask for a separate pet deposit. I just ask the tenants to steam-clean the carpet when they move. You attacked me on three newsgroups, told the entire newsgroup community where I live, called that method a "nonrefundable deposit" and called me a slum landlord. I call it a workable, affordable solution so that cats (and dogs) can stay in the house with the family, where they belong. But when a landlord requires a major surgery in order for a cat to stay inside, you're all for it with bells on. Newsgroup been too quiet for you? You're trying to stir up sh.t, nothing more. If you were truly interested in the legal aspect of the question, you'd post on misc.legal.moderated, where you are a regular, not on a cat group you *know* is passionately anti-declaw. Sherry Sherry <sriddles@aol.comkitty> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > Well, well. I rent a single-family house, and don't even ask for a > separate pet deposit. I just ask the tenants to steam-clean the [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > you *know* is passionately anti-declaw. > Sherry How can I tell anyone where you live when I don't know where you live. If you're talking about what state you live in, you posted that yourself. And what I have "attacked" you for is your greedy little bit of hypocrisy. You have admitted that you steam cleaned carpets between tenants ANYWAY. It just that you have simply chosen to rob cat owners because to them it makes you look like one of the good guys. You're a cheat, a liar, and a fraud. I'm not trolling or stirring up anything. I had an experience leasing my new apartment, it made me think about West Hollywood. It's a valid question. You're the one who obviously thinks the ng is too quiet. And people say *I* am always the one to start flame wars. No, *I* am the one who doesn't take crap from the socially deficient. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? >And people say *I* am always the one to start flame wars. No, *I* am >the one who doesn't take crap from the socially deficient. No, you just habitually post crap about West Hollywood's declaw situation on a cat lover's group. That's socially deficient. Your last jewel started a flame war, and that's your intent. But I see you've gotten your answers. Nobody on this group so far would *consider* renting from a landlord who required a tenant to mutilate their pet. Just you. Sherry Sherry <sriddles@aol.comkitty> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: >>And people say *I* am always the one to start flame wars. No, *I* >>am the one who doesn't take crap from the socially deficient. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Sherry No, YOU started a flame war because you couldn't pass it by. It was a legit post about the legalities between anti-declaw and pro-declaw within the same city limits. You want this started up again, that's fine. But don't you ever say that I go around starting flame wars. You're guilty this time. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Sherry <sriddles@aol.comkitty> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > No, you just habitually post crap about West Hollywood's declaw > situation on a cat lover's group. That's socially deficient. Your > last jewel started a flame war, and that's your intent. But I see > you've gotten your answers. Nobody on this group so far would > *consider* renting from a landlord who required a tenant to > mutilate their pet. Just you. And another thing, I never asked if they would or not. That's not the "answer" I was looking for because I didn't ask a question. I'll repeat it since you're obviously slow, I asked for thoughts about the legality of declaw requirements in a city where declawing is illegal. I don't care if anyone would or would not declaw if face with such a rule, I was hoping for an intellectual/academic discourse. I should have know better in here. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? > >And people say *I* am always the one to start flame wars. No, *I* am > >the one who doesn't take crap from the socially deficient. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > this group so far would *consider* renting from a landlord who required a > tenant to mutilate their pet. Just you. No, Sherry...I think any reply to the skank should be "just ewwwww" ;) -L. >> >And people say *I* am always the one to start flame wars. No, *I* am >> >the one who doesn't take crap from the socially deficient. >> >And people say *I* am always the one to start flame wars. No, *I* am >> >the one who doesn't take crap from the socially deficient. Ewwwwww. Sherry > >> >And people say *I* am always the one to start flame wars. No, *I* am > >> >the one who doesn't take crap from the socially deficient. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sherry LOL!...you crack me up sometimes. -L. Oh, and you are a troll. Thats also an understatement. Now scram! Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck > >I know we split on this issue about declawing, but I was curious as to > >your thoughts about renting to cats. I am happy to report that Kami [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > But when a landlord requires a major surgery in order for a cat to stay inside, > you're all for it with bells on. Typical. > Newsgroup been too quiet for you? You're trying to stir up sh.t, nothing more. Bingo. Killfile the skank and be done with it. -L. > I know we split on this issue about declawing, but I was curious as to > your thoughts about renting to cats. I am happy to report that Kami [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > to stop by the office at our earliest convenience so they can "meet" > her. (Why they can't just drop by the apartment I have no idea.) That, sadly, is the case at many apartments around here. Declaw required. If people with cats stopped renting from those places, maybe they'd get the idea that they shouldn't do that. Those people never listen to reason. The fact is, a trained, clawed cat does a lot less damage than say, a declawed cat who has litterbox issues. The owner should have to pay for any damage their pet does. If the owner does pay for damage, what should the landlord care if the cat is clawed? But, they don't listen. So, vote with your feet and money - don't rent at these places. > This got me thinking about the West Hollywood issue. Many places in > West Hollywood are upscale and high rent. I know for a fact that some [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > legislature it would make the requirement for it within its city limits > illegal as well? That is way too logical for Hollywood. :) ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- >From: kaeli infinite.possibilities@NOSPAMatt.net >That, sadly, is the case at many apartments around here. Declaw >required. >If people with cats stopped renting from those places, maybe they'd get >the idea that they shouldn't do that. I totally agree. Interestingly, a friend of mine printed out some information she got from the internet on declawing, and showed it to her prospective landlord. The landlord actually had no idea that declawing involved amputation of the ends of the cat's toes. He agreed to rent to my friend so long as she kept the claws clipped and there was no damage to the apartment. She also had to pay some kind of damage deposit. In my experience, it's children and dogs that cause much more damage than cats. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > I know we split on this issue about declawing, but I was curious as to > your thoughts about renting to cats. I am happy to report that Kami [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > legislature it would make the requirement for it within its city limits > illegal as well? My apartment complex had the same rule. Others I just said "No way" to. I always offered more deposit and told them about cat furniture and clipping. This one, the manager said she accepted a double pet deposit. 100 on each cat and 100 for claws. So I paid a 600 dollar pet deposit with half of it refundable (the part for being clawed cats). You *have* to ask, because some will make allowances like this. I now live in one of the nicest apartments in the city. Karen Hi Brandy , I really don't understand why landlords insists on cats being declaws . They're cats not tigers , they're not going to rip through walls or something . Things like wallpaper and furntiure can be replaced. -- Alison > I know we split on this issue about declawing, but I was curious as to > your thoughts about renting to cats. I am happy to report that Kami [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx > Well, would you? The house that we're renting at the moment in the UK states in the contract that no pets are allowed, unless agreed with the landlord. Thankfully the landlord (who owns the house) must either like cats or has some of their own as they let us have a cat in the property.. We do have to pay ?80 for the place to be fumigated after we leave, and we cannot have a cat flap fitted to the front door (which is a bit of a pain now as he likes to go out). As its an unfurnished place, I don't think they were that worried about any damage that might be caused. Becky >The house that we're renting at the moment in the UK states in the contract >that no pets are allowed, unless agreed with the landlord. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > >Becky I bet you'll never find an apartment complex (do you call them apartments? Flats?) that requires declaw in your country. It would probably be illegal, as it *should* be. Sherry > The house that we're renting at the moment in the UK states in the contract > that no pets are allowed, unless agreed with the landlord. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Becky Hi Becky, I remember from my renting days (along time ago!)how hard it was to find a place where you could keep pets. One place, we were allowed budgies and they did far more damage than a cat could have done.BG Alison lison" alison@Xallofus2X.fsnet.co.uk wrote: >I remember from my renting days (along time ago!)how hard it was to >find a place where you could keep pets. One place, we were allowed >budgies and they did far more damage than a cat could have done.BG > Alison LOL. Yes, back in my renting days, I didn't have all that much trouble finding a place that allowed my cat, but my roommate had a dog and two cats, so it was a lot harder to find a place that allowed a menagerie like that. And yes, the only one of them that ever did any damage was the dog. He had a bad habit of scratching on the door when he wanted out, and she never trained him not to do it. I can't blame the landlords that didn't want to rent to her. Brandy Alexandre" brandy@kamikaze.org wrote: >This got me thinking about the West Hollywood issue. Many places in >West Hollywood are upscale and high rent. I know for a fact that some [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >legislature it would make the requirement for it within its city limits >illegal as well? Perhaps they will, although landlords can generally make any sort of restriction they want, as long as it is not prohibited by anti-discrimination laws. When I was a renter, I just didn't consider any rental that required declawing (not that many did back then) just as I would simply not consider any rental that did not allow pets. The HSUS has tips on finding pet-friendly apartments and dealing with landlord concerns: http://www.hsus.org/ace/11866 The HSUS opposes declawing when done for the convenience of the caregiver or the rental managers. I would NEVER declaw my cats and in general I am against the procedure. I have some good friends who have two declawed cats. The cats seem completely normal and have no behavior problems so it would seem that a lot of the comments about problems are overstated. -MIKE > I would NEVER declaw my cats and in general I am against the procedure. > I have some good friends who have two declawed cats. The cats seem > completely normal and have no behavior problems so it would seem that a > lot of the comments about problems are overstated. Only a relatively few people had to die from Phen-fen (sp?) before they banned that. Same for that herb that caused heart problems. Same for silicone breast implants. How many people have to have problems before a procedure or drug is banned? Not too many, really. Same for cats - just because the majority of cats don't have massive problems with declawing doesn't mean it's an okay thing to do. We don't even have reliable stats for complications - people only report really bad problems (usually from botched surgery). How many cats had behavior problems or complications years after the procedure that no one ever found out about? Inappropriate urination, aggressive behavior, back problems, leg problems, arthritis, or other joint pain late in life? We might never know - no one has done extensive studies with large samples. There's a few studies out there, but most have only a couple hundred subjects at most and don't follow them throughout life to see if, say, declawing causes joint degeneration after age 8. We have no idea what the effects REALLY are. And honestly - is there ANY justifiable reason to cut off an animal's toes?? Even if it didn't harm a single cat, could you really justify that as perfectly fine? We don't go around thinking the removal of a dog's vocal chords is perfectly fine (well, most of us, anyway). ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- >>I would NEVER declaw my cats and in general I am against the procedure. >>I have some good friends who have two declawed cats. The cats seem [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > that as perfectly fine? We don't go around thinking the removal of a > dog's vocal chords is perfectly fine (well, most of us, anyway). Just go to the AKC website, and get ready to gag... > ------------------------------------------------- > ~kaeli~ [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace > ------------------------------------------------- >From: kaeli infinite.possibilities@NOSPAMatt.net >5.public.lawson.webtv.net>, >twinmountain@webtv.net enlightened us with... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >silicone breast implants. How many people have to have problems before a >procedure or drug is banned? Not too many, really. Vets are not going to admit when a problem is declaw related either. That would be like shooting themselves in the foot (or amputating the ends of their fingers). Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >And honestly - is there ANY justifiable reason to cut off an animal's >toes?? Even if it didn't harm a single cat, could you really justify >that as perfectly fine? We don't go around thinking the removal of a >dog's vocal chords is perfectly fine (well, most of us, anyway). Quick note before I get to the thrust of my point -- I am rabidly, vocally, wholly against declawing and ear cropping. As a professional trainer, debarking is one of those things where I am emotionally torn. On one hand, I am against elective surgery on animals for cosmetic and/or laziness reasons. On the other, I have met and worked with many dogs who got *immense* pleasure out of the act of barking. I worked with one dog and his owner for two years on trying to train out incessent barking. I am a positive trainer, and Jack (a Sheltie) got the idea of what I wanted with the 'Quiet' command very easily. The problem came in the execution of the command. Jack could simply not understand why he wasn't allowed to bark his little head off for the pleasure of it. Eventually, he became depressed, withdrawn, and heart-achingly unhappy because every time he started to bark he was told to stop. He went from being a happy, outgoing dog who did agility and loved new people and situations to a profoundly depressed dog who wasn't interested in going to agility class, chasing birds, herding the cats in the house, *anything*. Finally, over my protestations, the owner got Jack debarked. Within a couple of weeks he was back to his old self, joyously barking his head off -- he was just much much quieter. He didn't seem to notice that his bark was no longer earsplitting. So you can see my dilemna. I *do* think that 95% of debarks happen because people are just goddamn lazy. But that other 5%? Part of me screams that it's still a terrible thing to do to a dog. But the other part of me remembers Jack. Orchid > >And honestly - is there ANY justifiable reason to cut off an animal's > >toes?? Even if it didn't harm a single cat, could you really justify [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > joyously barking his head off -- he was just much much quieter. He > didn't seem to notice that his bark was no longer earsplitting. I solved that problem with letting my dog (half-sheltie, and she inherited the vocals very good thank you) bark on the "right" occasions. She is not permitted to bark at anything that slows down on the road thats ahead of us, but if a car comes up the driveway, we let her and we put a stop to it after a few minutes. That way she remains a good guard but is also disciplined about the barking. She's also always very joyful and full of energy. I still don't get all the people that have corrective surgeries on animals this way. Why do they take animals in the first place if this and that feature bothers them, and they are not willing to put the time and patience to train properly??? They should stick with objects. Animals are not objects. Not too many people realize this yet. Elaine > So you can see my dilemna. I *do* think that 95% of debarks > happen because people are just goddamn lazy. But that other 5%? Part > of me screams that it's still a terrible thing to do to a dog. But > the other part of me remembers Jack. > > Orchid >I solved that problem with letting my dog (half-sheltie, and she inherited >the vocals very good thank you) bark on the "right" occasions. She is not [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >disciplined about the barking. She's also always very joyful and full of >energy. Oh, we tried that. Sorry, I should have pointed out that this was not 'alert' barking. Nor was it 'Look, it's a cat/bird/squirrel' barking. This was 'sit in the middle of a perfectly quiet room and enjoy the act of barking' barking. 'Quiet' commands, at least in my classes, are for stopping barking after the dog has done its 'job' and alerted you to whatever it has seen. Jack got the idea of correct alert barks (two or three barks to tell the humans there's something they shoudl know) in two or three sessions. It was the recreational barking that sent him into depression. >I still don't get all the people that have corrective surgeries on animals >this way. Why do they take animals in the first place if this and that >feature bothers them, and they are not willing to put the time and patience >to train properly??? They should stick with objects. Animals are not >objects. Not too many people realize this yet. I do hope that you're not implying that my client wasn't taking the time to train properly. Jack was a beautifully trained dog, with one problem behaviour that we just could not get rid of. Orchid > >I solved that problem with letting my dog (half-sheltie, and she inherited > >the vocals very good thank you) bark on the "right" occasions. She is not [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > Orchid You did protest against it yourself. I don't agree with your client's decision anymore than you did. Maybe the dog was too restricted in his barking. I could never stop mine after two or three barks to give me a warning. Her first bark is a serie of 9 or 10 all lined up together anyways. We let her go on at it till she released enough energy and then we stop her. I am always aware that its too easy to judge a situation from far with no involvement at all, but I don't feel that these surgeries are ever meant-to-be solutions. There is always "mine is an exception case", but thats what opens the door to maintaining the practice. We have dealt with barking dogs before anyone ever dreamed up that option. Elaine >You did protest against it yourself. I don't agree with your client's >decision anymore than you did. *nod* I see what you are saying. Sorry I reacted defensively -- I consider myself a good trainer (my cats are better trained than most dogs) and we worked exhaustively with Jack. >Maybe the dog was too restricted in his barking. I could never stop mine >after two or three barks to give me a warning. Her first bark is a serie of >9 or 10 all lined up together anyways. We let her go on at it till she >released enough energy and then we stop her. The problem was not really the alert barking -- he was very happy when he got to alert bark, and the 2 or 3 was all he really ever needed when doing his 'job'. The problem really was the entertainment barking. He would sit in a room or his run (a 20'x20' fully enclosed run connected to the house via a special dog door in the wall so he could come and go as he pleased) and bark for literally 45 minutes. >I am always aware that its too easy to judge a situation from far with no >involvement at all, but I don't feel that these surgeries are ever >meant-to-be solutions. And this is where I am torn. Part of me vehemently agrees with you. Part of me says 'What if absolutely nothing else works?' Furniture clawing has no real consequences to the owner -- it's just furniture, and objects are vastly less important than animals. But incessant barking is a noise violation, which can get you a $50-$100 ticket per complaint, and could possibly get you thrown out of an apartment or seriously fined by your HOA. It can even lead to legal problems. And as much as we love our animals, can we really condemn someone for not being willing to sell their house or be evicted from an apartment? >There is always "mine is an exception case", but thats what opens the door >to maintaining the practice. We have dealt with barking dogs before anyone >ever dreamed up that option. True, but the option in the 'good old days' to a dog that wouldn't stop barking was generally a bullet to the head. Either by the owner, an upset neighbor, or a animal control officer. Orchid > >You did protest against it yourself. I don't agree with your client's > >decision anymore than you did. [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > >to maintaining the practice. We have dealt with barking dogs before anyone > >ever dreamed up that option. > True, but the option in the 'good old days' to a dog that > wouldn't stop barking was generally a bullet to the head. Either by > the owner, an upset neighbor, or a animal control officer. Yes, I know, I had not forgotten about that. Difficult to find the perfect solution to this problem, its true. It depends on the individual with the dog and what end result is really wanted. Elaine > So you can see my dilemna. I *do* think that 95% of debarks > happen because people are just goddamn lazy. But that other 5%? Part > of me screams that it's still a terrible thing to do to a dog. But > the other part of me remembers Jack. He's a dog. Dogs bark. If my dog barks for the hell of it and I want her to shut up, I play with her. She can't bark while her mouth is full of a big, soft toy or some yummy chews. She does know the "sshhhh!" command, but sometimes she's just bored and wants to play. So, we make a game of it and she gets rewarded for barking on command, then for being quiet on command. She gets very proud of herself, not depressed. If I'm not home, she can bark 'til her heart's content. Honestly, if Jack were my dog, and I couldn't get him to be quiet through play, food, praise, or whatever, I would have accepted the barking rather than mutilate him. Out of curiosity, did they try a no-bark citronella collar? Remote collars that spray citronella don't allow the dog to associate the correction with an angry trainer - which IME is the cause of "down" dogs. ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- >> So you can see my dilemna. I *do* think that 95% of debarks >> happen because people are just goddamn lazy. But that other 5%? Part [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >------------------------------------------------- >~kaeli~ I just don't know what to think about this de-barking thing. It just seems so wrong. I have a Dacshund mix. (and you dog people know what that means!). He's a recreational barker. He barks at birds. He barks at the smoke coming off the charcoal grill. He barks when he's bored. Kaeli's right, I think. We shush him when we can, and accept it when we can't. Sherry > >> So you can see my dilemna. I *do* think that 95% of debarks > >> happen because people are just goddamn lazy. But that other 5%? Part [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > when we can, and accept it when we can't. > Sherry My border collie mix barks at everything too. Some breeds just have it in them. Mine will hush as long as I'm out with her. She rarely barks in the house, so I have it easy. It's just so stupid to see a dog trying to catch a squirrel barking all the way. My basenji mix looks at her sometimes and I swear it's like she's saying "Will you JUST SHUT UP!" The basenji mix doesn't hardly bark at all - only when it is apparent someone strange is approaching the house. -L. >My border collie mix barks at everything too. Some breeds just have >it in them. Mine will hush as long as I'm out with her. She rarely [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >-L. LOL! I know Happy's bark when there's actually something out there. Funniest of all is his "bored" bark. It's like "Woof..........(pause) woof.......repeat. I cannot for the life of me figure out why he doesn't like indoors, not even in winter. He also hates women and children (to the point we took out a dog bite insurance policy). Doxies aren't made for cold weather, their coatts are so short. It *really* makes you wonder why dogs have "issues" like that...no one knows anything about his history, he was just brought in as a stray at the shelter. I bet something happened to him that's the root of it. Sherry > LOL! I know Happy's bark when there's actually something out there. Funniest >of > all is his "bored" bark. It's like "Woof..........(pause) woof.......repeat. I > cannot for the life of me figure out why he doesn't like indoors, not even in > winter. He also hates women and children Smart dog...most women are annoying and most children are hideous monsters. ;) >(to the point we took out a dog bite > insurance policy). Doxies aren't made for cold weather, their coatts are so > short. It *really* makes you wonder why dogs have "issues" like that...no one > knows anything about his history, he was just brought in as a stray at the > shelter. I bet something happened to him that's the root of it. He may have been scolded or punished for trying to come into the house. Toshie (bc mix) was like that at first. I *could not* get her to come in. She was afraid to even try. All I can figure is that when she would try, people would kick her back. Poor thing. She still has issues, and I've had her almost 10 years. People just suck. -L. > My border collie mix barks at everything too. Some breeds just have > it in them. Mine will hush as long as I'm out with her. She rarely > barks in the house, so I have it easy. It's just so stupid to see a > dog trying to catch a squirrel barking all the way. LOL!! Sam does that! With geese, too. hehe She's just having fun. ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- >If I'm not home, she can bark 'til her heart's content. I'm glad I don't live next door to you. >>If I'm not home, she can bark 'til her heart's content. > >I'm glad I don't live next door to you. Ooooh. Point taken. For the record, re: the other post I made, we don't have any neighbors but the coyotes and deer. But I recall when we lived in the city, a barking dog got you a $50 fine; and the police would issue the ticket at 2 a.m. if necessary! (We had a dachshund then too, but at least she would come inside. This one has some kind of issues about staying in the house at night. He hates it.) Sherry >>>If I'm not home, she can bark 'til her heart's content. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Sherry He does realize the coyotes refer to him as the "walking hot dog" doesn't he??? :) K >He does realize the coyotes refer to him as the "walking hot dog" >doesn't he??? :) > >K Nah. He thinks he *is* one. When they're howling, he joins right in, even if he's in the house. DH says he wants them to come get him to join their pack. :-) Sherry > >If I'm not home, she can bark 'til her heart's content. > > I'm glad I don't live next door to you. If you lived next to me, you probably wouldn't even hear her. She's inside, not outside, and the walls are thick. As to the rest of my neighbors, everyone is gone all day at work just like me, so I doubt anyone would be home to care if barking was how she got her jollies. IME, a tired, content, happy dog is a quieter dog. Sam gets lots of playtime. When I forget, she barks a lot more to remind me. hehe Seriously, a dog that is nice and tired is sleeping, not barking. Run them hard before you go to work and they pretty much sleep all day anyway. Best way to keep them out of trouble there is. ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- >If you lived next to me, you probably wouldn't even hear her. She's >inside, not outside, and the walls are thick. As to the rest of my >neighbors, everyone is gone all day at work just like me, so I doubt >anyone would be home to care if barking was how she got her jollies. That's good that the neighbors can't hear her. I'm just not sure people always know whether their dog is barking all day when they are gone. We used to live one apartment up from a couple that had a Basenji. They swore we were lying when we complained about the noise their dog made when they weren't home because supposedly they can't bark. But it did howl (or yodel, I guess it's called) for hours on end, driving us nuts. Yet another reason we were glad to leave apartment living behind and buy a house. Currently a neighbor three houses down has a dog that barks all day. Yes, he's indoors but during warm weather, he's barking out an open window upstairs. Barks at everyone who walks down the street, and every squirrel he sees, etc. I'd hate to live next door to that house. > That's good that the neighbors can't hear her. I'm just not sure people always > know whether their dog is barking all day when they are gone. We don't know - we rely on people to tell us. Preferably nicely. I am friends with my neighbors. They'd mention it. Now if I lived somewhere less friendly, I'd worry about it. ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- >If I'm not home, she can bark 'til her heart's >content. Hopefully you don't have neighbors! Nadine > >If I'm not home, she can bark 'til her heart's > >content. > > Hopefully you don't have neighbors! None that are home when I'm not. :) I live in a very nice community where people actually talk to each other, so if it were a problem, I'm sure someone would mention it. ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- >> >If I'm not home, she can bark 'til her heart's >> >content. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >I live in a very nice community where people actually talk to each >other, so if it were a problem, I'm sure someone would mention it. My news server is acting weird, so I've lost a couple days of messages. So if I missed anything directed at me, I apologise. Here in Northern Virginia (Fairfax County to be exact) there are very specific noise ordinances. "Fairfax County noise ordinance prohibits loud noises that jeopardizes the health or welfare, or that degrades the quality of life for residents of Fairfax County. Nuisance noises, including the following, are considered an illegal noise disturbance when plainly audible across property lines or through partitions: <snipped for length> Animals that howl, bark, meow, squawk frequently or habitually at any time. " Jack was a poster child for noise ordinance violation. Fines for noise violation start at $100 and go up to $1000. Jack's owner had already been cited twice, and her neighbors and HOA were starting to make unhappy noises. Please understand, I'm not advocating debarking as a wonderful solution. I think 95% of barking problems are capable of being trained out, but I can't see condemning someone because they don't want to lose their home and they have tried everything else. Furniture clawing has no real consequence for the owners -- it's just furniture. But losing your house is a real, huge consequence, and I can't see removing a dog from a stellar home (Jack has two agility titles, his CDX, and gets to go herd twice a week. They have a 20'x20' enclosed run for him connected to the house so he has access to the outside whenever he wants it, and about an acre of fenced yard. His mom is at home with him all the time.) to a home that is not as dedicated to dog ownership where he can bark all day as being a better solution. Maybe you can, but I can't. Orchid > Jack was a poster child for noise ordinance violation. Fines > for noise violation start at $100 and go up to $1000. Jack's owner > had already been cited twice, and her neighbors and HOA were starting > to make unhappy noises. Wow. He must have been pretty loud - when I'm outside, I can't really hear my dog bark from inside. And she's not allowed to just bark for the hell of it outside. > Please understand, I'm not advocating debarking as a wonderful > solution. I think 95% of barking problems are capable of being > trained out, but I can't see condemning someone because they don't > want to lose their home and they have tried everything else. I guess I have a problem thinking that they really did try everything else, since there is so much out there to try. Did they try a citronella collar? Did they try exercising the heck out of him every time he started up, since a sleeping dog is generally not barking? I am trying not to condemn or judge them, but it makes me very sad to hear people think it is ever a solution to do this. It's not my dog and I sure don't know the whole story and hindsight is 20-20 and all that jazz. > and I can't see removing a dog from a stellar home So, declawing would be okay if the home were otherwise stellar? My problem with justifying any mutilating surgery is that other people then use that justification for other mutilating surgeries. Slippery slope. Where do you draw the line? People who don't declaw a cat they are unable to train could lose their homes, too, if they rent. Does this make declawing the cat okay then? To me, no. To others, maybe. ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- >Wow. He must have been pretty loud - when I'm outside, I can't really >hear my dog bark from inside. When I said earsplitting, I really meant it. You could hear him from the sidewalk. >And she's not allowed to just bark for the hell of it outside. Jack is an indoor dog with access to the outside via a fully enclosed run. We tried restricting access to the outside, but he just barked inside, which didn't solve the problem. >> Please understand, I'm not advocating debarking as a wonderful >> solution. I think 95% of barking problems are capable of being [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >else, since there is so much out there to try. Did they try a citronella >collar? The problem was not the understanding of the 'quiet' command, because it worked. Remember that the depression came about because he was not allowed to bark. The citronella collar is used to apply positive punishment (adding something unpleasant into the dog's life) when the owner is not present, acting somewhat like a 'quiet' command. Since Jack's mom is home with him, she could apply the 'quiet' command without using positive punishment (something that I, as a positive reward, negative punishment trainer abhor). The citronella collar would have had the same effect on Jack as the 'quiet' command did, except for adding pain/unpleasantness into his life as well as depressing him. >Did they try exercising the heck out of him every time he >started up, since a sleeping dog is generally not barking? Maybe you missed the list of activities in Jack's life when I described his home to you. Or, more likely, you are unfamiliar with the training and exercise that goes along with those titles. Jack is an advanced agility dog, working on his master title. This means he's going to agility classes ~3 times a week. Outside of class, there is an agility course set up in the backyard, for exercise and working on specific obstacles. Since agility requires a conditioned dog, he gets a 3 mile jog at least once a day. Jack is a Companion Dog Excellent (CDX), which is the second level of competitive obedience training. He goes to obedience once a week. Jack also goes to herding twice a week, where he gets to do what Shelties were bred to do -- chase sheep (in a controlled fashion, of course). This was not a lack of exercise problem. Jack appeared to simply get a physical pleasure out of the act of barking. I'm really not joking here. He would come in after tearing around the agility course, tongue hanging out, and bark for 20 minutes before curling up to go to sleep like another dog might chew on a Kong. I'm a professional private trainer, and I focus on canine behaviour as the basis of my training programs. If this had been exercise-based, training-based, or boredom-based, the problem would have been solved before I ever had to be called in. >> and I can't see removing a dog from a stellar home > >So, declawing would be okay if the home were otherwise stellar? I am a cat lover, but let's be honest here. A stellar home for a cat is one where the cat is loved, gets appropriate vet care, appropriate food, and isn't mutilated for the sake of the furniture. A stellar home for a dog is a lot more difficult to provide. A good home for a dog isn't much more difficult to provide, but a stellar home for a dog involves a lot more time and effort than most people are willing to put in. A stellar home for a dog involves people who are not only willing to do what is required for a good home (proper food, exercise, vet care, affection, and training) but go above and beyond to provide performance activites, mental stimulation, and breed-appropriate activites (herding, carting, weight-pull, Schutzhund, etc). Those homes are *very* difficult to find, because it means that not only do you have people who recognise that dog ownership is for life, it means that they care deeply about their dog and breed. Jack's mom and dad probably spend 20-30 hours a week devoted to their dog and his happiness. Jack's mom is a writer, so she is home with him 24/7. He travels with them. How is placing him in a good home where he can bark (if such a place exists) better? Finally, unlike declawing, no study has indicated any complications from debarking. Dogs do not seem to notice that their bark is softer. Debarking does not actually silence a dog, it just significantly quiets them. There are no behaviour problems (such as biting, litterbox problems,etc) as there are in declaws, there are no physical problems like the arthritis seen in declawed cats. Unlike declawing, the dog does not exhibit signs of extreme pain after surgery. The only risk comes from the anesthesia. >My problem with justifying any mutilating surgery is that other people >then use that justification for other mutilating surgeries. Slippery >slope. Where do you draw the line? I hear you, but my problem still remains. I am torn over debarking in a way that ear cropping and declawing could never make me feel. >People who don't declaw a cat they are unable to train could lose their >homes, too, if they rent. Does this make declawing the cat okay then? In all honesty, when you sign those rental papers, you know what you are getting into. If you are so foolish as to move into a place that could evict you because your cat claws your furniture, carpet, whatever, you're an idiot. The worst I have ever seen happen to an owner with a cat with a clawing problem was the loss of a security deposit and a couple hundred bucks extra to cover damage costs. A judge cannot order your cat destroyed because of a clawing problem. You can't be fined hundreds of dollars on a regular basis because of a clawing problem. In short, a clawing problem is not illegal. A barking problem is. Orchid <snip> I've snipped it all b/c I have nothing useful to add except that I am simply morally against debarking. You made some great points that I really can't argue with. If the situation was as described, I can't say what I would have done. At least you weren't the one who had to make that decision... ------------------------------------------------- ~kaeli~ Jesus saves, Allah protects, and Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich. http://www.ipwebdesign.net/wildAtHeart http://www.ipwebdesign.net/kaelisSpace ------------------------------------------------- ><snip> >I've snipped it all b/c I have nothing useful to add except that I am >simply morally against debarking. You made some great points that I >really can't argue with. If the situation was as described, I can't say >what I would have done. >At least you weren't the one who had to make that decision... And I thank the gods for it every day. To this day I have no idea what I would have done if Jack were mine. Luckily, my heart breeds aren't barky ones -- Papillons and Labs are not usually as enamoured of the sounds of their own voice. I will continue being torn, sadly. :( Orchid >kaeli wrote >If I'm not home, she can bark 'til her heart's >content. >Hopefully you don't have neighbors! >None that are home when I'm not. :) >I live in a very nice community where people >actually talk to each other, so if it were a >problem, I'm sure someone would mention it. Well that's good :-) I've heard some horror stories from people around where I work that due to the noise ordinances have been forced to either get rid of their barking dogs or move, and yes most of the dogs were in the house when the barking was occurring. Glad I live out in the country! Nadine >From: twinmountain@webtv.net (---MIKE---) >I would NEVER declaw my cats and in general I am against the procedure. >I have some good friends who have two declawed cats. The cats seem >completely normal and have no behavior problems so it would seem that a >lot of the comments about problems are overstated. Hardly. Studies have shown 1 in 5 cats will have problems from declawing. My question is why would someone play Russian roulette with their cat's health and well being? Keep in mind, many problems from declawing don't show up until the cat ages. Also, cats are stoic by their very nature as predators and a lot of people wouldn't even know it if their cat were in pain or had nerve damage. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: twinmountain@webtv.net (---MIKE---) > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > question is why would someone play Russian roulette with their cat's health and > well being? The same reason hundreds of people a day play Russian roulette with their own lives every day by driving under the influence (either alcohol or drugs), smoking a pack (or more) of cigarettes a day, not to mention smoking while standing at the gas station while pumping gas (a highly flammable substance) into their car(s), eating fast-food 3 (or more) times a day (and then suing said fast food chain because they got fat).... the list goes on. If people care so little for their own well being, why should they care any more for their pets??? And yes, I have 2 declawed cats, with no problems stemming from that, but I DO regret having them declawed, and will not have any more declawed. Magic Mood Jeep©" nobody@nowhere.net wrote: >If people care so little for their own well being, why should they care any >more for their pets??? That's why it's apparently something that has to be legislated, like wearing seat belts. Personally, I think if you want to kill yourself, go ahead, but the cat doesn't have the choice as to whether to be declawed. ---MIKE--- <twinmountain@webtv.net> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > I would NEVER declaw my cats and in general I am against the > procedure. I have some good friends who have two declawed cats. > The cats seem completely normal and have no behavior problems so > it would seem that a lot of the comments about problems are > overstated. That's an understatement. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Brandy Alexandre wrote: > ---MIKE--- <twinmountain@webtv.net> wrote in > rec.pets.cats.health+behav: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > That's an understatement. You're a bitch. Now thats an understatement. Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck Brandy Alexandre wrote: <...nothing of importance deleted here...> I see you are trolling again. Poor Kami stuck with the likes of you. > I know we split on this issue about declawing, but I was curious as to > your thoughts about renting to cats. I am happy to report that Kami [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > legislature it would make the requirement for it within its city limits > illegal as well? What I am interested to know is the reason why these communities require cats to be declawed. I've never heard of such a thing in my life. Judy Judy <wumpygirl@__yahoo__.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > What I am interested to know is the reason why these communities > require cats to be declawed. I've never heard of such a thing in > my life. > > Judy Many, many, many large upscale aparment communities require declawing. I've very surprised if you have never come across this. SignatureBrandy??Alexandre? http://www.swydm.com/?refer=BrandyAlx Well, would you? Brandy Alexandre wrote: > Judy <wumpygirl@__yahoo__.com> wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Many, many, many large upscale aparment communities require declawing. > I've very surprised if you have never come across this. You'd be surprised to discover grocery stores sell ice cream. Air head! Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck |
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