i must correct my above thread. the vet did of course tell me to get a diary
together not as i wrote a dairy!!

I'm kind of surprised the vet didn't do bloodwork.  Mine usually wants
to do it for virtually everything.  Some of it sounds like
hyperthyroidism but she seems too young for that as it is generally
older kitties who get it.  Or else some sort of neurological disorder
but I don't know why it would only happen every 3-5 weeks.  I wonder if
it is that hyperesthesia syndrome that I have read about here.  Maybe
you could google that.

I would want bloodwork done.

I'm sorry but what is a "fitting cat"?

Candace

Stay with the vet. Doe snot seem like a case to for newsgroup diagnosis.

Does she have these episodes after being outside?? Watch and see if
she is eating any grass (possible pesticides) or plants that she
should not be eating. The saliva from the mouth could be from
attempting to vomit up from a dry stomach. The fact that she seems
fine the rest of the time makes me think she is ingesting something or
having a toxic reaction to something.

I'm not a Vet,so please don't take what I suggest as more than just a
possibility.

Ray
WebElder
I don't "Suffer" from Insanity..I rather enjoy it!

CATTS
http://members.tripod.com/~thewebster/catts.html

Home Page
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Labyrinth/9826/meshead.html

Not unusual for a fixed cat to gain weight. Might want to talk to your vet
about a reduced calorie diet or scheduled feedings to help her lose some of
the chunk.

One of my cats has ideopathic epilepsy - they don't know why, she just has
seizures from time to time. First, I would suggest keeping her inside for a
few weeks. If this eliminates her "fits," it may well be that she's getting
into something outside that she's reacting to. Bloodwork would certainly be
a good idea either way (whether the fits stop or continue). If she's having
epileptic seizures... that may explain the foaming at the mouth, or the
urination, or the vocalising (purrs or howls), but I don't know about moving
around that much. The only time my cat has had a grand mal seizure, she was
in a carrier. She certainly thrashed around and foamed at the mouth, but as
she wasn't loose, I can't say if she was capable of movement. During her
petit mal seizures, she isn't.

HOWEDY Sarah,

No, because the folks you're askin GOT THE SAME PROBLEM.

Surgical sexual mutilation causes fear behaviors.

Critters eat to calm their nerves.

Sounds like she's having obsessive compulsive anxiety disorder.

That's a panic attack.

That's very common amongst the kitty kat lover's critters here.

INDEEDY. It IS uncontrolable unless you know
how to DECONDITION ANXIETY BEHAVIORS.

   <{#}: ~ } >                               < { ~ :{@}>
   <{#}: ~ } >          Here's HOWE:         < { ~ :{@}>
   <{#}: ~ } >                               < { ~ :{@}>
   <{#}: ~ } >  http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u < { ~ :{@}>
   <{#}: ~ } >                               < { ~ :{@}>
   <{#}: ~ } >                               < { ~ :{@}>

Right. Physically touching / comforting the kat
will reinforce his fear behaviors.

"...all the highest nervous activity, as it manifests
itself in the conditional reflex, consists of a continual
change of these three fundamental processes -- excitation,
inhibition and disinhibition," Ivan P. Pavlov.

That sounds like she's ravenously eating due to insecurity.

"It is NO WONDER that the marked changes in
deviant behavior of children can be achieved
through brief, simple educative routines with
their mothers which modify the mother's social
behaviors shaping the child (Whaler, 1966). Some
clinics have reported ELIMINATION ofthe need for
child THERAPY through changing the clinical emphasis
from clinical to parental HANDLING of the child
(Szrynski 1965).

A large number of cases improved sufficiently after
preliminary contact with parents that NO treatment
of children was required, and almost ALL cases
SHOWE a remarkably shortened period for therapy.
Quite severe cases of anorexia nervosa have been
treated in own to five months by simply REPLACING
the parents temporarily with EFFUSIVELY LOVING
SUBSTITUTES (Groen, 1966)."

Try to praise her NON PHYSICALLY in advance
of her contacting you and avoid her effort to
physically contact and praise her again till
she calms down.

Not bad as OCD'S go.

She's having anxiety / panic attacks.

Right. She's having a MENTAL ILLNESS.

Pavlov Told Us So 100 Years Ago. Sam Corson, Pavlov's Last
Student Demonstrated At UofOH Oxford, That Rehabilitation
Of Hyperactive Dogs Can Easily And Readily Be Done Using TLC.
Tender Loving Care Is At The Root Of The Scientific Management
Of Doggys.  <{) ; ~ ) >

Voraciously, ravenously, due to INSECURITY.

LeeCharlesKelley Wrote:

a completely new model of learning, which is based (in
simplest terms) on the idea that all behavior is the
result of finding a way to relieve emotional tension.

This is true not just for dogs but all animals.

You don't believe in the validity of this
particular model of learning?  You don't
think it makes sense?

Fine, I guess.

But it makes total sense to me.

And it made sense to Pavlov, too,
though not many people know this.

"Postitive emotions arising in connection
with the perfection of a skill, irrespective
of its pragmatic significance at a given
moment, serve as the reinforcement."

IOW, emotions, not outside rewards, are
what reinforces any behavior.

If you didn't let her go out she'd probably get worse.

That's probably why she's insecure and acting like that.

"Psychiatry has yet to validate a single psychiatric
condition/diagnosis as an abornality/disease, or as
anything 'neurological', 'biological', 'chemically
imbalanced' or 'genetic'." Dr. Fred A. Baughman, Neurologist.

You've surgically sexually mutilated her. Ask
your vet to check her hormone levels and if
she's NOT NORMAL tell him to PUT BACK her organs
and refund your hard earned dough..

JUST LOOK AT YOUR KAT and YOU'LL KNOW.

Tell him to look at HIS diary and put back her organs.

"FITTING" AIN'T NORMAL.

Yeah, it's called ANXIETY PANIC OCD DISORDER.

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com>
To: "Jerry Howe" <theamazingpuppywizard@mail.com>
Subject: Alleged Professors of Animal Behavior
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:50:51 -0400

Dear Jerry,  I paged through some of the "dog business"
and was astonished at the low quality of opinions arising
from professors of behavior analysis.

I had the very great privilege of meeting Sam Corson
(Pavlov's last Ph.D. student) and his dogs at Ohio
University.  I even got to spend a night at Sam's house.

There is no question but that you are a spiritual brother
to Corson and to Pavlov, both of whom knew that the dog's
great capacity for love was the key to shaping doggie behavior.

Paradoxical reward and paradoxical fixing of attention are
both well documented Pavlovian techniques.  Even so humorless
a chap as B.F. Skinner taught students like the Breland's whose
"The Misbehavior of Organisms" demonstrate the utility of your
methods and their deep roots in scientific (as opposed to
commercial) psychology.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D., F.R.S.H.
you may find my resume in Who's Who in
Science and Technology

From: "George von Hilsheimer, Ph.D." <drv...@mindspring.com
To: <d...@arcane-computing.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:38 PM
Subject: Doggy advice

Scott, Jerry Howe forwarded me the letter below.
I'm glad that you referred negatively to Jerry's
habit of CAPITALIZING and HOWEING everything.

I personally hate this habit of his. I think it is his
way of diluting his authority - IME he is a very modest
fellow. However, contrary to your sneer, he is very
competent at living with dogs.

I thought I'd list a series of actions which I found
on the list, folk asking advice on what to do about
dogs doing this and that, for example:

whining,
humping, hunching,
pacing,
self mutilation - paw licking, side sucking,
spinning,
prolonged barking, barking at shadows,
overstimulated barking,
fighting, bullying other dogs,
compulsive digging,
compulsive scratching,
compulsive chewing,
frantic behavior,
chasing light, chasing shadow,
stealing food,
digging in garbage can,
loosing house (toilet) training.
inappropriate fearfulness
aggression.

The thing that is fascinating to me, as an ethologist who
graduated from college 50 years ago and has spent all of
the intervening time working with animals (including the
human animal), is that you never see any of these behaviors
in wild dingoes, jackals, coyotes or wolves, you don't even
see these behaviors in hyenas (who aren't dog related).

You see these behaviors in human managed animals, especially
animals who live with neurotic hysterical humans.

As Sam Corson (Pavlov's last student) demonstrated for
nearly 50 years at Ohio University (Oxford, O.) there
is no treatment more useful for dogs than tender loving
care.

George von Hilsheimer, Ph. D., F. R. S. H., Diplomate,
Academy of Behavioral Medicine

       "Linda" <llindaleedan...@msn.com wrote in message
       news:

       I have been trying for the last 18 months to help my
       dog who became fear aggressive at 18 month of age.
       I do not know what started the problem but he came
       aggressive first with dogs and then began lunging and
       snapping at people. Until this time he loved everyone
       and could play with any dog. He was well socialized
       ad I took him with me everywhere.

       At 13 months he passed the Canine Good Citizens
       Test except he could let me leave him. I had used
       clicker training to teach him manners and tricks but
       it was not working on his aggression problem.

       I took him to vets who suggested a low protein diet,
       trainers who charged $800 to only make him worse.
       They tried to use a prong collar and he froze, urinated
       and tried to climb on my head to help him. they then
       suggested a shock collar I knew this approach was not
       working as he was becoming more aggressive.

       I took him to an animal behaviorist with Ph. D. 400 miles
       away who told me to "KEEP HIM SAFE" and read a book
       on the fearful canine. I tried another trainer who tried to
       use a nylon chock collar but it only made him worse.

       I read hundreds of books,"CULTURE CLASH", "DOG
       ARE FROM NEPTUNE", "THE OTHER END OF THE
       LEASH", ETC looking for help. We finally went to Purdue
       University Small Animal Behavior Clinic and they said he
       had fear aggression, punishment would not work, use the
       gentle leader and when out walking and he got stressed
       have the people stop until he could get in control using
       treats, and work on clicker training.

       At that point I knew more about clicker training and using
       the gentle leader than they did! Nothing was working--he
       would not come when I called him and would run away when
       I tried to catch him. I was afraid to walk him even in the
       neighborhood as we had become that "mean dog and women who
       hasn't trained her dog"

       I went to four trainers in both Michigan and Florida who
       were trainer/specialists in aggression and the last two
       were so afraid of him they could not approach him. No one
       said I should give up on him and kill him but they would
       say "You have to realize he is dangerous and you are
       responsible for him."

       *(You got LUCKY, Linda... They coulda got Sunshine
       DEAD on us. Damned near did... too.)

       As last resort I tried the internet again--I had had on
       going discussions with trainers from Triple Crown and Dr
       Meister with out any help-and I found the ad to Doggy Do
       Right and messaged Jerry to ask if this might help my dog.
       He said solving the aggression problem was EZ but I could
       not believe him even when I downloaded the manual.

       The name of the method was right I was at my Wits End.
       I had been working for 18 months!

       Using the can sound three time he came, and still comes
       from anywhere with the command-"comegoodboy" Next
       I tried the can when walking him--when he saw a dog three
       blocks away he went off-lunging and snapping-I used the
       can sound and he looked at me like uhn?

       I used it three more times and we got to the other dog-
       -the looked at me wagging his tail--the other person
       looked at me like why are shaking that can but just walked
       on by.

       When ever I try to explain about the sound people look at
       me like "you must be out of your mind"

       The results can make a believer!!!

       Three weeks since beginning the Wits End Training
       Manual program I walked him without the gentle leader
       in a busy shopping area with many dogs.

       He just seemed to not notice any one.

       When people talked to him or ask his name he would
       look at then and wag his tail and let then pet him.

       I still can not believe the change in him--we can now
       enjoy life out in public.

       If I had not found the Wits End method I know there
       was no hope for him and he would have hurt someone
       Through all this he never growled at me, guarded his
       toys or food or showed any sign of aggression with me.

       My goal is to get the message out to all dog lovers that
       dogs can be trained fast, easily and problems solved with
       out force, pain, food or anything but sound and praise!!!!

       I know most people would have given up on him a long time
       ago but he was and is my life. Solving the problem was EZ
       but only with the right approach-sound and praise.

       I know because I tried everything else and nothing worked!!!

       ================================

       From: Linda Daniel
       To: Jerry Howe
       Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 1:06 AM
       Subject: Re: - Re: dog aggression

       Thanks for writing--I would be happy to do almost anything
       to get your approach out to dog owners as I know it would
       save so many lives.  I know at times I was so frustrated I
       thought of giving up on Sunshine but of course I never would
       have but many people would have.  The world just does not
       know you can train a dog in just a few sessions and actually
       solve problems.

       We will be here until late April and we really have no plans-
       -just to enjoy the warmth and sun of Florida, so any time
       you could meet us would be great.  I drive so I would be
       happy to come to you anytime anywhere!

       We went to Celebration today and two little poodles got
       right into his face and he just sat there--I GOT a little
       scared but he handled it just fine.--a couple of times people
       would ask his name and want to pet him and he just went
       to them tail wagging and rolled over for them rub his tummy.

       He really just is not concerned about people passing, even
       those on rollerblades!  I have always used a gentle leader
       in public but he spent most of time rubbing his face on the
       grass--today I used his collar and he was so much happier!!

       Only problem is he will stop to smell and I can not get
       stopped soon enough to keep the leash loose.  He never
       pulled ahead of me but when he gets into smelling I have
       a hard time getting him going--at times  I think he could
       smell a blade of grass for 10 minutes.

       I can never thank you enough for giving Sunshine back!!!!!

       I wrote to Purdue and told them about him being able to
       walk in a crowd with out the /gentle leader and not having
       a problem with other people and dogs.

       I told them their advice did not work. Their advice was
       to use the gentle leader at all times and when he was
       around people or dogs to have him sit and reward with
       treats--one really good suggestions was to have people
       coming toward us stop when he got stressed or aroused
       and not move until we backed away-

       - can you just see me yelling at people to stop on the street
       until I get his attention with treats.

       They also suggested the possibility of using drugs-prozac-
       but thought he was too dangerous as the drug would make
       him less fearful and then he might attack or become more
       sure of himself and become dominate aggressive. Just had
       to share their great advice with you but I am sure you have
       heard it all--even I am becoming an expert on bad advice.

       ----------------------------------

                    ("`-''-/").___..--''"`-._
                    `6_ 6  )   `-.  (     ).`-.__.`)
                    (_Y_.)'  ._   )  `._ `. ``-..-'
                   _..`--'_..-_/ /--'_.' ,'
                  ((('   (((-(((''  ((((

     |\            _.-'~~""'~`'~)
    /, ~-,__,,,.'~      ,-;;--''
   |,4) ./  '     ;    ;/'
  '-~~;'@        (   ; ;
  _.--''    _.-_..'  .;.'
 (,_..----''' (,..--''

  Meow

/),,/)
( ' ; ')
(,,)-(,,)

/),,/)
('  ; ')  kiss me
(,,)-(,,)

 /),,/)
(  ; ' )  kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)

 /),,/)
(   ; )  kiss me here
(,,)-(,,)

   /)
(  *  ) and KISS ME HERE!
(,,)-(,,)
                 The Amazing Pussy Wizard <{@); ~ } >

                   http://www.tinyurl.com/7bl5u

            Please DON'T BE The Amazing Pussy Wizard's PREY.

                         IT AIN'T PRETTY.

                            <{@); ~ } >