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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / October 2003Cat food - dry/wet (this has probably been discussed a thousand times already)
Hey everyone, I've got two 2 y/o ragdoll kittens - Karma and Cocoa - who I've fed with dry food in the morning and throughout the day (Hills Science) and wet food for dinner (Whiska's canned or pouches).. When I took my babies to the vet recently to get their vaccinations updated, the vet advised that I take them off the wet food and give them just dry food. I always thought it was good to have variety because there are some things the cats get out of wet but not dry food, and vice versa.. But the vet said that the dry would be better for their teeth and would get them drinking more water (my cats are big fans of water, I'm not sure they need much more!). Cocoa has to go back and get his teeth cleaned, which he's being sedated for (which I'm also a bit concerned about).. but Karma's teeth are fine.. So what I'm wondering is, if I start giving the boys dry food constantly, is it going to upset their routine at all? Are they going to think I just haven't fed them at night and not eat because they're waiting for their wet food? Or is the vet just crazy and should I stick to the routine that has worked so far. We've also just moved house, which caused a bit of tension for all of us, but I'm pleased to say I think we (including the cats) all handled it well, and my kitties are loving the new house :) I know I should have asked the vet this, but even so, it's good to have some more opinions.. :) Thanks :) -- Shellie >^.,.^< Hi Shellie, If this were me I would carry on as before and ignore the vet. -- Alison Links to animal information websites http://mysite.freeserve.com/petinfolinks/ > Hey everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > -- > Shellie >^.,.^< >So what I'm wondering is, if I start giving the boys dry food constantly, is >it going to upset their routine at all? Are they going to think I just >haven't fed them at night and not eat because they're waiting for their wet >food? Or is the vet just crazy and should I stick to the routine that has >worked so far. Technically, the dry food is better for their teeth, but I also feed some wet food. I mostly started when I had an elderly cat who wasn't eating enough. I had to feed her canned food to get her to eat, and she would not eat chilled or heated wet food, so I was stuck opening multiple cans a day and having the other cats finish it off. After she died, I felt guilty stopping the wet food, so I give them one can a night, which is split between 3 cats and one dog (can't give a treat to one while another is watching). I use it more as a treat than a meal. They still eat kibble thorughout the day, and the one cat has a daily routine of going up to the bathroom with me when I get ready for bed. She eats kibble there even though she knows I am about to open the can. I'd be a little concerned since one already needs a teeth cleaning, so be aware of how much of each he is eating. You may want to reduce the amount of wet food. How much do they get? Perhaps a smaller serving would be better. Meghan & the Zoo Crew Equine and Pet Photography http://www.zoocrewphoto.com >From: "Shellie" shellie@iinet.net.au >I've got two 2 y/o ragdoll kittens - Karma and Cocoa - who I've fed with dry >food in the morning and throughout the day (Hills Science) and wet food for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >to have variety because there are some things the cats get out of wet but >not dry food, and vice versa.. You are correct. I highly recommend a new vet. Feeding an all dry food is not healthy for a carnivore, especially your boy who can become prone to urinary crystals. I would also recommend a higher quality canned food. > But the vet said that the dry would be better >for their teeth and would get them drinking more water There is much debate about the efficacy of dry food for cleaning teeth. In my experience, many cats just swallow kibble without chewing enough to get any benefit from the dry food. I give my cats chicken gizzards for their teeth. I feed them raw but if you don't want to, you can just braise them in some butter. As far as drinking more, again in my experience some cats will drink more when fed dry food, but many don't, and then they can get urinary tract problems. I'm sure you'll got lots of opinions here as food is a much debate topic :) Meanwhile, here is an excellent article on feline nutrition: http://www.homevet.com/petcare/feedingyourcat.html Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm In news:20030929071442.04811.00000003@mb-m17.aol.com, PawsForThought <darnit7@aol.comnolitter> being of bellicose mind posted: > There is much debate about the efficacy of dry food for cleaning > teeth. In my experience, many cats just swallow kibble without [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Lauren I take a proctologist's view. If whatever the cat eats produces a smooth turd in the litter box, that's the diet he/she gets. If the feces looks forced, hard, evidence of constipation, I experiment until the "evidence" looks normal. Pretty simple, eh? -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" > ________ > See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe > Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html > http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html > Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >From: "Philip ®" 1chip-state1@earthlink.net.invalid >PawsForThought <darnit7@aol.comnolitter> being of bellicose mind >posted: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >feces looks forced, hard, evidence of constipation, I experiment >until the "evidence" looks normal. Pretty simple, eh? LOL! Yes, let's hear it for smooth turds :) Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > Hey everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > -- > Shellie >^.,.^< That is just plain *silly* advice. They HAVE to drink more to stay healthy, but it certainly won't guarantee it and boys have a terrible time with urinary problems if they don't get enough water. I think that is terrible advice, and it sounds to me as though the doctor is not up on the most recent cat veterinary research. More and more do NOT recommend dry only diets. It is merely a convenience for the owner and not of benefit to the cat. Karen > That is just plain *silly* advice. They HAVE to drink more to stay healthy, > but it certainly won't guarantee it and boys have a terrible time with [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cat. > Karen Or perhaps the vet is indeed up on the most current issues and is concerned about the recent epidemiological study that showed cats on canned food were four times more likely to succumb to hyperthyroidism. Nothing in life is completely black and white, despite how much we wish it was. I am still a canned food proponent, but the recent evidence indicating increased risks of hyperthyroidism is certainly worthy of consideration and demands we spend a little time thinking about all the consequences. It requires we weigh the risks. >From: rosebrook@sbcglobal.net (Steve Crane) >Or perhaps the vet is indeed up on the most current issues and is >concerned about the recent epidemiological study that showed cats on [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >worthy of consideration and demands we spend a little time thinking >about all the consequences. It requires we weigh the risks. I don't see how eating a moist food diet would cause hyperthyroidism. Perhaps it's the ingredients in that canned food. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > > That is just plain *silly* advice. They HAVE to drink more to stay healthy, > > but it certainly won't guarantee it and boys have a terrible time with [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > worthy of consideration and demands we spend a little time thinking > about all the consequences. It requires we weigh the risks. There are two such studies - both have too many variables to draw any conclusions. Remember the old "FUS" epidemiological studies? "FUS-prone cats are 2 to 6 years old, neutered, sedentary, and overweight. They eat dry food, live indoors, and use a litter pan exclusively." Gee, that sure narrows down the risk factors, doesn't it?? LOL! > There are two such studies - both have too many variables to draw any > conclusions. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Gee, that sure narrows down the risk factors, doesn't it?? LOL! Agreed ! But still something to keep in the back of one's mind. > Hey everyone, > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > -- > Shellie >^.,.^< Hi Shellie, I have Ragdolls too :-) their teeth should be clean at that age! could you take them off whiskers and try introducing some raw instead, gradually introduce it... or find a better wet food than whiskers! it isn't very good food! are you in the UK? if so try from waitrose, Yarrah Organic Cat. I think tesco's or sainsbury's do it too. Denes is another good one too. good luck > Hi Shellie, I have Ragdolls too :-) their teeth should be clean at that > age! could you take them off whiskers and try introducing some raw instead, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > too. > good luck I know, I feel like a bad mummy for letting Cocoa's teeth get dirty, the poor thing :( He was a stray - so I'm not 100% positive on the Ragdoll I.D., but he's certainly got a good deal of their traits :) - but he seems to eat the same amount as Karma, so I'm going to go with Yngver and suspect a genetic tendancy.. But in any case, I'm going to keep a good eye (and brush?) on his teeth from now on.. I know Whiska's isn't the best brand.. In comparison to a lot of the others, they seem like the better one though. I live in Australia, and I'd be happy to get some opinions on what I can buy around here that is good for my kitties. Thanks for your reply! :) -- Shellie >^.,.^< >I've got two 2 y/o ragdoll kittens - Karma and Cocoa - who I've fed with dry >food in the morning and throughout the day (Hills Science) and wet food for [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >food? Or is the vet just crazy and should I stick to the routine that has >worked so far. Well, I hesitate to say your vet is crazy, but there are plenty of vets who recommend canned food over dry. My vet's opinion is the opposite of yours. He says that although some think that dry food helps clean the teeth, there is no evidence of that other than with some of the special dental diets. And in fact, cats that consume only dry food are less likely to get sufficient water than cats that eat canned food. If it were me, yes, I'd ignore the vet and keep feeding canned food. You may want to feed a little dental diet dry food or treats, or try to start brushing their teeth, to improve dental health. Since one of your cats needs a cleaning at only two years of age, I'd suspect a genetic tendency toward dental problems. If you can manage it, regular brushing might help considerably. Dry food is strictly for OUR convenience, I don't think it can possibly be better that wet, which is closer to what a cat would get in nature. As for drinking more water, well, yeah, you HAVE to drink more water when you're only getting dry food, if you have wet food you're getting water in the food and I've been told some necessary oils as well. Kirsten > >I've got two 2 y/o ragdoll kittens - Karma and Cocoa - who I've fed with dry > >food in the morning and throughout the day (Hills Science) and wet food for [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > at only two years of age, I'd suspect a genetic tendency toward dental > problems. If you can manage it, regular brushing might help considerably. > Dry food is strictly for OUR convenience, I don't think it can > possibly be better that wet, which is closer to what a cat would [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > necessary oils as well. > Kirsten Oh nonsense, Kristen. Dry food is only for "OUR" convenience if you are trying to get your adult children to leave home ... because you won't cook for them anymore. ;-) Over the years, my cats have had more dietary grief from prepared canned pet foods than Purina cat chow. One other thing Kirsten, just like dogs, indoor cats will find the toilet bowl or a dripping sink faucet when there is not a reliable source of water elsewhere in the house. So please... until you are sure your animals are not sipping from the toilet bowl, do not use those self administering bowl cleaning products that turn the water blue. The next thing your pet licks may be your face! -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" ??? > > Dry food is strictly for OUR convenience, I don't think it can > > possibly be better that wet, which is closer to what a cat would [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > "Never let school interfere > with your education - Mark Twain" > Hey everyone, > > I've got two 2 y/o ragdoll kittens - Karma and Cocoa - who I've fed with dry I've got 1 3 year old seal-point mitted female... just a wonderful pet in every respect. > food in the morning and throughout the day (Hills Science) and wet food for > dinner (Whiska's canned or pouches).. When I took my babies to the vet > recently to get their vaccinations updated, the vet advised that I take them > off the wet food and give them just dry food. I always thought it was good If they are doing well on the wet leave them on it. You might want to get something of a higher quality wet. > to have variety because there are some things the cats get out of wet but > not dry food, and vice versa.. But the vet said that the dry would be better > for their teeth and would get them drinking more water (my cats are big fans When they eat dry they will naturally drink more water. My Ragdoll also loves the water. She will do this little dance before the slurping starts. ;-) > of water, I'm not sure they need much more!). > Cocoa has to go back and get his teeth cleaned, which he's being sedated for [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > -- > Shellie >^.,.^< Any change of food will cause them some upset, which is why it needs to be done very gradually. Start with a 25% new and 75% old mixture and feed for a few days. Change the percentages in 25% increments until they are 100% on the new food. This gives their systems a chance to adjust. You are lucky that you have yours at least eating the wet with I assume no nasty side effects. You see, mine has been on dry all her life... when I tried to switch her over to wet the runny stools just would not stop. I'll be making another attempt at it in a little while when my current food supply gets low but I'm not holding my breathe.  Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck > > Hey everyone, > > > > I've got two 2 y/o ragdoll kittens - Karma and Cocoa - who I've fed with dry > > I've got 1 3 year old seal-point mitted female... just a wonderful pet > in every respect. Gorgeous! :) How much does she weigh, out of curiousity - if she doesn't mind my asking of course? :) > > food in the morning and throughout the day (Hills Science) and wet food for > > dinner (Whiska's canned or pouches).. When I took my babies to the vet [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > If they are doing well on the wet leave them on it. You might want to > get something of a higher quality wet. I'd love to give them something that was better for them.. Any ideas? :) > > to have variety because there are some things the cats get out of wet but > > not dry food, and vice versa.. But the vet said that the dry would be better [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > loves the water. She will do this little dance before the slurping > starts. ;-) lol, my Karma sits right over the bowl and slurps on the side furtherest from where he's sitting, so all his chest fur gets in the water.. Maybe he's saving some for later when he's cleaning himself? hehe > > of water, I'm not sure they need much more!). > > Cocoa has to go back and get his teeth cleaned, which he's being sedated for [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > stop. I'll be making another attempt at it in a little while when my > current food supply gets low but I'm not holding my breathe. Nope, no side effects.. They've always been in good health (with good stools - I try and keep an eye on them :).. From time to time they go off the wet stuff, but I imagine that when I start giving them better quality food, they'll lap it up :) Thanks for your advice! :) -- Shellie >^.,.^< >>>Hey everyone, >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Gorgeous! :) How much does she weigh, out of curiousity - if she doesn't > mind my asking of course? :) She hovers between 16 - 17 pounds. :-) >>>food in the morning and throughout the day (Hills Science) and wet food > [quoted text clipped - 33 lines] > from where he's sitting, so all his chest fur gets in the water.. Maybe > he's saving some for later when he's cleaning himself? hehe Mine gets water droplets all over her face... then shakes herself furiously after drinking. It is almost like a wet dog shaking... water droplets all over the place. :-) >>>of water, I'm not sure they need much more!). >>>Cocoa has to go back and get his teeth cleaned, which he's being sedated [quoted text clipped - 59 lines] > -- > Shellie >^.,.^< Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck the vet advised that I take them > off the wet food and give them just dry food. Poor advice. > But the vet said that the dry would be better > for their teeth Regular dry food does very little, if anything, to keep teeth clean. For a dry food to have any appreciable effect on the teeth the nuggets must be big enough for the cat's teeth to sink into -and hard but not brittle so the nuggests don't shatter when the cat sinks her teeth into them. Cats don't chew, in sense of mastication, as the dog, so even the best dry food doesn't produce the same results in cats as it does in the dog. So the "cleaning" effect on the cat's teeth isn't worth the trade-off for the rest of the cat's system. > and would get them drinking more water I suggest you find a new vet - Yours is still in the dark ages! Sure - cats fed dry food drink about 6x more water than cats fed canned food - but most of that water is lost to fecal moisture so their urine volume is lower. The concentration of substances in the urine that can develop into crystals depends on urine volume - the higher the urine volume the less the chances of developing crystals. Also, even though cats fed dry food drink more water, the water turnover in cats fed canned food is 150% -200% *higher* than cats fed dry food. Stick with canned food and give your cats a few "dental" treats a day. http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm#Dry Food vs Canned Food. Which is really better? Good luck. Phil > the vet advised that I take them > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > nuggests don't shatter when the cat sinks her teeth into them. Cats don't > chew, in sense of mastication, as the dog, so even the best dry food doesn't Now that is interesting Phil... I've suspected that for a while now considering a vomit shortly after eating reveals large chunks of food. Not that this happens regularly in my case... er my cats case. So they chomp once or twice on it then swallow... is that the deal? > produce the same results in cats as it does in the dog. So the "cleaning" > effect on the cat's teeth isn't worth the trade-off for the rest of the [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Phil Signature"Its the bugs that keep it running." -Joe Canuck > Now that is interesting Phil... I've suspected that for a while now > considering a vomit shortly after eating reveals large chunks of > food. Not that this happens regularly in my case... er my cats > case. > > So they chomp once or twice on it then swallow... is that the deal? The jaw of a carnivore does not move from side to side as does the jaw of an omivore. Chopping only, no grinding. Chop Chop! -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" >For a >> dry food to have any appreciable effect on the teeth the nuggets must be [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >So they chomp once or twice on it then swallow... is that the deal? Ours do. I've observed the same thing--when I tried a certain "dental diet" dry food, when the kibble was regurgitated--something one of our cats does now and then--the pieces were still whole. So logic tells you the kibble is certainly not cleaning teeth by mechanical means. There is one dental diet--I think it's Iams--that has pretty huge kibble, with the idea that if it's that big, the cat has to chomp on it a few times to get to a manageable size. But I've heard of some cats still trying to swallow large kibble whole, and choking on it. Our cats just refuse to eat the Iams because the kibble is too big. I have noticed with one of our cats, when eating something a little larger and irregularly shaped, like Wysong, that she tends to roll it around in her mouth until saliva softens it enough to swallow. So if that's what a cat is doing to manage a larger kibble, it still wouldn't have any cleaning effect. >From: yngver@aol.comnospam (Yngver) >>For a >>> dry food to have any appreciable effect on the teeth the nuggets must be [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] >to >manage a larger kibble, it still wouldn't have any cleaning effect. I feed my cats a homemade diet and they look different when they chew than my previous cats who were fed kibble. When I give them chunked meat for instance, they will turn their head to the side and it looks like they are doing a scissors motion to shred the meat. I know I'm probably not explaining this too well. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >I feed my cats a homemade diet and they look different when they chew than my >previous cats who were fed kibble. When I give them chunked meat for [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >too >well. I think I know what you mean, however. Their teeth are designed more for shredding and slicing than for grinding. When I get one of our cats to eat one of those CET dental chews, which come in a tough wrapping that they pretty much have to chew, that's sort of what she does. She shifts it back and forth to each side of her mouth, using a scissoring bite. But one dental chew (or half a one) is all she's ever willing to try to eat, I suppose because it's too much work. The other cats won't eat them at all unless I take them out of the hard casing, which greatly reduces the purpose. >From: yngver@aol.comnospam (Yngver) >I think I know what you mean, however. Their teeth are designed more for >shredding and slicing than for grinding. When I get one of our cats to eat [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >unless >I take them out of the hard casing, which greatly reduces the purpose. I've never heard of these chews. I have the CET cat tooth brush. Do you find the chews help their teeth? ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >I've never heard of these chews. I have the CET cat tooth brush. Do you >find >the chews help their teeth? One of our cats needs dental cleanings about every other year, so we have been trying to figure out ways to keep her teeth cleaner. Brushing has not proven to very doable so far. We had been trying with CET toothpaste, but although she likes to eat the stuff, she won't let us actually brush her teeth with it. I asked our vet about the CET dental chews, and in his opinion they fall in the category of most of these dental treats--can't hurt, might evn help. I think they might help if you can actually get the cat to gnaw on them, but we haven't had much success with that either, or not on a regular basis anyway. I think she'd have to chew on one every day for it to really have much effect, and she doesn't like them enough to tackle one ever day. >From: yngver@aol.comnospam (Yngver) >>I've never heard of these chews. I have the CET cat tooth brush. Do you >>find [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] >think she'd have to chew on one every day for it to really have much effect, >and she doesn't like them enough to tackle one ever day. I got some toothpaste from Veterianarian's Best. Although my cats aren't wild about it, they will tolerate it. But what I've been doing for their teeth is feeding chicken gizzards. That and their raw diet has really helped and the vet remarked how great my cats' teeth look. But I know some cats are just genetically predisposed to dental problems. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > I got some toothpaste from Veterianarian's Best. Although my cats aren't wild > about it, they will tolerate it. But what I've been doing for their teeth is > feeding chicken gizzards. That and their raw diet has really helped and the > vet remarked how great my cats' teeth look. But I know some cats are just > genetically predisposed to dental problems. Lauren, this comment has made me curious. What do you feed your cats? When I can feed my guy raw he gets chicken necks, preferably attached to the back; chicken legs; turkey necks; scraps of other meats. Periodontal health is one of my prime reasons for wanting to feed a more natural diet, so I'm big into giving Hektor food he can really CHEW! -Alison in OH >From: Alison Perera ask.me@cwru.edu.invalid >> I got some toothpaste from Veterianarian's Best. Although my cats aren't >wild [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >-Alison in OH Hi Alison, I think you're absolutely doing the right thing for Hektor. I can't imagine how a cat's jaw, teeth and gums get any exercise from eating canned cat food. From what I understand, the necks are excellent for dental health. I would feed them more, but I have a hard time sourcing them. I feed a variety of foods, but basically they get a different meat every few days, with the essential things the same, such as supplements, minced veggies, squash, fish oil, etc. They also get quail or cornish game hens fed with bone intact. But for their teeth, I try to give them raw gizzards. Those things are really tough and I'm always amazed at how easy my cats make it look eating them. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > Hi Alison, > I think you're absolutely doing the right thing for Hektor. I can't imagine [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > really tough and I'm always amazed at how easy my cats make it look eating > them. Actually necks are really too small for my big guy. And don't have nearly enough meat on them. (My guys get them when I cut up a roaster or fryer for human use.) If/when I get the fellas switched their staples will include pieces of chicken, quail and cornish game hen, rabbit, and other appropriately-sized critters. If you're impressed by a cat's ability to chew through a gizzard you'll be wowed the first time you see them go through a chicken leg like buttah. :) A different meat every few days...do you grind, or do you supplement calcium separately? Why are supplements, minced veggies, squash, and fish oil "essential things"? What meats do you include in that rotation? I understand if you don't want to discuss diet here--I've never seen such an anti-raw group--but I'm really curious to know what kinds of diet plans people follow. -Alison in OH >From: Alison Perera ask.me@cwru.edu.invalid >Actually necks are really too small for my big guy. And don't have >nearly enough meat on them I only use necks and gizzards for their teeth, not as a staple to the diet. >If/when I get the fellas switched their staples >will include pieces of chicken, quail and cornish game hen, rabbit, and >other appropriately-sized critters. If you're impressed by a cat's >ability to chew through a gizzard you'll be wowed the first time you see >them go through a chicken leg like buttah. :) My cats do get quail and rock cornish game hens. For some odd reason they aren't crazy about chicken. But I do feed them the whole bird so they eat the bones too. It's amazing, isn't it, how easily they can chew through those things? >A different meat every few days...do you grind, or do you supplement >calcium separately? Why are supplements, minced veggies, squash, and >fish oil "essential things"? What meats do you include in that rotation? No, I don't have a grinder yet, although I'd like to get one. I use things like quail, cornish hens, ostrich, buffalo, turkey. I find that by rotating the meats, they don't get finicky. Everything in the diet is for balance, although with fresh foods you don't have to supplement to the extent that is done in commercial cooked food. >I understand if you don't want to discuss diet here--I've never seen >such an anti-raw group--but I'm really curious to know what kinds of >diet plans people follow. LOL, you are right. But I believe what I feed my cats is the best diet for them, so I don't let the naysayers bother me. My vet has been feeding raw for 30 years with excellent results so I listen to him instead of a Hill's rep, for instance ;) If and when you're interested, you can email me and I can send you a link to a great group for the raw diet. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >If/when I get the fellas switched their staples > >will include pieces of chicken, quail and cornish game hen, rabbit, and [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > bones too. It's amazing, isn't it, how easily they can chew through those > things? So you find that gizzards provide more chewing exercise and teeth cleaning than whole birds? That's interesting. > >A different meat every few days...do you grind, or do you supplement > >calcium separately? Why are supplements, minced veggies, squash, and [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > although with fresh foods you don't have to supplement to the extent that is > done in commercial cooked food. You have trouble sourcing chicken necks but you can find meaty ostrich bones? :) I'm jealous. Why, though, do you find it necessary to "balance" and "supplement" a diet of meaty bones and organs? If cats weren't meant to thrive on the carcasses of their prey, and if they needed people to puree their carrots and kale tens of thousands of years ago, they wouldn't be here purring on our laps. ;) If your guys are doing well on large meaty bones and whole carcasses, why "backtrack" to grinding? > >I understand if you don't want to discuss diet here--I've never seen > >such an anti-raw group--but I'm really curious to know what kinds of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > a > great group for the raw diet. Thanks, but I suspect I know the group you belong to due to your singling out squash separately from other veggies. Check out the Yahoo! group rawfeeding, they have a guest member right now, a Dr. Johan Joubert who is a South African veterinary periodontist practicing in the UK. He has an awesome amount of knowledge, and he's doing an amazing job of answering questions from all comers. A lot of cat questions have been asked and answered in the last day or so. Regards, Alison >From: Alison Perera ask.me@cwru.edu.invalid >So you find that gizzards provide more chewing exercise and teeth >cleaning than whole birds? That's interesting. I don't know if they provide more exercise than bones per se, but it seems because of the tough membrane that gizzards have, it's harder for them to chew. >You have trouble sourcing chicken necks but you can find meaty ostrich >bones? :) I'm jealous. No, no I feed ostrich chunked or ground. It's only quail and cornish hens that I feed them whole. >Why, though, do you find it necessary to >"balance" and "supplement" a diet of meaty bones and organs? If cats >weren't meant to thrive on the carcasses of their prey, and if they >needed people to puree their carrots and kale tens of thousands of years >ago, they wouldn't be here purring on our laps. ;) I only supplement when I feed ground meat, not when they get whole food. I think this article explains it probably much better than I'm doing, LOL: http://www.holisticat.com/rawdiet.html >If your guys are doing well on large meaty bones and whole carcasses, >why "backtrack" to grinding? Good point. But I wanted one mostly to try chicken and turkey. My boy will eat chicken bones, but not my girl. But if you put a quail in front of her, she goes crazy for it. >Check out the Yahoo! >group rawfeeding, they have a guest member right now, a Dr. Johan >Joubert who is a South African veterinary periodontist practicing in the >UK. He has an awesome amount of knowledge, and he's doing an amazing job >of answering questions from all comers. A lot of cat questions have been >asked and answered in the last day or so. Thanks, Alison. I'll definitely check it out for sure. I think I joined that group last week because the news about the doctor was cross-posted. I'm glad to hear they're talking about cats too. Some of the raw feeding groups tend to be mostly about feeding dogs. Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm > >Why, though, do you find it necessary to > >"balance" and "supplement" a diet of meaty bones and organs? If cats [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://www.holisticat.com/rawdiet.html "Some people prefer to let nature's balance take care of itself by simply grinding whole chickens and such, bones and all. If you have a manual or electric grinder equipped to handle bones, this is ideal. You should still consider your cat's requirements for organ meats such as liver, kidneys, hearts and gizzards. Include veggies, some cooked grains if you choose to feed them, eggs, and oil if you feed lean meats. " If you feed to replicate whole prey, giving large pieces of meat on the bone, you'll get balance--no need to grind. Veggies? "Veggies should be quite finely pulped or grated to help your cat digest them better." Who's pulping the feral cat's veggies? Why include eggs? A fine foodstuff, but not necessary. Oil if you feed lean meats? Cats don't process vegetable oils well, why not feed fattier meats some days to even it out? Did you read the study where they fed ground whole rabbits to cats, who developed taurine deficiency and other nutritional disorders? Two possible reasons that have been suggested are: without the ripping and gnawing action to "wake up" the digestive system, the food was not assimilated well. Or, by not allowing the cats to pick and choose as their cravings dictated, they eliminated a natural method that the animals might have to select the parts that met their needs. > >If your guys are doing well on large meaty bones and whole carcasses, > >why "backtrack" to grinding? > > Good point. But I wanted one mostly to try chicken and turkey. My boy will > eat chicken bones, but not my girl. But if you put a quail in front of her, > she goes crazy for it. Awesome. :) If she's getting...I forget...quail, game hen, buffalo, ostrich, venison...why bother with chicken? Let your boy have it. ;) Check out hare-today.com for rabbit, including ground mixes. > >Check out the Yahoo! > >group rawfeeding, they have a guest member right now, a Dr. Johan [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > to > be mostly about feeding dogs. The rawfeeding group discussions often center on dogs, but since they consider the dog and cat both to be carnivores that thrive on the nearest replica of whole carcasses we can manage, the dog-feeding advice applies to cats too--just feed appropriately sized pieces. -Alison in OH >From: Alison Perera ask.me@cwru.edu.invalid >If you feed to replicate whole prey, giving large pieces of meat on the >bone, you'll get balance--no need to grind. Veggies? "Veggies should be [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >process vegetable oils well, why not feed fattier meats some days to >even it out? Typically, if a cat consumes the stomach contents, it would be the plant material consumed by the prey, and can be about 5 to 10% of the diet. I don't use vegetable oils, but rather whole body fish oils, on the recommendation of my veterinarian. I find my cats do better when they have this supplement. Eggs is a very nutritious food and contains lots of important vitamins. They don't get eggs every day. >Did you read the study where they fed ground whole rabbits to cats, who >developed taurine deficiency and other nutritional disorders? Two [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >their cravings dictated, they eliminated a natural method that the >animals might have to select the parts that met their needs. Yep, that study has been hashed about a bit by raw feeders on some of the lists, and the conclusion reached if I recall correctly was that rabbit is a low taurine meat. Personally, I tried rabbit once with my cats and they didn't like it. >Awesome. :) If she's getting...I forget...quail, game hen, buffalo, >ostrich, venison...why bother with chicken? Price, LOL. Chicken is a lot cheaper than the cornish hens I've found. They both do like chicken hearts though. >> >Check out the Yahoo! >> >group rawfeeding, they have a guest member right now, a Dr. Johan >> >Joubert who is a South African veterinary periodontist practicing in the >> >UK. He has an awesome amount of knowledge, and he's doing an amazing job >> >of answering questions from all comers. A lot of cat questions have been >> >asked and answered in the last day or so. Thanks again. I was reading some of the posts last night. You're right, he is really awesome! Lauren ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >The rawfeeding group discussions often center on dogs, but since they >consider the dog and cat both to be carnivores that thrive on the >nearest replica of whole carcasses we can manage, the dog-feeding advice >applies to cats too--just feed appropriately sized pieces. > >-Alison in OH Is that the kind of advice being dished out over there? Dogs aren't carnivores, they are omnivores. What else are they getting wrong? > >The rawfeeding group discussions often center on dogs, but since they > >consider the dog and cat both to be carnivores that thrive on the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Is that the kind of advice being dished out over there? Dogs aren't > carnivores, they are omnivores. What else are they getting wrong? If you prefer the term "predators" I won't hold it against you. HTH! -Alison in OH >I got some toothpaste from Veterianarian's Best. Although my cats aren't >wild >about it, they will tolerate it. If you've never tried the CET toothpaste, you might want to try it when you run out of the VB. Our cats like the CET so much we use it to hide pills in if they need medication (vet said that is okay). But as I said, they like to eat it, not let us brush their teeth with it. But what I've been doing for their teeth is >feeding chicken gizzards. That and their raw diet has really helped and the >vet remarked how great my cats' teeth look. I know. After reading Anitra Frazier's book, I tried the chicken necks as she recommends (I think it was necks rather than gizzards, but I'm not sure). This was when our cats were about a year old, too, so they were not set in their ways yet. But they wouldn't eat them. They'd lick them a little, but that was about it. But I know some cats are just >genetically predisposed to dental problems. One of our cats seems to be. I mean, they all eat basically the same diet, but the other cat didn't need a cleaning until recently, at age 6. The first one is actually six months younger than her and has had a couple of cleanings already. Our third cat is only two or so (stray, age just an estimate) so no dental problems yet. >From: yngver@aol.comnospam (Yngver) >If you've never tried the CET toothpaste, you might want to try it when you >run >out of the VB. Our cats like the CET so much we use it to hide pills in if >they >need medication (vet said that is okay). But as I said, they like to eat it, >not let us brush their teeth with it. LOL, I had a cat once that if I didn't put my toothpaste cap on right away, she would try to eat the toothpaste. I did get a tube of the CET toothpaste when I bought the cat toothbrush. But unfortunately it was seafood flavor and I'm allergic to fish. So I didn't want to take a chance of the cats licking me or something after I'd brushed their teeth, and then having an allergic reaction. Do they make other flavors? > But what I've been doing for their teeth is >>feeding chicken gizzards. That and their raw diet has really helped and the >>vet remarked how great my cats' teeth look. >I know. After reading Anitra Frazier's book, I tried the chicken necks as she >recommends (I think it was necks rather than gizzards, but I'm not sure). >This >was when our cats were about a year old, too, so they were not set in their >ways yet. But they wouldn't eat them. They'd lick them a little, but that was >about it. Yeah, unfortunately some cats just won't eat them. Sometimes they will if you use a food enhancer, like sprinkling a little parmesan cheese on them. ________ See my cats: http://community.webshots.com/album/56955940rWhxAe Raw Diet Info: http://www.holisticat.com/drjletter.html http://www.geocities.com/rawfeeders/ForCatsOnly.html Declawing Info: http://www.wholecat.com/articles/claws.htm >LOL, I had a cat once that if I didn't put my toothpaste cap on right away, >she [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >reaction. >Do they make other flavors? Yes, we get the poultry flavor. But I'd also guess that the seafood flavor probably doesn't actually have any real seafood in it. >> But what I've been doing for their teeth is >>>feeding chicken gizzards. That and their raw diet has really helped and [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >you >use a food enhancer, like sprinkling a little parmesan cheese on them. I didn't think of that. But knowing our cats' tastes, parmesan cheese wouldn't particularly appeal to them. I'm trying to think what would--maybe tuna. > > I feed my cats a homemade diet and they look different when they > > chew than my previous cats who were fed kibble. When I give [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > won't eat them at all unless I take them out of the hard casing, > which greatly reduces the purpose. Maybe if you unwrapped and ate one of them in front of the cat? -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" >snip< > I suggest you find a new vet - Yours is still in the dark ages! [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > turnover in cats fed canned food is 150% -200% *higher* than cats > fed dry food. Where did you get these "figures" from? HOW do you get any animal to drink more water than their thirst dictates? > Stick with canned food and give your cats a few "dental" treats a > day. I've found that different cats process wet food with varying degrees of efficiency. When my Siamese'z had canned/wet foods, there was recurring diarrhea, vomiting, yakking up furballs, and finickiness. Also, after a trip to the litter box for a bowel movement, the stink was horrendous. Limiting the wet food to about 10-20% of their diet (the rest dry food) took care of everything. > Phil -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" Philip ®" 1chip-state1@earthlink.net.invalid wrote: >>snip< >> I suggest you find a new vet - Yours is still in the dark ages! [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >Where did you get these "figures" from? HOW do you get any animal >to drink more water than their thirst dictates? The ancestor of the domestic cat was a desert dweller, and so cats are designed to get a great deal of their fluid intake from the prey they eat. They are inefficient drinkers. A good quality canned food provides about the same amount of water that the cat would get from eating live prey. That's why even though a cat eating dry food may drink more water, a cat eating primarily canned food may still be consuming a lot more water than a cat eating dry food. >> Stick with canned food and give your cats a few "dental" treats a >> day. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >"Never let school interfere > with your education - Mark Twain" >>>snip< > > > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > canned food may still be consuming a lot more water than a cat > eating dry food. Ok fine, whatever. But speaking to the "inefficient drinkers".... may I say that Rusty puts away about a quart every three days. This is a 12 pound generic tabby male, indoors only, 13 1/2 yrs old. There isn't that much water in 3 small cans (5.5 oz) of Friskies wet food, which is about what he would consume if canned were his total diet. -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" > >>>snip< > > > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Ok fine, whatever. But speaking to the "inefficient drinkers".... > may I say that Rusty puts away about a quart every three days. This > is a 12 pound generic tabby male, indoors only, 13 1/2 yrs old. > There isn't that much water in 3 small cans (5.5 oz) of Friskies wet > food, which is about what he would consume if canned were his total > diet. You're sure about that, huh? 3, 5.5 oz cans of Friskies contain about 11 oz of water (1, 5.5 oz can = ~151 ml x 78% moisture = 113 ml x 3 = 339 ml or about 11.3 oz water.). A 12 lb (5.45 kg) cat has a DER of 245 - 327.kcals. Thus the cat's daily water requirement is about 245 - 327 ml or 8 -11oz. IOW, your cat's daily water requirement would be met *entirely* from his food! Btw, your cat would consume *more* water in 3 days (33 oz) from eating the canned food *without drinking* than he is by "putting away about a quart (32 oz) every three days". Gee, how about that! http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm#Water Requirements > > > Philip ®" 1chip-state1@earthlink.net.invalid wrote: > > > [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > > http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm#Water Requirements Who's woodwork did these bozos creep out of, Phil? Geez - it seems we have a myriad of them lately...either that or they are all the same guy... -L. > > > >>>snip< > > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > > -L. At least he isn't as bad as the au naturel cult fanatics! He's just a little honestly ignorant -- which can be cured with a little education. I just wish he had a different name! LOL! <snip> > > > Btw, your cat would consume *more* water in 3 days (33 oz) from eating > the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > At least he isn't as bad as the au naturel cult fanatics! I haven't been reading those threads. But I will say this - I worked on "natural" products - agrichemicals and insecticides - and some of the stuff we worked on was the NASTIEST stuff, in terms of tox, that I have ever encountered. That being said, I'm not against alternative treatments as long as one understands it's an experiment. >He's just a > little honestly ignorant -- which can be cured with a little education. > > I just wish he had a different name! LOL! Yeah, well, dems da breaks! -L. > > > >>>snip< > > > > > > [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Who's woodwork did these bozos creep out of, Phil? Geez - it seems we > have a myriad of them lately... I gave him the benefit of the doubt, but after reading a few of his posts, I think you're right! LOL! Phil > > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message > news:<Pr6dnUwrUZ3eFeeiRVn-tQ@giganews.com>... [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > > IOW, your cat's daily water requirement would be met > > > *entirely* from his food! Handy formulae you have. I did say Rusty goes thru a quart of water every three days. That would be a couple ounces short of your calculations. This mostly dry food (he gets one 5.5 ounce can of tuna per week). So ... are we disagreeing over a couple of ounces of water? Tell you what happens where the rubber meets the road. When I have supplied an entirely canned food diet, the cat bolts his food down and then ... regurgitates about one meal out of five. So that is water he did NOT get. Right? Thank you. In spite of an experiment with all canned food, he still drank quite a bit of water. So you formula under the best of conditions (no regurgitation) falls short. Is there room for individual variance? > > > Btw, your cat would consume *more* water in 3 days (33 oz) > > > from eating the canned food *without drinking* than he is by > > > "putting away about a quart (32 oz) every three days". Gee, > > > how about that! > > > > > > http://maxshouse.com/feline_nutrition.htm#Water Requirements -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" > > > "Phil P." <phil@maxshouse.com> wrote in message > > news:<Pr6dnUwrUZ3eFeeiRVn-tQ@giganews.com>... [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > every three days. That would be a couple ounces short of your > calculations. Did you forget you also said: "There isn't that much water in 3 small cans (5.5 oz) of Friskies wet food, which is about what he would consume if canned were his total diet" Did you forget that part? I simply corrected your erroneous conclusion. > > > > Btw, your cat would consume *more* water in 3 days (33 oz) > > > > from eating the canned food *without drinking* than he is by [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > "Never let school interfere > with your education - Mark Twain" > "Philip ?" <1chip-state1@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote in message > > Handy formulae you have. I did say Rusty goes thru a quart of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > wet food, which is about what he would consume if canned were his > total diet" But for the problem that when I tried him on a straight canned food diet, substantial regurgitation resulted every few days, irrespective of food brand. Regurgitation = lost water. Or were you taught differently in school? -- ~~Philip "Never let school interfere with your education - Mark Twain" > > "Philip ?" <1chip-state1@earthlink.net.invalid> wrote in message > > > Handy formulae you have. I did say Rusty goes thru a quart of [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > diet, substantial regurgitation resulted every few days, irrespective > of food brand. How did you introduce the diet... Einstein? > >snip< > > I suggest you find a new vet - Yours is still in the dark ages! [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Where did you get these "figures" from? From about 50 years of studies... HOW do you get any animal > to drink more water than their thirst dictates? That's precisely the problem with cats... Cats have a somewhat weak thirst drive because they're adapted to obtain most (>90%) of their total water intake from their food - a gift they inherited from their desert-dwelling ancestors. Cats can live for long periods without drinking water as long as their food containing 67-73% water Cats also cannot make precise and rapid compensatory changes in voluntary water intake in response to changes in their hydration status - that's why cats can become dehydrated so quickly. > > Stick with canned food and give your cats a few "dental" treats a > > day. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > "Never let school interfere > with your education - Mark Twain" |
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