Yeah.  Throw yourself on Megan's mercy.  You're the problem.

Bobbi

Shouting and getting riled up is a mistake.  They undoubtedly fed on
your fears.

I would let them smell and see each other (parts) through the door,
without being able to have a full face-to-face encounter.  At this
point they know each other exists - it's just a matter of encouraging
familiarity.  Oh, and clip their nails.

Keep us posted.
-L.

Shouting and getting riled up is a mistake.  They undoubtedly fed on
your fears.

I would let them smell and see each other (parts) through the door,
without being able to have a full face-to-face encounter.  At this
point they know each other exists - it's just a matter of encouraging
familiarity.  Oh, and clip their nails.

Keep us posted.
-L.

You might want to secure the door with other than the hook and eye closure.
They seem to be particularly ineffective as cat deterrents. My Diego took
about 5 minutes to figure out a hook and eye and be able to make his way
into the kitten room on his quest to steal their food. I had to do a bungee
cord thing from the screen door handle to an adjacent door handle to keep
him out of there.

HOWEDY Brian,

Barriers only INCREASE anxiety and challenge
the critters to conquer the OBSTACLE.

It's called Barrier Frustration Syndrome.

SEE?

"Perhaps it's a common reaction - "I've failed", "If only
I'd tried harder". But in reality, we can't be experts in
everything. I've had good luck with previous adoptees, but
not enough skill to deal with a problem situation. I'm a
tremendous computer programmer and singer, but with cat-
culture I have a lot yet to learn."

NO PROBLEMO, Brian. We'll fix all these little problems.

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
tself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition."  Ivan P. Pavlov

"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."

Despite Skinner's clear denunciation of "negative
reinforcement" (1958) NEARLY EVERY LEARNING
THEORY model involves the USE OF PUNISHMENT.
Of curse, Skinner has never to my knowledge,
demonstrated HOWE we escape the phenomenon
that an expected reward not received is experienced
as a punishment and can produce extensive and
persistent aggression (Azrin et al, 1966).

THAT MEANS we can CURE ALL Temperament And Behavior
Problems NEARLY INSTANTLY simply by DOING EXXXACTLY,
PRECISELY, OPPOSITE of HOWE we've been TAUGHT TO
MISHANDLE and ABUSE HOWER dogs by the UNIVERSITY
TRAINED behaviorists and PROFESSIONAL PET CARE
SPECIALISTS who MAKE THEIR LIVING off of PERPETUATING
their SHEER IDIOCY and IGNOING the works of Drs. Sam
Corson, Dra. Mary Cover Jones, Breland & Breland, and
other notable psychologists IGNORED and OVERLOOKED by
the ABUSERS who TEACH US to lock HOWER dogs in boxes,
bribe, choke, intimidate, and IGNORE HOWER dog's,
children's and SP-HOWESES cries of FEAR and NEED and
WITHHOLD attention, affection, so called "rewards"
and UNCONDITIONAL LOVE TRUST and RESPECT.

Pavlov Told Us So 100 Years Ago. Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last
Student Demonstrated At UofOH Oxford, That Rehabilitation
Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC.
Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management
Of Doggys.  <{) ; ~ ) >

WE CANNOT CONTINUE TO BLAME THE CRITTER OR ITS SPECIES:

                ALL Critters Only Respond In
              PREDICTABLE INNATE NORMAL NATURAL
                 INSTINCTIVE REFLEXIVE Ways;
      To Situations And Circumstances Of Their Environment
                  Which We Create For Them.

               You GET The Critter You TRAINED

                       A DOG Is A Dog;
                      As A KAT Is A KAT;
                    As A BIRDY Is A BIRDY;
                    As A CHILD IS A CHILD;
                  As A SP-HOWES Is a SP-HOWES.

"Valette 1966 is a complete trivialization of
scientific findings. It overstates the case for
reinforcement theory. No careful researcher
would contend that operant techniques CAN ANY
THING MORE than modify SHORT TERM BEHAVIOR in
a highly controlled and limited environment
with a large number of skillful experimenters.

Certainly the most elaborate studies have shown
that the withdrawal or temprary inefficiency of
the reward system is immediately followed by
CESSATION of the programmed behavior.

In fortunate contrast to this depressing paper
is the research reported by Whelan (1966) who
makes the simple but profHOWEND caveat that "It
is only through CORRECT, EFFICIENT APPLICATION
(of operant principles) that children's behavor
can be changed to the extent that they can
subsequently contribute to the REAL WORLD in
which they live."

Pavlov Told Us So 100 Years Ago. Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last
Student Demonstrated At UofOH Oxford, That Rehabilitation
Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC.
Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management
Of Doggys.  <{) ; ~ ) >

Doin the same same which has failed before will accomplish
the same same results. If the advisors who gave you their
information had SUCCESS then you wouldn't have had PROBLEMS.

Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:41:01 -0500
From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D."
<drv...@mindspring.com>
Subject: "time-out"

Dan, my own firm hatred of punishment has
recently been intensified by meeting The
Puppy Wizard, Jerry Howe, whose work with
dogs is marvelous.

There is a literature on harms caused by time
out, and perhaps you'd like to look at
http://www.dogydoright.com
George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.

"As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care."

George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice

Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.

I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.

I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:

whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.

The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).

You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially
animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.

As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine

That's IRRELEVENT. You're lookin to LAY BLAME rather
than understand the nature of the beastie and work
within their normal natural innate reflexive instinctive
behaviors.

The "AGGRESSOR" is ALWAYS the MOST FEARFUL.

They're BOTH AFRAID or they WOULDN'T FIGHT.

Coddling or showing preference to WON over the other
will make the other feel like you're ganging up on him.

No. You don't need SUGGESTIONS, that's what's got
you into this jackpot many times over, Brian. What
you need is to learn enough about apupriate handling
and behavior modification to EXXXTINGUISH their fears
and teach them to LOVE TRUST and RESPECT that you and
the other colony members are SAFE and TRUSTING and
RESPECTFUL as you DEMONSTRATE through self discipline
and apupriate actions.

http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u

  "The Methods, Principles, And Philosophy Of Behavior
                   Never Change,
   Or They'd Not Be Scientific And Could Not Obtain
     Consistent, Reliable, Fast, Effective Results
           For All Handler's And All Dogs,
           ALL OVER THE WHOLE WILD WORLD,
                NEARLY INSTANTLY,
  As Taught In Your FREE Copy Of The Puppy Wizard's
   FREE WWW Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual,"
            The Puppy Wizard. <{} ; ~ )  >

Keep them separated for a couple days till you've
had time to STUDY and implement the EFFECTIVE NON
PHYSICAL conditioning techniques taught in your
FREE copy of The Amazing Puppy Wizard's 100%
CONSISTENTLY NEARLY INSTANTLY SUCCESSFUL FREE WWW
Wits' End Dog Training Method Manual.

Just substitute the words kat kid goat birdy horse
or SP-HOWES wherever it sez DOG and adapt the technique
to the individual critter's species and you've got
the same same same same:

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywiz...@mail.com>
Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:50:51 -0400

Dear Jerry,  I paged through some of the "dog business"
and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising
from professors of behavior analysis.

I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson
(Pavlov's last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio
University.  I even got to spend a night at Sam's house.

There is no question but that you are a spiritual brother
to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom knew that the dog's
great capacity for love was the key to shaping doggie behavior.

Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are
both well documented Pavlovian techniques.  Even so humorless
a chap as B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose
"The Misbehavior of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your
methods and their deep roots in scientific (as opposed to
commercial) psychology.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
you may find my resume in Who's Who in
Science and Technology

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice

Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.

I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.

I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:

whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.

The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).

You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially
animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.

As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine

       "Linda" <llindaleedan...@msn.com wrote in message
       news:

       I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
       dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
       I do not know what started the problem but he came
       aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
       snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
       and could play with any dog. He was well socialized
       ad I took him with me everywhere.

       At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
       Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
       clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
       it was not working on his aggression problem.

       I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
       trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
       They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
       and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then
       suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not
       working as he was becoming more aggressive.

       I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph. D. 400 miles
       away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
       on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to
       use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.

       I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG
       ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE
       LEASH", ETC looking for help. We finally went to Purdue
       University Small Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he
       had fear aggression, punishment would not work, use the
       gentle leader and when out walking and he got stressed
       have the people stop until he could get in control using
       treats, and work on clicker training.

       At that point I knew more about clicker training and using
       the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he
       would not come when I called him and would run away when
       I tried to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the
       neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and women who
       hasn't trained her dog"

       I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
       were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two
       were so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one
       said I should give up on him and kill him but they would
       say "You have to realize he is dangerous and you are
       responsible for him."

       *(You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine
       DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.)

       As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
       going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
       Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
       Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.
       He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
       not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.

       The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
       I had been working for 18 months!

       Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
       from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next
       I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
       blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
       can sound and he looked at me like uhn?

       I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
       -the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
       looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
       on by.

       When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
       me like "you must be out of your mind"

       The results can make a believer!!!

       Three weeks since beginning the Wits End Training
       Manual program I walked him without the gentle leader
       in a busy shopping area with many dogs.

       He just seemed to not notice any one.

       When people talked to him or ask his name he would
       look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.

       I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
       enjoy life out in public.

       If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
       was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
       Through all this he never growled at me, guarded his
       toys or food or showed any sign of aggression with me.

       My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
       dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
       out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!!

       I know most people would have given up on him a long time
       ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ
       but only with the right approach-sound and praise.

       I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!

Don't blink yet, Blink:

"The IMBECILITY of some of the claims for operant
technique simply take the breath away. Lovas et al
(1966) report a standard contingent reward/punishment
procedure developing imitative speech in two severly
disturbed non verbal schizophrenic boys. After twenty-
six days the boys are reported to have been learning
new words with alacrity. HOWEver, when REWARDS
were moved to a delayed contingency the behavior and
learning immediately deteriorated."

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D."
<drv...@mindspring.com>

To: <pdd-aspy...@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 9:31 AM
Subject: How does diagnosis shape treatment?

How does diagnosis shape treatment?

Nearly every week I have a visit from Jerry Howe, who
publicizes himself as The Puppy Wizard. Jerry is a
master at behavioral modification of dogs.

His fundamental bedrock is the work Pavlov's last student,
the late Sam Corson, Ph.D., did at the U of Ohio (at Oxford,O).

Sam always pointed out if the dog stopped working for
you in the lab, Pavlov and he always took the dog away
from the lab, and put him in a loving home and gave him
TLC for a couple of months, and then started, very carefully,
over again.

Jerry believes that reward and constraint focused training
is immoral. I've watched him in one short session calm
impossible dogs, just about to be murdered (oops "put to
sleep") because of their "incorrigibly" violent behavior.

Sam was one of the first people to apply amphetamine to
hyperactivity (he searched the Middle West for hyperactive
dogs); but he never lost sight of the fundamental reality that
a dog is not a human, but does respond, doggily, to dog love.

You might be surprised to go to B. F. Skinner's "Cumulative
Record" and read the essay by Breland and Breland, "The
Misbehavior of Organisms".

Animals cannot be successfully trained unless the trainer
attends to the evolutionary history, the individual's
developmental history, and the environmental niche of
the animal being trained.

Yep, right there in Skinner's last and summary book.
Even with behavior mod, you must know the animal.

<snip>

       Dogs or little boys, you have to know the individual
       history, and the nature of he disorder.

       Dr. Von

       PS if you are interested in dogs, then take
       a look at Jerry's work.

       From: Linda Daniel
       To: Jerry Howe
       Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
       Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression

       Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
       to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
       save so many lives.  I know at times I was so frustrated I
       thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would
       have but many people would have.  The world just does not
       know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
       solve problems.

       We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
       -just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
       you could meet us would be great.  I drive so I would be
       happy to come to you anytime anywhere!

       We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
       right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
       scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
       would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
       to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.

       He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
       those on rollerblades!  I have always used a gentle leader
       in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
       grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!

       Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
       stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose.  He never
       pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
       a hard time getting him going--at times  I think he could
       smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.

       I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!

       I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
       walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
       a problem with other people and dogs.

       I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
       to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
       around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
       treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
       coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
       and not move until we backed away-

       - can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
       until I get his attention with treats.

       They also suggested the possibility of using drugs-prozac-
       but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
       him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
       sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
       to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
       heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.

       ----------------------------

                    ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                   _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                  ((('   (((-(((''  ((((

     |\            _.-'~~""'~`'~)
    /, ~-,__,,,.'~      ,-;;--''
   |,4) ./  '     ;    ;/'
  '-~~;'@        (   ; ;
  _.--''    _.-_..'  .;.'
 (,_..----''' (,..--''

  Meow

/),,/)
( ' ; ')
(,,)-(,,)

/),,/)
('  ; ')  kiss me
(,,)-(,,)

 /),,/)
(  ; ' )  kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)

 /),,/)
(   ; )  kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)

   /)
(  *  ) and KISS ME HERE!
(,,)-(,,)
                 The Amazing Pussy Wizard <{@); ~ } >

                   http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u

            Please DON'T BE The Amazing Pussy Wizard's PREY.

                         IT AIN'T PRETTY.

                            <{@); ~ } >

<snip>

Next time, take off the permanent door (temporarily -- so be sure to keep
it, of course) and use the hardware (door knobs and hinges) from that door
to mount the temporary screen door.  If it is fitted correctly, the door
should be impossible for a cat to open when you close it.  If it isn't that
secure, you can add a lock -- the kind that slides into "receptacle" instead
of the hook-and-eye closure.  If necessary, cut off the bottom part of the
screen door before mounting it -- enough to leave a gap of about 2" when the
door is in place.  That way, you can eventually place some tuna or another
treat on each side of a platter.  Slide the platter half-way under the door,
and the two cats will be eating from the same plate (but safely separated by
the screen).  With this type of door in place, the cats cat see and smell
each other, but there is no danger of confrontation.  It's also a good idea
to mount hooks on the top of the door.  If either cat seems agitated, you
can then drape a sheet from the hooks to temporarily block the view that
each cat has of the other.

Later, of course, you will remove the screen door and use the same door
knobs and hinges to re-install the permanent door.

MaryL

Photos -- "pictorial history" of Duffy's introduction to Holly:      >'o'<
http://tinyurl.com/8y54 (Introducing Duffy to Holly)
http://tinyurl.com/8y56 (Duffy and Holly "settle in")

Hi, Brian

I'm not expert, but since I've gone through my own rounds of cat
conflicts, I'll mention things that helped with mine - you judge if it
works for yours.

I haven't followed all your posts, but it sounds like the cats are
locked up always in the same part of the house (ie, one in a room and
the other to roam the house) If that's the case, maybe changing who
gets locked up might help. That way, they can get used to each others
smells all over the place. It may reduce the territorial assumptions
and also let them "experience" each other in small doses. In my case, I
used two different lock-up rooms, but they traded equal time between
being locked up in their room and being on lose in the house. Only one
lock-up room had a grate, so only have the time was direct contact
possible, but it meant that no one got to feel like he/she owned the
house.

During my first round of fights, I waited a long time between bad
experiences before going the next step. That worked then. During the
latest round, I was making no progress, so we tried the next step
whenever peace existed at the present step (eg supervised visit
whenever peace at barrier was exhibited).

When lock-up was going on behind the grated door, I frequently sat near
the barrier and offered treats to both cats (Kitty Kavier) and played
with toys, using ones I could poke through the barrier so both could
interact. The idea was to associate "happy times" with being together

Mine are now fight free for 2 weeks (knock on wood) and back to playing
together and everything. Hope this helps.

Becky

OTPS - I've got a killer arpa doppia now.