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Spot is very Ill - I don't know what is best for him

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Animal luva - 12 Oct 2003 15:24 GMT
He's a 13yr old neutered male cat recently diagnosed with oral squamous cell
carcinoma and we been advised to prepare for euthanasia.
He's been prescribed metacam in a final bid to make his last days more
comfortable and we've been informed that Spot "will let us know when it's
time"
Needless to say I've trawled the internet. I've got my head around most of
it - except where it comes to a cats pain threshold. Obviously, it's vital I
understand this so can anyone tell me which if any of these statements are
true?

1. Felines posess a higher pain threshold than other animals.

or

2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering less
than other animals ?

Thank you.
zuzu22@webtv.net - 12 Oct 2003 16:15 GMT
>can anyone tell me which if any of these
>statements are true?

2.

Cats hide pain and illness extremely well, and we often don't see it
until it's pretty bad.

Megan

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

mug punter - 12 Oct 2003 18:36 GMT
Thank you.

> Cats hide pain and illness extremely well, and we often don't see it
> until it's pretty bad.
>
> Megan
mug punter - 12 Oct 2003 18:47 GMT
> Thank you.
>
>> Cats hide pain and illness extremely well, and we often don't see it
>> until it's pretty bad.
>>
>> Megan

Oops, Outlook Express changed the account, hence the different reply name

AKA Animal Luva
PawsForThought - 12 Oct 2003 16:50 GMT
>From: "Animal luva" spambin@by.co.uk

>1. Felines posess a higher pain threshold than other animals.
>
>or
>
>2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering less
>than other animals ?

Absolutely #2 is correct.  Cats, by their very nature as predators, will not
exhibit pain, in most instances.  Some vets are now of the opinion that cats
when having surgery should be given pain medication, instead of just thinking
they aren't in pain because they don't show it.
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
mug punter - 12 Oct 2003 18:45 GMT
>> From: "Animal luva" spambin@by.co.uk
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> medication, instead of just thinking they aren't in pain because they
> don't show it. ________

Thank you.

I understand it must be very difficult to judge, even for the very
experienced.
mug punter - 12 Oct 2003 18:47 GMT
>>> From: "Animal luva" spambin@by.co.uk
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> I understand it must be very difficult to judge, even for the very
> experienced.

Oops, Outlook Express changed the account, hence the different reply name

AKA Animal Luva
PawsForThought - 12 Oct 2003 22:36 GMT
>From: "mug punter" surewhynot@by.co.uk

>>> From: "Animal luva" spambin@by.co.uk
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>I understand it must be very difficult to judge, even for the very
>experienced.

Yes, it most definitely is.  Good luck with your kitty.  I'm very sorry to hear
Spot is so ill.

Lauren
________
See my cats:  http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe
Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html
http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm
Karen - 12 Oct 2003 23:54 GMT
>> From: "mug punter" surewhynot@by.co.uk
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
> http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html
> Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm

I'm very sorry too :(  What a difficult time for you.

Karen
mug punter - 13 Oct 2003 21:56 GMT
>>>>> 2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their
>>>>> suffering less than other animals ?
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Karen

Thank you for your kindness.
I'll survive...
mug punter - 13 Oct 2003 21:56 GMT
>>>> 2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering
>>>> less than other animals ?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Lauren

Yes, our vet certainly seems a little confused but I presume there's not
enough specific detail available for him.
Thank you for your kind thoughts.
-L. - 14 Oct 2003 06:18 GMT
> He's a 13yr old neutered male cat recently diagnosed with oral squamous cell
> carcinoma and we been advised to prepare for euthanasia.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> 2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering less
> than other animals ?

We know this is true.  Cats are stoic by nature.  They do not show illness easily.

> Thank you.

This link might help you know when it is time:

http://angelshavenhere.homestead.com/makingthedecision.html

Best of luck to you,

-L.
mug punter - 14 Oct 2003 15:36 GMT
>> 2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering
>> less than other animals ?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> -L.

Thanks for the link and your kind wish.
I have read several similar articles. Bless the internet!
Last week, I would have gladly let Spot go - he wasn't himself at all,
totally lethargic and disorientated.
Fortunately(?) due to the turmoil in my head I procrastinated.
I'm now delighted that I didn't make any solid plans and believe his
demeanour then was largely due to his biospsy injury and medication.
I won't delude myself but I'm more than willing and able to give him all the
comfort possible to ensure he gains the most pleasure from what little time
he has.
But how do I judge a cat that shows very little discomfort apart from when
he eats?
-L. - 14 Oct 2003 19:02 GMT
> >> 2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering
> >> less than other animals ?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> But how do I judge a cat that shows very little discomfort apart from when
> he eats?

Not interested in play, not interested in interaction, sleeps or hides
most of the time.  IME, working as a vet tech for a feline specialty
hospital, and with my own animals, you can see it in their eyes.  They
almost look at you like "let me go, please".  It's a certain look.

-L.
Napoleon - 15 Oct 2003 04:40 GMT
> > >> 2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering
> > >> less than other animals ?
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>
> -L.

We recently had the sad task of saying goodbye to an "only cat" after
19 years of companionship; this was the first time I had ever been
involved in the situation so my first hand experience is thankfully
limited.  But I spent a great deal of time reading about cats with her
particular problems (she was really doing pretty well coping with the
problems many aging cats have-CRF & hyperthyrodism, arthritis-until
just near the end when things cascaded) and a lot of people apparently
*don't* feel that they were able to *see it in their eyes* when their
pets are near the end.  I'm just saying it's not something that people
percieve with certainty in all instances; so it's not a sure-fire
guide.

My one piece of advice from our experience is that if there is going
to be an absolute optimal time to help your pet along, you may not
know it except in hindsight.  Sometimes animals look like they are
right at the edge and then they pull back and get better for a while.
Maybe a few hours, maybe a couple of days, maybe even a few weeks.
After it's all over you may not be 100% sure that the cat couldn't
have gone on longer with an acceptable quality of life.   On the flip
side, unless you decide to live those last few weeks in a vet's
office, you may not be able to get the cat to the vet to do what needs
to be done right when you decide that it's time.  A lot depends on the
nature of their problems.  As your original post implies, they can't
tell us how they are feeling, although often their behaviour gives
indications.  What I'm saying is that you just do the best you can in
terms of gauging the situation and don't beat yourself over the head
if in hindsight you decide that you acted a little too soon or a
little too late.  You can only be so precise.  In our case we took the
cat to the vet after she was nauseated and wouldn't eat or drink for a
couple of days and found out she was accumulating fluid in her lungs.
The vet concluded that she either had a heart problem or lung tumors.
Whichever it was, treatment would make her more miserable, given her
age and other problems probably not be successful, and likely cause
her kidneys to fail.  It was late in the afternoon, the vet gave the
cat some medicine to ameliorate the fluid accumulation and so we took
her home just because it was just kind of a shock to hear that the
time we had been dreading had finally come.  The cat was uncomfortable
that night, although not in acute distress. She was walking around and
interacting with us some (which was very hard emotionally) but mostly
wanted to be under the bed.  Although we took her in the first thing
next morning, we were second guessing ourselves during the night about
not having the vet put her to sleep the previous afternoon.
Thankfully she didn't have any kind of traumatic episode before we
took her that last time in the morning, although by then she was
weakening fast.  But as I said before you can only be so precise about
the timing of any action you may wind up taking.

Good luck.  Your cat is lucky to have someone as concerned as you are.
-L. - 15 Oct 2003 14:40 GMT
> > > >> 2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering
> > > >> less than other animals ?
[quoted text clipped - 51 lines]
> side, unless you decide to live those last few weeks in a vet's
> office,

IME, if you are doing this, or need to do this, it's time.

We once had a lady drag her cat back and forth to the vet four times
during the day, convinced that the cat was on his death bed, but
unable to "make the decision".  We had been trying to get her to euth
this cat for weeks.  On the fouth trip in, he expired in the car.
That poor cat's final memory was of a trip to the vet.  Not something
I would want *my* cat to have as his last experience.

Then she said "I'm so glad he did it on his own, I didn't have to make
the decision".  Sheesh.  What a disservice.

-L.
mug punter - 15 Oct 2003 20:39 GMT
> We once had a lady drag her cat back and forth to the vet four times
> during the day, convinced that the cat was on his death bed, but
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> -L.

God forbid. I salute your ability to hold your tongue.
Having typed that; Spot loves going to, and being at the vets!
[We always made the effort to make Spot's "new life experiences" as relaxing
and calming as possible when younger]
We only have to put his catbasket on the floor and he climbs straight in.
He purrs anxiously in the waiting room, checking out the dogs that haven't
noticed him.
He's always eager to get out of the basket, once on the vets table, and
happily sits there being prodded.
His normal happy purring causes the
human-on-the-other-end-of-the-stethoscope a little grief sometimes.
Napoleon - 16 Oct 2003 01:28 GMT
> > > > >> 2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering
> > > > >> less than other animals ?
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>
> IME, if you are doing this, or need to do this, it's time.

My point here is that there can be a delay in getting an animal to the
vet because of hours of operation, holidays, or other things and
unfortuntely an animal could have a critical episode and go through
some hours of trauma before you can get to the vet.  A real common
example is cats with CRF.  Cats may live fairly comfortably with CRF
for months or years and suddenly "crash". Sometimes they rebound after
one of these episodes and live pretty comfortably for a months longer;
sometimes the episode is terminal.  If the latter event happens and
you can't get to the vet right away (and I'm talking about a delay of
some hours or at most probably a day), people second-guess themselves
a lot.  But the nature of CRF, which is a terminal condition, is that
the prognosis for the immediate future the vet can give you often
isn't in black or white, it's a matter of probabilities.  A cat with
CRF might crash, then recover and have another six months or more of a
relatively comfortable existence or it might have another acute
episode next week.  So someone might make a decision to treat a CRF
cat who has crashed and then have it happen again shortly after.  Or
it might not happen again for months.  But in the meantime you can't
set up shop at the vet, so if another acute episode happens while the
vet is closed, it's easy to feel bad that the cat had to go through
the episode for some hours before you could get to the vet.  I'm sure
that there are analogous situations for other terminal conditions.

> We once had a lady drag her cat back and forth to the vet four times
> during the day, convinced that the cat was on his death bed, but
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> -L.

If this lady was being told by the vet weeks before that euthanizing
the cat was the best thing and in fact knew when the end had come, you
are absolutely right, she did the cat a great disservice.  She was
just prolonging the cat's suffering to fill her own emotional needs.
mug punter - 15 Oct 2003 20:39 GMT
>>> Thanks for the link and your kind wish.
>>> I have read several similar articles. Bless the internet!
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>>
>> -L.

Apologies to L. My newsreader failed to pick up the above post.

Thank goodness for that! I was deeply worried the signs wouldn't be so
prominent. My goal is not to let Spot get to that stage.
I can say that Spot always has an appetite but shows awkwardness and
discomfort in eating, obviously attributable to the tumour.
He may indeed show some of the signs you describe although this always
happens shortly after his medicine.
However the day after, and in the hours leading to his medication time, Spot
will appear generally in good spirits.
He acts quite normally and will often instigate interaction, be it getting
fed, played with, brushing or stroking.
Then, as if sensing a flea or itch, he totally ignores me to begin a
self-cleaning routine.
Thank you L.

> We recently had the sad task of saying goodbye to an "only cat" after
> 19 years of companionship; this was the first time I had ever been

My heartfelt sympathies, Napoleon. Spot is also our only pet.
He's not a child-substitute but is my family.

> just near the end when things cascaded) and a lot of people apparently
> *don't* feel that they were able to *see it in their eyes* when their
> pets are near the end.  I'm just saying it's not something that people
> percieve with certainty in all instances; so it's not a sure-fire
> guide.

I guess it's down to each individuals' level of compassion.

> My one piece of advice from our experience is that if there is going
> to be an absolute optimal time to help your pet along, you may not
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> Good luck.  Your cat is lucky to have someone as concerned as you are.

My sym

This is precisely what fired off my alarm bells. Obvious signs would be too
late, in my book.
We've been told he is in great pain. As others have confirmed, that cat's
hide it well, then I must accept that.
Pain aside, Spot is relatively happy unless he's drugged up, that I'm
certain.

Thank you Napoloen (thank you all) for the help, support and kind words
offered.
Karen M. - 14 Oct 2003 21:00 GMT
>>>2. Felines feel the same amount of pain but express their suffering
>>>less than other animals ?
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
> But how do I judge a cat that shows very little discomfort apart from when
> he eats?

I'll echo what some have already posted - you'll know. You know your cat
and you want what's best. Spot will tell you when it's time. You seem to
be very focused on what's best for Spot, and that will help you know
what he's trying to tell you. I'm glad you've got more time with him.
Enjoy it, and good thoughts will continue your way from me and the
critters.

karen
mug punter - 15 Oct 2003 01:46 GMT
> I'll echo what some have already posted - you'll know. You know your
> cat and you want what's best. Spot will tell you when it's time. You
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> karen

Thank you Karen and the critters :)
zuzu22@webtv.net - 14 Oct 2003 22:06 GMT
>But how do I judge a cat that shows very
>little discomfort apart from when he eats?

Several years ago, the following was written and posted by a member of a
mailing list I was on. I have found this article to be very helpful when
one is in a situation such as yours and have read it myself several
times when faced with the same decision. Although it was written about
dogs, it equally applies to cats. I hope it helps you.

Megan

How Do You Know When It's Time? by Hilary Brown

I don't subscribe to the idea that dogs "will let us know when it's
time", at least not in any conscious sense on their part. For one thing,
I've found in my years of counseling folks who have ill pets and often
accompanying them through the euthanasia process, that this notion is
often interpreted in a way that puts a lot of pressure on people when
they're already stressed and grief-stricken. "What if I miss the signs?
He looked miserable yesterday but not today. What if I act too soon or
not soon enough?? How could he ever let on that he wants it to end?? But
maybe I'm deluding myself that he feels better than he does."

Dogs are not people. We lovingly anthropomorphize our dogs during our
time together and there's no harm in that, even quite a bit of reward
for both them and us. But the bottom line is that they are not people
and they don't think in the way people think. (Many of us would argue
that that speaks to the superiority of dogs.) These amazing beings love
us and trust us implicitly. It just isn't part of their awareness that
they should need to telegraph anything to us in order for their needs to
be met or their well-being ensured. They are quite sure that we, as
their pack leaders, operate only in their best interest at all times.
Emotional selfishness is not a concept in dogdom and they don't know how
hard we sometimes have to fight against it ourselves.

Dogs also have no mindset for emotional surrender or giving up. They
have no awareness of the inevitability of death as we do and they have
no fear of it. It is fear that so often influences and aggravates our
perceptions when we are sick or dying and it becomes impossible to
separate the fear out from the actual illness after a while. But that's
not the case with dogs. Whatever we observe to be wrong with our sick
dogs, it's all illness. And we don't even see the full impact of that
until it's at a very advanced point, because it's a dog's nature to
endure and to sustain the norm at all costs. If that includes pain, then
that's the way it is. Unlike us, they have never learned that letting
pain show, or reporting on it, may generate relief or aid. So they
endure, assuming in their deepest doggy subconscious that whatever we
abide for them is what is to be abided. If there is a "look in the eye",
or an indication of giving up, that we think we see from our beloved
dogs, it isn't a conscious attitude on their part or a decision to
communicate something to us. It's just an indication of how tired and
depleted they are. But they don't know there's any option other than
struggling on, so that's what they do.

We must assume that the discomfort we see is much less than the
discomfort they really feel. And we do know of other options and it is
entirely our obligation to always offer them the best option for that
moment, be it further intervention, or none, or the gift of rest. From
the moment we embrace these animals when they first grace our lives,
every day is one day closer to the day they must abandon their very
temporary and faulty bodies and return to the state of total perfection
and rapture they have always deserved. We march along one day at a time,
watching and weighing and continuing to embrace and respect each stage
as it comes. Today is a good day. Perhaps tomorrow will be, too, and
perhaps next week and the weeks or months after.

But there will eventually be a winding down. And we must not let that
part of the cycle become our enemy. When I am faced with the ultimate
decision about how I can best serve the animal I love so much, I try to
set aside all the complications and rationales of what I may or may not
understand medically and I try to clear my mind of any of the confusions
and ups and downs that are so much a part of caring for a terminally ill
pet. This is hard to do, because for months and often years we have been
in this mode of weighing hard data, labs, food, how many ounces did he
drink, should he have his rabies shot or not, etc. But at some point
it's time to put all of that in the academic folder and open the
spiritual folder instead.

At that point we are wise to ask ourselves the question: "Does he want
to be here today, to experience this day in this way, as much as I want
him to?" Remember, dogs are not afraid, they are not carrying anxiety
and fear of the unknown. So for them it's only about whether this day
holds enough companionship and ease and routine so that they would
choose to have those things more than anything else and that they are
able to focus on those things beyond any discomfort or pain or
frustration they may feel. How great is his burden of illness this day,
and does he want/need to live through this day with this burden of
illness as much as I want/need him to? If I honestly believe that his
condition is such, his pleasures sufficient, that he would choose to
persevere, then that's the answer and we press on. If, on the other
hand, I can look honestly and bravely at the situation and admit that
he, with none of the fear or sadness that cripples me, would choose
instead to rest, then my obligation is clear. Because he needs to know
in his giant heart, beyond any doubt, that I will have the courage to
make the hard decisions on his behalf, that I will always put his peace
before my own, and that I am able to love him as unselfishly as he has
loved me.

After many years, and so very many loved ones now living on joyously in
their forever home in my heart, this is the view I take. As my
veterinarian, who is a good and loving friend, injects my precious one
with that freedom elixir, I always place my hand on top of his hand that
holds the syringe. He has chosen a life of healing animals and I know
how terribly hard it is for him to give up on one. So I want to shoulder
that burden with him so he's not alone. The law of my state says the
veterinarian is the one licensed to administer the shot, not me. But a
much higher law says this is my ultimate gift to my dog and the
responsibility that I undertook on the day I welcomed that dog into my
life forever.

                                   
Signature


"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do
nothing."

-Edmund Burke

Learn The TRUTH About Declawing
http://www.stopdeclaw.com

Zuzu's Cats Photo Album:
http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22

"Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one
elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and
splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then
providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision,
raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and
material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his
way."

- W.H. Murray

Cheryl - 15 Oct 2003 00:26 GMT
As my veterinarian, who is a good and loving friend, injects
> my precious one with that freedom elixir, I always place my hand on
> top of his hand that holds the syringe. He has chosen a life of
> healing animals and I know how terribly hard it is for him to give
> up on one. So I want to shoulder that burden with him so he's not
> alone.

I have to think about that for a while. As you know this situation is
on the front of my mind a lot these days.  I seriously doubt I could
hold the hand of his vet when the time comes, I feel that by holding
my pet in my arms that will be sharing it enough.  :(
Mary - 15 Oct 2003 00:32 GMT
> As my veterinarian, who is a good and loving friend, injects
> > my precious one with that freedom elixir, I always place my hand on
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> hold the hand of his vet when the time comes, I feel that by holding
> my pet in my arms that will be sharing it enough.  :(

When I had to have my wonderful old girl "put to sleep" I just cradled
her on my bed after they gave her the shot and spoke to her softly. It
was awful but I think she felt comforted.
Animal luva - 15 Oct 2003 01:45 GMT
>> But how do I judge a cat that shows very
>> little discomfort apart from when he eats?
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> How Do You Know When It's Time? by Hilary Brown
<snip>

Thanks, it was most helpful. I may not have agreed with all of it but I
won't argue :-)
Napoleon - 16 Oct 2003 01:45 GMT
> > He's a 13yr old neutered male cat recently diagnosed with oral squamous cell
> > carcinoma and we been advised to prepare for euthanasia.
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> http://angelshavenhere.homestead.com/makingthedecision.html

I had not run across this one before; I think it makes a lot of good
points in a very succinct manner.

> Best of luck to you,
>
> -L.
 
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