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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / October 2003Urinary crystals - How long to recover?
My cat was having some peeing problems last night so I took him to the emergency vet. They said that he was blocked and catheterized him. The urine sample showed that he had urinary crystals. They kept him overnight and I got him back tonight. They sedated him so that they could examine him shortly before I picked him up, so he has been stumbling about and pretty lethargic since he got home. He has been in the litterbox several times and seems to only be getting out a few drops at a time (a slight improvement over last night where he was getting nothing out. The vet gave him an antibiotic injection and gave me some liquid antibiotics to start giving him tomorrow. She gave me some prescription food and told me to change his diet to it for at least 3 months. I'm still pretty worried about him and was wondering how quickly cats usually recover from this. Should I be worried that he's only getting out a few drops of urine at a time? He hasn't eaten or drunk anything since he's been home, but I think that is partially due to the sedation. I'd appreciate any advice from people who have been through this before. If he's getting out only a few drops at a time, it's a very serious situation. Hope you've called the vet by now or have taken him back to the emergency clinic. > My cat was having some peeing problems last night so I took him to the > emergency vet. They said that he was blocked and catheterized him. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I'd appreciate any advice from people who have been through this > before. > My cat was having some peeing problems last night so I took him to the > emergency vet. They said that he was blocked and catheterized him. [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > I'd appreciate any advice from people who have been through this > before. After the catheterization, he may have muscle spasms for a while which is why the frequent trips to the box. When this happened with Grant, I did take him back and they gave him a shot of torbutol for the spasming. It did work but really zoned him out. Put as much water around as you can. Have they suggested a change of diet? Wet food is better than dry, so if you can switch him over that would be better. It may take a little while. Keep an eye on him. Karen > After the catheterization, he may have muscle spasms for a while > which is why the frequent trips to the box. When this happened [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Karen What connection is there between wet vs. dry food and an occluded urethra? -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" > What connection is there between wet vs. dry food and an occluded > urethra? Cats fed dry food drink more water than cats fed canned food but most of that water is lost to fecal moisture so that urine volume is lower and urine specific gravity higher in cats fed dry food. The urine concentration of all solutes, including potentially calculogenic crystalloids, depends on urine volume. The lower the urine volume the higher the concentration of solutes and the greater the risk of clumping together into larger and larger particles that eventually become crystals or uroliths that can block the urethra. Male cats have an anatomic peculiarity which makes them more susceptible to obstructions of the urethra than females. In male cats, the urethra narrows, almost like a funnel, where it passes over the pelvis into the penis so small crystals can lodge and easily plug the urethra. Even though females can contain the same substances in their urine, they have a large, somewhat strait urethra that makes plugging unlikely. Phil > > What connection is there between wet vs. dry food and an occluded > > urethra? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > particles that eventually become crystals or uroliths that can > block the urethra. Considering my current cat consumes all the water he wants and whose diet is 80-90% dry food, and considering the volume of urine and excrament, I tend to think the propensity for urinary crystals has a genetic factor. > Male cats have an anatomic peculiarity which makes them more > susceptible to obstructions of the urethra than females. I have never heard a PENIS described as an "anatomic peculiarity." Talk about catering to the man hating female readers! LOL > In male > cats, the urethra narrows, almost like a funnel, where it passes [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Phil Phil... there's something a little odd about you. LOL -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" > > > What connection is there between wet vs. dry food and an occluded > > > urethra? [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > diet is 80-90% dry food, and considering the volume of urine and > excrament, The last time we went through this, I explained to you that most of the water that cats fed dry food drink is lost to fecal moisture and the that their urine volume is lower than cats fed canned food. Also, cats fed dry food have a lower total water turnover than cats fed canned food... Did you forget that already? It was on'y about a week ago? I tend to think the propensity for urinary crystals has a > genetic factor. Feeding mostly dry food increases the risks of crystal and urolith formation.... > > Male cats have an anatomic peculiarity which makes them more > > susceptible to obstructions of the urethra than females. > > I have never heard a PENIS described as an "anatomic peculiarity." > Talk about catering to the man hating female readers! LOL I think you have a serious reading comprehension problem... I didn't say the male cat's penis is an anatomic pecularity. I said the anatomic pecularity in male cats is the way the "urethra narrows, almost like a funnel, where it passes over the pelvis into the penis" so small crystals can lodge and easily plug the urethra. Here read it again: > > In male > > cats, the urethra narrows, almost like a funnel, where it passes [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Phil... there's something a little odd about you. LOL Yeah, I know a little more about feline anatomy and physiology than you... Actually, you don't come off as the brightest bulb in the lamp... The first step towards gaining knowledge is accepting your ignorance... I realize that's a lot for you to accept, but give it a try... In a few months you might actually know something about cats! >snip< > > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > turnover than cats fed canned food... Did you forget that already? > It was on'y about a week ago? I didn't buy it. Ok? Give me your address and I'll send you a couple of days worth of feces. This cat waters himself very well so to suggest most of the water he drinks escapes with his feces is false. I scoop the box... and keep the food and water dishes topped off. I know better than you what goes in ... and what comes out. And, this cat has always pissed like a race horse. -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" > I tend to think the propensity for urinary crystals has a > > genetic factor. [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > a try... In a few months you might actually know something about > cats! > >snip< > > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > I didn't buy it. Ok? I see that... What part didn't you understand? Was the math too complicated for you? Or are you just obtuse? Why do you think the *first line* treatment for cats with crystalluria, urolithiasis, and CRF is *canned* food? Or are you normally not that inquisitive? > to suggest most of the water he drinks escapes with his feces is > false. Really? You're another one who thinks you're better informed than highly trained and experienced clinical researchers... ...This has been a well-known and well-documented *fact* for >20 years.... "Cats fed dry food drink more water than cats fed canned food but much of this water contributes to fecal moisture so that urine volume is lower and urine specific gravity higher in cats fed dry food" "Total water to dry matter ratio (TH2O/DM) was 5.6 on canned, 2.8 on semimoist, and 2.4 on dry food. Cats fed dry food drank more than six times more water than cats fed canned food, but the urine volume was significantly lower in cats fed dry food" (Water balance in the dog and cat." J Small Anim Pract 23:588, 1982; "Nutrition in diseases of the urinary tract in the dog and cat." in Vet Annu 25:383, 1985) This means the concentration of solutes in the urine is higher in cats fed dry food because the urine volume is lower. This increases the risk of crystal and urolith formation. From the NRC: "A number of studies have been conducted in which the ratio of free water to dry matter intake of cats has been measured .... "....these data showed that for commercial dry foods the ratio of water to dry matter intake varied from 2.0 to 2.8.1 and for canned foods from 3.0 to 5.7: 1." (IOW, cats fed canned food have 150% to 200% *higher* TH2O/DM than cats fed dry food.) "All studies on water and dry matter intakes of cats indicate higher total free water to dry matter ratios for cats given commercial canned food diets than for cats given commercial dry foods. That is, cats given dry food do not voluntarily consume water to equal the ratio of water to dry matter of cats given canned diets containing about 75 percent moisture." (Excerpted from: The National Research Counsel's "Nutrient Requirements of the Cat":) What that means, is that cats fed dry food do not voluntarily consume enough water to facilitate excretion of the urea load from the diet as efficiently as cats fed canned food. This is why most vets recommend canned food for cats with CRF.. I scoop the box... and keep the food and water dishes topped > off. I know better than you what goes in ... and what comes out. You cannot know with any degree of accuracy without actual measurements. > > > snip< > > > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I see that... What part didn't you understand? Was the math too > complicated for you? Or are you just obtuse? Don't take the rejection PERSONALLY. ;-) > Why do you think the *first line* treatment for cats with > crystalluria, urolithiasis, and CRF is *canned* food? Or are you > normally not that inquisitive? In nearly 60 years of having cats around (I am older than that), I've never had to haul one off to the vet for a clogged urethra. Interpret that as you see fit. > > to suggest most of the water he drinks escapes with his feces is > > false. > > Really? You're another one who thinks you're better informed than > highly trained and experienced clinical researchers... ...This has > been a well-known and well-documented *fact* for >20 years.... Yes, really. Animal medical care is just as confused over what is heatly and what is not ... from month to month .. as the human medical care profession, if not more so. Medical students who could not make the grade treating people settle for veterinary school. The pay scale difference tells all. > "Cats fed dry food drink more water than cats fed canned food but > much of this water contributes to fecal moisture so that urine > volume is lower and urine specific gravity higher in cats fed dry > food" A nice pat response that probably does not apply as often as it does. > "Total water to dry matter ratio (TH2O/DM) was 5.6 on canned, 2.8 > on semimoist, and 2.4 on dry food. Cats fed dry food drank more [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > 1982; "Nutrition in diseases of the urinary tract in the dog and > cat." in Vet Annu 25:383, 1985) Fine trite little quote. Obviously the cats I've had are exceptional to laboratory subjects. > I scoop the box... and keep the food and water dishes topped > > off. I know better than you what goes in ... and what comes out. > > You cannot know with any degree of accuracy without actual > measurements. Can we ask your mother about your "output" during the formative years? She would know precisely your delivery volumes and frequency. LOL. -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" > > > > snip< > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Don't take the rejection PERSONALLY. ;-) LOL! Don't worry, I don't take your obtusness personally... > > Why do you think the *first line* treatment for cats with > > crystalluria, urolithiasis, and CRF is *canned* food? Or are you [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > never had to haul one off to the vet for a clogged urethra. > Interpret that as you see fit. *Luck*! > > > to suggest most of the water he drinks escapes with his feces is > > > false. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Yes, really. Animal medical care is just as confused over what is > heatly and what is not ... Nope! There's no confusion about that... > > "Cats fed dry food drink more water than cats fed canned food but > > much of this water contributes to fecal moisture so that urine > > volume is lower and urine specific gravity higher in cats fed dry > > food" > A nice pat response that probably does not apply as often as it does. Denial is great, isn't it? It helps you avoid accepting painful realities! LOL! > > "Total water to dry matter ratio (TH2O/DM) was 5.6 on canned, 2.8 > > on semimoist, and 2.4 on dry food. Cats fed dry food drank more [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Fine trite little quote. Obviously the cats I've had are exceptional > to laboratory subjects. Naa, you've just been lucky... > > I scoop the box... and keep the food and water dishes topped > > > off. I know better than you what goes in ... and what comes out. > > > > You cannot know with any degree of accuracy without actual > > measurements. > > > > > snip< > > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > LOL! Don't worry, I don't take your obtusness personally... Nor I, your sterile arrogance. Are you British too? ;-) > > > Why do you think the *first line* treatment for cats with > > > crystalluria, urolithiasis, and CRF is *canned* food? Or are [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > *Luck*! I do not think so. Too many years of having cats following me home, taking up residence, and living to ripe old ages. I DO think there's a lot of misinformation promulgated by hysterical and overly maternal women. Also, the veterinary profession is not entirely benevolent ... shall we say. They have office staff, car and house payments too. > > > > to suggest most of the water he drinks escapes with his > > > > feces is false. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Nope! There's no confusion about that... Yup. That your patients cannot verbalize their problems is the ONLY reason you can say there is no confusion. > > > "Cats fed dry food drink more water than cats fed canned food > > > but much of this water contributes to fecal moisture so that [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Denial is great, isn't it? It helps you avoid accepting painful > realities! LOL! Hehehhe. Denial is a major factor in achieving old age. ;-) Think about it. If you really knew how your body was decaying, you would call Dr. Kavorkian at age 50. ;-) > > > "Total water to dry matter ratio (TH2O/DM) was 5.6 on canned, > > > 2.8 on semimoist, and 2.4 on dry food. Cats fed dry food [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Naa, you've just been lucky... Again, I reject your assertion. Veterinary professionals want me to believe that I cannot possibly provide a healthy home for my pets without their "help." Whooey. Been doing it for longer than you've been alive, apparently. I'll call a vet when a pet needs surgical repairs from fights with other animals or with vehicles. Don't expect maintenance visits. -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" > > > > > > snip< > > > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Nor I, your sterile arrogance. Are you British too? ;-) You're obviously mistaken "arrogance" for "aplomb"! LOL! > > > > Why do you think the *first line* treatment for cats with > > > > crystalluria, urolithiasis, and CRF is *canned* food? Or are [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > I do not think so. Too many years of having cats following me home, My Grandmother had cats for 85 years... and she didn't know anything about cats, either. It amazes me how some people equate just having cats for X number years, with actually knowing something about them.... >snip< > > > > Nor I, your sterile arrogance. Are you British too? ;-) > > You're obviously mistaken "arrogance" for "aplomb"! LOL! Mr. Spock (Star Trek) had "aplomb. ;-) > > I do not think so. Too many years of having cats following me > > home, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > just having cats for X number years, with actually knowing > something about them.... I qualified my statement. The scope of medical problems you and Liz carry on about ... cats I have owned never experienced. Diabetes? Fatty livers? Crystals clogging the urethra? Leukemia? I must NOT have been doing something you people do. All I have ever asked of vets is to stitch up the injuries and to euthanize the cats when their time was near. A 17-19 year average lifespan and good health is pretty decent. -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" > >snip< > > > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > I qualified my statement. The scope of medical problems you and Liz > carry on about ... The difference is Liz does not speak from experience... only what she's read in her chemistry set manual.... She also has a species problem - she applies human theories to cats.... cats I have owned never experienced. Diabetes? > Fatty livers? Crystals clogging the urethra? Leukemia? I must NOT > have been doing something you people do. All I have ever asked of > vets is to stitch up the injuries and to euthanize the cats when > their time was near. A 17-19 year average lifespan and good health > is pretty decent. Good for you! I wish you and you cats continued good luck. My last three cats lived to 20, 19, and 22! ...But even though I have many years of experience working with cats and vets, I still consider myself lucky. > > Fatty livers? Crystals clogging the urethra? Leukemia? I > > must NOT have been doing something you people do. All I have [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > have many years of experience working with cats and vets, I still > consider myself lucky. I was raised with the notion about cats that they would eat properly and be healthy when left to their own devices. Just protect them from danger (often each other). So far (for nearly 60 yrs of cat ownership), you say I have been lucky. I'd rather be lucky than smart. ;-) But I still keep my ears and eyes open. -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" > I qualified my statement. The scope of medical problems you and Liz > carry on about ... cats I have owned never experienced. Diabetes? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > their time was near. A 17-19 year average lifespan and good health > is pretty decent. Out of the ones you list, only two of my cats had one of them and that was struvites (urinary crystals). These two are siblings. There are many factors involved, that is, saying that a cat fed only dry will have urinary crystals is not necessarily true. But saying that feeding canned prevents them is true. You said your cats have always fed on 80-90% dry food. How about the other 10-20%? Milk? You could say that the probability of developing uroliths is proportional to how much liquid the cat ingests. More liquid, less probable. Whatever you´re doing seems to be right so I´d stick to it. > After the catheterization, he may have muscle spasms for a while which is > why the frequent trips to the box. When this happened with Grant, I did take [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Karen My cat is a little better today. He has had a couple of large puddles today along with numerous little ones. He seems to be peeing wherever the urge hits him though which I'm hoping he'll stop doing. I put him, his litterbox & his food in a room with a tile floor to try to make him use the box instead of the chair, carpet, wall, etc. I don't think he's still blocked because he's getting out plenty of pee. I'm going to call the vet tomorrow to see what she says about it. She suggested changing his diet to Hill's Prescription diet C/D-S for 3 months and then talk to her about some kind of maintenance food. She gave me some wet food for him, but said if he wouldn't eat it, dry was fine. He won't even go near the wet food, so I ordered some dry & he's eating his regular food until that comes. > She suggested changing his diet to Hill's Prescription diet C/D-S for > 3 months This worked wonders for Hodge.  Signaturehttp://www.mindspring.com/~slywy/ http://slywy.diaryland.com/ > My cat was having some peeing problems last night so I took him to the > emergency vet. They said that he was blocked and catheterized him. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > seems to only be getting out a few drops at a time (a slight > improvement over last night where he was getting nothing out. Take your cat back to the vet *immediately*. Complete or partial obstruction of the urinary tract can produces a pathophysiologic state equivalent to oliguric acute renal failure! Phil > Take your cat back to the vet *immediately*. Complete or partial obstruction > of the urinary tract can produces a pathophysiologic state equivalent to > oliguric acute renal failure! > > Phil He's back in the hospital as of about 2 hours ago. They catheterized him again and are keeping him in the hospital to be monitored for a few days. Do cats usually recover from this? They're not very forthcoming with the information at this vet hospital. -Rachael >From: rlbarry@hotmail.com (Rachael) >He's back in the hospital as of about 2 hours ago. They catheterized >him again and are keeping him in the hospital to be monitored for a >few days. > >Do cats usually recover from this? They're not very forthcoming with >the information at this vet hospital. I believe they usually do, but the most important thing is to change his diet so he doesn't have chronic urinary problems. If you keep him on dry food, it most likely will get blocked again, and again, and may end up eventually needing a pensiotomy (I know this isn't right, but it's the operation where they remove the cat's penis to make the urethea opening larger). The best thing you can do is get your cat on an all wet diet. It may take some doing to switch him over, but I seen a lot of finicky cats switched. You might have to start out wetting down his dry food until he gets used to the texture of a moist food. Another option is to make a powder out of the kibble and then sprinkle it on top and/or mix it in with canned food. Another thing you may want to try as well is getting one of those cat drinking fountains to entice him to drink more water. Good luck and I hope your kitty gets well soon. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >Another thing you may >want to try as well is getting one of those cat drinking fountains to entice >him to drink more water. I just bought a Drinkwell fountain hoping to get my cat to drink more water because I can't get her to eat anything other than dry food. She's also a little scaredy cat, very timid, and doesn't like new or different things. We are also both recovering from our recent loss. And I didn't want to put her under unnecessary stress but she took to it right away. She drinks from it and plays around in it Maybe she won't like it after the novelty wears off but she surprised me by drinking from it immediately. Good luck. > > Another thing you may > > want to try as well is getting one of those cat drinking [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > food. She's also a little scaredy cat, very timid, and doesn't > like new or different things. Are you like that too? > We are also both recovering from our > recent loss. And I didn't want to put her under unnecessary [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Good luck. -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" > I believe they usually do, but the most important thing is to change his diet > so he doesn't have chronic urinary problems. If you keep him on dry food, it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > thing you can do is get your cat on an all wet diet. It may take some doing to > switch him over, but I seen a lot of finicky cats switched. He's still at the hospital. I just called to check on him and they say he's urinating through the catheter fine, but he's not eating anything. He didn't eat anything here at home since Friday afternoon, so that's the biggest thing I'm worried about now. I asked the vets what could be done about him not eating and they said they'd send him home with appetite stimulants. I think a big part of the not eating thing is that they're giving him wet food. He absolutely won't eat it. Every time I've tried to give it to him since he was a kitten he has refused it. The vet said that I could feed him the dry Hills Prescription Diet C/D-S food....she said either wet or dry was fine. -Rachael Hi Rachael, > He's still at the hospital. I just called to check on him and they > say he's urinating through the catheter fine, but he's not eating > anything. He didn't eat anything here at home since Friday afternoon, > so that's the biggest thing I'm worried about now. Many male cats with partial or complete urethral obstructions develop postrenal azotemia (uremia) because they're unable to eliminate toxic waste products from protein catobolism. Azotemia makes a cat feel queasy and not feel like eating. As the azotermia diminishes, his appetite should improve. It seems like you caught the obstruction in time so hopefully no permanent damage has been done to his urethra. Its also possible that his anorexia may be caused by a combination of non-pathological factors. Please keep in mind that most cats are reluctant to eat when they're in the clinic due to stress and an unfamiliar environment. Also, he may have refused the canned food because he may be simply used to dry food. Cats are very sensitive to the texture of foods. Texture preferences are usually influenced from a young age. Cats accustomed to dry or canned food often refuse foods with a different texture. So you may need to make the transition to canned food gradually. I asked the vets > what could be done about him not eating and they said they'd send him > home with appetite stimulants. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > I could feed him the dry Hills Prescription Diet C/D-S food....she > said either wet or dry was fine. Although the dry c/d-s is similarly formulated as the canned and should inhibit struvite formation, I've found the dry c/d-s to be less efficacious than the canned version. Cats fed canned food have a greater water intake and higher water turnover than cats fed dry food. A higher water turnover results in more frequent urination which helps eliminate potentially calculogenic particles before they can "grow" into larger crystals that can interfere with normal urination. The longer that crystalline particles remain in the urinary tract, the larger and larger they can grow and the more likely they are to cause an obstruction. However, its most important that eats! The dry c/d-s is certainly better than a non-prescription diet or nothing. You might want to wait until this crisis is over before trying to make the transition to canned food. He's under too much stress right now, an abrupt change in texture could turn result in an aversion to food and serious anorexia - which lead to a serious liver disorder. Best of luck. Phil > -Rachael > It seems like you caught the obstruction in time so hopefully no permanent > damage has been done to his urethra. I spoke with the vet again this morning and she said that he is still urinating fine through the catheter. She's going to remove it tonight or tomorrow morning and then observe him for a day to make sure he doesn't block again. She said that if he blocked again, I would have to decide whether to try again with the catheter or to put him down. Are those my only two options? Surely there is something else that can be done for him if he keeps blocking. I really don't like this vet at all & I'm worried that she might just give up on him. He's only 5 years old and has never been sick before this. I'm so worried. -Rachael > > It seems like you caught the obstruction in time so hopefully no permanent > > damage has been done to his urethra. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > he keeps blocking. I really don't like this vet at all & I'm worried > that she might just give up on him. Rachael, Your instincts are absolutely correct! If your cat blocks repeatedly a perineal urethrostomy can be performed. This procedure literally turns a male cat into an anatomical female and creates a urethral opening too wide to become obstructed. Perineal urethrostomy is a common procedure that has saved the lives of literally thousands of cats. Very few cats are euthanized today due to urinary tract obstructions. The few cats that are euthanized are usually the result of the owner declining the the procedure, not being advised of the procedure or because they can't or just don't to spend the money, and in some cases (usually male owners) because they anthropomorphize and have the silly notion that the procedure "takes the cat's manhood away". Fortunately, cats do not attach the same emotional bondage to surgery as humans. The fact your vet did not suggest this very *common* and life-saving alternative leads me to seriously question your vet's competency and/or surgical skill. In fact, I'm now very suspicious that she may have damaged your cat's urethra during catheterization - this is not an uncommon consequence with vets who lack expertise or skill. > He's only 5 years old and has never been sick before this. I'm so > worried. Please do not worry yourself! Your cat does not need to euthanized. However, I would be worried about your cat being under that vet's care. I strongly suggest you contact the American College of Veterinary Surgeons without delay. You can do a search for an ACVS Diplomate in your area at http://www.acvs.org/acvssearch.html or by calling 301-913-9550, x. 1 or e-mail acvs@aol.com . If you cannot find an ACVS surgeon in your area, go to http://www.acvim.org/Kittleson/search.htm and do a search for an internal medicine Diplomate/Specialist in your area. American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine Diplomates are about the best there is. If you can't find an ACVIM specialist in your area, my third choice would be an ABVP Diplomate/Feline Specialist (American Board of Veterinary Practitioners). Go to http://www.abvp.com/diplosearch1.htm http://www.abvp.com/ If you live near a veterinary university, that would be my next choice. If all else fails, call local vets in your area and ask if they're eperiences in performing perineal urethrostomes. *Please* do not a rash decision based on the advice of that vet. Please get a second opinion. I'm *sure* you'll be very pleasantly surprised! ;) Good luck. Phil. > Your instincts are absolutely correct! If your cat blocks repeatedly a > perineal urethrostomy can be performed. I called Darby's old vet today and asked her about any surgical options there might be for him and she told me about this surgery. She said that she doesn't perform them, but said that I could probably call around and find a vet in the area who does. She thought it was very premature of this emergency vet to be talking about putting him down since he's so young & this is his first time with this problem. > The fact your vet did not suggest this very *common* and life-saving > alternative leads me to seriously question your vet's competency and/or > surgical skill. The vet I'm working with right now isn't Darby's regular vet. He hasn't been sick since I moved to this area, so we hadn't been to a vet. His old vet is a couple of towns over. That's the one I called today. The only reason we ended up with this vet is because she was on call the night I took him to the emergency hospital. If he blocks again after I get him home, I'm going to take him up to the other vet because she offered me a lot more options when I spoke with her today. > I strongly suggest you contact the American College of Veterinary Surgeons > without delay. I saw you recommend that organization to someone else in a different post this afternoon and emailed them. I did the search on their site and found a vet that specializes in urinary surgery in Columbus, OH (I'm in Akron, OH). I emailed her to ask her opinion on Darby's situation. I also asked her to refer me to a surgeon in the Cleveland/Akron area if she knew of one. I can drive him down to Columbus though if I can't find a suitable surgeon in this area. It's only a couple of hours. This is all assuming he needs the surgery after I get him back. > *Please* do not a rash decision based on the advice of that vet. Please get > a second opinion. I'm *sure* you'll be very pleasantly surprised! ;) That vet lost all credibility with me this morning when she mentioned the possibility of putting him to sleep. I would never consider that unless I had tried every other option and he was still suffering. I went to visit him at the hospital today. He's hooked up to an IV and the urinary catheter and was pretty droopy when I got there. I pet him for a while and gave him a little bowl of his regular food. He ate 4 or 5 bites of the food while I was there which is probably the first food he has eaten since Friday night. He perked up a little after I had been there about 30 minutes. Thank you all so much for replying to me. You've been very helpful. I'll keep checking in as I find out more. -Rachael Rachael, For Phil to mention perineal urethrostomy at this point was premature and irresponsible. This is a surgery that should only be considered as a "last resort" after a cat has had repeated blockages over time. Since this is your cat's first time with this problem it is not something that should be considered. You are better off getting this cat on a strictly canned dietto prevent further problems. I know he is on dry food now, so until you can switch him over you should be giving him at least 100 mls of sub-q fluids each day. This is very easy to do (your vet can show you) and will keep your cat's water intake high and his bladder flushed, which will probably stop him from blocking while the crystals resolve and you switch him to wet food. Dry food is a disaster waiting to happen for cats such as yours. This is highly preferable to doing a drastic surgery and in all likelihood will solve the problem. I have done these things myself many times with 100% success. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Rachael, > > For Phil to mention perineal urethrostomy at this point was premature > and irresponsible. In your long-standing, deep-seeded pathological vendetta, you obviously missed where Rachael said: "She said that if he blocked again, I would have to decide whether to try again with the catheter or to put him down." ...and where I said: "*Please* do not make a rash decision based on the advice of that vet. Please get a second opinion". Obviously (well may be not obviously to you) a specialist would determine whether or not his urethra sustained permanent damage and if a perineal urethrostomy is necessary. Or do you think a specialist would rush into a perineal urethrostomy without examining the urethra??? My suggestion of a perineal urethrostomy, since you didn't figure it out, was an alternative to euthanasia if there were no other options..... You also obviously don't that the pressure of straining to urinate can drive a crystal deep into the lining of the urethra causing permanent damage that can interfere with normal urination. You're also oblivious to fact that catheterization itself, if not performed correctly, can also damage the urethra. Gee, maybe that's why he's urinating fine through the catheter.... > you should be giving him at least 100 mls of sub-q fluids each day. Dangerous advice... considering you don't know if his urethra sustained permanent damage.... Fluid therapy in a cat with an impaired ability to urinate can drive the cat into acute renal failure. Stick to cleaning peoples' toilet bowls and stay out of matters you obviously know nothing about before your "advice" kills a cat. Phil wrote: <snip unnecessary personal attacks, etc.> Who has the vendetta? Who is resorting to nasty and unnecessary insults? What I wrote was based on my own experience and protocols set by veterinarians with real medical experience. If the cat is urinating then fluids are definitely called for to up his water intake and keep his bladder flushed. It's unfortunate that you allow your intense need to insult, bully and harangue ANYONE who disagrees with you to get in the way of helping a cat. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Who has the vendetta? You. ...and you've had one for years. <"innocent" self-righteous BS snipped> > What I wrote was based on my own experience and protocols set by > veterinarians with real medical experience. If the cat is urinating Ahhhh.... "If the cat is urinating".... So good of you to add that....after. I'm so happy you've learned something from this. My time wasn't wasted... Phil wrote: >Ahhhh.... "If the cat is urinating".... So >good of you to add that....after. It is a foregone conclusion that if the cat is brought home and not at the vet catheterized he in all likelihood *is* urinating, but that was not what I was addressing. My post directly addressed making sure her cat got enough water while she was switching from dry food to wet. If you want to treat the OP as if she is an idiot, that's your prerogative. I happen to believe she is quite capable of understanding the obvious. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Phil wrote: > >Ahhhh.... "If the cat is urinating".... So [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > you want to treat the OP as if she is an idiot, that's your prerogative. > I happen to believe she is quite capable of understanding the obvious. Megan, perhaps you missed the latest updates. Something like 14 hours ago Rachael said, > I went to visit him at the hospital today. He's hooked up to an IV > and the urinary catheter and was pretty droopy when I got there. I > pet him for a while and gave him a little bowl of his regular food. > He ate 4 or 5 bites of the food while I was there which is probably > the first food he has eaten since Friday night. He perked up a little > after I had been there about 30 minutes. She also said the vet had told her that if he didn't improve euthanasia might be the only option. This is a very ill cat, and while I too cringe at the thought of subjecting a cat to P/U surgery before other options have been explored, this might be Rachael's cat's only hope. -Alison in OH Alison wrote: >She also said the vet had told her that if >he didn't improve euthanasia might be the >only option. I believe that was already discussed. Euthanasia is certainly NOT an option, especially when this is the first time this cat has had this issue. The vet that said it was is an idiot that should not be in practice. >This is a very ill cat, and while I too >cringe at the thought of subjecting a cat to >P/U surgery before other options have >been explored, this might be Rachael's >cat's only hope. I disagree. First, she should get the cat to a vet that wants to solve the problem instead of kill the cat. Obstruction in cats can often take up to a week to get under control and what this cat is going through right now is not uncommon and certainly not a reason to consider such a drastic measure as PU surgery. I have dealt with this exact same situation twice in the last year, once with a foster cat I have in another home, and once with a cat I was petsitting. The foster cat was hospitalized and catheterized twice and once his bladder was flushed he was put on a high quality striclty canned diet (not Science Diet) and was given an acidifier in pill form. His urine ph was monitored regularly and it's been nearly a year and he has never had another recurrence. The second cat became blocked while I was petsitting for him and I had to hospitalize him. He was there for several days and blocked several times, but they finally got things to start getting better. His owner could not come home early so I was responsible for all aftercare which lasted another week after the cat came home before his owner returned. He was given medication and I gave him subq's every day (150 mls as he was a very large cat), fed him canned food only and watched him like a hawk, going over to the house extra times each day to check on him and counting every urine clump in the litterbox. He never had any more blockages and has done fine on a canned food diet ever since. So what I am saying is this: since this is the first time this cat has had issues it doesn't make sense to take such a drastic measure as PU surgery, which has its own very serious set of problems, when other less invasive, and usually successful, protocols have not been tried. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Alison wrote: > >She also said the vet had told her that if > >he didn't improve euthanasia might be the > >only option. > > I believe that was already discussed. Not by you it wasn't. You made no comment on the vet's absurd suggestion of euthanasia, but you said my suggestion of perineal urethrostomy as an alternative to euthanasia if normal urine flow could not be re-established.was "premature and irresponsible"....... Euthanasia is certainly NOT an > option, So wise of you to add that... after.... How come the vet's suggestion of euthanasia didn't bother you before, but my suggestion of perineal urethrostomy as an alternative to euthanasia did? Huh? <song and dance routine snipped> Next time, remember the old Chinese proverb: "Lift a stone to throw only to drop on your own feet." Phil wrote: >> I believe that was already discussed. >> Not by you it wasn't. You made no [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > re-established.was "premature and > irresponsible"....... It was. The point had already been made regarding the euthanasia and Rachael had made it clear she was looking for other options, so why would I need to revisit that? I directly addressed aftercare that would help prevent a recurrence and in all likelihood eliminate the need for surgery. I then did have to bring it up in another post to clarify, since it seems some people here can't read. Megan Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray Megan wrote >> >> I believe that was already discussed. >> Phil wrote: > >> Not by you it wasn't. You made no > > comment on the vet's absurd suggestion [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > It was. No, Megan it was not. But hey, denial suits you... It prevents you from accepting embarrassing realities... Perineal urethrostomy certainly *is* a viable alternative to euthanasia.... and that's *exactly* what Rachael was inquiring about... alternatives to euthanasia if normal urine flow could not be re-established. But you missed that because you were more interested in attacking my suggestion than Rachael's concerns. >The point had already been made regarding the euthanasia Yes! My suggestion of perineal urethrostomy as a viable alternative to euthanasia if normal urine flow could not be re-established -- which you criticized and *opposed*... So from your point of view, the point was *not* made... What was *really* premature was your advising a maintenance therapeutic plan while the cat is experiencing a urologic crisis, and irresponsible and *dangerous* advising Rachael to take her cat off a prescription diet specifically designed to dissolve struvite just because you have a pathological obsession and hatred for Hills. "Once you jump on a Tiger's back, its difficult to alight without being eaten".... Phil wrote: >>It was. > No, Megan it was not. But hey, denial > suits you... It prevents you from > accepting embarrassing realities... Here is an embarassing realty for you, since you chose to post a blatant lie. Rachael herself earlier in the thread said: "That vet lost all credibility with me this morning when she mentioned the possibility of putting him to sleep. I would never consider that unless I had tried every other option and he was still suffering." So, again, it *was* discussed. There was no need for me to bring that issue up again as I agreed with her entirely and it was clear that she was not going to do it. > Perineal urethrostomy certainly *is* a > viable alternative to euthanasia.... I never once have said it wasn't. All along I have said it should be a last resort. Not that it should not be considered at all. >and > that's *exactly* what Rachael was [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > attacking my suggestion than Rachael's > concerns. I was more interested in offering other less invasive options, that have been shown to be successful, which she could try first, which is exactly what I did. You, OTOH, did not qualify your offer of PU as an option with the caveat that it is a last resort and that other things should be tried first, nor did you even mention the risks. You've done that when discussing the surgery in other threads, but here it was mysteriously absent. > What was *really* premature was your > advising a maintenance therapeutic plan > while the cat is experiencing a urologic > crisis Another LIE. I said what she could do to increase his water intake while trying to switch from dry to a canned diet. That's entirely different. >and irresponsible and > *dangerous* advising Rachael to take her > cat off a prescription diet specifically > designed to dissolve struvite just > because you have a pathological > obsession and hatred for Hills. This is an outright LIE. I have NEVER once said she should take her cat off the prescription diet. What I did say is that if the cat didn't like the prescription food she did have another option that would work. Your desperation and willingness to blatantly lie and misrepresent what I said to harrass and attack me is truly pathetic (but typical.) > "Once you jump on a Tiger's back, its > difficult to alight without being > eaten".... And if you have any sense, Phil (which I doubt), you'll take this to heart. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Phil wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Here is an embarassing realty for you, I don't think so... I'm not embarrased in the least.... since you chose to post a blatant > lie. "Blatant lie" woooo.... You haven't lost your flair for melodrama. :LOL! Of course I posted no "blatant lie".. I don't have to lie.... ... > Rachael herself earlier in the thread said: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > issue up again as I agreed with her entirely and it was clear that she > was not going to do it. You may have *thought* you "agreed with her entirely"... But you made no comment on the vet's absurd suggestion of euthanasia. And yes, there was a need for you to bring it up agaun... to give Rachael the added reassurance that her vet's suggestion of euthanasia was absurd. Its called moral support in a time of crisis... She's very upset and worried... or didn't you notice? > > Perineal urethrostomy certainly *is* a > > viable alternative to euthanasia.... > > I never once have said it wasn't. All along I have said it should be a > last resort. Not that it should not be considered at all. How nice of you... Since Rachael said: "If he keeps blocking.".."Are those my only two options?". If he keeps blocking and normal urine flow can't be re-established, I'd say its time for the last resort.... > >and > > that's *exactly* what Rachael was [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > been shown to be successful, which she could try first, which is exactly > what I did. Her cat is in a *urologic crisis*, for chrissake! Her cat does not have the time to "try this and try that" and wait to see what happens.. A non-prescription canned diet will not dissolve crystals and urololiths that are large enough to cause an obstruction. You, OTOH, did not qualify your offer of PU as an option > with the caveat that it is a last resort Really? I distinctly said: "If your cat blocks repeatedly a perineal urethrostomy can be performed." That certainly qualifies my suggestion... You seem to be having a problem following the sequence of events... Let me bring you up to speed. I made the suggestion of perineal urethrostomy *after* Rachael posted: "She said that if he blocked again, I would have to decide whether to try again with the catheter or to put him down. Are those my only two options? Surely there is something else that can be done for him if he keeps blocking." "If he keeps blocking.".."Are those my only two options?". Did you get that? Here, I want to make sure you understood exactly what Rachael said "If he keeps blocking.".."Are those my only two options?". She was talking about the *immediate* crisis... and alternatives to euthanasia... ..... and that other things should be > tried first, Her cat is in a *urologic crisis*, for chrissake! . nor did you even mention the risks. You've done that when > discussing the surgery in other threads, but here it was mysteriously > absent. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Another LIE. More melodrama! LOL! Hardly a lie...The cat is *still* in a urologic crisis I said what she could do to increase his water intake while > trying to switch from dry to a canned diet. That's entirely different. No, it is not entirely different, you said :: "You are better off getting this cat on a strictly canned dietto prevent further problems." You did *not* stipulate that the canned diet *should* be the canned version of *Prescription c/d-s* or a similarly formulated prescription diet designed to *dissolve the crystals* that her cat *already* has! You simply said "a canned diet"... You also *distinctly* said *to prevent further problems*... What about her cat's *immediate*..and *present* blovkage problem? Huh? . "I know he is on dry food now, so until you can switch him over you should be giving him at least 100 mls of sub-q fluids each day". That's more very *dangerous* and potentially *deadly* advice! Advising her to give her cat fluid therapy while her cat's blockage problem has not been resolved. Fluid therapy can easily thow a blocking cat into *acute renal failure*... . > >and irresponsible and > > *dangerous* advising Rachael to take her [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > This is an outright LIE. I don't think so... I have NEVER once said she should take her cat > off the prescription diet. What I did say is that if the cat didn't like > the prescription food she did have another option that would work. err, that certainly *is*advising her take her cat off the prescription diet! If her cat doesn't like canned Prescription Diet c/d-s, why didn't you suggest she speak to her vet about *another* similarly formulated canned *prescription* diet designed to *dissolve the crystals*? You said: "You are better off getting this cat on a strictly canned dietto prevent further problems. I know he is on dry food now, so until you can switch him over you should be giving him at least 100 mls of sub-q fluids each day. " Your > desperation and willingness to blatantly lie and misrepresent what I > said to harrass LOL! I quoted you *exactly*! I have no reason to be "desperate"... My suggestions were sound. Yours, OTOH, were not. That's why you're trying desperately to convolute the issue and backpeddle.. > and attack me is truly pathetic (but typical.) "Attack" you? LOL! Awww, poor little self-righteous innocent victim Megan.... LOL! Too bad most of the people in the group don't know you as well as I do. Remember, as usual, you came at me *first* with your derogatory remark -- calling my suggestion "irresponsible". ... . ... . > > "Once you jump on a Tiger's back, its > > difficult to alight without being > > eaten".... > > And if you have any sense, Phil (which I doubt), you'll take this to > heart. I think it applies to you perfectly.... Phil wrote: <snip lies and misrepresentations> Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Alison wrote: > >She also said the vet had told her that if [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > issue. The vet that said it was is an idiot that should not be in > practice. How is Rachael supposed to know that except for a vaguely uncomfortable feeling that led her to post on this board? She asks, "Is euthanasia the ONLY option?" The answer is, "No, euthanasia is being considered prematurely, there are many more options including surgical ones." It's a simple exchange of information that has led Rachael to pursue a second opinion. Easy peasy. However I think it is quite ill-advised for you, an anonymous poster on a newsgroup, to presume to promote a specific treatment on a cat you've never seen based on your experience with two cats. > >This is a very ill cat, and while I too > >cringe at the thought of subjecting a cat to [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > right now is not uncommon and certainly not a reason to consider such a > drastic measure as PU surgery. YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. This *might* be Rachael's cat's only hope. It will take a PROFESSONAL VETERINARY opinion to determine whether that's true or not. > I have dealt with this exact same situation twice in the last year, once > with a foster cat I have in another home, and once with a cat I was > petsitting. [snip] That's just super and I'm sure that's something to be proud of. For what it's worth my own cat has been living with FLUTD quite happily for four YEARS on a premium-quality canned food diet, non-prescription. I feel I have a handle on the etiology of this disease, but without knowing the specifics of Rachael's cat's illness or other complications that might be involved, the last thing I'm going to do is tell her to take him home from the emergency vet and force sub-q fluids through him while considering her #1 priority to be getting him on a wet diet. This may or may not be a good idea, what she needs is a COMPETENT HANDS-ON VETERINARY opinion. > So what I am saying is this: since this is the first time this cat has > had issues it doesn't make sense to take such a drastic measure as PU > surgery, which has its own very serious set of problems, when other less > invasive, and usually successful, protocols have not been tried. I can't think of a FLUTD case I've seen during my experience as a vet tech that would require PU surgery on the first instance of blockage (though I've seen many that I'd have like to have seen on canned food rather than dry Hill's Prescription) but this is a very ill cat that I'm not about to second-guess the treatment on. -Alison in OH Aliso wrote: > How is Rachael supposed to know that > except for a vaguely uncomfortable [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > that has led Rachael to pursue a second > opinion. Easy peasy. But nobody mentioned aftercare that could prevent the need for surgery except for me. That should have been mentioned but it was made to sound as though the surgery was the only option, which it is not. > However I think it is quite ill-advised > for you, an anonymous poster on a > newsgroup, to presume to promote a > specific treatment on a cat you've never > seen based on your experience with two > cats. No, it's not. The treatment I described is commonly used for cats with just such problems and most vets will advise the same. You can find a number of vet sources that will say canned food is the way to help stop recurrences, and that dry food can cause problems. Giving fluids to a cat with urinary problems to keep the flow going so to speak is also common practice. > This is a very ill cat, and while I too > cringe at the thought of subjecting a > cat to P/U surgery before other options > have > been explored, this might be Rachael's > cat's only hope. I hope you don't look at your own cats future conditions in such a negative light, especially so early in the game. There are other options than surgery which she hasn't even tried and hopefully will before resorting to something so drastic. >> I disagree. First, she should get the >> cat to a vet that wants to solve the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> to consider such a drastic measure as PU >> surgery. > YOU DON'T KNOW THAT. This *might* be > Rachael's cat's only hope. It will take > a PROFESSONAL VETERINARY opinion to > determine whether that's true or not. And *you* don't know if this might be the cat's "only hope." What I am saying is not to jump the gun, which you are seemingly prepared to do. Go back and look at how you sound in your post. The "only hope?" You don't know that either and are guilty of exactly what you claim I'm doing. In your post you were more than happy to skip over the other options without addressing them in any sort of detail and go straight to saying surgery may be the only hope. You should be applying your criticisms of me to yourself. >> I have dealt with this exact same >> situation twice in the last year, once >> with a foster cat I have in another >> home, and once with a cat I was >> petsitting. > [snip] > That's just super and I'm sure that's > something to be proud of. For what it's [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > is a COMPETENT HANDS-ON VETERINARY > opinion. First of all I never said to "take him home" from the vet, and I don't appreciate you twisting it to make it look as though I did. I specifically addressed what she could do once he was home to keep him hydrated and flushed in the best way while she switches to wet food. Second, you yourself have had success with treating your own cat yet, until you posted to criticize me, you have not offered one bit of information to Rachael regarding this in an effort to give her even a small amount of hope and only repeated that the surgery may be the "only" hope. Why you wouldn't share your own success story and other knowlege is a mystery. That is exactly why this newsgroup exists, you know. >> So what I am saying is this: since this >> is the first time this cat has had [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> usually successful, protocols have not >> been tried. > I can't think of a FLUTD case I've seen > during my experience as a vet tech that > would require PU surgery on the first > instance of blockage Yet you could not even share this bit of information except in a post criticizing me. You, again, focused on the surgery possibly being the "only hope" and did nothing to give Rachael hope otherwise based on actual experience you had as a vet tech. Why? Don't you think that would be comforting and give her some hope and motivation to look at other options? I don't know about you but I shared my experiences as an illustration that there is indeed hope and that less invasive options are worth a try before drastic measures are taken. I'm sorry that you feel that is wrong. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Why you wouldn't share your own success story and other knowlege is a > mystery. That is exactly why this newsgroup exists, you know. Megan, I suppose this is exactly what it boils down to. I followed Rachael's cat's progress avidly and wished her the best, but I simply didn't feel comfortable saying, "Taking my cat off of prescription food and putting him on canned food worked for him. You should do the same." I'm sorry for foisting my own morals off on you, since in a discussion group (as you point out) we can hope that the members will take all information with a grain of salt. However, I saw your pronouncement against the surgery to be a potentially deadly piece of advice--one that I wanted to give but held back from. :( I was a heartbeat away from sharing my experience with Otis when Rachael posted that her guy was having trouble peeing again and he ended up back at the vet. The fact that he re-blocked so quickly makes his case much more serious and more complicated than my cat's, and therefore makes my experience (with a single emergency blockage) and knowledge (copious research on *preventing* further problems) inapplicable. I hope she can find a vet that has some understanding of this disease rather than grasping at therapeutic diets like a drowning person with a life preserver, and that her cat continues to improve. I'm sorry I was cross and sharp with my earlier posts in this thread. Preserving the client-vet bond is one of my great passions, and I'd rather encourage Rachael to find a vet that she can work with than discourage her from exploring specific options. Regards, Alison in OH Alison wrote: > I suppose this is exactly what it boils > down to. I followed Rachael's cat's [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > deadly piece of advice--one that I > wanted to give but held back from. :( I am not dead set against the surgery if other options have failed. I just think that to look at that so soon is a mistake, and that's what I was trying to get across. Since I have an opportunity here to list the problems with such a surgery I think it's worthwhile to do so: A predisposition to bladder infections and infection related bladder stones occurs as a result of PU surgery. Cats with PU's will need to have their urine checked at least 4 times a year even if they have no symptoms of a problem. A very serious complication that can occur after the operation is the formation of scar tissue (also known as a stricture.) This will cause the urinary opening to become smaller and it can result in another surgery. There is the risk of nerve damage as a result of the surgery and a cat may become incontinent. This is a very frustrating and difficult problem to deal with and no fun for the cat or his guardian. :-( > I was a heartbeat away from sharing my > experience with Otis when Rachael posted [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > (copious research on *preventing* > further problems) inapplicable. I don't think so and think your experience is definitely worth sharing and would be helpful. Although some cats block a few times during an incident, I think it just lends to the fact that some cats are initially going to be more difficult to stabilize than others and that in no way should minimize the success you have had in treating you cat and its application. Your experience may also be useul to others reading who may find themselves in the same or similar predicament in the future. Any experience that has helped a cat to avoid a drastic treatment can be helpful to post (and its merits weighed within the context of what is happening) and in the future I hope you don't refrain from doing so. You never know who might benefit. > I hope she can find a vet that has some > understanding of this disease rather > than grasping at therapeutic diets like > a drowning person with a life preserver, > and that her cat continues to improve. I agree with you 100%. That has always been one of my pet peeves too, and I can say that for many years I have been able to treat cats without having to rely on prescription food and have always found other avenues that have been successful. I hope Rachael finds one, too, and her cat gets healthy with no more problems. :-) > I'm sorry I was cross and sharp with my > earlier posts in this thread. Preserving [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with than discourage her from exploring > specific options. Thank you and I understand where you're coming from. Hopefully Rachael can find a great vet that will work with her to find a successful way to treat her cat that won't rely on anything drastic. That's the best we can hope for. :-) Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray Alison wrote: > I suppose this is exactly what it boils > down to. I followed Rachael's cat's [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > deadly piece of advice--one that I > wanted to give but held back from. :( > I am not dead set against the surgery if other options have failed. Well now, that's what this was all about, now wasn't it? An alternative to euthanasia if normal urine flow could not be re-established... > the problems with such a surgery Every surgery carries potential risks and complications, some more serious than others. However, rational people base their discision on an assessment of the risk-to-benefit ratio. In this case, if normal urine flow can not be re-established, *death* would likely result from *actute renal failue*. .This makes the poyrntial risks and complications, however significant, *acceptable*. Aren't your legs getting tired from backpeddling? Take a rest... Phil wrote: <snip> Ya know, Phil, it's pretty sad that a single statement by me that said you were premature and irresponsible to offer PU surgery so soon as an option has to result in your going out of your way to post personal attacks, flaming, misrepresentations and lies. This is especially hypocritical on your part since you recently posted the following: From: "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.org> To: Feline_Health_and_Behavior@yahoogroups.com Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 >>My biggest question is WHERE IS THE >>MODERATOR? I thought one of the >>rules was no flaming... >You're right. That's why the "hey i >suggest your shove your opinion up your [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >flames. >Phil . Practice what you preach. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray >From: zuzu22@webtv.net >Phil wrote: ><snip> [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > >Megan lmao! the hypocrisy of Phil is right! ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >From: zuzu22@webtv.net > > >Phil wrote: > ><snip> > >Ya know, Phil, it's pretty sad that a single statement by me that said > >you were premature and irresponsible Yep, that did it! You make a derogatory remark then you whine about the flack! Not too self-righteous are you? LOL! Maybe if you simply said you disagreed with my suggestion, I wouldn't have given you any flack...But you couldn't resit the urge to get a dig in... So you got what you dererved. Keep that in mind the next time you get the urge.... > >From: "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.org> > >To: Feline_Health_and_Behavior@yahoogroups.com > > > >Date: Thu, 25 Sep 2003 Ahhh, so you or you had one of your minions sneak into my group to spy under an alias! That about sums up your character! Why am I not surprised? Oh that's right, you did it before! LOL! Phil wrote: >Ahhh, so you or you had one of your >minions sneak into my group to spy under >an alias! Nope. I didn't need to. Your fan club has dwindled to next to nothing and you have people that greatly dislike you and laugh at you and your blustering hypocrisy right under your nose, yet you are clueless. If you were as unconscious of your surroundings in Vietnam as you are now, you would have been brought back in a body bag. Now go project. It's what you're best at. Megan Signature"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." -Edmund Burke Learn The TRUTH About Declawing http://www.stopdeclaw.com Zuzu's Cats Photo Album: http://www.PictureTrail.com/zuzu22 "Concerning all acts of initiative (and creation), there is one elementary truth the ignorance of which kills countless ideas and splendid plans: that the moment one definitely commits oneself, then providence moves too. A whole stream of events issues from the decision, raising in one's favor all manner of unforeseen incidents, meetings and material assistance, which no man could have dreamt would have come his way." - W.H. Murray > Phil wrote: > >Ahhh, so you or you had one of your > >minions sneak into my group to spy under > >an alias! > > Nope. I didn't need to. Your fan club has dwindled to next to nothing "Fan club"! LOL! Its a good thing I own a few print shops, eh? I can print up my own buttons, posters, and bumper stickers at cost! ROTFL! Oh that's right, I forgot!!! You never got over my refusal to print your bumber stickers... I guess you took the rejection a lot harder than I thought! It looks like I certainly made the right call! LOL! Btw, at last count my group was 400 strong....and *growing*... > and you have people that greatly dislike you Yeah, I know... I grieve over them on long winter nights... LOL! And you haven't even met some of my business competitors! They really "love " me! LOL! I'm so flattered that you're so concerned about popularity! Too bad its not as important to me as it to you....LOL! Ya know Megan, you sound like a mud-slinging politician running for office... "Megan for President of RPCH+B" Just don't ask me to do your campaign printing! ROTFL!! I'm not running for office or trying to win a popularity contest --- but that seems to be awfully important to you... What can I say? I'm just not insecure nor do I feel inferior like you do - If you > were as unconscious of your surroundings in Vietnam |
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