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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / November 2005mother and six kittens - update
This is about the cat and kittens in the threads, fearful mother-to-be is cat really pregnant? 3 kittens born - help The six kittens are a week and a day old now. It has been an uneventful week, with me only looking in on the kittens, sometimes with a not very bright flashlight. I took two pictures of 2-day-old kittens with a flash, but wont use a flash again anytime soon. I've never approached the kittens or tried to touch them. The mother continues to stay clear of me, and comes out to eat what I leave for her only after I have left the room. A few times she has looked out of the closet at me, but never with more than her head in view. Often in the last two or three days she has been under the bed while the kittens are sleeping in the closet. But when I look in again she will be back in there with them. I would like to be able to replace the bedding in the closet, but I dont dare disturb the kittens. Tomorrow I will try preparing a box for them, with an easy step-over entrance, and placed in what might look like a safe secure place. Maybe the mother will move the kittens to the new place of her own accord; but if she doesn't, then I might try disturbing the kittens just enough to replace their bedding, and if the mother reacts by moving the kittens, maybe she will move them to the new place. Today I took two of my other cats for rabies shots, and asked my vet about when to separate the mother from the kittens and let the 'owners' take her to be spayed and then back home. He said I should start giving the kittens food after four weeks, and if they are eating well within two weeks to separate the mother from them after a total of six weeks from birth. I told him that people on the Internet have said that the kittens and mother should stay together for from eight to twelve weeks, but he said that nursing six kittens would 'weigh her down' if continued beyond six weeks. So that's how things stand. I'm going to start using a brighter flashlight to try to tell when the kittens eyes start to open, and how their eyes look. The mother continues to eat very well, and I've been giving her the equivalent of a package of Sheba or a can of Fancy feast four times a day, as well as having dry kitten chow and water there around the clock. Originally I said there were three black kittens, but actually there are three dark grey kittens instead, and the other three are black and white striped, two of them tabby-like. -cr On Mon 15 Aug 2005 08:15:02p, Calvin Rice wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:1124151302.336432.7780 @g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com): [...] > He said I should start giving the kittens food > after four weeks, and if they are eating well [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > said that nursing six kittens would 'weigh her > down' if continued beyond six weeks. [...] All said, it sounds like things are going well! I know you don't want to upset the mama, but I would go ahead and do the cleaning up stuff. You need to get the kittens used to human interaction and even if mama moves them, it won't be out of your reach. I don't understand the vet's opinion and "weighing her down" but the kittens need human touch. Someone please chime in here with an opinion on how soon, k? :) My original thought was that if mama is so feral, she will teach that behavior to the babies and maybe it is better to remove her when the kittens are eating on their own. If she doesn't let you get close to them, especially, it isn't good for her to be there. Too soon to tell yet of course!  SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields Honestly, the vet sounds like an old-fashioned out of touch sort of guy. And, Calvin, you REALLY need to start interacting with the kittens and mom as soon as possible. Like yesterday. If you don't the mom will get more scared, not less, and the kittens will adopt her attitude. There is absolutely no need to separate them. I have pictures of "kittens" trying to suckle when they are almost as big as mama. If she doesn't like it she tells them! That is nature. Sounds like this vet would be the sort to recommend bottle over breast for a human mother. > On Mon 15 Aug 2005 08:15:02p, Calvin Rice wrote in > rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:1124151302.336432.7780 [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > own. If she doesn't let you get close to them, especially, it isn't > good for her to be there. Too soon to tell yet of course! p.s. I have kept many kittens and their mothers both over the years. Separating them has never been necessary. One such critter is helping me to type as we speak. Her mom was feral, yet I assisted in her birth, and had to bottle feed the kits when mom took critically ill. Mom is still with me, still feral (although I can capture her when I need to) but the kitties are sweet as can be. And they haven't got a clue that they are related, either. > Honestly, the vet sounds like an old-fashioned out of touch sort of guy. > And, Calvin, you REALLY need to start interacting with the kittens and mom [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] >> own. If she doesn't let you get close to them, especially, it isn't >> good for her to be there. Too soon to tell yet of course! to Cheryl and Betsy: The vet is a young guy that I have been taking my cats to for four years. He is a good communicator and has always done everything exactly right, as near as I can tell. At least my cats have always been cured of what was ailing them. The place is a two-vet animal hospital, with multiple other technicians and helpers. I don't don't think race should be relevant, but in case there are cultural issues, my vet is an African American. The other vet is a middle-aged white guy. I thought that what he meant by 'weigh her down' was that nursing six kittens after age six weeks would be physically demanding because of the milk production required, but of course I'm only guessing. The mother has to be separated from the kittens because the mother is not 'mine'. She has to go back to her 'owners', who will have her spayed before taking her home. If the vet sounds out of touch or old-fashioned, it's probably more because of the way I told about him than about him as he really is. Obviously I'm a novice, but I've been so satisfied for the past four years that I continue to drive 21 miles to this vet instead of seeing other vets that are only 3 or 4 miles away. I will start making contact with the kittens now that the eye-opening time is near, or maybe already started. I thought it was desirable for the mother and kittens to have a stress-free time of it for at least the first week, for the health of the kittens. I saw tiny kittens die when I was a child, never knowing the reasons. Luckily all six of these have survived a week and a day, and I can't help but think that a stress-free first week helped. -cr Calvin, you're doing great. I'm happy that all the kittens are healthy. Even though the mom is not used to you, you have provided her a safe place for the babies, and I'm sure she knows it by now. Take care, Rhonda > I will start making contact with the kittens now that the eye-opening > time is near, or maybe already started. I thought it was desirable [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -cr Sorry to sound so stern, Calvin. I go to a lovely vet, too, and chose him over many others despite the driving distance, like you. But even though he's very experienced, he owns no cats, and never has. He is great with dogs. He is great with my cats, too. But I still know them, and cat behavior, much better than he does, so even though I respect him a lot, I always carefully weigh his advice. If it wasn't "right" for me most of the time, of course I wouldn't still be going there. But vets, and doctors, can and are often wrong. I lived through quite a trauma when my mother was dying of lung cancer and wasn't willing to take her treatment into her own hands. She glorified doctors, put them on a pedestal, instead of thinking for herself. She might have lived longer and happier if she'd done some research, or let us do it for her as we begged. So anyway, take care, and I'm sorry for the guilt trip. I'd still, however, let them be with mom longer if at all possible, because it is better for them :) > to Cheryl and Betsy: > [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > > -cr > ... I'd still, however, let them be with mom longer if at all > possible, because it is better for them :) Don't worry, I wont rigidly plan a separation exactly at six weeks, but will watch how the kittens are coming along, how well they are eating other food besides mother's milk, and how healthy and lively they seem to be. Still, I'm curious how people who disagree with this vet will argue against his statement that the cat nursing as many as six kittens after six weeks will 'weigh her down'. He seemed to feel strongly about this when he said it. Today I finally picked up a couple of the kittens, two that I could reach under the bed. The mother didn't seem to get excited about it. They have started to crawl around somewhat, though they still gravitate toward her. The mother continues to avoid me though. It will be a real breakthrough if she ever lets me touch her. -cr >> ... I'd still, however, let them be with mom longer if at all >> possible, because it is better for them :) [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > -cr I think that is huge that she didn't mind you touching the kittens. > If you don't the mom will get more scared, not less, and the > kittens will adopt her attitude. > > There is absolutely no need to separate them. My suggestion to separate kittens from mom was only based on knowing how quickly they learn from each other. I'm very happy to hear this isn't the case all of the time. Calvin, I take back what I said! Best wishes for your little family. SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields > Calvin, I take back what I said! Best wishes for your little family. There's no need to take back anything. Everyone is offering honest thoughts about what is best, and we don't know yet know exactly what will turn out to be best. Just because my vet says something doesn't mean he will have final say. I'm trying to keep an open mind and be sensitive to the cats' feelings. Unfortunately there's going to have to be a sad separation of the mother from the kittens eventually, because of the nature of the situation with the owners. Today I picked up each of the kittens, leaning over the side of the bed and reaching under. While I was doing this the mother went out from under the bed on the other side, and after a minute or two she started walking around the bed, as if to come at me from behide. Thinking she might come at me with her claws, I put the kittens back, but the whole procedure went smoothly. Yesterday I fixed up a box with no top, a folded towel in the bottom, and an easy step-over entrance on one side. The cats stayed under the bed, but I'm going to try putting the kittens in the box, hoping the mother will join them there, but I expect that she will just move them back under the bed. -cr We seem to be at an impasse now, with the next move not obvious at all. Yesterday for the first time the mother cat came out from under the bed far enough to eat while I was lying on the bed, being still of course. So I thought it would be ok to sleep on top of the bed for part of the night, just hoping it would help the cat would get used to me being there. But she didn't like me being above her and the kittens, even though it's not a saggy bed, and she had previously tolerated me being on it and leaning over the side to reach under and pick up the kittens now and then. When I got up I found that she had moved five of the kittens under the cedar chest, and probably was about to move the last one. So I put the kittens in the box already prepared for them, including the sixth one, and put the box in what seems to me like a good place. I think the mother has been getting into the box to nurse the kittens, but I don't know for sure. I haven't been able to catch her with them. On one visit to the room the kittens were sleeping contentedly, and on another visit I saw the mother running from me, and the kittens were squealing a little as if she had just left them. If the mother really is caring for the kittens in the box while I'm out of the room, then there's no problem; but if I'm causing her to neglect the kittens, then I guess I should take them out of the box and put them back under the bed with her, and not spend any more nights in the room. The kittens seem to be in great shape. They're big and plump and their eyes are open now. They will be two weeks old tomorrow, Sunday. -cr Another update: Last night when I went in the room late to leave fresh food and water and do other things, the cat had moved her kittens out of the box to a corner of the room that didn't look like a very good place to me, so I put the kittens in the original closet space that I had freshened up. But this morning she had moved the kittens back to that same corner. Later I moved the clutter out of the corner without disturbing the kittens, and the mother let them stay there, with me still wondering if she was really taking care of them. So this afternoon I used the video camera, and saw that she did go to the kittens in the corner and spend a lot of time washing and nursing them. I wont try to move them again, as the corner is not a bad place now, though the mother still hides under the bed when I come in. Not always though. One time she was confrontational, like she was daring me to bother the kittens. That may be a sign of things to come. -cr >Another update: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >-cr The main thing is to play with the kittens and get them used to people. The mother cat obviously has the situation well in hand. Are you going to post some pix of these critters or what??? Charlie > The main thing is to play with the kittens and get them used to > people. The mother cat obviously has the situation well in hand. I 've been picking up the kittens just to look them over closely and stuff. They don't seem to mind. But the mother constantly moving them makes it look like she is disturbed.. She moved them again since my last post, and I put them back in the box, but she probably has moved them again just since I left them for the night. > Are you going to post some pix of these critters or what??? I assume you saw the first ones at day two, which were not very good pictures: http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crkittens.html I haven't taken any more because of fear of a flash hurting their eyes. They're two weeks old and big and fat, and I would love to take more pictures. -cr >> The main thing is to play with the kittens and get them used to >> people. The mother cat obviously has the situation well in hand. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > >http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crkittens.html No, I missed that! They are all black cats! I will look forward to seeing more pictures. I think that mother cat may move them for reasons of sanitation or for reasons that don't involve you. I would play with them as much as they want to play. She knows you aren't going to hurt them. Lots of interaction now will mean they will like people and make good pets. Charlie >I haven't taken any more because of fear of a flash hurting >their eyes. They're two weeks old and big and fat, and I >would love to take more pictures. > >-cr > I think that mother cat may move them for reasons of sanitation or ... I was glad when she moved the kittens out of the closet the first time, because it needed cleaning in that area, which I did with water only, and replaced the bedding. The second time that she moved them out of the closet it couldn't have been because of sanitation concerns. Similarly for other places, she seems to have disdain for nice clean places that I prepare, but instead moves the kittens to the hardest to clean areas becauce they're the most remote. I've been picking up the kittens every day. They're back under the bed now, the mother having successfully trained me not to get on top of the bed for any reason. -cr > Another update: > [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > -cr Do you talk to her? > Do you talk to her? Yes. This evening another first. She came out from under the bed to eat, with the plate close to the bed and me in a chair only about three feet away. I've been closer to her than that down on her level under the bed, but with me towering over her she had never come so close in the open before. If this was outside of course she would have moved the kittens far away immediately, so I wonder how distressing it might be to her to be always moving the kittens around, and never having a 'safe' place to move them to. And the two places that seem to me to be the 'safest' are the two places that she is now most avoiding; in the closet and under the bed. She kept the kittens in the closet for eight days, and under the bed for five. It's mystifying, but if she's not distressed it's no big deal I guess. The kittens are doing some wobbly toddling now, so I expect they will be all over the room on their own soon. -cr >> Do you talk to her? > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > -cr Even well domesticated pet cats move their kittens. We had a cat growing up that moved them at least once a week. We had no choice in the matter because if we moved them back she would just move them again to where SHE wanted. You have limited spots so it will be ok. It isn't necessarily a sign of stress. >> Do you talk to her? > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >The kittens are doing some wobbly toddling now, so I expect they >will be all over the room on their own soon. She is probably moving them out to a more open area to encourage them to play and explore. She knows it's plenty safe. I don't think she is reacting to stress, Calvin. She's a proud mama, with a big, healthy litter in a safe place and plenty of food to sustain them all. I'll bet she won't mind a bit if you play with them for an hour at a time. I think you just have to look at how well this is working and realize it's a positive experience for cat and kittens. Charlie > I think you just have to look at how well this > is working and realize it's a positive experience > for cat and kittens. As long as the mother continues to eat so well and the kittens continue to look fat and healthy it seems to be working. I know I cant change the mother much, if at all, and need to concentrate on the kittens; but it's hard to force myself on the kittens when the mother reacts by moving them somewhere else; and fear of contributing to neglect of kittens bothers me too. A couple of times when moving, the mother left one or two kittens behind , maybe for a few hours. I would then put the abandoned one with the others and there would be no problem, but that is alarming. I'm trying to balance my goals and desires with those of the cat, and though we need each other we're in continuous conflict. No surprise there, I know, but at least it's all peaceful, so far, though challenging. No regrets at all. These six little lives haven't caused any harm yet, and maybe they never will if I work hard enough to avoid it. -cr >> I think you just have to look at how well this >> is working and realize it's a positive experience [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >No regrets at all. These six little lives haven't caused any harm >yet, and maybe they never will if I work hard enough to avoid it. Of course they never will. They might kill some birds, and that's about it. Some people here have strong opinions, but that's all they are. Mother animals often do make mistakes, I think. You're on top of it. I'd cuddle them and play with them. If she starts hissing at you, then I guess you should back off, but if she just keeps her distance, that doesn't seem like a problem. That way the kittens will be interested in people. Charlie > They might kill some birds, and that's about it. Speaking of such things, yes, each of my cats that I adopted as kittens went through a phase of catching birds, before age two. The one that's still a month short of two once surprised me by bringing a whole squirrel into the house just as I happened to get up at 3:00 in the morning. Not dragging it either, but holding up the whole thing in his mouth. I put them both out on the front porch, but when morning came I found the cat had brought it around the house and back in again. Until that time I thought squirrels were not catchable by cats. -cr > Mother animals often do make mistakes, I think. > You're on top of it. The mistakes may have been my fault anyway. I was the one who moved the kittens into the closet the time she failed to retrieve all of them. And the same for the time she didn't retrieve all of them from the box. -cr Great progress. The last couple of days I've been able to lie on the floor beside the bed and induce any kittens that are not involved with the mother to come over to me. Just moving my hand around is enough to get their attention. Then when I've played with them a while (they all seem to like having their heads rubbed) I'll put them back under the bed facing their mother and give them a little nudge, which sends them right back to her, and she gathers them in. She hasn't seemed to mind this at all. Then tonight when I started the same thing, she got up and went out from under the bed on the other side and jumped up on the window sill, leaving all the kittens to come over to me, which they did. After being played with a while the kittens ended up snuggled all in a pile sleeping next to me. We stayed like this a long time, and finally the mother came back under the bed and lay down. So I sent the kittens back to her one by one. I'm going to try to get some more pictures tomorrow, and post them by Friday evening. I'm not naming the kittens at this time, but I've given them all mental labels to keep their identities straight: 'black and white', 'tabby', 'black feet', 'white feet', 'white legs', and 'white bands'. There are two tabby-types and the other four are mostly black with some white here and there. They're 17 days old. -cr > Great progress. The last couple of days I've been able to lie on > the floor beside the bed and induce any kittens that are not [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > -cr They sound adorable. Mom likes you. She needs a break sometimes too. >Great progress. The last couple of days I've been able to lie on >the floor beside the bed and induce any kittens that are not [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] >two tabby-types and the other four are mostly black with some white >here and there. They're 17 days old. Excellent. The mother cat is behaving just as I thought she would... pleased as punch and glad for your interest in her offspring. You are doing an excellent job, Calvin. The kittens will grow up to be socialized and can look forward to happy futures lounging around someone's house, probably yours. I look forward to seeing the pictures. Charlie Congratulations, Calvin! Sounds like these are going to be well-socialized kittens. I'm glad the mother is letting you socialize them. Just wait -- the fun is going to start soon... Rhonda > Great progress. The last couple of days I've been able to lie on > the floor beside the bed and induce any kittens that are not > involved with the mother to come over to me. > As long as the mother continues to eat so well and > the kittens continue to look fat and healthy it seems [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the abandoned one with the others and there would be > no problem, but that is alarming. If the mother keeps moving the kittens you are messing with them way too often. The mother may abandon the nest altogether if you keep interfering. At this point leave the kittens alone - they are very small and don't need to be handled. You can start handling them at 5 weeks and older - once they are mobile and eyes open. -L. L. wrote: > If the mother keeps moving the kittens you are messing > with them way too often. The mother may abandon the > nest altogether if you keep interfering. ... Probably all cases are different, but in this case the problem was that the mother didn't like me getting on top of the bed and leaning over. After a couple of the moves I told about, she moved them back under the bed, and I continued to stay off of it, and instead just lie down next to it, which has worked out very well. -cr >L. wrote: >> If the mother keeps moving the kittens you are messing [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >-cr You're doing fine, Calvin. The results speak for themselves. Lyn is just a bitter, drunken shrew -- very sad, but not your problem. Charlie Here are new pictures, not very good because I didn't want to use a flash. If you look at the last picture the right way you can see a kitten's face. Based on these results without using a flash, it should be possible to set up enough light sources to make the next pictures without flash a lot better. http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crkittens2.html -cr > Here are new pictures, not very good because I didn't want to > use a flash. If you look at the last picture the right way you can [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -cr You now have six fuzzy toddlers running amok! Congrats!!!! > Here are new pictures, not very good because I didn't want to > use a flash. If you look at the last picture the right way you can [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -cr Ohh. They is still all wibbly wobbly. So cute! Those white toes are adorable! Rhonda > Here are new pictures, not very good because I didn't want to > use a flash. If you look at the last picture the right way you can [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -cr >Here are new pictures, not very good because I didn't want to >use a flash. If you look at the last picture the right way you can [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >-cr They look real healthy Calvin. Maybe you can raise the ambient light in the room to get better pix. It looks like you are using a pretty funky camera, too; you might be able to get a better one for about $50 these days. Charlie > It looks like you are using a pretty > funky camera, too; you might be able to get a better one > for about $50 these days. It was just a 1-hour processing disposable camera. I was on the verge of putting about $150 into a digital camera, but then the 'docking' issue arose, which stopped me cold. The extreme cheapo digital camera that I got a couple of years ago connected to the computer with a USB line going directly into the camera. But now there are 'docking' cameras available, with another piece of hardware between the camera and the computer. As soon as I can read up on it and find out why this docking may be desirable, then I'll get a digital camera and stop using film forever. -cr >> It looks like you are using a pretty >> funky camera, too; you might be able to get a better one [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >docking may be desirable, then I'll get a digital camera and stop >using film forever. Don't read, just buy. Any cheap camera will work. What possible advantages can you get from "docking"? Maybe for high-end 5.7 megapixel work, but that's not what you want for posting to web pages. You need a nice, cheap VGA digicam. Charlie > You need a nice, cheap VGA digicam. Ok, thanks; then more pictures within a couple of days. -cr A big scare today. I went in the room to take some pictures, with a digital camera this time, and one of the kittens was lying apart from the others when I looked under the bed. I picked it up and it was totally limp, out cold. I could hear its heart beat, but couldn't make it move. I put it on the bed, still limp, and tried to shake it a little, and pressed its chest a little bit a few times, but it wouldn't move at all. So I tried breathing in its nose, totally desperate, and then opened its mouth and blew into it a few times, covering its mouth and nose. Then it started moving, and continued to revive, and move around. I took these pictures after it seemed to be pretty much back to normal. http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crjeep.html Then I put it back with the mother, after it took several sips of water from the water bowl. I don't know if the mouth-to-mouth helped or not, but I didn't know anything else to do. Later I looked in again, and this kitten had left the others and was sleeping under a nearby piece of furniture So I guess it still wasn't back to normal. I stayed a long time, playing with the kittens, with the one that had the problem joining in. I left it seeming normal, and going back to the mother, but I'll keep on checking on it. What could the problem be? Did it strangle on water from the bowl, or choke on food from the mother's dish, or what? A rescue lady from whom I got a previous kitten said we can lose them fast, and I guess this demonstrates it. -cr I'd sure call a vet. He may have asperated milk or water into his tiny lungs. It sounds like you did the right thing. > A big scare today. I went in the room to take some pictures, > with a digital camera this time, and one of the kittens was [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > -cr On Mon 29 Aug 2005 04:15:18p, Calvin Rice wrote in rec.pets.cats.health+behav (news:1125346518.780127.203670 @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com): > What could the problem be? Did it strangle on water from > the bowl, or choke on food from the mother's dish, or what? > > A rescue lady from whom I got a previous kitten said we can > lose them fast, and I guess this demonstrates it. How scary Calvin! I'm so glad you were there! I don't know what that could have been, but you're right - when something happens with the little ones, it happens fast. Purrs for the lil wons gaining strength and health. SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields Yes, that sounds too scary. You might have saved his/her life! I'm glad you'll continue to check tonight. It's not a great sign if s/he is separated from the others. Is the kitten nursing normally? Good luck to you both, Rhonda > A big scare today. I went in the room to take some pictures, > with a digital camera this time, and one of the kittens was > lying apart from the others when I looked under the bed. I > picked it up and it was totally limp, out cold. > It's not a great sign if s/he is separated > from the others. Is the kitten nursing normally? Only that one time was it sleeping separate from the others. Ever since the last I told about, it has been behaving like the others. I haven't tried to determine the gender of any of them yet, but this one has always been the smallest, though not small enough to be called a runt, in my opinion. I've held and petted him/her more than the others this evening, and every time I send it back to the mother s/he jumps right in with them all. So I'm very hopeful that all is well now. -cr This morning I watched while the kitten that had the problem yesterday ate from the mother's plate after she left it. He was relly sucking on it and eating with gusto. After I finally moved it, it coughed a little, but was ok. I wonder if it choked on food yesterday. It was lying closer to the water dish after whatever happened, but that wouldn't mean much. Most of the kittens don't try to eat, but this one may have been eating for a few days, because I found evidence once, only once, that a kitten had eaten solid food. My vet told me to start giving the kittens food at four weeks, and they are three weeks and two days old now. Should I try to give the mother food where the kittens can't reach it? This is really awkward, because the mother knows where to expect her food, at the side of the bed. It's easy to watch while she eats, for the most part, but she usually leaves some for later. This morning I put her leftovers on top of the bed, hoping she will smell it and look for it, but I don't know. -cr > This morning I put her leftovers on top of the > bed, hoping she will smell it and look for it, but I don't know. Well, that was easy. She had no problem finding her leftovers on top of the bed. Here are pictures of all six, taken yesterday. The first two were with flash. I put the kittens in the box only for the picture taking. http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crkittens3.html Things are going really well now. As long as I'm lying down, the mother is very tame. This morning she ate deli turkey pieces up close while I held them with my fingers, with the kittens climbing all over me. After that she lay down and gathered the kittens up to her, purring. I think we're a happy family now. -cr > Here are pictures of all six, taken yesterday. The first two were > with flash. I put the kittens in the box only for the picture taking. > > http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crkittens3.html Calvin, they are so sweet! You've been a fine Dad. I have followed your story with interest. Faced with a pregnant cat, I must say that I could not have the kittens aborted, though I am pro-spay and neuter (and pro-choice for humans) and animal overpopulation sorely distresses me. > Things are going really well now. As long as I'm lying down, the > mother is very tame. This morning she ate deli turkey pieces > up close while I held them with my fingers, with the kittens climbing > all over me. After that she lay down and gathered the kittens up > to her, purring. I think we're a happy family now. You are indeed. I wish you could keep the mothercat. Please keep the pictures coming, I cant get enough of baby cats! > ... I wish you could keep the mothercat. ... It's going to be agony to let her go when the time comes, but at least there will be consolations for her. She will be free again, and back with the cats and people she was used to before she was suddenly trapped and brought to me. She will be spayed before she goes home though, and will have to spend one night at the vet's, hopefully sleeping most of the time. Even if she could come back to me after spaying, I don't think it would work, because if she wasn't confined, I'm sure she would run away eventually, trying to find her way back home. All that said, though, it's still going to be very sad to take her away to the vet and back to her home, without her kittens. She has some half-grown offspring from her first litter back there, but it wont be the same, even though they will be only six months old when they are re-united with her. -cr >> ... I wish you could keep the mothercat. ... > [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > -cr IMHO One day after spaying is not enough time to heal. IMO a week would be much better. > IMHO One day after spaying is not enough time to heal. > IMO a week would be much better. Does any vet keep a cat more than a day following spaying? I don't know. My only experience is with having males neutered, and the vet keeps them overnight. My only female was inherited from my mother, already spayed. If I bring the cat back home after spaying, should I keep her away from the kittens until she is returned to her original home where she is an outdoor cat? -cr > Does any vet keep a cat more than a day following spaying? I think they will keep them longer if you pay the boarding fees. > I don't know. My only experience is with having males > neutered, and the vet keeps them overnight. My only female [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > away from the kittens until she is returned to her original > home where she is an outdoor cat? I would talk to the vet about that. We had our kittens and cat-mother spayed when the kittens were about 3 mos. old. The mother and daughter had the toughest time. I wouldn't let the mother out for at least a week if you can arrange it. Our cat-mom was very sore for a few days. You also want to keep the incision area clean for awhile. The kittens still tried to nurse on mom, and she let them after a day or two. We did not separate them. Rhonda > Does any vet keep a cat more than a day following spaying? > I don't know. Depends on the health of the cat. Some have to stay longer, if they are "older", in less-than-perfect health or need more time to recuperate. You can always board the cat at the vet longer if you need to for some reason. > My only experience is with having males > neutered, and the vet keeps them overnight. My only female [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > away from the kittens until she is returned to her original > home where she is an outdoor cat? No need to. Are the kittens weaned? Be sure to wait to spay her until the kittens are weaned. -L. > > Does any vet keep a cat more than a day following spaying? > > I don't know. > > Depends on the health of the cat. Calvin. This is the ignorant bitch who told you that you had to have these kittens aborted, then told you not to touch them until they were at least five weeks old. By the way, have you handled the kittens much? I hope you have. >> > Does any vet keep a cat more than a day following spaying? >> > I don't know. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >By the way, have you handled the kittens much? >I hope you have. I think these animals, all seven of them, are leading a charmed life and know it. Just as I would have expected, the mother cat accepted and then encouraged Calvin's interest. I just don't see how anyone could have done a better job of giving the litter a good foundation. However, 99 percent of all Americans would have brought a better camera to the task. The photomat deal is pitiful, Calvin. $50 will get you a nice digital camera at WalMart. Charlie > However, 99 percent of all Americans would have brought a better > camera to the task. The photomat deal is pitiful, Calvin. $50 will > get you a nice digital camera at WalMart. I took your advice and bought a digital camera a few days ago at RadioShack. These pictures, previously posted, are all digital: http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crjeep.html http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crkittens3.html But only 2 of these pictures were taken with a flash. That is the main problem. When I don't use the flash I make the brightness and contrast better using a photolab. More pictures later today, which you might like the quality of a little better. -cr >> However, 99 percent of all Americans would have brought a better >> camera to the task. The photomat deal is pitiful, Calvin. $50 will [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >better using a photolab. More pictures later today, which you might >like the quality of a little better. They're just a little too small. VGA res is about right IMO. Those are big, healthy kittens, and they look wonderfully content. Charlie > They're just a little too small. VGA res is about right IMO. My html coding is easy to change. How's this? http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crkittens3.html I'll display pictures this size from now on, with no change to the number of pixels per image. About resolution, my camera just has three sizes - small, medium, and large. I use small because my Geocities allotment is nearly reached, and also to keep transfer time down for people who have dial-up connections, and also to maximize the number of pictures I can take at one time. A problem when flash is not used is that exposure time is automatically increased, making camera movement have more effect. I'm learning to keep the camera more still, however. -cr > > They're just a little too small. VGA res is about right IMO. > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > About resolution, my camera just has three sizes - small, medium, and > large. I use small because my Geocities allotment is nearly reached Try yahoo's free photo album web page, Calvin. There are also many others, and they don't have limits like that OR the annoying geocities popups. You could just have one site for your kitty photos. They really are cute as can be, good job!! > Try yahoo's free photo album web page, ... I tried it immediately, found Web-a-Photo, registered, created an album, uploaded 5 pictures, and was told to click on an album to view it. But nothing happens when I click on it. I'll keep trying to make it work, but in the meantime I may post some more pictures in my usual way. Your suggestion sounds great, so if the site I started with wont work, maybe another site will. -cr Here are some pictures from yesterday. Sorry I forgot to enlarge the display of them. The first three are three of my other cats, ages 8, 4, and 2. As you can see, one of them looks a lot like the mother cat. http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crkittens4.html -cr > Here are some pictures from yesterday. Sorry I forgot to > enlarge the display of them. The first three are three of my [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -cr Momma has gotten very comfortable. I think maybe the lady that loves her so much should start to come over and spend some time so that she can get used to her. I really think momma cat could be taken in as a pet. > Momma has gotten very comfortable. Yes, but I have to act in a peaceful predictable way. She lets me rub her sides and back a little bit if I'm careful not to make any wrong moves. But tonight I had to move the bed around to clean up under it, and that made her retreat to the closet, not coming out. So I gave her something to eat in there, and put the kittens in with her before leaving. I knew moving the bed would upset her, but cleaning was urgently needed. > I think maybe the lady that loves her so > much should start to come over and spend some time so > that she can get used to her. I really think momma cat could > be taken in as a pet. But unfortunately no one in that household wants an indoor cat, not even indoor/outdoor, though they like to have them around and feed them. I told earlier about their trap/spay-neuter/release program, the cat that I have being the last one trapped. I'm afraid they have been pretty callous about it, with their vet's cooperation. That's why I want to have the mother cat spayed by my vet, stay overnight there, and then probably take her back here for a few days before returning her to the 'owners'. They have done some dumb things. First, after the original abandoned cat had a feral litter, including the cat loaned to me, they had a policy of trapping and spaying only the females. Very selfish, in my opinion, sparing themselves trouble, but not the neighborhood. They thought for some reason that 'Blackie' was a male, so they didn't trap her, and she had her first litter in March. So they started over again, this time including males in the program. They caught them all, except Blackie who was hard to trap, and she became pregnant again. That's when I just happened to hear about the plan to trap and abort/spay a pregnant feral cat. I didn't know any of the above until after I got involved with trying to save the litter. My acquaintance, the son of the lady mentioned, is one of those people who is often wrong but never in doubt. When he moved back here from another town a few years ago he brought a couple of cats that he had been feeding in his yard. But instead of taking him into his new home, he just let them out of the car, expecting them to stay with him, but they ran away, no doubt trying to get back to what they considered to be home. He's the one who bungled his trap/spay-neuter/release program so badly. Of course some have said that I joined in the bungling too, by taking in the pregnant cat to avoid the abortion, so I shouldn't be too hard on him. -cr >> Momma has gotten very comfortable. > [quoted text clipped - 52 lines] > > -cr I sure wish that you wouldn't give her back. They don't sound like very good slaves :( More about the kitten who passed out. There have been two more incidents. I think he does this all the time. The second time he didn't stay out as long after I picked him up, as the first time. I don't think my mouth-to-mouth efforts saved him (I don't know its gender yet, but let me call it 'he' in this post.) but I tried the mouth-to-mouth all three times. I think probably he sleeps deeply, as if in a coma, every time. If so, is this at all normal? Last night it took me longer, much longer, to wake him up than the first time, but he showed some little signs of life other than his heartbeat: When I would open his mouth, he sometimes resisted, and a couple of times he stirred a little, then lapsed back. He was always linp, and I had to make sure I held his head up. I tried opening his eyes a little, but it didn't look like he was seeing anything. After I had kept on messing with him, maybe it was 15 minutes in all, he finally started waking up, and from then on seemed ok and normal. Any other kitten that I pick up while sleeping starts squirming and squealing immediately. This last time I had put the kittens in the box while I was cleaning the room, so I know he didn't choke or strangle on anything. He just went to sleep like some others did while they were in the box. So what is going on? Probably he sleeps this way all the time, but when I find him doing it I can't just leave him alone, thinking he might just drift away and die. -cr I think a veterinary visit is in order. Put the kittie in a shoebox with a towel, punch holes in it, and you'll be fine. He may have epilepsy, he may have a developmental problem, but you won't know until you see a vet. I think he will die if you don't. > More about the kitten who passed out. There have been two more > incidents. I think he does this all the time. The second time he [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > > -cr > I think a veterinary visit is in order. > ... > He may have epilepsy, he may have a developmental problem, > but you won't know until you see a vet. I think he will die if you don't. I talked to my vet on the phone, and he will see the kitten this afternoon. He said the fact that he is as active as the others when he is awake is a good sign. -cr That's great news. I'm curious what he thinks it is! >> I think a veterinary visit is in order. >> ... [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -cr > That's great news. I'm curious what he thinks it is! The vet checked all of the vital signs and didn't find anything. He said that seeing how active and energetic he is (and officially a male, by the way) he didn't see any need to do any further tests. He said I should just let him sleep, and not worry about it unless his waking behavior changed. He showed me a way of gently shaking him that might wake him up if the need arises. He said that the things I was doing to wake him up were not really different from nudgings he might get from the mother or other kittens, which he could sleep through normally. The vet undrstands that the other kittens are not such deep sleepers, but that fact doesn't bother him, all things considered. -cr > The vet checked all of the vital signs and didn't find anything. > He said that seeing how active and energetic he is (and [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > the mother or other kittens, which he could sleep through > normally. Our zoo had an older ferret who was a lot like your kitten. There was one time where one of the volunteers began sobbing because she thought she'd killed him (he went limp while she was holding him). We'd pick up his head, and it would drop, he was apparently not breathing, etc. Even some of the staff thought he was a goner, and picked up the phone to call the veterinarian. They put him on a towel and, 2 seconds later, he TORE off. (Inside, so he didn't get very far. :) It was amazing how deeply asleep he was. Glad to hear your boy is okay. SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/ > > That's great news. I'm curious what he thinks it is! > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > The vet undrstands that the other kittens are not such deep > sleepers, but that fact doesn't bother him, all things considered. Thanks for keeping us posted, Calvin. It has been a joy to experience these kittens with you, and to know they are in such good hands. > It has been a joy to experience these kittens with you, It's not all rosy. Since it's my first and probably only time with a newborn litter, everything is harrowing. Whatever I've kept the less clean, the kittens seem to want to go to and put their mouths on it; wherever I most wanted the kittens not to go when they were two weeks old was where the mother took them; tonight when I gave the nearly four- week old kittens more canned kitten food, two of them ate so much they had trouble walking,. Even with all the help from people here, I'm still having to make up a lot as I go. But unless some tragedy happens, it has been well worth it. -cr > tonight when I gave the nearly four- > week old kittens more canned kitten food, two of them > ate so much they had trouble walking,. Don't tell me you've never done that yourself! :) SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/ >>tonight when I gave the nearly four- >>week old kittens more canned kitten food, two of them >>ate so much they had trouble walking,. > > Don't tell me you've never done that yourself! :) Ha ha! I know that one. Rhonda >> It has been a joy to experience these kittens with you, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -cr Welcome to motherhood. That's good news. Whoever adopts him should know of this, though, don't you think? My brother had petit mal seizures for his whole childhood and nobody noticed until he started having grand mal (now called tonic-clonic) seizures as an adult. Now we look back and see all the signs! Of course cats and humans don't share all symptoms, but cats do indeed get epilepsy and narcolepsy, so it's worth archiving this information for the future. Maybe you better keep this one :) >> It has been a joy to experience these kittens with you, > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > -cr > Whoever adopts him should know of this, though, don't you think? I'm probably going to keep them all, but definitely this one. He is the only one I had named, before the sleeping issue ever came up. He was the smallest at one time. I'm sorry to hear about your brother. -cr >>Whoever adopts him should know of this, though, don't you think? > > I'm probably going to keep them all, but definitely this one. He is > the only one I had named, before the sleeping issue ever came up. > He was the smallest at one time. So...what is his name!??! :D > So...what is his name!??! Jeep -cr > > So...what is his name!??! > > Jeep Cute! What made you name him that> > > Jeep > Cute! What made you name him that? Hard to say. It just popped into my head when I was playing with him a while back when he was the smallest, but energetic and agile. Army jeeps in past wars were like that, and I just liked the sound of it. What are your cats' names? -cr > > > Jeep > > Cute! What made you name him that? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > What are your cats' names? I'd love to tell you, but I am being stalked right now. :) However--my favorite names for cats are names like "Bob" or "Linda." For some reason, those names just tickle me. > > What are your cats' names? > I'd love to tell you, but I am being stalked right now. :) Yeah, I forget that the internet can make dangerous use of personal information. > However--my favorite names for cats are names like > "Bob" or "Linda." For some reason, those names just > tickle me. Some of my others have had human-sounding names: Polly, named by my mother Buzz (lost) Willie Burdell Thug Maybe there's no human named Thug, and Buzz and Burdell are not common human names, but Polly and Willie may qualify. -cr >>>Jeep >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > -cr Mine are Luna and Dudley. :) > >>>Jeep > >> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Mine are Luna and Dudley. > :) All the most fashionable kitties have net nyms, you know. How about "moonkitty" and "spudley?" > All the most fashionable kitties have net nyms, you know. > How about "moonkitty" and "spudley?" That's hilarious. I can understand that any kind of personal information, including pet names, can increase vulnerability by being given out, but for some people who use their real names, as I do, I don't think it's going to matter much. I've used a pet name for a password in the past, but stopped doing that - definitely a bad idea. -cr > > All the most fashionable kitties have net nyms, you know. > > How about "moonkitty" and "spudley?" [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > going to matter much. I've used a pet name for a password in the past, > but stopped doing that - definitely a bad idea. I'm mostly playing, although we have had nutcases here that made it necessary for some of us to protect ourselves. I just find the idea of Cyberkitties amusing. :) My cats are: Ferdinand Callie Willie Cushla Mickey Terzi Secondo Mommy Elmer Mopsy Melon >> All the most fashionable kitties have net nyms, you know. >> How about "moonkitty" and "spudley?" [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -cr > My cats are: > Ferdinand Callie Willie Cushla Mickey Terzi Secondo Mommy Elmer > Mopsy Melon Eleven. So the ten that I will have if I keep all six of these kittens will have a precedent in this NG. Are your eleven indoor only? Three of my four are outdoor/indoor and the other one is confined in the basement (with windows and ventilation). There are potential problems no matter what I contemplate for the six new ones. Their kittenhood will be a continual joy, both indoors and when I take them outdoors supervised, but as they get older the problems of coping with them will multiply fast. If I keep them indoors my other cats probably will prefer to stay outside, away from them, even in the winter; and if I let them outdoors like the others, neighbors may complain eventually. There's no easy answer that I can see. And it's even less easy to think of letting any of them go. Don't mind my whining. This is a dilemma of my own making. -cr A question about litterboxes. I've been keeping the mother's litterbox out of the kittens' reach. I know from past experience that age six weeks is ok for starting a kitten on a litterbox, but what about four weeks? That is their age now. I'm worried about them eating litter. They seem to like snuffling around in anything they can find. I got a new litterbox for them today, the open pan variety that I always use. Should I wait a couple of more weeks before making it available to them? -cr > A question about litterboxes. I've been keeping the mother's > litterbox out of the kittens' reach. I know from past [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > -cr My 2 11-month olds were rescued at age 5-weeks last year. When I adopted them at 9-weeks, I used Worlds Best Cat Litter and SwheatScoop for their first month or so until they discovered my other cats clay clumping litter and liked that better. Worlds Best and Sweatscoop are better for kittens. SignatureCheryl "The clever cat eats cheese and breathes down rat holes with baited breath." - W.C. Fields I'd keep one around and put the old-fashioned kind of clay litter in it, or alternatively something like World's Best (corn) or Swheat scoop (wheat). I learned the hard way that if they don't have a litter box available at "just the right time" then they get into the habit of peeing where they want to. Boy, was that a hard habit to break! >A question about litterboxes. I've been keeping the mother's > litterbox out of the kittens' reach. I know from past experience [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -cr Cheryl wrote: > Worlds Best and Sweatscoop are better for kittens > alternatively something like World's Best (corn) or Swheat scoop (wheat) Thanks. I found some Swheat Scoop. -cr > Cheryl wrote: >> Worlds Best and Sweatscoop are better for kittens [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -cr Mom will box train them for you. IIRC I usually start with my bottle fed kittens around 4 - 5 weeks. As soon as I start finding presents in their cage and they are getting around well enough to get themselves in and out of a small litter box I start introducing them to it. It usually only takes a day or so for them to get the hang of it. W Calvin, I just wanted to thank you for the smiles you've given me over the last week, when I really needed some smiles. The picture updates of these sweet babies has been worth a million dollars to me. Juls SignatureTo email (remove annoying hyphens) j-u-l-i at e-c-t-dot-o-r-g > The picture updates of these sweet babies has been worth a million Then I'll post some more pictures very soon. -cr >>The picture updates of these sweet babies has been worth a million > > Then I'll post some more pictures very soon. > > -cr PLEASE do. They are FAR superior to all the pictures I've seen in the news lately. :( > >>The picture updates of these sweet babies has been worth a million > > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > PLEASE do. They are FAR superior to all the pictures I've seen in the > news lately. :( I hear that. It is going to be pretty horrific over the next months, too. We need kitten pics! > We need kitten pics! Here are 18 more pictures. It's a lot of bytes. If there are problems viewing them let me know and I'll make adjustments. http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crkittens5.html -cr > > We need kitten pics! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -cr LOL they're adorable, I love the little paws of white on a few of them, and the mother is gorgeous her fur is so shiny in those pictures. So so so sweet, thank you for sharing! > > We need kitten pics! > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -cr LOL, Calvin, you've created such a stir that you've gone over your Yahoo allotment. (It will be back up in an hour or so, but I think this shows both the popularity of your babies and the real need |
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