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Cat Forum / Health and Behavior / August 20053 kittens born - help
This is about the cat in the threads, 'fearful mother-to-be' and 'is cat really pregnant'. I just checked on the cat and there were three black kittens, with the mother in the place I had prepared for them in the closet. The kittens were groping around squealing and the mother was in her usual upright position down on all fours. That is the position the mother had always been getting into whenever I came in the room, so she may have been nursing the kittens just before I went in. But still it is alarming. Is it possible that the cat would refuse to nurse the kittens because she doesn't like the environment? And what should I do then? I would have thought that the cat would be nursing the kittens no matter what. Maybe I interrupted the birth process and there are more kittens to come, so I will stay out of the room for a while, hoping not to cause any more alarm. One thing I found from my recent videotaping is that the mother quickly understands that I have left the room, and then gets up to inspect what food I might have left. So if she had left off nursing the kittens because I came in the room, then I feel good about the chances that she went right back to it. I wasn't expecting to panic like this, but I must not do some ignorant thing that will lose any of these precious kittens. Any advice is welcome and appreciated. -cr > I just checked on the cat and there were three black kittens, > with the mother in the place I had prepared for them in the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > ignorant thing that will lose any of these precious kittens. > Any advice is welcome and appreciated. Wow, I'm sorry, I don't know the answers but I guess you were right and your orginal plan to take her in Monday would not matter anymore anyway. So you're a grandpa, sort of. Congrats! I'm sure someone will answer you soon. I've never been around newborn kittens. That would be nice if there were only 3, though, but, as you said, there may well be more to come. Candace > This is about the cat in the threads, 'fearful mother-to-be' > and 'is cat really pregnant'. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > > -cr 1. Try not to panic. 2. As long as the mother has food and water within reach, she should be fine. I have been through a couple of kitty-births and discovered that Momma-cats knows their stuff. I sincerely doubt that she would refuse to nurse the kittens "if she didn't like the environment". One of my cats had her kittens in my bedroom cupboard - she would stop nursing them if I got too close, but she was a good momma and they all did just fine. Cats are really good mothers, so try not to worry too much. As for the number of kittens - just wait a little longer.... my son's cat had 5 (under the bed) - quite a few hours apart. But they all survived. They were sooooo cute! 3. Try not to panic. Best of luck to you and well done to the Momma-cat.  SignatureCheers Cathy I went in the room again to leave food, an hour and a half after first seeing the kittens, and this time the mother was nursing them and she didn't get up on my account. So I feel much better now. I only glanced very briefly into the closet, without turning on the bedroom light, so the light was too dim to tell if more kittens had been born after the first three. I'll make another brief check in a couple of hours. It's great that the mother accepted the place prepared for her in the closet. At the moment everything is just fine. -cr Hey Calvin! Congratulations. You've got the cat ladies eating out of the palm of your hand. Now all you have to do is get some pix up on the web. Charlie > As long as the mother has food and water within reach, she > should be fine. What do you mean by "within reach"? Food and water are in bowls on the bedroom floor. I assumed the mother would leave the kittens briefly to eat and drink and use the litter box in the places where the food and water and box have been for the past ten days. I could put some small bowls of food and water in the closet area where the cat and kittens are, but I would be very hesitant to do so for fear that the mother will be upset by that and move the kittens. Is it not reasonable to expect the mother to leave the kittens now and then? Surely the mother has to leave the kittens now and then when they are born in the wild. I'm still open to advice, but I want to be exactly clear about what we are talking about, and I would want to err on the side of leaving the cat and kittens alone, with the mother not feeling threatened. -cr >> As long as the mother has food and water within reach, she >> should be fine. [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > > -cr Nearby is good enough. And she may not get up to eat much at first. I believe the placenta is nourishment for the first day. I'm not a big expert though. Hopefully more experienced will respond. Hey, congrats! I know there was a big brouhaha here, but quite honestly, that close to term, I just don't see that it was even an option. I can't honestly see how that could not be pretty dangerous. > Nearby is good enough. And she may not get up to eat much at first. I > believe the placenta is nourishment for the first day. I'm not a big expert > though. Hopefully more experienced will respond. Hey, congrats! I know > there was a big brouhaha here, but quite honestly, that close to term, I just > don't see that it was even an option. I can't honestly see how that could > not be pretty dangerous. Thank you. I'm very glad that these little lives were saved, but I'm also aware, because of the discussion here, of my responsibility to see that other cats don't lose potential homes because of these. If the total number remains three, probably I will keep them all. I bonded with them instantly, at first sight. -cr > Thank you. I'm very glad that these little lives were saved, but I'm > also > aware, because of the discussion here, of my responsibility to see > that other cats don't lose potential homes because of these. If the > total number remains three, probably I will keep them all. I bonded > with them instantly, at first sight. Awww, how sweet. Maybe the mommy cat will get tame meanwhile and you can keep her, too. Or wouldn't the owner allow that? Candace > Maybe the mommy cat will get tame meanwhile and you > can keep her, too. Or wouldn't the owner allow that? The person I've been calling the owner is the son of the lady whose home the 'feral' cats live around. He has been carrying out a trap-spay/neuter-release program for a year or more, with this particular cat being the hardest to catch. In fact she had already had one litter, causing him to have to have to catch several more cats than originally planned. Then this cat became pregnant again. I became aware of the whole thing only when he happened to mention that he really needed to catch a pregnant cat soon. But the pregnant cat was the favorite of his mother. The cat had been rubbing around her legs at feeding time, and the lady was quite attached to it. There are a few other of the already-fixed cats around, and the lady is glad to have them. But she didn't want another litter to be born, so she was in agreement with her son's effort to catch her. They call these cats feral because they are unable to pet them. But the cats hang around the yard and are fed. When I got involved, the lady agreed with my desire to save the kittens, though she hated to be parted from the cat for so long. Therefore I have planned all along for the mother cat to go back home to her, after the proper time for separation from the new kittens, which will be at least six weeks from now. The son will have the mother cat spayed before he returns it home to his mother. So, the answer to your question is no, I wont be keeping the mother cat. In the following weeks I will be trying to find out what will be the proper time to separate the mother from the kittens. All I know at this point is that it will be at least six weeks from today. -cr >> Maybe the mommy cat will get tame meanwhile and you can keep her, too. >> Or wouldn't the owner allow that? [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > -cr IMHO eight to 12 weeks would be better. MLB "mlbriggs" <mlbriggs@nospam.com> wrote in > IMHO eight to 12 weeks would be better. MLB Normally I would agree, but in this case the mother is semi-feral at best, and the longer the kittens stay with her, the harder they will be to socialize. -Kelly That's simply not true. Kittens should be with their mother and each other for 8 to 12 weeks. During that time, they will learn things cats need to know, from their mother and each other. As long as Calvin keeps petting the kittens and the mother, they will be socialized as pets.\ The mother will allow him to pet her if she is nursing her kittens. He just needs to make his approach gradual, over several weeks. Calvin, if possible, have the mother spayed and keep her in your house for a couple of weeks after she is spayed, with the kittens. Then give her over to the lady. This way, her hormones will have time to settle down. A spayed female cat is MUCH friendlier than one whose hormones are inspiring every protective instinct on behalf of herself and her kittens. I do have a lot of experience in this area. I've raised many mommas and kittens, and it is very possible to touch the kittens early, and tame the mother. Good luck, Calvin. You've got your work cut out for you--but it's going to be SOOOO fun, too! > "mlbriggs" <mlbriggs@nospam.com> wrote in >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > -Kelly I'm reading all the advice for the next few weeks, and thanks for it. The next little step for day one that I'm looking for is to see evidence that the cat has left the closet for food and water and litter box. So far I've seen no evidence of it. Obviously I don't want her to use the nursing area in the closet for a bathroom, because I wont know how to clean it up without seeming to threaten all concerned. I left fresh food and water earlier in the evening, and don't plan to go in the room again until morning. It's interesting that the cat's attitude toward me as a threat seems inconsistent. As mentioned earlier, the first time I saw her with the kittens today, she was a little separate from them in the closet, looking at me when I looked in. Then the next two times I checked she was nursing them, looking at me looking in, but remaining lying down. Then the last time, when I went in to leave fresh food and water for the night, she had the kittens gathered under her protectively, with her crouching in an upright position. All this may be perfectly normal, but I'm hoping for a peaceful routine to be established. It wont surprise me if she moves the cats from the closet to under the bed, simply because she seemed to prefer it under the bed the last few days before the birthing. I put down some soft matting under the bed where she had been, hoping that at least that might help if the moves out of the closet. -cr She'll decide when she needs to leave the nest for her food. She won't leave the nest very often the first few days. I'm sure she won't soil the nest herself, the kittens will do that later. :) Rhonda > I'm reading all the advice for the next few weeks, and thanks for it. > > The next little step for day one that I'm looking for is to see > evidence > that the cat has left the closet for food and water and litter box. So > far I've seen no evidence of it. Alright Calvin! The ladies are lining up. Jen M. thinks you are "endearing." And indeed you are. I'd like to pinch your cheek myself. It sounds to me as though you have no problems. I think you should spend as much time in that room as you can without crossing the threshold that causes momma cat to have a defensive reaction. She is sitting in that closet, nice and safe with plenty of food. She has you to thank for that. I'll bet she will allow you to handle her kittens very soon. Charlie >I'm reading all the advice for the next few weeks, and thanks for it. > [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >-cr > She is sitting in that closet, nice and safe with plenty of food. > She has you to thank for that. I'll bet she will allow you to handle > her kittens very soon. Thanks for the encouragement, but the mother continues as wary of me as ever. At this point the only thing that concerns me is the welfare of the kittens. Having seen some die when I was a child, I'm very jittery about the possibility. -cr Another question. How much time do day-old kittens spend sleeping, compared to nursing? I was under the impression that newborn kittens are being nursed nearly all the time. But except for a couple of times yesterday, I haven't seen any nursing. Whenever I look in, the kittens appear to be sleeping. I do see enough movement to think they are all still alive, however. I'm pretty sure that the mother gets into a defensive position when she hears me opening the door, and I believe I hear kitten noises as if she has stopped one or two of them from nursing in order to change her position. But usually I see a little tangle of kittens that appear to be sleeping next to her. Any thoughts about this? -cr > Another question. How much time do day-old kittens spend sleeping, > compared to nursing? I was under the impression that newborn kittens are [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > -cr Perhaps some soft music in the room would help. Or you could turn to a talk station (on low) to get her used to human sounds. As for eating, it is a stop and go thing. Newborns sleep mostly all the time. When they get a little older and the eyes open, they try to move around. Growing takes time and energy -- they need to sleep a lot -- just like human babies. Best wishes. MLB >>Another question. How much time do day-old kittens spend sleeping, >>compared to nursing? I was under the impression that newborn kittens are [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > around. Growing takes time and energy -- they need to sleep a lot -- just > like human babies. Best wishes. MLB I am CERTAINLY not any kind of expert on kittens, but I would also think that they could only nurse *so much* because their little newborn tummies are not very big! I would definitely think they would sleep a lot more than nurse. :) Pam mlbriggs wrote: > Growing takes time and energy -- they need to sleep a lot -- just > like human babies. > I would also think > that they could only nurse *so much* because their little newborn > tummies are not very big! I would definitely think they would sleep a > lot more than nurse. Thanks for the reassurance.. Maybe after a day or two I'll get over this fear that something may go wrong any minute. -cr > mlbriggs wrote: >> Growing takes time and energy -- they need to sleep a lot -- just like [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > -cr Do you have or ever plan to have kids of your own? If so, learn to relax. Best of luck with furbabes. MLB Latest recount: six. Maybe it's time for the Supreme Court to step in and stop the recounts. I wonder if the vet really would have aborted this litter if the mother had been brought in last week. It would have been a massacre. -cr Six!!! What colors? Rhonda > Latest recount: six. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -cr > What colors? Mostly black, but with at least one white foot, and at least one kitten is a grey tabby, I think. The light is dim in the closet,, even when the room light is on. I've been shining a not very bright flashlight on them, which the mother doesn't seem to mind, and that helps differentiate the individual kittens, but I don't have definitive color conclusions yet. Maybe I can say better by tomorrow. -cr > Latest recount: six. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -cr Holy Kittens! Git your digicam ready, papa! Any progress w/mamakat? > Git your digicam ready, papa! Any progress w/mamakat? I have a camera ready, but I've been hesitant to subject the mother to a flash. Any Ideas about the possible effects? > Any progress w/mamakat? We seem to be in a peaceful routine. She hasn't hissed and growled at me lately. She continues to eat very well when I'm out of the room, and use the litterbox. The last time I looked in, leaving her food this morning, she wasn't in her usual defensive position, but was lying back with the kittens nursing, which I love to see. -cr >>Git your digicam ready, papa! Any progress w/mamakat? > > I have a camera ready, but I've been hesitant to subject the > mother to a flash. Any Ideas about the possible effects? Hard to say, but I take lots of pictures of my cats and it doesnt seem to bother them at all. Is there enough light in there during the day to get some pix without flash? Pam > Hard to say, but I take lots of pictures of my cats > and it doesnt seem to bother them at all. Is there > enough light in there during the day to get some > pix without flash? Not enough light in the closet without flash. I've taken many cat pictures with a flash, but I was worried about this mother cat's reaction while protecting her kittens. I think I'll go ahead and try it, because I really want to take some pictures of these tiny kittens, and they're already two days old. -cr Calvin, I'm very glad that you let the kittens be born instead of taking mama cat in to have them aborted. I only saw that happen once, to a dog, but the bitch was never the same afterwards and would mother small toys so pitifully. :( I was also wondering... do you talk to the mama cat when you visit her? If you don't talk to her, I'd suggest that you go ahead and talk to her very quietly, and use a higher pitched voice than your usual timbre. I've read that cats like high pitched voices the best. Ü Linda : > Hard to say, but I take lots of pictures of my cats : > and it doesnt seem to bother them at all. Is there [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] : : -cr > I was also wondering... do you talk to the mama cat when you visit > her? If you don't talk to her, I'd suggest that you go ahead and talk > to her very quietly, and use a higher pitched voice than your usual > timbre. I've read that cats like high pitched voices the best. Ü I talk when I'm in the room, but I haven't been spending much time in there - only replacing food and water, clearing the litter box, sweeping up a little, and briefly looking into the closet. The mother never comes out of the closet while I'm in the room. I've sat there a while a couple of times, but then left so she could eat. I found by using a video camera that she comes out to see what food has been left just as soon as I go out and close the door. I'll try to stay longer and use a more high-pitched voice. -cr >>I was also wondering... do you talk to the mama cat when you visit >>her? If you don't talk to her, I'd suggest that you go ahead and talk [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > -cr My cat, Luna, goes BESERK when I use a very high pitched voice. She rolls over on her back and looks UBER cute! :) Here are some pictures http://www.geocities.com/ricewww/crkittens.html but they're not very good. They're cropped, not zoomed, and taken with a film camera, with flash, in a very dim closet. The camera is a lot farther from the cats than it might appear. I'm going to get a digital camera in the next day or two, and post some much better pictures, so you can at least see the kittens individually, instead of just a black blob. -cr > Here are some pictures > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > -cr She is a pretty cat. Purrs that everything goes well and that she bonds with you. MLB I think you have to watch the flash more closely in a few days, when they start cracking open their eyes. Try getting 800 speed film and see how that does. Rhonda > Not enough light in the closet without flash. I've taken > many cat pictures with a flash, but I was worried about [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > -cr Thanks for the warning. I wont use a flash any more. When do the kittens open their eyes? I mean, how long after birth do they typically open their eyes? -cr One of ours cracked his eyes open at about 5 days old. You could see just a little glint of a dark blue eye. Most were starting by 7-8 days. Their eyes generally should be open by about 2 weeks old. One of ours had a tough time -- had a crusty-like substance, maybe an infection in the womb. We got antibiotic eye drops for him and a couple of the others that looked a bit sore. Rhonda > Thanks for the warning. I wont use a flash any more. When do the > kittens [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -cr I just remembered something I used as a guideline when our kittens were developing. Try plugging their birth date into this website: http://www.purrinlot.com/kittenbirthcalendar.htm Some of the things seemed a bit off to me, like being totally weaned fairly early (this calendar was done by breeders,) but it helped me with knowing when some things should be happening like when they can hear, etc. Rhonda > I just remembered something I used as a guideline when our kittens were > developing. Try plugging their birth date into this website: > http://www.purrinlot.com/kittenbirthcalendar.htm > Some of the things seemed a bit off to me, like being totally weaned > fairly early (this calendar was done by breeders,) but it helped me with > knowing when some things should be happening like when they can hear, etc. Thanks, that's very interesting. Unfortunately, because I can't get close enough to the kittens to look for problems, all I can do is hope for the best. I'm glad to know that the eyes will start to open after about one more day. -cr Usually a week to 10 days. > Thanks for the warning. I wont use a flash any more. When do the > kittens [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > -cr > Usually a week to 10 days. Oh, ok, I won't expect the eyes to open quite so soon, but definitely no more flash for pictures. -cr >> Latest recount: six. >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Any progress w/mamakat? Six? That probably is where you learned to worry! MLB > Latest recount: six. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > -cr I hate to brweak your "pro life" bubble but aborting kittens is far from a massacre. 9 times out of 10, even if they are a few days to term, they don't even take a breath. In fact, in most pregnant-spay cases, they are usually underdeveloped and are essentially not active when the uterus is removed. As much as you want to think you are doing a good thing by bringing more homeless cats into the world, you aren't. You're now responsible for at least 6 cat deaths. Congratulations. -L. (disgusted) >-L. >(disgusted) Yes, you're disgusted with Calvin and lots of other people. You are sitting down there in Oregon in a state of perpetual disgust, bitterness and resentment. That much we all know and are freshly reminded every day. Did you tie into some weed? It would be so nice for the world as well as yourself. Think of your child. He doesn't want a fucken BITCH for a mother. It's better to have a pothead mother who is always baking stuff. Charlie L. wrote: > You're now responsible for at least 6 cat deaths. Not yet. If I keep all of these, not more than one future cat that I might have adopted will lose a potential home. Please wait to see what I do before passing final judgment. -cr > As much as you want to think you are doing a good thing by bringing > more homeless cats into the world, you aren't. You're now responsible > for at least 6 cat deaths. Congratulations. > > -L. > (disgusted) I don't think Calvin thinks he is "doing a good thing by bringing more homeless cats into the world"...he simply did what he felt was right. Just because you don't agree with it doesnt make it wrong. I am most certainly not in agreement with him re: abortion, etc. But cmon. He has posted here throughout this entire ordeal and given a lot of thought to what people have said and has basically decided to keep all of the kittens himself. Also, he was still considering bringing the mama kat in for the spay on Monday, but the kittens were born over the weekend. All I guess I am saying is that this guy is not evil incarnate. He's just a guy with beliefs (that don't match yours) and doing what he thinks is right by those beliefs. Pam Thanks Pam, but just to clarify one thing, last week I was starting to doubt that the cat really was pregnant, because having always seen her in the same position, settled upright, wherever she was, I could see no evidence of pregnancy, and had only taken the owner's word for it. The cat had been with me for a week, so I thought if she didn't have kittens before Monday, half a week later, I would assume she wasn't really pregnant, and take her to the vet for spaying. But then I used my video camera to see her walking around, and decided she probably was pregnant after all, so I dropped plans to take her to the vet on Monday; and then she had the kittens on Sunday anyway. About the late-term abortion, someone said that after the spay/abortion the cat's lack of hormones would make her not feel that an upheaval in her mothering instincts and preparations had taken place. I don't know anything about this, but in another context someone said that she still would have hormones in her body for some time after spaying, and I know that it's true that male cats still have hormones for a while after neutering. So I'm not convinced that spay/abortion during the last week before delivery would not have been a horribly violent and extremely distressing experience for the mother, aside from the killing of near full-term kittens. As I've said before, I fully believe in spaying/neutering, and all of my cats have been spayed/neutered before any breeding, except that the adult stray (abandoned) male that I adopted probably had bred before his tomcatting around was stopped. -cr > > As much as you want to think you are doing a good thing by bringing > > more homeless cats into the world, you aren't. You're now responsible [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Pam I agree totally Pam. > He's just a > > guy with beliefs (that don't match yours) and doing what he thinks is [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > I agree totally Pam. Me, too! Well said. SignatureWeb site: http://www.slywy.com/ Message board: http://www.slywy.com/phpBB2/ Journal: http://slywy.diaryland.com/ Yep, I've been there and made the same choice as Calvin. It's not an easy choice, and is not black and white. Rhonda > I don't think Calvin thinks he is "doing a good thing by bringing more > homeless cats into the world"...he simply did what he felt was right. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Pam > Yep, I've been there and made the same choice as Calvin. It's not an > easy choice, and is not black and white. It really isnt. NOthing is black and white. And that is one of the hardest things in life to learn and accept, IMO. Just because I think something is TERRIBLY wrong...doesn't really make it so. Pam > > Latest recount: six. > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > -L. > (disgusted) OK I can tell everyone straight I have nothing against abortion so I don't ahve any ideal that is being trounced on, but I can't see how it cannot be physically traumatic to spay a cat at as late a stage as this cat was at. YOu mean to say it is not a problem? Ah ha!!! You too, have fallen under the kitten spell. Same thing happened to us. We did find a home for one, but I felt like I should run an FBI check before anyone took OUR kittens! Congratulations on everything going fairly well. Take note of the date so that they get a fish-flavored birthday cake next year... Rhonda > I bonded > with them instantly, at first sight. > > -cr Congratulations! I look forward in seeing how all of you progress through this--awesome! For some reason--I always find it particularly endearing when a man is gaw- gaw over cats. Much love and success to you all! Sincerely, Jen >Ah ha!!! You too, have fallen under the kitten spell. > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> >> -cr Jen wrote: > For some reason--I always find it particularly endearing when > a man is gaw-gaw over cats. Well, I already had four cats, ages 8+, 4, 2-, and unknown. And another one lost when he was 4+. A recount shows four kittens instead of three. But that's not a final recount because the mother may have been shielding one, as she was shielding all of them once when I looked yesterday. She left the kittens to eat very well last night, and again this morning. This morning she growled and hissed at me, the giant ogre, when I looked into the closet longer than usual, trying to get a final recount. One of the four was still, while the others were squirming around. Hopefully that means nothing, because I was looking for no more than thirty seconds, but everything alarms me at this stage. -cr >>As long as the mother has food and water within reach, she >>should be fine. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > and > water and box have been for the past ten days. I apologize for my grammar - as another poster pointed out, I should have said that as long as she has food and water "nearby".... I am glad to see that both Momma and kittens seem to be doing okay and that you are feeling better about the situation. Congrats! Cheers Cathy |
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